Can someone explain how Moment of Perfect Mind and such work?

[Syrinth]

Hello everyone. I'm in a DnD game and one of the other players we have is a warblade. I don't have the book, but I'm trying to understand how Moment of Perfect Mind and the other such maneuvers work/aren't ridiculously powerful.

Note, I am well aware that DnD is not a PvP game and does not really support it, and I know the irony of a wizard complaining about power.

I just don't understand how they can render themselves literally practically immune to spells with saving throws.

[THEChanger]

Mind Over Body/Action Before Thought/Moment of Perfect Mind all operate on the same principle. Namely, that instead of rolling the appropriate Saving Throw, the Adept rolls a Concentration Check. As Skills are much easier to boost than Saving Throws, and typically have a much higher base value anyway, this results in the ability to have, for one moment, a much higher Saving Throw. It is important to note, however, that doing this is an Immediate Action, and thus (IIRC) deprives them of their Swift Action the following turn, as well as being limited to once per round. The Adept must then recover said Maneuvers before doing so again. It isn't a perfect defense, but it is a potent one.

Just wait until you meet Iron Heart Surge. :smallamused:

[Syrinth]

I know all about Iron Heart Surge.

Sorry, I meant that I understand how they work, but I don't get the recovery. From what I've seen with our Warblade he can use the manouevers, then recover them and heal hp for each manouever that he recovers from.

As a mid-level wizard, I don't see any options I'd have against such a defense except for liberal application of Enervate or just gtfo...

[Deophaun]

Also important to note that since skill checks do not automatically fail on a natural 1, there is no chance of automatic failure with these maneuvers (if your modifier + 1 is enough to make the DC, you really don't have to bother rolling).

Edit: Here is how recovery works for the Warblade:
During a round in which he must not have used a maneuver, he spends a swift action then must either make a melee attack or spend a standard action doing nothing.

Essentially, the warblade would only be able to use a given maneuver every other round if he was recovering as quickly as he could.

[THEChanger]

I know all about Iron Heart Surge.

Sorry, I meant that I understand how they work, but I don't get the recovery. From what I've seen with our Warblade he can use the manouevers, then recover them and heal hp for each manouever that he recovers from.

As a mid-level wizard, I don't see any options I'd have against such a defense except for liberal application of Enervate or just gtfo...

Hmmm.

Well, a Warblade normally recovers Maneuvers by spending a Swift Action, which must then be followed up with an attack of some kind. However, he can't do that if he's used a Counter the previous turn. So more likely he has the Adaptive Style Feat, which lets him simply recover his Maneuvers as a full-round action. The healing likely comes from the Vital Recovery Feat, which he only gains the benefit from once per encounter.

But honestly, this doesn't sound like a whole lot to worry about. If he's recovering the Maneuver giving you trouble every round, then all he is doing is sitting there, not being a problem. If he isn't, you just blast him with the same spell twice in a row. Alternatively, go for spells which don't have a Saving Throw. Quicken Spell Metamagic. Various DC boosters. The Warblade is good for melee. Very good. But still nowhere near a Wizard.

[Syrinth]

Oh, so he's only able to use the same Counter once every two rounds? Ok, that's less horrible, even if it does mean I would need to burn two spells in order to get through.

It's not so much a he's causing trouble, as it is I always tend to compare builds to see "If I had to take him down, could I" and looking at the Counters and how they worked without the book was confusing as heck to me.

Edit to Add: But if he has Adaptive Style, he can just take a full-round action right?

Yes, it's true that he has to do nothing that round, but by doing nothing, he essentially guarantees that any spell I throw at him with a saving throw will be beaten because he's able to just refresh continually. *Admittedly, I could easily escape but I'm just looking at this as a trying to understand viewpoint*

[Big Fau]

Oh, so he's only able to use the same Counter once every two rounds? Ok, that's less horrible, even if it does mean I would need to burn two spells in order to get through.

