Warblade "Tank"

[tricktroller]

Ok everyone so I am playing the tank for our group and Ih ave never played a warblade before and I saw some things that I need to make sure work and see what you think.

So number one thing with Fighter being terrible is no way to make the enemy have to prioritize you as a target. I hope to remedy this with this build.

Stats at 37 pt point buy.
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats
Human - Martial Study - Shadow Blade technique
1st - Martial Stance - Island of Blades
3rd - Shadow Blade
6th - 20th don't know

Maneuvers - Shadow Blade Technique, Steel Wind, Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack

Stances - Punishing Stance, Island of Blades

The character wields a short sword and a heavy steel shield. at 3rd level his shortsword deals 1d6+7 damage. If I need to up my damage I can swap to a "greatsword" Without dropping my shield by moving into the punishing stance. I can better than Cleave with Steel wind, Shadow Blade technique is a lot like power attack charging minotaur gives me bull rush, and leading the attack is an awesome way to help out the other dps people in the party.

SO basically I will be the lynch pin that will have to be killed otherwise I will do a lot of damage and make everyone in my party even better.

Oha nd my AC at first level in a chain shirt will be 19 :D

So what do you think?

Also can I take shadow hand stuff as a warblade?

[tricktroller]

Also Does using Charging Minotaur Strike and punishing stance when I first charge in sound like a good idea? Or should I punishing stance shadow hand technique on a charge for 3d6+7 damage?

[Firechanter]

Gotta say that this build doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

1.) May I ask why you don't just play a Crusader? They are _the_ Tank class in 3.5. Even at first level, a Crusader leaves his enemies no good options: if they attack anyone but him, they suffer a hefty attack penalty, and if they do attack him, they do exactly what he wants, thereby increasing his own attack and damage output.

2.) A Warblade lacks any special Tanking abilities beyond his 1 extra HP per level. Don't get me wrong, they are a _fantastic_ class, my favourite Melee class ever, but they are mainly Strikers and Leaders.
That said, I did play a Warblade once who kinda served as a tank / bodyguard for the Mage, simply because I found it funnier than a Crusader. You have to be a lot more proactive/aggressive about it though.

That out of the way, allow me to say a few words about what "tanking" means: Tanking means "preventing the enemy from attacking other party members (particularly the squishy ones)".
There are two ways to achieve that:
a) give the enemy a _reason_ to attack you. That reason usually being "you dish out so bloody much damage they simply can't afford to ignore you".
At the same time, you shouldn't be untouchable, because if the enemy can't hit you, they will stop trying and go for easier prey.
b) deny the enemy the _opportunity_ to attack anyone else. This is generally referred to as Lockdown. You prevent the enemy from getting past you, so they don't have a choice.

Your shortsword+shield legionary does neither.
- 1d6+7 is not so terribly much damage. A Str 18 character with a Greatsword would do 2d6+6 and have 3 (!) feats to spare, plus the +1d6 from Punishing Stance. (Also, your shortsword char with Punishing stance would only do 2d6+4 because you don't get Shadow Blade anymore.)
- You threaten only 5'. The enemy will just leasurely walk around you and attack whoever they bloody want.

So what you _should_ do to play any Tank:
* Get a Reach Weapon. You need to be able to cover a wide area that the enemy can't just walk past.
* Get Combat Reflexes. The Reach weapon alone won't do you much good; it's the ability to actually hit anyone who moves through your threatened space that makes a tank.
* Get a tool to prevent the enemy from just soaking that AoO and continuing their attack. In other words, you want to stop them in their tracks. This is what's called Lockdown. To cut to the chase, I recommend the Stand Still feat, which is cheaper and more realiable than any Trip shenanigans.

As a Warblade specifically, you don't have any tool to directly _make_ the enemy attack you. But the second best option is indeed the Punishing Stance, as this makes it _attractive_ for the enemy to attack you. They get rewarded for attacking you because your AC is low, and they get punished if they ignore you because your damage is high.

It's not as good as the Crusader's Iron Guard Glare, but it's better than nothing. But you really need to have Reach.

For that matter, I'd invest in a Spiked Chain. You can afford the feat. Has the added side benefit that you can also get a Greatbow as backup weapon, and just become proficient with it when it shows you're gonna need it. (Note how a Warblade has _no_ ranged weapon proficiencies in and of itself.)

You can skip all those Shadow Hand feats for now. If you really want that stuff, wait a little and take a level of Swordsage, and invest just one feat instead of three to get Shadow Blade (which you can use with Spiked Chain).

So long story short, your first feat choices should be:

Combat Reflexes
Stand Still
Power Attack
EWP Spiked Chain

And go from there.

