Power that separates Tier 3 from Tier 2 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

bekeleven

2013-09-16, 12:33 PM

I know this tradeoff is generally described as versatility (within a build) vs. power, but I was curious to catalog the power that is generally associated with Tier 2s.

In my mind, I comes down to more than one of the following:

Planar Help (Planar Ally spells and Gate, esp. with the secondary spells)
Action Economy Abuse (Celerity, Time Stop, etc.)
Powerful Divinations (Scrying, Foresight, etc.)
Save-or-Lose spells (and their wacky cousins lose-or-lose spells)
Planar Abuse (Genesis, Magnificent Mansion, Etc.)
Easy-to-make or RAW-unambiguous infinite looping (Psion)

As everybody and their warmages agree, blasting spells don't a tier 2 make. Dread Necro proves that minions don't make a tier 2 by themselves either. However, it's possible that powerful minions combined with another element on this list could push it over the edge, but then, is that really the minions that would be the deciding factor?

All of the elements I listed tend to come together. Which are required for tier 2, if any? Are their any combinations of the abilities above that still wouldn't make the cut? Is it possible that one category (such as save-or-loses) is enough to make a tier 2 alone? Are there categories I missed?

Psyren

2013-09-16, 12:57 PM

As everybody and their warmages agree, blasting spells don't a tier 2 make. Dread Necro proves that minions don't make a tier 2 by themselves either. However, it's possible that powerful minions combined with another element on this list could push it over the edge, but then, is that really the minions that would be the deciding factor?

There isn't one deciding factor I'd say. The DN's minions are just another expression of the second item on your list, mixed with a touch of the first, but the difficulty of creating and deploying them (as well as their fairly limited capabilities once made) keep them from getting the DN to T2.

Incidentally, Psions are squarely T2 even without infinite loops. They have plenty of other ways to break the game, such as the Save Game trick, or mind-switching with their own Aleax, Fusion + Astral Seed, handing Soul Crystals out to the party, instantly vaporizing all of an enemy's equipment or even just soloing encounters well above their CR by being nigh-unkillable. The various PP loops just let them do these without resting. They aren't T1 simply because they can't easily rotate their repertoire once selected - a limitation that the Erudite overcomes.

Save-or-Lose don't make you T2 - even lower tiers get those.

I'm note sure what's abusive about Magnificent Mansion.

Emperor Tippy

2013-09-16, 12:59 PM

Ansem

2013-09-16, 01:19 PM

Dread necromancer isn't tier 2?!
I must have suddenly become a pro then.... because I outclass the tier 1's all the time with it.

I actually have found the tier system complete bull****. It expects you to go all the way to 20 with a class which most sane people won't do and doesn't take into account the fact no one will play a fighter up to lvl 10 or that the sorcerer qualifies for some superior PrC's due to spontaneous casting which the wizard needs to waste a feat on to apply, and even if it would go all the way to 20 I've seen power fluctuating more than not. Your wizard might be able to nuke a nation, but I will coup de grace his low HP ass and kill him in a single round and he won't have the right spells prepared to stop me.

JaronK

2013-09-16, 01:25 PM

Remember that player skill and how you chose to use the class has a large effect... in general though, there's nothing a Dread Necromancer can do that a Cleric can't do (often way earlier, too).

Anyway, the main separation between T2 and T3 is that T2s generally need to be reigned in to avoid campaign breaking if the player really goes for what's available to them by RAW, while T3s generally don't. There are exceptions of course, but T2s can just break the game without much effort. This can be simple stuff like casting Teleport to go somewhere when the DM wanted a campaign that included the journey to that destination (or Plane Shifting out of a trap area), or it can be doing stuff like calling in Efreetis for endless Wishes.

Basically, if you need house rules to reign in basic class features because they can easily break the game, it's usually T2 or higher. Some T3s push it sometimes (Factotum and Dread Necromancer most notably) but those are the classes that are higher in their tier.

JaronK

JoshuaZ

2013-09-16, 01:30 PM

Tier 2 and above classes are only there because of one simple truth; they have massive raw power on a strategic scale.

You can gestalt every Tier 3 and below class in the game together and it won't break into Tier 2.

Tier 2 and above is the realm of classes that can go "I don't like this city/nation/continent/world/plane/multiverse so I will remove it within the next 48 hours."

I agree with the first part partially, as it applies to very high levels, but not the second. A heavily gestalted character of that sort can pull off many of the stunts that we would associated with Tier 2.

