[PF]Optimizing a Wildshape Druid?

[Thrair]

For a Human Druid, how would you go about optimizing for mauling the crap out of targets with Wildshape? Note: This assumes straight druid. Not dipping into monk, for example.

My current core build so far is this:

Racial: Improved Unarmed Strike
1: Improved Grapple
3:
5: Natural Spell
7: Power Attack
9: Greater Grapple
11: Vital Strike
13: Combat Reflexes
15: Improved Vital Strike
17:
19:

Basic gist of the build is Wildshape into a Huge, grapple the target, then maul the crap out of it. Using greater grapple to move action maintain/natural attack, followed by a Standard to Vital Strike with a nasty natural (like a bite), preferably enhancing that natural attack with Strong Jaw.

Combat Reflexes is for taking advantage of the Huge-size reach, as well as Grab (yay free grapple) attacks the form might grant.

But what would you recommend for the remaining feats? I think I'll need Heavy Armor proficiency, for the armor bonus from Wild Armor (Dragonhide, Stoneplate, Ironwood, etc) and will probably want to shift the feat order around a bit to get it around level 10 or so.

I'm a little unsure on the remaining feats, though.


*EDIT*

Possible feats that have been suggested so far:
-Toughness
-Powerful Shape
-Planar Wildshape (Leaning heavily towards this one).

[Thrair]

No advice for this, then? I'm unsure of the final two feats. Toughness as one is an option, for sure. But that still leaves a floating feat.

[Karoht]

I would personally drop Vital Strike. You can't Vital Strike on a charge, and it is pretty easy to get acces to pounce through a form, making Vital Strike pretty useless. One big attack is not as awesome as all of your natural attacks.

Planar Wild Shape and Powerful Shape
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/general-feats/planar-wild-shape
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/general-feats/powerful-shape

Things that no druid build should be without if they plan on doing anything in melee.

Take Powerful Shape as soon as you are able. Use Enlarge Person + Strong Jaw on yourself. Get into the biggest size creature you can (preferably with pounce), use these spells, hit like a bus. With everything. All the time. Seriously, your weapons hit for 4 size categories bigger? That is a huge thing. Oh, and you get Smite Evil/Good (depending on your alignment) once per day. So that hit is going to bipass most DR. Stack on your other buffs and just crush things to death.

Cast those on your animal companion as well, just for fun. Spell Link + Improved Share Spells helps save slots and action economy. Yes, the Enlarge Person will work on your Animal Companion thanks to Spell Link. Happy hunting.

I prefer the Saurian Shaman Archetype. Because nothing says awesome in quite the same was as "Dinomancer."

[Laniius]

Take Powerful Shape as soon as you are able. Use Enlarge Person + Strong Jaw on yourself. Get into the biggest size creature you can (preferably with pounce), use these spells, hit like a bus. With everything. All the time. Seriously, your weapons hit for 4 size categories bigger? That is a huge thing. Oh, and you get Smite Evil/Good (depending on your alignment) once per day. So that hit is going to bipass most DR. Stack on your other buffs and just crush things to death.

Powerful Shape is definitely useful, but note

"Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample)".

Nowhere in that does it mention your damage is calculated at one size category larger. Also, Enlarge Person is not a druid spell (it can be cast on you by someone else, but you don't get it). So you'd get 3 size categories, max.

And I'm not even certain that Strong Jaw and Enlarge Person would stack, as I seem to recall stacking with polymorph effects and transmutation effects were convoluted.

[Thrair]

Yah. Powerful Shape is nifty. And it's an option. But it doesn't increase damage. I think it's got a Mythic variant that DOES increase damage, but the standard version does not.

As for Enlarge Person:

This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.

A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target's speed.

...

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Doesn't stack with Wildshaping into a Huge creature. Although Strong Jaw would stack, as Strong Jaw doesn't actually increase your size. It just makes the selected natural attack (one at a time, unfortunately), deal damage as if one size larger. Or just a flat doubling if the weapon is already at Colossal size.


As for the Vital Strike chain, it's normally a trap, I know. But it's actually quite effective on a Druid, as they have lots of damage dice from Huge-size natural attacks.

And again, this build takes advantage of Greater Grapple to let me get a maintain/attack and a vital strike nom-nom-nom in the same round. It's not a pure max damage/round build. It's intended partially as a control build. Huge-size reach plus grab = free attack/grapple on AoO, followed by mauling them to death on subsequent rounds.