[tricktroller]

The main thing I want is at lower levels I want to boost the whole party (a la island of blades, leading the attack) maintain a high ac, and deal large quantities of damage. Is there a way to play a warblade as a high damage high ac character? I'm not going for total optimization but being competent is a requirement. I just don't want to sacrifice ac totally for damage. There will be no flaws and the game starts at 1st level.

[tricktroller]

also would taking two levels as fighter be beneficial here? first two levels as fighter would net me ranged proficiencies heavy armor prof, 3 feats at first and another at second so I could get all four of those feats in the first two levels and then swap to warblade.

[Aegis013]

The main thing I want is at lower levels I want to boost the whole party (a la island of blades, leading the attack) maintain a high ac, and deal large quantities of damage. Is there a way to play a warblade as a high damage high ac character? I'm not going for total optimization but being competent is a requirement. I just don't want to sacrifice ac totally for damage. There will be no flaws and the game starts at 1st level.

Island of Blades can be beneficial to the party, but Warblades aren't able to take maneuvers or stances from the Shadow Hand school. They get Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven.

You would need to take a prestige class, use a feat, or dip into Swordsage to take Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Crusaders and Warblades can both be high damage, high AC classes. However, Crusader has more ability to do party support stuff, as they both get White Raven (leading the attack and the like) but Crusader also gets Devoted Spirit, which lets you do things like encourage enemies not to attack your allies with Iron Guard's Glare stance, prevent enemies from wanting to leave your threatened space with Thicket of Blades, and heal yourself or your party while bashing your enemy in the face simultaneously (via Crusader's Strike and its ilk). Crusader also gets heavy armor proficiency.

Warblade has more potential for dishing out damage, but less ability to provide support for your party. It really has to rely on White Raven school for any party support, but it can provide some.

If your heart is set on Warblade, you'll still be a very competent character, and you'll be able to provide support stuff through White Raven, though actually "tank"ing is quite a bit more difficult.

[RFLS]

Island of Blades can be beneficial to the party, but Warblades aren't able to take maneuvers or stances from the Shadow Hand school. They get Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven.

Or....they can take Martial Stance/Martial Study. Which he did XD

[Aegis013]

Or....they can take Martial Stance/Martial Study. Which he did XD

I overlooked that. My bad. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Firechanter]

The good news is that "Boosting the party and dealing heaps of damage" is _exactly_ what a Warblade does. However, AC is sort of a Warblade's sore spot, since you only get Medium Armour, and no matter how much Dex you have you will always be worse than a Full Plate wearer. (Although ofc at levels 1-2 you can't afford full plate anyway.)

Sword&Board can be a viable tactic at the lowest levels, particularly against Ranged attacks, but I still think a Reach weapon is the superior option. Your lower AC does not matter if the enemy never gets to actually roll an attack. They approach you, draw an AoO, you hit them for 1d10+1d6+6 damage, they die. With your Dex mod, you can do this 4 times per round.

For AC, take the Wall of Blades maneuver. It works only against a single attack, but you get to choose and you can make it the attack that counts. Wall of Blades is so awesome that you will never want to swap it out.

(This is btw also a popular tactic for Warblade Überchargers: take Shock Trooper, PA for full and totally tank your AC; crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and if any of their lamenting women tries to hit you, pull Wall of Blades and laugh even more.)

[Eldariel]

The good news is that "Boosting the party and dealing heaps of damage" is _exactly_ what a Warblade does. However, AC is sort of a Warblade's sore spot, since you only get Medium Armour, and no matter how much Dex you have you will always be worse than a Full Plate wearer. (Although ofc at levels 1-2 you can't afford full plate anyway.)

Between Mithril Fullplate and Celestial Armor, this is actually only true until you reach the mentioned items. And of course, it's only 1 point of AC either way.

[DR27]

You want to boost party damage and tank well? Island of Blades isn't really all that big a boost unless you are pairing it with Tactics of the Wolf - so you need two initiators to get that done barring Master of Nine. Island of Blades is much better on the guy who is actually going to be dealing the bonus damage (i.e. the rogue). Shadow Blade Technique is lackluster compared to the options you have through your actual class. So, your plan just seems kinda convoluted and less than optimal in comparison to the tools that are actually given to you by the Warblade class.

As others have said though, the "Tank" part of what you say you want to do would be much smarter with Crusader, while still hitting pretty hard. From lvl 1 you are already doing cool things: telling enemies to hit you instead of your allies through Iron Guard's Glare/Douse the Flames, healing damage while hitting the enemy, playing synergy games with your hitpoint pool through a combo of Stone Power/Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike. Then there are the actual party synergy/damage boosting options like Vanguard Strike/Leading the Attack. All these things just get better over time.