The actual Tier list describes T2 as "Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes." This says nothing about nation-state removal, although that is one of the things certainly that T1s and T2s are capable of at their higher levels. But at mid to low levels, your hypothetical super-gestalt will end up looking a lot like a T2 and in some contexts will actually have more raw power (for example, they'll basically never run out of resources whereas all T2s have a limited amount they can on any given day before they need to rest unless they are using serious cheese).

But even at mid to high levels, your supergestalt will end up acting a lot like a T2, even with some aspects of a T1. For example, the factotum (T3) gives them the ability to cast off of almost any spell list, slightly behind a full caster. Combined with the binder with the online vestiges that's by itself a massive amount of versatility (summon monster at will is insanely abuseable) (EDIT: This bit doesn't work, tier list puts binder only at T3 when it lacks online vestiges and at T2 with the online vestiges, but the binder is still giving a lot of versatility even without those.) Wildshape ranger gives you wildshape. Beguiler lets you pick up a few specific spells from powerful lists, and you already get the best damaging spells and some other nice goodies from dread necromancer (a little less so from warmage). You also get to pick up up to fifth level powers from the bonus feats you get from psychic warrior.

Why? Because you can make pretty much the best Factotum ever and a Sorcerer can go "I cast Shapechange, I win now". Or "I cast Waves of Exhaustion, Dispel Magic, and then snipe you with my Fell Drain Magic Missile wand until you die".

Which is in fact close to the sort of stunts your super-gestalt could do.

Gnaeus

2013-09-16, 01:42 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 01:51 PM

Thats pretty silly, Tippy. A Dread Necro or a Beguiler with Arcane Disciple can duplicate any trick that a sorcerer or a favored soul can pull off short of a few 9th level spells. A gestalt Factotum, Dread Necro, Warmage, Beguiler, Crusader, Wildshape Ranger is going to own pretty much any Favored Soul or Spirit Shaman or Zceryll abusing Binder in terms of either power or versatility.

I'm going to disagree with this. While Arcane Disciple and similar tricks are useful, he's seldom going to have the Wis score to get the most out of it, plus he's going to need to spend quite a few feats just to get the array of broken tricks available to a given Tier 2.

I'd say the only time a Tier 3 or lower would have a chance of breaking into the Tier 2 bracket is a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necro with either Rainbow Servant 10 with 10/10 casting to cast from the Cleric list, or Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster to cast from the Wizard list. In either case though, you may as well just play the higher tier class and skip the shenanigans.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-09-16, 01:52 PM

The T3 to T2 step is kind of a weird one, because the tiers don't naturally flow that way. I feel like the natural progression is T4 (good at one or two things) to T2 (broken at one or two things), and T3 (good at most things) to T1 (broken at everything).

What makes a class T2 as opposed to T4 is the ability to end encounters with a single standard action, available without optimization cheese, and which can't be easily bypassed. Beguiler and Dread Necro are stuck in T3 because it's so easy to become immune to death effects/mind-affecting/illusion spells. Ubercharger barbarian is T4 because it's even easier to avoid chargers.

EDIT:
I'd say the only time a Tier 3 or lower would have a chance of breaking into the Tier 2 bracket is a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necro with either Rainbow Servant 10 with 10/10 casting to cast from the Cleric list, or Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster to cast from the Wizard list. In either case though, you may as well just play the higher tier class and skip the shenanigans.
Rainbow Warsnake (and variants) arguably top pure Cleric, since you cast spontaneously from the entire list. You can grab a level of Sacred Exorcist and gain turn attempts, and then they've got nothing on you.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-16, 01:53 PM

Dread necromancer isn't tier 2?!
I must have suddenly become a pro then.... because I outclass the tier 1's all the time with it.

The system is about given roughly equal optimization what will happen. And DN is one of the higher of the T3s (roughly on par with factotum). And individuals are often more skilled at optimizing a specific class.

It expects you to go all the way to 20 with a class which most sane people won't do

In this regard it is an approximation. But even if you PrC out, this is generally a pretty decent approximation. If in your campaign everyone is doing heavy PrCing it will work less well as an approximation, and will be more accurate if in groups without PrCing.

and doesn't take into account the fact no one will play a fighter up to lvl 10

Um, the fact that no one plays a fighter that way is connected to the same things that puts it into the tier it is in.

or that the sorcerer qualifies for some superior PrC's due to spontaneous casting which the wizard needs to waste a feat on to apply

What? Wizards get more bonus feats, making it generally easier to apply. Let's take for example to keep things simple the core PrCs meant for spellcasters and look at how easy they are to qualify, for simplicity focusing on what they can in core, with only a few glances outside when it is absolutely necessary.

