How can I use polymorph with these extreme limitations.

[killem2]

From DM: I would say that you can only polymorph into something you have encountered or observed. As a player you can think of things that might not be in my world or you pc would not know that they even exist.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Backstory time: "I went to the magical zoo and saw ALL THE CREATURES!"

[ZeroNumerous]

From DM: I would say that you can only polymorph into something you have encountered or observed. As a player you can think of things that might not be in my world or you pc would not know that they even exist.

Easy: Make Knowledge checks.

No, seriously, make knowledge checks.

Get out the MM, MMII, MMIII, MMIV, MMV, Dragon Magic, Races of the X, Stormwrack, whatever books you think might even potentially have monsters in them... And make knowledge checks to know about them.

If he wants to play the "You might not know about it" card when you're playing someone smarter than Einstein, then run with it. Waste an entire session doing this if you can. Spend literally as much time as possible making knowledge checks on every single monster you can. For bonus points: Make individual knowledge checks for Zombie X, or Skeleton Y.

If your DM wants to be petty and pedantic, then one up him in pedantry.

[The Mentalist]

Knowledge (Depends on the creature type) lets you know enough about a creature to be considered to have observed it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ask the follow-up question "how many different animals have I seen prior to the start of the campaign?" 2-3 per level seems fairly reasonable, plus everything filed under "animals" in the original MM.

[killem2]

Problem is, I created the character already he's level 6, and I was informed of this. Its a new character. I mean I could probably change it to different type fo wizard.

Currently it is a transmuter, going into incantatrix.

[Duke of Urrel]

I would do some bargaining with your DM.

Shouldn't it help if you make a Knowledge of Nature or Knowledge of Arcana check? That would indicate that you had at least seen a drawing of a creature in a book somewhere.

Then there are the Summon Nature's Ally spells and the Summon Monster spells. Using these spells (cast by yourself or by a friendly spellcaster), you can directly observe all kinds of creatures without any danger of them attacking you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If he's introducing house rules* after you wrote your character, you can ret-con your backstory to include some sight-seeing.

*I'm assuming knowledge checks don't work by themselves

[holywhippet]

Find some spellcasters who are seasoned adventurers. Ask/pay them to cast some illusion spells showing monsters they have encountered.

[killem2]

I dunno it really turns me off to have to fight for **** like this.

At this point, I'd almost rather just ask to change to a different specialty, like conjuration or something.

[avr]

Also, every time you see a monster, write down the name. You should get a nice collection soon enough. It's annoying but unlikely to hamper you for long.

[Scow2]

I say suck it up and deal with it. Honestly, that sort of rule is perhaps the best thing to happen to Polymorph ever since 3.5 removed the disorientation effect. Seriously - just because you 'know of' a monster via knowledge check doens't mean you actually know it. And, even with restricting it to monsters you've met, it's still the most powerful spell of its level in the game.

[Deophaun]

If observation is the issue: scrying.

[bekeleven]

If observation is the issue: scrying.
Also: This means anything on a summon spell is fair game. Summon, you have 36 seconds of "ok, now open your mouth, now let me see you run over to that tree..."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Problem is, I created the character already he's level 6, and I was informed of this. Its a new character. I mean I could probably change it to different type fo wizard.
I repeat, ask your DM how many different creatures he thinks it's reasonable for you to have seen before the game began.

[Lord Vukodlak]

From DM: I would say that you can only polymorph into something you have encountered or observed. As a player you can think of things that might not be in my world or you pc would not know that they even exist.

Its perfectly reasonable you can only turn into something you have some knowledge of. How can you turn into a Wyvern if you've never seen a wyvern before I'd say you can't.

You might get the DM to as others have said look allow knowledge checks if you can make the check to identify such and such a creature you should know enough about it to duplicate its physical features in a polymorph. (as polymorph doesn't give access to magical abilities)


I say suck it up and deal with it. Honestly, that sort of rule is perhaps the best thing to happen to Polymorph ever since 3.5 removed the disorientation effect. Seriously - just because you 'know of' a monster via knowledge check doens't mean you actually know it. And, even with restricting it to monsters you've met, it's still the most powerful spell of its level in the game.
Well I've often found myself at odds with Scow2, in this case I can agree with it. The limitation isn't extreme at all, its perfectly logical and reasonable for a shapechanger to be limited to forms he's seen. My group just presumed this without any DM making a special rule.