It's just a better route to go if what you want is to make the party better and prevent enemies from targeting your allies.

[tricktroller]

So can you post a sample build for a Crusader? I have never used the Bo9S before. Mostly just looked up the warblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The good news is that "Boosting the party and dealing heaps of damage" is _exactly_ what a Warblade does. However, AC is sort of a Warblade's sore spot, since you only get Medium Armour, and no matter how much Dex you have you will always be worse than a Full Plate wearer. (Although ofc at levels 1-2 you can't afford full plate anyway.)

Sword&Board can be a viable tactic at the lowest levels, particularly against Ranged attacks, but I still think a Reach weapon is the superior option. Your lower AC does not matter if the enemy never gets to actually roll an attack. They approach you, draw an AoO, you hit them for 1d10+1d6+6 damage, they die. With your Dex mod, you can do this 4 times per round.
+
For AC, take the Wall of Blades maneuver. It works only against a single attack, but you get to choose and you can make it the attack that counts. Wall of Blades is so awesome that you will never want to swap it out.

(This is btw also a popular tactic for Warblade Überchargers: take Shock Trooper, PA for full and totally tank your AC; crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and if any of their lamenting women tries to hit you, pull Wall of Blades and laugh even more.)

I prefer using WoB to deal with touch spells (like the Orbs), it gives an awesome mental image of batting down magic with pure Martial ability (the only missing piece of my OoT Link Build is getting a Spell reflection on a full BAB class, stupid Eternal Blade's BAB +10 requirement)

[Shining Wrath]

So can you post a sample build for a Crusader? I have never used the Bo9S before. Mostly just looked up the warblade.

Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655)

If your goal is to make them attack you and then laugh at their pathetic effort, Crusader is the way to go.

If your goal is to kill them a lot with massive weapons, then Warblade.

If you want to mess with their minds, then Swordsage.

A Warblade does benefit from a Swordsage dip. The Swordsage gets good Will and Reflex saves, while the Warblade gets good Fortitude saves. More importantly, the Swordsage gets lots of maneuvers from the most schools, while Warblade gets the fewest maneuvers from fewer schools. You want to have a few levels of Warblade before dipping Swordsage because of how ToB:Bo9S computes imitator levels; you also want to dip an even number of SS levels for the same reason.

Crusader doesn't benefit as much from dips but does lead nicely to some prestige classes.

[tricktroller]

So would a warblade 3 sword sage 2 be good? I am more interested in tanking by being an immediate threat to lots of enemies. Tanking by debuffing isn;t my idea of tanking, though I guess that is the MMO tanking mindset.

[Firechanter]

So can you post a sample build for a Crusader? I have never used the Bo9S before. Mostly just looked up the warblade.

No problem. Crusader is really straightforward.

Stats:
I wouldn't dump both Wis and Cha. Well actually I wouldn't dump anything. With a 32 point buy, I use 16/14/14/10/10/14, because the Crusader gets a small Cha synergy and meshes well with Cha-based classes later on.
For a 37 point buy, go from there. Str and Con are priorities, though.

As mentioned before, use a Reach weapon, and have armour spikes.

Early feats:
Extra Granted Maneuver
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Stand Still

Stances:
Iron Guard's Glare
Leading the Charge
Thicket of Blades

Maneuvers:
note that, since you only get access to 3 disciplines, you will not likely get in trouble with your prerequisites.
Here is a sample progression, paving the road for Ancient Mountain Hammer:

Level 1:
Douse the Flames
Leading the Attack
Charging Minotaur
Vanguard Strike
Crusader's Strike

3: Mountain Hammer

5: White Raven Tactics
6: swap Crusader's Strike for Revitalizing Strike
[but the other Devo maneuver at this level is also very good]

7: Bonesplitting Strike
8: swap Douse the Flames for Covering Strike

So much for the road into mid levels. If you don't want Ancient Mountain Hammer, you can get rid of everything Stone Dragon except regular Mountain Hammer, and get more DS / WR stuff instead.

Actually, once you've got Thicket of Blades (at level 8), you might consider branching out to other classes.
- four levels of Knight will further increase your tankiness and improve your mobility.
- Bard also meshes well, because you can take Song of White Raven so your Crusader and Bard levels will stack for purposes of Inspire Courage. Commonly known as the Bardsader.
Both of these options have Cha synergy.