Arcane Archer: about as easy for both to qualify for although if one qualifies as early as possible you'll have to spend almost all your non-bonus feats to qualify, so the wizard bonus feats will matter. But generally not a great class because of the lack of advancement of spellcasting, so it doesn't really matter.

Arcane Trickster:Sorcerers qualify for it one level after wizards (due to their spell level being one level behind), and they have to spend one of their limited spells known on mage hand, which wizards get in their spellbook for free since it is a level 0 spell.

Archmage:So, both need to spend 3 feats, so the wizard will have slightly more build flexibility. The wizard qualifies at minimum at 13th level, with the sorcerer needing to wait until 14. But the actual situation is more serious for the sorcerer:The sorcerer needs to carefully choose his spells known to have the diversity of spells needed to qualify. A wizard has far more flexibility. A sorcerer will once they enter have a (small) advantage in that the sacrifice of spell slots hurts them less (since the sorcerer has more spell slots total) than it does the wizard, but that's a small advantage and doesn't address the main issue of qualifying.

Dragon Disciple: Yes, wizards can't in core qualify for this at all because it forces spontaneous casting. But like the arcane archer, the lack of spellcasting advancement makes this class pretty suboptimal anyways.

Eldritch Knight: Similar story to those above in terms of when they qualify. Wiz 4/fighter 1 qualifies automatically. Sorcerers need to wait another level. And the loss of a spellcasting level at 1 hurts a sorcerer more than a wizard.

Loremaster: Wizards get the skills much more easily than a sorcerer does, since a wizard gets access to all knowledge skills, and a sorcerer only gets one as a class skill without tricks. Many (most?) wizards will also qualify for this class pretty easily simply from their bonus feats, with just needing to pick up the skill focus. Wizards also get the spell casting necessary almost completely for free (there are 3 level 0 divination spells on the core wizard list), whereas a sorcerer will need to spend precious spells known. So, this is incredibly easy for the wizard while close to impossible for the sorcerer.

Mystic Theurge: The worst thing about MT is that one's spellcasting is behind that of straight casters. And this problem will be *worse* for a sorcerer. Moreover, the late entry means that sorcerer/cleric entry cannot get 9th level spells at all pre-epic without early entry cheese or other stunts, whereas wizard/cleric can.

Thaumaturgist: So, in core, neither wizards nor sorcerers can qualify for this class. They can do so with stunts outside core, but they generally require feats, which is as already discussed, substantially easier for a wizard than a sorcerer.

So in core, there's one clear winner for sorcerers (dragon disciple), one clear winner for wizards(loremaster), and of those two, loremaster is the more useful class. All the others they can both qualify for, and it is substantially easier for the wizard.

And if you go outside core then the situation gets worse for the sorcerer because although there are other PrCs which require spontaneous spellcasting, there are also PrCs which require prepared spellcasting.

Your wizard might be able to nuke a nation, but I will coup de grace his low HP ass and kill him in a single round and he won't have the right spells prepared to stop me.

At what level? At low levels, it may come down to initiative. But at higher levels, a well-prepared wizard against a fighter or barbarian is not going to go that way. First, if the wizard is ever that close to a warrior they are already doing something wrong. Second, they will have a bunch of spells to win initiative, and they'll have all sorts of fun contingencies ready to go.

Edit:Forgot archmage.

Sith_Happens

2013-09-16, 01:54 PM

Yeah, there's a lot of T3-6 classes out there, enough that if you gestalted then all together I'm pretty sure you'd have access to most of the spells in the game.

Gnaeus

2013-09-16, 02:10 PM

I'm going to disagree with this. While Arcane Disciple and similar tricks are useful, he's seldom going to have the Wis score to get the most out of it, plus he's going to need to spend quite a few feats just to get the array of broken tricks available to a given Tier 2.

OK, Its on. You make A Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, or Monster Summoning Binder. Point out how many "Broken Tricks" you have. I will make an all T3 and below Gestalt that is more broken. Say levels 4, 8, 12, and 16? Better yet, same game challenge?

In all honesty, barring rediculousness like Dragonwrought Kobolds, a simple Beguiler is better than a sorcerer through much of the level range. A Factotum//Beguiler is almost always going to be better in play barring just a few tricks he cannot access. I don't think there is any way that a low T2 is not going to be blown out of the water by the uber gestalt. The wisdom requirement is a joke, since the low T2 casters are 2 attribute MAD (Wisdom and Cha), so making the super-gestalt Int/Wis MAD is not much of a drawback.

I'd say the only time a Tier 3 or lower would have a chance of breaking into the Tier 2 bracket is a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necro with either Rainbow Servant 10 with 10/10 casting to cast from the Cleric list, or Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster to cast from the Wizard list. In either case though, you may as well just play the higher tier class and skip the shenanigans.