It's not so much a he's causing trouble, as it is I always tend to compare builds to see "If I had to take him down, could I" and looking at the Counters and how they worked without the book was confusing as heck to me.

Edit to Add: But if he has Adaptive Style, he can just take a full-round action right?

Yes, it's true that he has to do nothing that round, but by doing nothing, he essentially guarantees that any spell I throw at him with a saving throw will be beaten because he's able to just refresh continually. *Admittedly, I could easily escape but I'm just looking at this as a trying to understand viewpoint*

Just hit him with spells that don't allow a save, or with Quickened spells.

Or summon something and have it wreck him. Or summon something that forces him to make saving throws. If he uses one of the Counters on you, he won't be able to counter your summons' abilities.

[Deophaun]

Edit to Add: But if he has Adaptive Style, he can just take a full-round action right?

Yes, it's true that he has to do nothing that round, but by doing nothing, he essentially guarantees that any spell I throw at him with a saving throw will be beaten because he's able to just refresh continually. *Admittedly, I could easily escape but I'm just looking at this as a trying to understand viewpoint*
Adaptive Style doesn't work that way.

You use it to change readied maneuvers, that's it. So he can swap out maneuvers that he has readied for those he does not. However, it does not touch which maneuvers are expended and which are not, because expended is not a state in opposition to readied (your expended maneuvers are still readied, but they must be recovered). Warblades generally don't bother with Adaptive Style, because it does almost nothing for them.

[Twilightwyrm]

Adaptive Style doesn't work that way.

You use it to change readied maneuvers, that's it. So he can swap out maneuvers that he has readied for those he does not. However, it does not touch which maneuvers are expended and which are not, because expended is not a state in opposition to readied (your expended maneuvers are still readied, but they must be recovered). Warblades generally don't bother with Adaptive Style, because it does almost nothing for them.

Actually, this has been clarified by WotC to actually recover your expended maneuvers. This is why it is so commonly taken by Swordsages (who would otherwise suffer from an insufferable recovery mechanic).

[Deophaun]

Actually, this has been clarified by WotC to actually recover your expended maneuvers. This is why it is so commonly taken by Swordsages (who would otherwise suffer from an insufferable recovery mechanic).
Do you have a cite? Remember, the FAQ, Sage Advice, and CustServ aren't exactly held in high repute.

And Swordsages do gain a significant benefit from Adaptive Style, in that they have some many more maneuvers known than readied that they can essentially refresh all of their maneuvers with it.

[Big Fau]

Do you have a cite? Remember, the FAQ, Sage Advice, and CustServ aren't exactly held in high repute.

And Swordsages do gain a significant benefit from Adaptive Style, in that they have some many more maneuvers known than readied that they can essentially refresh all of their maneuvers with it.

Not that it's much better than the FAQ, Sage, and CustServ, but the errata does clarify that AS does refresh the maneuvers.

[DarkSonic1337]

I guess by strict RAW adaptive style doesn't officially refresh the maneuvers, but considering the last phrase

" If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day"

I think the intent is that you ready your maneuvers as if you had just done so for the start of the day. And if that were the case, your maneuvers would be unexpended, just as the would be at the start of the day. This was clarified from the FAQ, Sage advice, Cust Serv, and errata so it's pretty strongly supported RAI.

[Urpriest]

Not that it's much better than the FAQ, Sage, and CustServ, but the errata does clarify that AS does refresh the maneuvers.

I mean, the fan-errata is probably less relevant to this question.

Unless you've found the real errata somewhere? I knew it existed!:smalltongue:

[DeltaEmil]

Not that it's much better than the FAQ, Sage, and CustServ, but the errata does clarify that AS does refresh the maneuvers.The Tome of Battle errata has no mention at all of Adaptive Style. It suddenly turns into a Complete Mage errata.

[Firechanter]

The point about MoPM (and kin) is not about the Warblade being able to spam it every round -- he can't, at least not if he wants to actually do anything -- but that it can soak the _one_ spell an enemy spellcaster might get off on him, and give the Warblade a chance to counterattack on his turn and take out that bloody finger-wiggler. If the Warblade doesn't manage to do precisely that on his turn, he'll have his pants down.