[DR27]

Crusader Build for the low levels:

Play a Human, you need to be able to pick your bonus feat. 32 point buy: 16 14 14 10 10 14
Level 1: Feats - Stand Still (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/stand-still--2759/), Combat Reflexes, Stance - Iron Guard's Glare (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/iron-guards-glare--3607/), Maneuvers Known - Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack, Douse the Flames
This initial setup should be used with whatever armor you can afford, plus a polearm/spiked gauntlet to threaten as much space as possible. Keep Iron Guard's Glare up, and stick close to your allies. The enemy will get a -4 to hit your allies as long as you threaten, and you can use Douse the Flames to shut down enemy AoO's, letting the skillmonkey get into position for precision strikes. The other maneuvers are pretty self explanatory: giving charging bonus damage/battlefield control for Charging Minotaur, Vanguard/Leading the Attack to boost party damage/to hit, and Crusader's Strike to heal damage. If an enemy tries to get past you, you have Stand Still in order to keep them in place. Furious Counterstrike/Steely Resolve is there, but minor at this point in your career.

Level 2: Same, but now you have another stance - add Martial Spirit

Level 3: Take Stone Power, and you can now get temporary hit points that you use to pay off damage accrued in your Steely Resolve pool. Essentially, you are ignoring the first 5 points of damage a round and getting a free +1 to hit/damage as a result. Take your first 2nd level maneuver, probably Tactical Strike since you want to focus on your allies - it gives allies a free 5ft step, can help them flank.

Level 4: Steely Resolve gets better, and you can swap out one of your old 1st level maneuvers - probably Mountain Hammer since it has some versatility for Vanguard Strike.

Level 5: Get your first 3rd level maneuver, Defensive Rebuke - now enemies provoke AoOs for attacking somebody besides you.

Level 6: Get a new feat. Keep to short chains or standalones. I usually feel obligated to get Extra Granted Maneuver, but Mage Slayer is pretty awesome as well. Swap out Crusader's Strike for Revitalizing Strike.

You get the idea - there aren't really any bad things to do with Crusader, and playing it that far should give an idea of where you want it to go (Hint- Thicket of Blades + Stand Still = amazing)
There's also the possibility of multiclassing with Warblade to get the best of both worlds - picking up a few levels will net some amazing maneuvers from Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, but you loose out on Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike stuff and will need to swap out Stone Power for something else.

EDIT: Swordsage'd - and I second reading the crusader's handbook

[Kioras]

Another Thing you can do as a Crusader, is at level 5, dip 1 level into Cloistered Cleric, then at level 6 go to ruby knight vindicator. Go all 10 levels in there, and then either switch back over to crusader, or grab some levels in another iniator class like warblade or swordsage. You would end up with some 4th level spells for versitily and possible more battlfield control.

Since Ruby Knight vindicator ads their full class level to the initiator level, even a small dip in the other 2 would add quite a few higher level manuevers.

[tricktroller]

I think this character is mostly just going to be martial, no spells, no other stuff, fighter barbarian and the Bo9S classes are about all I want to use, but thanks for the idea of Cloistered cleric.

[DR27]

So would a warblade 3 sword sage 2 be good? I am more interested in tanking by being an immediate threat to lots of enemies. Tanking by debuffing isn;t my idea of tanking, though I guess that is the MMO tanking mindset.That's a tough thing to do. It relies on your DM deciding to play your enemies a certain way, instead of relying on you to force the DM to play your enemies a certain way. There's not much advice to give if you just want to be an "immediate threat" - that's not usually a good enough motivation to attack you instead of the squishies. Load up on Iron Heart/Diamond Mind counters and whatnot to keep yourself alive, and charge/Tiger Claw your way to max damage dealing. You probably won't have the spare maneuvers to go White Raven though, and feats are better spent on getting better at combat (look at stormguard warrior, shock trooper, etc), not more maneuvers. Maybe buy a Crown of the White Raven to get a maneuver that way?

You seem to be really into swordsage - what is it that you think is especially worth dipping?

I wouldn't call the Crusader tanking through debuffing - instead through controlling the enemy's actions and movement. No other class is as good at it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I am more interested in tanking by being an immediate threat to lots of enemies.

Be a Dragonborn of Bahamut (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) with the Heart aspect and get the feat Entangling Exhalation in Races of the Dragon. Use that as often as possible to keep opponents debuffed and taking damage, and they'll not only view you as an immediate threat, but they'll also have a difficult time getting past you to attack someone else. Human is one of the least optimal choices for a Dragonborn though, so I'd put it on a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) as you get to keep the ability score adjustments, movement modes, and size but you lose everything else (general race of water traits, Orc light sensitivity, or everything a Human gets) in exchange for the Dragonborn traits.