Solid proof that you do not know what you are talking about. A full list caster with those classes does not break into T2. A T2 has limited spells. A full list caster with any cleric spell on his list is a T1, and higher than a cleric at that, because the cleric can only cast the spells he prepared. However, that has nothing to do with the strength of the T3, but of the PRC he chose. A T3 caster who broke into T2 with a PRC would be something like a shadowcraft gnome.

Person_Man

2013-09-16, 02:45 PM

Tier 3 classes are good at something. For example, a Tier 3 (or lower) clas that is good at scouting might have good Skills (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Search, Listen), some class abilities that improve those Skills (Find Traps, fast movement, etc) that might also have some secondary tactical benefits. They are utilitarian - there is a door that the DM put in front of you that this class can open.

Tier 1-2 classes can actively reshape the entire game using their abilities. For example, a Tier 1-2 class that is good at scouting might have the ability to cast a spell which tells you your enemy's current location, type, number, what they had for breakfast, and what they're currently talking about. They share reality - DM puts forth some general campaign goals, and the players can decide to use their abilities to achieve their goals however they like.

Tvtyrant

2013-09-16, 02:48 PM

Lots of classes become tier 2 when they gestalt. Shadowcaster is a tier 2 with an extremely unfortunate mechanic IMO, which combined with a less resource-rare class would be quite powerful.

anacalgion

2013-09-16, 03:10 PM

Dread necromancer isn't tier 2?!
Yes.

Your wizard might be able to nuke a nation, but I will coup de grace his low HP ass and kill him in a single round and he won't have the right spells prepared to stop me.

But see now you're just making things up. There are a million reasons why this doesn't work unless you stumble upon a sleeping wizard alone in an antimagic field and at higher levels nobody needs to sleep (rings of sustenance, etc. It's not a perfect example but bear with me) and antimagic fields and the like get a lot less scary. It doesn't matter what a fighter/rogue/barbarian/factotum/whatever does, it's very difficult to compete with the power of tier 2s and the versatility of tier 1s

Chronos

2013-09-16, 03:16 PM

Back to the OP, I notice that Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange don't fit into any of the categories of power listed. I'd replace category 1 with "things that give you access to monster abilities, not restricted by a specific list". Summon Monster N and most of the polymorph subschool spells are (mostly) fine, though, since they do limit you to a specific list.

nedz

2013-09-16, 03:17 PM

I'm going to disagree with this. While Arcane Disciple and similar tricks are useful, he's seldom going to have the Wis score to get the most out of it, plus he's going to need to spend quite a few feats just to get the array of broken tricks available to a given Tier 2.

Wis 13 with a +2/+4/+6 item is well within WBL when you need them

Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Beguiler +2 / Divine Oracle +2 / Beguiler ++
Educated [1], Arcane Disciple [1], Skill Focus [Know(Religeon)][3], Arcane Disciple [6][9][12?]
Gets most Illusions and Enchantments, enough divinations and can grab Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration at the same level as a Sorceror. That's the best part of 4 schools of magic, plus other assorted domain spells, spontaneously.

I'd say the only time a Tier 3 or lower would have a chance of breaking into the Tier 2 bracket is a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necro with either Rainbow Servant 10 with 10/10 casting to cast from the Cleric list, or Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster to cast from the Wizard list. In either case though, you may as well just play the higher tier class and skip the shenanigans.

The RS trick is arguably beyond T1: Cast any spell on the Cleric list without preparation — poor Cleric.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 05:41 PM

Rainbow Warsnake doesn't come online until way late in the character's career, even with early entry tricks. It doesn't actually move you up even a single tier unless you're guaranteed to play long enough to reach the level when it does give you the cleric list. For most characters, it's not a guaranteed tier upgrade. However, prestige classes have their own tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) (Rainbow Servant is rated Up Two Tiers), so it should be easy enough to get an idea of how to boost a given character of a lower tier class into one of the higher tiers. Although you can't really give the entry class credit for what the prestige class achieves, as the same could be done on nearly any chassis with few exceptions. Granted it's not 100% accurate, but it's a good place to start.

Sorcerer is better than Wizard with the right tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4), and if you switch a spell on that for one of the same level there's a value change of zero so a meditation time of zero. Switching spells of equal level on an Ancestral Relic Runestaff is a value change of zero so a meditation time of zero, making it a free action would be greater than zero so it doesn't even take a free action to do it. This allows a given Sorcerer to spontaneously cast from his entire class spell list, as long as the Runestaff already has a spell of the desired level with daily uses remaining.