[killem2]

Its perfectly reasonable you can only turn into something you have some knowledge of. How can you turn into a Wyvern if you've never seen a wyvern before I'd say you can't.



I would love the rule, if I was level 1 and I was able to go through and keep track of things, I would love it, but as a level 6 wizard who built this to replace a needed role in the party, it really sucks.

[Scow2]

I repeat, ask your DM how many different creatures he thinks it's reasonable for you to have seen before the game began.This is a concession I'd probably request, though, even though it's reasonable to restrict monsters to what you've seen. After all - you're level 6, so you should have had over 70 encounters by now, and some of those should have been 'exotic' monsters. However, that doesn't mean you should have access to the entire monster manual,even for monsters of CR 9 or lower.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I would love the rule, if I was level 1 and I was able to go through and keep track of things, I would love it, but as a level 6 wizard who built this to replace a needed role in the party, it really sucks.

Is the campaign only going to last for a couple levels? or is this a character you expect to use in the long term? If its the latter you'll catch up.

[killem2]

This is a concession I'd probably request, though, even though it's reasonable to restrict monsters to what you've seen. After all - you're level 6, so you should have had over 70 encounters by now, and some of those should have been 'exotic' monsters. However, that doesn't mean you should have access to the entire monster manual,even for monsters of CR 9 or lower.

Except I as a player have not and neither has my wizard.

At this moment the only thing I've seen is a troll, humans, and a cockatrice and that is only because of my backstory getting out of this trolls lair by saying I used alter self to turn into the cockatrice. :smallannoyed:

Which leaves me in a bind. I'm asking my DM if I know of ANY thing at this point or what, because It would be very unreasonable to say a level 6 wizard only knowns what he's seen but then leave them with 3 things, when the player was not prepared to know this limitation head of time.


Is the campaign only going to last for a couple levels? or is this a character you expect to use in the long term? If its the latter you'll catch up.

It's long term, probably until a TPK. could even go epic if we live that long.

[holywhippet]

Which leaves me in a bind. I'm asking my DM if I know of ANY thing at this point or what, because It would be very unreasonable to say a level 6 wizard only knowns what he's seen but then leave them with 3 things, when the player was not prepared to know this limitation head of time.


Do you have any of the summon monster spells? You could justify changing into anything you can summon.

[killem2]

Do you have any of the summon monster spells? You could justify changing into anything you can summon.

I don't have them, I basically wanted to be a transmutation expert and use polymorph to accent the party if they needed some heavy hitting because I already currently do heavy hitting (dungeon crasher) and due to other people permanently leaving wizard role is needed (very much requested by the dm even).

I do know that his world is very very heavily set in a dragon theme. So much so, he gave out extra skill points in arcana, or granted free draconic at times to characters, to sometimes not even ahving to roll skill checks for others.

So I asked if I can at least have 1 monster per level so far, and know all draconic monsters due to the worlds very strict history remembrance of the dragon wars.

[Con_Brio1993]

I think the limitation is reasonable, provided your DM is reasonable about working with you to create a list of varied list of creatures that you've seen before or read about before.

[Gavinfoxx]

Take 10 on Knowledge checks, with Collector of Stories skill trick. Remember you only need to know 10+HD of the creature to have heard about the creature in the first place. Each time you beat the DC by 5, you know more. Optimize this. Say you gained all your knowledge by observing them, and this happened prior to game start.

[Enguebert]

As a DM, i can understand why he want to limit the spell but i have no strict rules

I would allow everything the party has encounter and everything that is common to the world.