Due to the lower Dex of Dragonborn, I'd go Crusader over Warblade or Swordsage. You can use your breath on a round when you don't happen to have your favorite maneuver granted. Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (consider Bravado and No Time For Book Learning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) for two extra feats, start out with Entangling Exhalation, EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG p144-145), and Combat Reflexes, and make sure you have a positive Dex mod. Pick up Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) and Extra Granted Maneuver with your next feats, and maybe even take Extra Smiting (CW) to get +2 daily uses of the Crusader's Smite Anything ability. Take Stone Power instead of Power Attack, especially later on when your attack bonus is high enough to always hit anyway.

[tricktroller]

Biff, please read the whole thing before posting replies. I already stated what books were allowed and that flaws aren't allowed.

However, thank you for your reply.

[Gwendol]

I second Crusader/Knight for tankyness, can't really go wrong.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biff, please read the whole thing before posting replies. I already stated what books were allowed and that flaws aren't allowed.

However, thank you for your reply.

I don't see any mention of what books you have access to, though no flaws was a few posts down.

My original advice of Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader with Entangling Exhalation will still work. Go sword and board and get Extra Granted Maneuver asap.

[tricktroller]

Ok books was posted on another post my apologies, Core rules(PHB-PHB2), Complete books, Bo9S and that is it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok books was posted on another post my apologies, Core rules(PHB-PHB2), Complete books, Bo9S and that is it.

In that case, I wouldn't bother with any Barbarian levels, just stick to ToB classes and maybe a Fighter dip if you really need the feats.

You can still go sword-and-board with EWP: Kusari-Gama and Combat Reflexes as a Human. Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) could still be an option if Core = SRD, otherwise maybe get Improved Trip. Note that you cannot initiate a standard-action maneuver on a charge, but there are specific maneuvers that improve charging (White Raven 2nd, 6th, and 9th). You could also try Idiot Crusader shenanigans, though most DMs wouldn't approve of that trick. I'd say Warblade or Crusader could work equally well for this character, Crusader would be more durable with the delayed damage pool and healing, while Warblade would have more options for offense and utility. I'd avoid dipping Swordsage or spend feats trying to access its disciplines, you're better off sticking to what your own class gives you and taking more useful feats.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, a crusader with stone power is unkillable at low levels.

A warblade...

I could swap your con and dex. You can boost dex to maximum usable with a mitheral breastplate by 20, con is always useful.

Then I would go for being a threat. Greatsword and Punishing stance. Get power attack and pound things into dirt.

As you level, focus on tiger and iron. Steel wind will allow you to protect yourself as you powerattack with rabid strikes. Mix in some stone dragon for DR pen and you are good to go.

Don't worry about being a tank. Be the character who can run up to the big thing and kill it. The party wizard has the job of slowing things down so you can kill things one at a time.

[tricktroller]

would you also take shards of Granite?

Ok so help me write up a badass crusader who tanks and deals good to great damage.

[Gigas Breaker]

I had one built with spiked chain, wolf totem barbarian, a couple fighter levels, combat reflexes, knock-down, stand still and defensive sweep. Nobody was going to get past him. Knock-down and stand still are both in the SRD if you count that as core. Be sure to take the stance thicket of blades if you go the lockdown route.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, for a crusader, lets look at your options.

Stone bones will give you silly toughness as you can gain temp HP to absorb your delayed damage. At low levels this will make you near unkillable. At high levels, less so, but meh.

From there you can ether go into ubercharging becuase you know you have the toughness to take a few sure hits, or you can go into a lockdown tripper build that focuses on AOOs.

For the charger build, go Str > Con > Cha > Int > Wis > Dex. You don't need any dex, so just dump it hard. Trade everything you can for more str and con, so earth dwarf or water orc is a good option. Get a greatsword and hit things HARD. Your go to paths are Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon.

For the tripper build go Str > Dex > Con > Cha > Int > Wis. You need dex for more AOO's. Get a spiked chain and trip everything. If you are forced to dump int too much to take combat expertise, consider a monk or barbarian dip to get it without the int prereq. Devoted Spirit is your go to path here, as it has great lockdown.

[DR27]

Ok so help me write up a badass crusader who tanks and deals good to great damage.If your primary objective is to deal high damage, go Shock Trooper/Leap Attack and combine with Charging Minotaur/Leading the Charge/Battle Leader's Charge, grab some Stone Dragon maneuvers to overcome DR, and then focus everything else on the Devoted Spirt maneuvers that protect allies. You will be better able to shrug off damage than a Warblade, but slightly less damage oriented (you'll still get some good damage from charging/strikes)

[tricktroller]

Ok so 32 pt point buy

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 12

Human

Greatsword

also Long sword and Heavy steel shield

Feats
Human Stone Power
1st

Crusader 4/ Warblade x/ ? x

Maneuvers
Crusader's strike
Stone Bones
Charging Minotaur
Leading the Attack(Is Vanguard Strike the same thing?)
?