[Chronos]

Personally, I would argue that even with adaptive style, a swordsage still has no usable refresh mechanic. A full-round action is too steep a cost. It would be an extremely rare situation where you would be better off spending a round refreshing than just finishing the fight with your stance, whatever subpar maneuvers you happen to have left, and ordinary attacks.

[Crake]

note you cant use immediate actions while flat footed, so if you can catch him so, he cant use the counters

[Icewraith]

Until/Unless he gets Iron Heart Surge you can just Solid Fog him and call it a day anyways.

@Chronos
You are forgetting about things like Time Stands Still and White Raven Tactics. You spend a full round to get your maneuvers back and then immediately catch up with TSS (assuming you were going to full attack). you have your counters and boosts back.

Furthermore, you can make sure ALL of the relevant abilities useful for this particular fight are prepared. So you can drop Moment of Perfect Mind for something more useful if you're in the middle of an encounter with giants or other melee-focused combatants.

[Shining Wrath]

Adaptive Style does allow maneuver recovery - you get to pick a fresh new set of maneuvers, all of which are available. If they happen to be identical to your previous set, that does not matter.

A Warblade, though, can recover all his maneuvers by using a swift action followed by any sort of attack, either standard action or full. If there is no one available to attack, the warblade must spend a standard action to make a flourish with her weapon.

However, Moment of Perfect Mind can only be used once in between such recoveries. The easiest way to beat it, then, is to have 2 attacks requiring a will save from 2 different attackers - my warblade got dominated a few months back by a pair of vampire spawn. First one lost to MoPM, but the second one beat my poor Will save (slow for Warblades).

[Deophaun]

Adaptive Style does allow maneuver recovery - you get to pick a fresh new set of maneuvers, all of which are available.
Citation needed.

[Big Fau]

The Tome of Battle errata has no mention at all of Adaptive Style. It suddenly turns into a Complete Mage errata.


I mean, the fan-errata is probably less relevant to this question.

Unless you've found the real errata somewhere? I knew it existed!:smalltongue:

I don't consider WotC's failure as errata. The BG guys may not be official but it's still better than what WotC gave us, even if I don't agree with everything in it.

[Urpriest]

I don't consider WotC's failure as errata. The BG guys may not be official but it's still better than what WotC gave us, even if I don't agree with everything in it.

Sure, but there are people here who don't know that you're referencing a fan project. Might do to be a little more explicit about that.

Anyway, I've always maintained that the fact that they put a document on their site for it means that they do have ToB errata written, they just accidentally put the wrong thing up. The real errata is on someone's hard drive somewhere.

[Big Fau]

The real errata is on someone's hard drive somewhere.

And starts with the maneuvers section. It really would not help even if they posted up the real thing.

[Chronos]

I don't know, if a real, complete, official errata document existed somewhere, it's hard to see how it would accidentally get scrambled in with the Complete Mage errata (transporter accident?). My guess is that the guy who was tasked with creating the ToB errata started by using the Complete Mage file as a template, but then got rushed by a deadline and never finished it, and turned in what we all know.

Icewraith, White Raven Tactics isn't a Swordsage maneuver, and Time Stands Still doesn't come online until 17th level. Even with Time Stands Still, though, it's still probably not worthwhile to refresh. You start by spending a few rounds (let's say 3) using your maneuvers before you want to refresh. Then you spend round 4 refreshing-- You're now down a round. Round 5, you use Time Stands Still, and get back the full attack you could have gotten on the previous round... But you're still not caught up. That one-round delay in getting that full attack is a significant cost, and any enemies you might have killed in your first full attack have gotten in an extra round's worth of actions. Not until round 6 can you really have gotten ahead of where you'd be without refreshing. And if a fight goes to 6 rounds at level 17, then someone is seriously holding back.