And it is normal that a wizard that learn this spell will learn about some "exceptional" creature just for the deplacement or special quality
- a flying creature that can still cast
- a creature that can swim/breath underwater
- special body (ooze)

The list of exceptional/not encounter creature should be limited by intelligence/knowledge creature (for example 1 exceptionnal creature per knowledge point)

But i would probably refuse any creature i never heard of it before :smallsmile:

[AntiTrust]

Easy: Make Knowledge checks.

No, seriously, make knowledge checks.

Get out the MM, MMII, MMIII, MMIV, MMV, Dragon Magic, Races of the X, Stormwrack, whatever books you think might even potentially have monsters in them... And make knowledge checks to know about them.

If he wants to play the "You might not know about it" card when you're playing someone smarter than Einstein, then run with it. Waste an entire session doing this if you can. Spend literally as much time as possible making knowledge checks on every single monster you can. For bonus points: Make individual knowledge checks for Zombie X, or Skeleton Y.

If your DM wants to be petty and pedantic, then one up him in pedantry.

So your solution is to grind the game to a halt till he gets what he wants? Can't say your fellow players or the dm will appreciate that

[Crake]

Also, every time you see a monster, write down the name. You should get a nice collection soon enough. It's annoying but unlikely to hamper you for long.

I actually did this because my DM put a similar restriction on polymorph. I had quite a decent collection of forms before that wizard was damned and I decided to re-roll instead of dealing with it.

[ericgrau]

If he wants to play the "You might not know about it" card when you're playing someone smarter than Einstein, then run with it. Waste an entire session doing this if you can. Spend literally as much time as possible making knowledge checks on every single monster you can. For bonus points: Make individual knowledge checks for Zombie X, or Skeleton Y.

If your DM wants to be petty and pedantic, then one up him in pedantry.
So the solution is to get revenge by completely ruining the game for every player, no slight shall go without nuclear response!

I like that this came up early because it demonstrates the worst way to handle a game conflict. Instead tell the DM you don't like it, then if that fails find ways around it. Normally there's a threat to kick someone or leave in there followed by doing so if the situation doesn't improve, but I don't think this problem is serious enough to warrant such a thing.

In fact polymorph tends to slow down the game tremendously with excessive bookkeeping. This was the reason why it got banned in Living Greyhawk rather than, say for example, brokenness. It really is an incredibly amount of numbers. The way around this is to have every one of your forms figured out ahead of time and thus a limited number of forms. So try to discuss the matter via e-mail, get some forms confirmed, and fully stat them out on paper before game begins to save as much time as possible and not waste game session time. You usually only need a handful of your favorite forms anyway.

[Ruethgar]

Lucid Dreaming and conjure up plant associated any creature, there, you've seen it.

[Seffbasilisk]

Knowledge Checks.

Find a library, or a well-versed Bard.


Relax. It's not so bad. My DM had my Warshaper restricted to turning into what he could physically hold. Grappled into a pin and held for three rounds, or helpless.

[Scow2]

Knowledge Checks.

Find a library, or a well-versed Bard.

Just because you've heard of a monster or know of it doesn't mean you actually know what it is. Some things require hands-on experience, so Bards and Knowledge Checks don't necessarily work for this sort of thing.

The only problem with this rule is that it's kicking in for a mid-level character, who, by all rights, should know at least a few monstrous forms.

[Seffbasilisk]

Just because you've heard of a monster or know of it doesn't mean you actually know what it is. Some things require hands-on experience, so Bards and Knowledge Checks don't necessarily work for this sort of thing.

The only problem with this rule is that it's kicking in for a mid-level character, who, by all rights, should know at least a few monstrous forms.

Summon Monster then, but that's also open to the same DM fiat interpretations.

There's making a diplomacy check with the DM, making an intimidate check, or making a series of bluff/innuendo checks.

CHA should never be a dump stat IRL.

[zlefin]

the question is how reasonable your dm is willing to be about your starting list of monsters. It'd also depend no your characters background.
A wizard university could easily have a sizeable collection of specimens; as well as arranging safaris. Zoos and menageries do exist, and are bound to have some interesting things as well. It wouldn't be surprising for a transmuter wizard to avail himself of both such opportunities during his education, which could easily gather quite a sizeable list of creatures.
Depending on the number of level 7+ wizards, it's quite possible a large wizards guild or university would keep a supply of creatures that are nice to polymorph to for its members.