Stances
Iron Guard's Glare
(Martial spirit looks like a trap unless you are dual wielding)

So I was thinking I would play a Crusader who uses a greatsword and uses stone power and stone bones to stave off damage who at level 5 takes his first level in Warblade which I think allows me to take 3rd level maneuvers and a 3rd level stance?

What do you guys think?

Oh pearl of Black doubt was the stance I was thinking of grabbing at 5th level

[tricktroller]

also what do you think about my other feat being martial study for steel wind?

Or a human Warblade
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8

Human Martial Study (Crusader's Strike)
1st Martial Stance (Iron Guard's Glare)

Greatsword user maybe dip into fighter or crusader instead?

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, I would focus on foe hammer and mountain hammer for attacks. If you want to pick it up from a class, I would recommend swordsage instead. You can then also pick up the save replacement manuvers and have enough slots to use them all. They aer touch and go on a crusader base, as you can not ensure you have then when you need them, but having a copy of each one in a separate swordsage stack will ensure that you can shrug off one of each save per combat.

Pearl of black doubt isn't that useful though. IF things are already missing you, then you are fine. Generally attacks start with the best chance to hit decrease from there. I would suggest that YOUR ac is fine, and you should focus on ironguard glare or thicket of blades to keep opponents stuck to you and away from your allies.

[DR27]

also what do you think about my other feat being martial study for steel wind?As a martial adept, it's not exactly efficient to be wasting feats on martial study/stance. Take the class that you want to do what you want. They all deal good damage, it's the details that vary. Crusader focuses on keeping your allies safe, Warblade on maximizing damage, and Swordsage on the supernatural.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are some instances when getting a maneuver via feat is quite useful, for example, Cloak of Deception is much more useful for a warblade since they can use it every other round with relative impunity, same for the Shadow _____ line.

[tricktroller]

Can crusader be done as sword and board or does he lose out on pretty much every feat that is cool for crusader?

[Firechanter]

I suppose you can, and there are even a couple of maneuvers that support it. But I'm not a fan for all the reasons I mentioned early in the thread. Generally, THF is the superior fighting style in D&D, bar none.

[DR27]

Can crusader be done as sword and board or does he lose out on pretty much every feat that is cool for crusader?The maneuvers that support sword and board are very cool, but you do lose out on lockdown without reach. So it's a balancing act. If you decide not to do lockdown or charging, you can go sword and board since you don't care about reach or two-handed power attack - it synergizes well with Stone Power. Shield Block basically allows you to say "No" to a single attack against an ally, and Shield Counter is just plain cancels an opponent attack. JaronK put up a pretty good build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2) for the shield wielding Crusader.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to tank, you need reach. Reach makes you sticky. That's why you want Guisarme + Armor Spikes or Spiked Chain.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Kusarigama (DMG) and/or Spinning Sword (SoS) means you can sword and board+reach.

[tricktroller]

Ok if i went Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1 would I end up with 3 stances and 8 maeuvers?

[Gavinfoxx]

Also a Dancing Shield. Or is it an Animated Shield? I always get them mixed up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Animated, Dancing is for weapons.

Edit: it is a +2 or +3 enhancement so not really feasible at low levels (when shields are most useful)

[DR27]

If you want to tank, you need reach. Reach makes you sticky. That's why you want Guisarme + Armor Spikes or Spiked Chain.If you read through the thread, the OP doesn't sound like he wants to tank, has a different definition - just wants to hit hard and take hits, not necessarily direct hits away from allies.

[Fouredged Sword]

Remember, animated shield mean that at low levels when everything has low HP, you can sword and board with a longsword (or warax if dwarven)

At higher levels you can upgrade to a greatsword or greatax and get an animated shield. You can do it not too far into the point that your bonus damage from strikes starts to tapper off compared to monster HP.

And remember, if you dip fighter and don't want the tower shield prof, you can trade it for extreme shield prof for a better alternative to a heavy shield.

[tricktroller]

Ok folks how about this make me a crusader 1/Warblade 1/Crusader X/Whatever X character that wields a kusari gama and heavy steel shield. Use the books I said 32 pt point buy and go nuckin futs with it.

