1 Level Binder Dip for a Druid?

[jaydubs]

I'm playing the party face in an RP heavy campaign. I'm strongly considering taking a level in binder for Naberius, both for the diplomacy/bluff options and because we don't have a cleric (so no one to heal ability drain). But, "the best dip for druids is moar druid" seems to be a common opinion, so I'm looking for a little feedback before I take the dive.

Is Naberius as useful as it looks? How much do I lose from that 1 level? Or for that matter, would a longer than 1-level dip be worth it? Any better break points?

For a little more context, the other characters in the campaign aren't particularly optimized. So trading pure power for utility, versatility, and/or RP potential would not be a bad thing.

[eggynack]

I don't like dips on a druid much, but druids can kinda pull off the face thing without dipping. They have diplomacy as a class skill, charisma as a potential tertiary stat (It's either that or intelligence. I prefer intelligence, but charisma can do the job), wild empathy to incentivize pushing the whole diplomacy thing, and a couple of ACF's that help out with it. They also have a few buff spells that give minor bonuses, but those aren't really part of the build, so much as they are a day to day thing. Most of the ACF's you're going to want on a standard druid come from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Skilled City-Dweller lets you trade out survival for sense motive, which nets you a synergy bonus, and Voice of the City gives you speak language as a class skill, as well as the ability to sometimes talk to folks with different languages, which lets you use your diplomacy more broadly. That's generally how I would pull off a druid who wants to take on the role of party face.

[Akal Saris]

Well, if you take the feat to increase your binding level, you can also bind the vestige that lets you form full plate around yourself for free; which is an easy way to get armor in wildshape form on a moment's notice.

I'd say that it's perfectly fine as a dip if other players aren't optimizing to the hilt. In fact, the few benefits from Naberius or other bindings might be so noticeable that it will seem to the rest of the table to have been a stronger choice than 'moar druid', since the penalties (worse animal, worse wildshape, slower spells) are less easily seen.

1 level and the feat is probably the best breaking point (after 0 :P), but if you like the 3rd level vestiges, then you could probably take a few more levels for them.

[Ramza00]

Well, if you take the feat to increase your binding level, you can also bind the vestige that lets you form full plate around yourself for free; which is an easy way to get armor in wildshape form on a moment's notice.

Not sure if you want to wear full plate while being a druid ;)


A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

[Ramza00]

Note best way to defeat a evil druid ever.

Disquise normal metal shield as macguffin with polymorph any object.

Let said villian pick up the pretend macguffin.

Cast dispel magic on pretend macguffin returning the item back as a metal shield.

Laugh while the villian is now a commoner with magic items for 24 hours.

[Con_Brio1993]

Naberius is a good way to get your DM to hit you with his collection of books.

IIRC Naberious lets you take 10 on Diplomacy rolls in any situation. Including combat with no penalty. Pump up Diplomacy and you can talk your way out of any combat pretty much all the time as long as you speak the language of the opposing creature.

[jaydubs]

Thanks for the input everyone. The fact I've gotten both "binder definitely weakens you" and "the DM will hate you for using Naberius" is quite interesting though... XD

[limejuicepowder]

Naberius is a good way to get your DM to hit you with his collection of books.

IIRC Naberious lets you take 10 on Diplomacy rolls in any situation. Including combat with no penalty. Pump up Diplomacy and you can talk your way out of any combat pretty much all the time as long as you speak the language of the opposing creature.

"take 10 even when i usually can't" doesn't allow you to use diplomacy when you normally can't. Diplomacy is also the most borked skill, and this situation has a lot more to do with that than naberius if it is actually RAW. Lastly, if a DM allows this (without applying ghastly penalties) they deserve to have their game screwed up.

[gomipile]

"take 10 even when i usually can't" doesn't allow you to use diplomacy when you normally can't. Diplomacy is also the most borked skill, and this situation has a lot more to do with that than naberius if it is actually RAW. Lastly, if a DM allows this (without applying ghastly penalties) they deserve to have their game screwed up.

There is already a built in DC increase for Diplomacy during combat in the rules. It is called a hostile initial attitude. If "is currently attacking me and my friends" doesn't count as "Hostile: will take risks to hurt you," I don't know what does.

[Yogibear41]

Laugh while the villian is now a commoner with magic items for 24 hours.

Nope, they would be an expert 3/4 bab and d8 hit die still :smallsmile:

[Crake]

Note best way to defeat a evil druid ever.