You could also use the Scrying spell to observe a creature if you get a link to it. You could hire rangers to go obtain a bit of a creatures hair or something and use that to scry.

[Ghost Nappa]

Summon Monster then, but that's also open to the same DM fiat interpretations.

There's making a diplomacy check with the DM, making an intimidate check, or making a series of bluff/innuendo checks.

CHA should never be a dump stat IRL.

It's less that I have CHA as a dump stat, and more that there's about 100 debuffs and curses dragging it down pitifully to 1.

OP: Just ask the DM. It doesn't even have to be in-session if you don't want to slow things to a crawl. The houserule makes sense to me so I won't fight it, but you should very much ask what you are actually going to be limited to so you don't accidentally slow the game to a crawl.

[killem2]

If my in game lexicon of available monsters turns out to be crap, what are the other prime methods of melee or just damage stand ins for transmutation, because honestly I didn't even both searching it out because I was just going to use polymorph, :smallbiggrin:.

[TrollCapAmerica]

If my in game lexicon of available monsters turns out to be crap, what are the other prime methods of melee or just damage stand ins for transmutation, because honestly I didn't even both searching it out because I was just going to use polymorph, :smallbiggrin:.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1174396

Honestly this shouldnt be a big deal for a wizard though

If your creative enough divining up as many monsters as you could conceive of shouldnt be a huge deal.There are multiple ways to learn of a creatures existence and observe them.After that your a Transmuter thats at the level where they really start to rock

[killem2]

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1174396

Honestly this shouldnt be a big deal for a wizard though

If your creative enough divining up as many monsters as you could conceive of shouldnt be a huge deal.There are multiple ways to learn of a creatures existence and observe them.After that your a Transmuter thats at the level where they really start to rock

Thanks, I'll take a look at that when I get home, wizards is blocked at work :(.

[killem2]

Here is what I got back so far.

I have you from the west coast - I would say by 6th level – you would have seen:
1. All the basic animals in the MM (you have seen southern bears, but not polar bears)

2. All of the races in the PHB

3. all of the vermin in the MM

4. From your location you would have seen several marsh or swamp based creatures (just ask if they are in my world you have).

5. Orcs

6. Goblins

7. Kobolds

8. Gnolls

9. Trolls

10. Ogres

11. water elementals

12. earth elementals

13. young Black and adult Red dragons

14. the rare cockatrice

15. Because of the world, the draconic races (other then dragons) you would know.


As for the rest of the true dragon races because of the world – just let me know what your arcane skill is and I will advise if what you have read in the history is enough and when I give you an age (like above young black dragon – and Adult red dragons you know that age level and below).

Any others you would want just ask… I will ok, 12 additional (2 per level).

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's the polymorph handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10479

Ask about...

Dire animals

Hydras

Griffons

Types of Trolls

Will-O-Wisps

Cloaker

etc. etc. -- good forms from that list, okay? =D

[killem2]

Here's the polymorph handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10479

Ask about...

Dire animals

Hydras

Griffons

Types of Trolls

Will-O-Wisps

Cloaker

etc. etc. -- good forms from that list, okay? =D

Thanks I will take a look at all these :).

[killem2]

An Update:

Well, after a few days, this has opened up a can of worms trying to pin down what is available and what isn't, and a lot of book keeping for both of us.

So he just said, use any monster allowed by the spell from all monster manuals, and anything out of monster manuals let him know ahead of time.

Thanks for the help everyone :).

[Lightlawbliss]

Got to love when people decide their rule isn't worth the effort.

[killem2]

Well, we both really liked the idea. I did not at first because I thought he was going to leave me with nothing, but I think it would be a great implementation from the beginning.

It's still pretty restricted, (there are a lot of dark sun animals that are really great polymorph targets) but I'm not really that concerned over all.

He only wants to make sure the chosen target is something of his world is all. I don't think he cares one bit about power levels.