[tricktroller]

How does something like
Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/Crusader 1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader->20

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12 (+1 at 4th)
Wis 10
Cha 12

Feats
Human Combat Reflexes
1st EWP Kusari Gama
3rd Shield spec heavy
(4th)F1 combat expertise
(5th)F2 Improved Trip
6th Shield Ward

Stances (Up to 3rd level)
Iron Guards glare
Punishing Stance
Martial Spirit

Maneuvers (Up to 3rd level)
Crusader's strike
Vanguard strike
Charging minotaur
Leading the attack
Douse the flames
Steel wind
Sudden Leap
Moment of Perfect mind

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be tempted to go with knockback rather than trip with a Kusari Gama. It is a one handed weapon, so you loose the nice bonuses to trip attempts for using a two handed weapon. Knockback has no restriction like that, just a bullrush. You can effectively push opponents back so that they can't ever get past you.

Goliath will get you past the large prereq, and they make great crusaders to begin with.

[tricktroller]

Can;t take goliath sadly. where is knockback? Also can't take jotunbrud.

nevermind Knockback is in races of stone also.

Only books allowed are completes, phb1 and 2, and Bo9S

[Firechanter]

I think Knockback is also in Races of Stone. Anyway, you must count as Large to take the feat. Goliaths and Jotunbrud qualify - but if you can't take either of those, you probably can't take anything else that does.

[tricktroller]

Yeah it will probably start out as low power but get ridiculous through items later.

Kinda tired of playing lower power games.... I needs some power gaming.

[Gigas Breaker]

How does something like
Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/Crusader 1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader->20

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12 (+1 at 4th)
Wis 10
Cha 12

Feats
Human Combat Reflexes
1st EWP Kusari Gama
3rd Shield spec heavy
(4th)F1 combat expertise
(5th)F2 Improved Trip
6th Shield Ward

Stances (Up to 3rd level)
Iron Guards glare
Punishing Stance
Martial Spirit

Maneuvers (Up to 3rd level)
Crusader's strike
Vanguard strike
Charging minotaur
Leading the attack
Douse the flames
Steel wind
Sudden Leap
Moment of Perfect mind

Seems fine. Have fun!

[tricktroller]

any suggestions for changes? Something I might have missed out on?

[Gwendol]

I think Knockback is also in Races of Stone. Anyway, you must count as Large to take the feat. Goliaths and Jotunbrud qualify - but if you can't take either of those, you probably can't take anything else that does.

I don't think Jotunbrud qualifies as being large for Knockback.

[Gwendol]

How does something like
Crusader 1/ Warblade 1/Crusader 1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader->20

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12 (+1 at 4th)
Wis 10
Cha 12

Feats
Human Combat Reflexes
1st EWP Kusari Gama
3rd Shield spec heavy
(4th)F1 combat expertise
(5th)F2 Improved Trip
6th Shield Ward

Stances (Up to 3rd level)
Iron Guards glare
Punishing Stance
Martial Spirit

Maneuvers (Up to 3rd level)
Crusader's strike
Vanguard strike
Charging minotaur
Leading the attack
Douse the flames
Steel wind
Sudden Leap
Moment of Perfect mind

Too little White Raven for my taste: I suggest Leading the Charge stance and Battle leaders charge strike.
I don't get the love for Iron Guard's glare. Sure it's a debuff, but unless you are using a reach weapon (read: spiked chain) the area it covers is extremly limited, and those enemies are very likely to strike you first anyway. Martial spirit and crusader's strike are ok for low level, but really should be traded for something better already at level 6.
Leading the charge OTOH scales with level, so will never go out of style, and the damage stacks with the other White raven stuff, so already at third level you are looking at +13 damage on a charge.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ironguard glare is great for mounts though. Psy reform your paladin mount or animal companion to teach it the glare and then ride it around. It works for any 6+ HD mount (3rd level feat for martial study, 6th for the stance).

[Red Fel]

More importantly, Iron Guard's Glare is one of the few ways one can actually tank in D&D. Generally, smart enemies may simply ignore the tank/beatstick and prioritize attacking the squishies; IGG is one of the few abilities that penalizes them for doing so.

[Fouredged Sword]

And when you get enlarge person + a reach weapon you can ironguard a rather large area. It is not a stance I sit in all the time, but it is a stance that lets me take my swift action to grant the squishy caster a +4 to his AC.

That, and I would recommend martial study (countercharge) because that ability is ridiculously useful. A serious argument can be made for a swordsage dip later in the levels for the save replacement and countercharge. Between that, high saves, high AC, and lots of HP, you will be very hard to kill.

[Gwendol]

More importantly, Iron Guard's Glare is one of the few ways one can actually tank in D&D. Generally, smart enemies may simply ignore the tank/beatstick and prioritize attacking the squishies; IGG is one of the few abilities that penalizes them for doing so.