Disquise normal metal shield as macguffin with polymorph any object.

Let said villian pick up the pretend macguffin.

Cast dispel magic on pretend macguffin returning the item back as a metal shield.

Laugh while the villian is now a commoner with magic items for 24 hours.

except he needs to actually WEAR it, not just carry it. If you did the same thing but instead transformed it into a wooden shield, and then had him put it on and then dispel it, that would work

[Con_Brio1993]

There is already a built in DC increase for Diplomacy during combat in the rules. It is called a hostile initial attitude. If "is currently attacking me and my friends" doesn't count as "Hostile: will take risks to hurt you," I don't know what does.

Yes, but Naberious RAW lets you always take 10 without penalty I'm pretty sure. Specifically, it lets you take 10 to make a rushed diplomacy check at no penalty meaning you can now use it in combat. With a high enough modifier you can take an enemy from hostile to friendly automatically.

[limejuicepowder]

Yes, but Naberious RAW lets you always take 10 without penalty I'm pretty sure. Specifically, it lets you take 10 to make a rushed diplomacy check at no penalty meaning you can now use it in combat. With a high enough modifier you can take an enemy from hostile to friendly automatically.

The no penalty refers to the rush; it doesn't remove the penalty from other factors. Using diplomacy in combat should be situational impossible (if the opponent is raging, for example), and always extremely difficult.......to the tune of -20 or more. Like I said, this situation has more to do with the brokeness of diplomacy than nebarius.

[eggynack]

Nope, they would be an expert 3/4 bab and d8 hit die still :smallsmile:
It's actually significantly better than that. You only lose spells, spell likes, and supernaturals, and that just covers casting, wild shape, and a thousand faces. You keep the animal companion, as well as all the rest of the druid's minor abilities.

[Chronos]

You should never actually make use of Diplomacy, at all, unless your DM has a good set of houserules for it (which is very rare). And Druid is particularly ill-suited to diplomacy, because you'll probably want to spend nearly all of your time in wildshape, and even if you have some means of talking, trying to negotiate with a bear is probably a pretty hefty circumstance penalty.

That said, while a dip in almost anything will decrease a druid's power, they can afford it. Even with the dip, you're still likely to be more powerful than the party's fighter or rogue, so it's not really a problem.

[eggynack]

You should never actually make use of Diplomacy, at all, unless your DM has a good set of houserules for it (which is very rare). And Druid is particularly ill-suited to diplomacy, because you'll probably want to spend nearly all of your time in wildshape, and even if you have some means of talking, trying to negotiate with a bear is probably a pretty hefty circumstance penalty.
Well, either that or a bonus. Half-orc substitution levels let you use strength in wild empathy checks, which makes being a bear pretty good for that kinda diplomacy. Wild empathy gives some sort of incentive for a druid to push diplomacy a little, even if they maybe shouldn't go all out with it. That's just one of the things that give the druid an edge in a face role, and I listed some others in my first post. They're not the best at it, so they should probably cede the role to anyone who wants it, but in a party without a friendly talking guy, the druid can easily become that friendly talking guy. The wild shape thing is certainly an issue, but it's not big enough to make me think that diplomacy on a druid is a terrible idea.

[Chronos]

Yeah, but how often do you need to diplomance an animal, anyway? If someone's talking about "filling the diplomacy role" or the like in their party, they probably mean talking to humanoids.

[eggynack]

Yeah, but how often do you need to diplomance an animal, anyway? If someone's talking about "filling the diplomacy role" or the like in their party, they probably mean talking to humanoids.
That's somewhat true, though in that case you can trade out wild empathy for voice of the city. Between speak language as a class skill, which is separately good for talking to summoned creatures with special abilities (I actually have a list somewhere), and the various DC's to talk to people who you can't cover with the languages you get, your facing ability can cover a pretty wide breadth of folks when you're not a bear.

Bards are definitely better at this stuff, because they get everything I've listed (outside of the DC's for talking to people you can't normally talk to) and then some, but a druid can pull it off reasonably well, and they can do so without too much resource investment. Druids aren't exactly running around with infinite skill points, and they have a great variety of stuff to spend it on, but skill points are among the lowest order build resources, so it's generally fine. The minute you start pushing real resources towards this, like feats, or class levels as the OP mentioned, you've probably gone too far. However, my suggestions are pretty far from hitting that mark, and can get you pretty far on the path to diplomacy power.