Could I potentially do more damage/round with Pounce? Yes. But the Grapple/Vital Strike build allows me to do nearly as much damage (at the cost of a few feats, I'll grant) while also immobilizing a target so the squishies (who by late game are much more effective in dealing damage/winning encounters) don't need to worry about it.

My primary role isn't damage dealer. That's just a nice perk.

[Thrair]

Oh, and while I'm thinking I'll definitely take Planar Wild Shape, I'm a little hazy on the Spell Resistance it grants. It's stated to be equal to CR+5. I THINK a PC has a CR equal to their level, but I'm not certain.

[Karoht]

Powerful Shape is definitely useful, but note
"Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample)".

Nowhere in that does it mention your damage is calculated at one size category larger.Ah, that it doesn't. I was overzealous.
To be clear though, that does make it harder for enemies to use such attacks against you, and gives you bonuses for using them against your enemies.


Also, Enlarge Person is not a druid spell (it can be cast on you by someone else, but you don't get it). So you'd get 3 size categories, max.
And I'm not even certain that Strong Jaw and Enlarge Person would stack, as I seem to recall stacking with polymorph effects and transmutation effects were convoluted.Enlarge Person/Animal Growth is the enlarging effect (and easy enough to get from another party member or a wand if necessary), Strong Jaw just treats your weapons larger. Pretty sure they stack. However, at 5th level casting you get Animal Growth, which will also do the job for you and your companion in place of Enlarge Person.
And either way, that is still 3 size categories on top of a Huge creature size. You hit as a Colossal X2 at that point. Now sure, Vital Strike does make that sound pretty good, but if you already have Pounce, you will almost never use Vital Strike.

[Thrair]

Unfortunately, I'm fairly sure Wild Shape counts as a magical size-increasing effect, and thus does not stack with Enlarge Person or Animal Growth.

Wild Shape is a Supernatural ability that functions as Beast Shape 1-3, Plant Shape 1-3, or Elemental Body 1-4.

Supernatural abilities are magical attacks, defenses, and qualities. These abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize. The supernatural ability's description includes information on how it is used and its effects.


Even if it doesn't count as a "magical size-changing effect", there's a bigger nail in the coffin of stacking Wild Shape and Enlarge Person/Animal Growth.

From the description of the Polymorph subschool, bolding the really important bit:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

I wish it all stacked. It'd be awesome. But it's arguably a little overpowered (though you could argue melee classes need the boost), and seems to be forbidden by RAW, and probably RAI.



Anyways, thanks for the advice so far. I'm not trying to harp on you or anything. I appreciate the time you're taking to help. On that note, do you know what a PC's CR is equal to? The description for the Celestial/Fiendish Template that Planar Wild Shape uses is that Spell Resistance is equal to CR+5 (and the template increases CR by one for anything with more than 5 HD).

[Andvare]

IIRC, any PC CR is character level -1.
(not including any additions from race)

[Thrair]

IIRC, any PC CR is character level -1.
(not including any additions from race)

Thanks. Trying to decide if Heavy Armor proficiency is something I should rush as quickly as possible for Wild Full-Plate, or hold off until mid-high levels.

[Thrair]

Ok, I think my final feat build is this:

Flat Druid, 20
Human

Racial: Improved Unarmed Strike
1: Improved Grapple
3: Power Attack
5: Natural Spell
7: Combat Reflexes
9: Greater Grapple
11: Vital Strike
13: Planar Wild Shape
15: Improved Vital Strike
17: Heavy Armor Proficiency
19: Powerful Shape

Traits (If allowed:
Bred for War (+1 on Intimidate and CMB)
Reactionary (+2 Initiative) / Fluff Trait

Should be a decent Skirmisher as well as a good peeler for the squishies at higher levels.

Wild Shape when in Grappling mode will probably be a Behemoth Hippopotamus for the Grab/Trample and 4d8 Primary Bite., which will be 8d8 with Strong Jaw.

At mid levels, the Wildshape will be a Dire Tiger for the Grab/Pounce. (And if avoiding a Huge Size for whatever reason, eventually Rake).

Grapple CMB will eventually be at least +30 before normal strength modifiers, equipment, or the trait. (+15 BAB, +4 Improved/Greater Grapple, +2 Size, +2 Powerful Shape, +4 Grab special, +3 Wild Shape Strength)

Thanks for the advice guys. Looking forward to playing this one out through the levels.

[Karoht]

I would prioritize Powerful Shape much earlier, as it will help with your Grapples and other manouvers, at a point where Grappling/manouvers will be more viable.