Since it only affects attack rolls it may not always affect "smart" enemies. I'd say the usual spiked chain wielder will be a lot more efficient at tanking than a crusader in the IGG stance. Thicket of blades FTW, or Knight with ToM and Bulwark of Defence.
In any case, I still argue that IGG without reach is quite pointless.

[Firechanter]

Sure, Thicket of Blades is better than IGG. That's why it's higher level. IGG is a lowlevel tool to get you on the way. Once you unlock ThoB, you use that.

[juicycaboose]

S
In any case, I still argue that IGG without reach is quite pointless.

He has reach, a kusari-gama threatens at 5ft and 10ft.

[Gwendol]

Thicket of blades is better yes, because it actually prevents your enemies from moving. IGG only imposes a penalty to attack rolls made against allies, while you threaten them. For the most part they can just 5' step out of reach and hit them anyway. I find it too circumstantial, but I guess it depends on the games run.

[Fouredged Sword]

Thicket of blades is a preventative stance. You take it to prevent opponents from reaching your squishy mage. IGG is a reactive stance. You take it to reduce the threat of a opponent who has already reached your mage.

A dragon can short range port past your thicket of blades and threaten your spellcaster. You have one round to do as much as possible to save the mage who is now stuck int he middle of the dragon's reach and one round from a full attack. What do you do?

You hop into IGG to help the mage avoid the full attack he is about to eat and then hit the dragon with a strike that prevents him from making AOO's on the fleeing mage. Next round you switch back to thicket of blade to try to hold him with you and unable to chase the spellcaster.

You should have one stance that you use mos the time, but stances are swift actions, so switching stances should be used to bring in a stance to cover things your main stance doesn't cover.

[Gwendol]

Ok, that makes more sense.

My recommendations to the OP still stands though: not enough White Raven.

[tricktroller]

Ok guys, I do have reach with this most current build, so I'm not sure why people are saying its useless without reach...because I have it....

Also I will be starting out at 1st level so this character has to keep those things in mind I was just writing up what his build would look like over 6 levels. This guy needs to be effective right from the start otherwise he will be useless and no one will have fun.

The reason I took martial spirit is all of the AoOs I will possibly be getting. Is leading the charge better?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, white raven has an alternate solution to the mage location problem. The final strike causes everyone to make a charge action. You can use it to have the mage charge an object away from the dragon while the rest of the party charges the dragon in retaliation.

[tricktroller]

So will this guy be able to tank well with a kusari gama?

[Gwendol]

Yes, as long as you have reach you will do very well. Note that Martial Spirit is good at level 1, while Leading the Charge is not (+1 damage is not that spectacular, even if it's not useless). IIRC stances can't be exchanged, but perhaps you may convince your DM to allow it anyway?

Just make sure you have enough White Raven to pick Battle Leader's charge when it becomes available.

[tricktroller]

How much will I need for it? What would you suggest as a power load out?

[Firechanter]

I think War Master's Charge has a prereq of 4 maneuvers (stances also count).

Going from high to low, some great WR maneuvers are:
White Raven Hammer
Order Forged from Chaos (another way to grant your buddies Move actions out of their turn)
White Raven Tactics (best maneuver ever)

So if you plan in these three, you only need one more. Either a stance, or maybe Douse the Flames-->Covering Strike.

[tricktroller]

I need things for 1st level. or at least arranged by what level maneuver they are so I know when I can take them.

[Firechanter]

Well, for 1st level, I'd take Douse the Flames as WR maneuver.

[tricktroller]

its already part of the list for 1st level maneuvers.

[Red Fel]

Bottom line: "Tanking" means (1) keeping enemies from reaching your squishies, (2) reducing the damage they do to your squishies, and (3) helping your squishies escape harm. There is no perfect way to do this, but some maneuvers help bridge the gap.

Devoted Soul maneuvers do an exceptional job of the first two. They keep you firmly between your enemies and your squishies, penalize enemies for prioritizing squishies over you, and occasionally spit out healing. White Raven maneuvers do an exceptional job of the third. The abuse of the action economy allows allies - including your squishies - to act when it's not their turn, which allows them to escape or finish off a threatening foe, as need be.

You'll notice that both of these disciplines are used by the Crusader, and only White Raven is also used by Warblade. That's not coincidence. Choosing to go with Warblade means the role of tank will be harder, but not impossible.

My advice is to go look at the Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655) at the recommended maneuvers there. Yes, you're playing a Warblade, but you're playing him in the style of a Crusader, so this will help. The Handbook also does a good job of prioritizing which maneuvers to take.