As I said, there are tricks for other classes as well, such as Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster to be able to cast spells from the Wizard list. A shrewd DM would make you have the spellbook open to the spell in question to cast it, limiting its usefulness during combat, but it still adds an extreme level of versatility that would definitely move you up a tier.

Arcane Disciple comes with an opportunity cost. You get nine specific spells each 1/day for a feat, but that's a feat you didn't spend on Fell Drain Spell or Invisible Spell or Versatile Spellcaster or Summon Elemental or any number of other powerful feats. That's one of the major differences between Tier 1-2 classes and the Tier 3 and lower ones, the higher tier classes don't have to invest their limited resources into gaining more spells and more power trying to catch up to other characters. You can make a Tier 3 or lower character who's invested everything he can to increase his raw power in order to emulate a higher tier class. You can compare that to a character of one of those higher tier classes who's spent his resources on things that are actually fitting to character development and/or fun. While that Tier 3 or lower character can appear to emulate the higher tier class, it's just not going to play the same because a given character of that higher tier class is still going to have more options, both when creating/leveling the character and during play.

Psyren

2013-09-16, 05:50 PM

137beth

2013-09-16, 05:52 PM

I actually have found the tier system complete bull****. It expects you to go all the way to 20 with a class which most sane people won't do and doesn't take into account the fact no one will play a fighter up to lvl 10 or that the sorcerer qualifies for some superior PrC's due to spontaneous casting which the wizard needs to waste a feat on to apply, and even if it would go all the way to 20 I've seen power fluctuating more than not.

...huh? None of those "assumptions" are actually assumptions made by the tier system. The tier system does not assume you go to level 20, or that you stay in one class:smallconfused:

JaronK

2013-09-16, 05:56 PM

It expects you to go all the way to 20 with a class which most sane people won't do

What ever gave you that idea? The post itself says this isn't true.

and doesn't take into account the fact no one will play a fighter up to lvl 10 or that the sorcerer qualifies for some superior PrC's due to spontaneous casting which the wizard needs to waste a feat on to apply,

Yes it does. It never assumes you don't multiclass, and it absolutely takes into account the way casters can PrC out if they want to.

Your wizard might be able to nuke a nation, but I will coup de grace his low HP ass and kill him in a single round and he won't have the right spells prepared to stop me.

If you're doing a coup de grace then his HP don't matter. And why wouldn't a Wizard have spells to stop a melee opponent attacking him? That's... kinda the first thing Wizards learn to defend against. Many of them at level 1 (yay for Abrupt Jaunt!). Besides, if you're opening with Coup De Grace... are you really saying you can beat a Wizard if he's completely helpless? Because that's not saying much. Even a commoner can do that.

JaronK

Hiro Protagonest

2013-09-16, 05:56 PM

but I will coup de grace his low HP ass and kill him in a single round and he won't have the right spells prepared to stop me.

That right there is why you're wrong. Because that's an assumption, an assumption with no basis except how you think a person who is soft squishy yet managed to survive to high levels should be.

Tippy once said that a wizard doesn't survive to level 20 by going around shooting Fireballs. He survives by being the most paranoid son of a bitch there is.

Rubik

2013-09-16, 06:04 PM

...huh? None of those "assumptions" are actually assumptions made by the tier system. The tier system does not assume you go to level 20, or that you stay in one class:smallconfused:Most people who refuse to believe the tier system works have no idea how it works.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 06:07 PM

Custom items aren't useful comparison points though, you could give a wizard or warlock a custom staff with every spell in it if you wanted. The existence of such items wouldn't change the tier system, it would just mean that the DM is overriding it.

Creating your own items within the rules for a specific type of item is perfectly acceptable. A character who takes Craft Wand isn't limited to only making the types of wands listed in the DMG. A character who takes Craft Staff can use the general rules for pricing spells on a staff rather than making one of the published staffs. This is the entire reason why an Artificer is considered Tier 1! The same goes for a Runestaff, especially with Ancestral Relic which allows you to determine every detail of your item's properties, and there are very clear, set in stone rules for pricing a runestaff based on what spells it contains. That this is available from 3rd level makes it extremely potent, compared to waiting for Craft Staff. Making a custom item using the custom wondrous item guidelines is invalid, but creating your own items using clear, precise pricing rules is part of why each class falls into its tier.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-16, 06:09 PM

Creating your own items within the rules for a specific type of item is perfectly acceptable. A character who takes Craft Wand isn't limited to only making the types of wands listed in the DMG. A character who takes Craft Staff can use the general rules for pricing spells on a staff rather than making one of the published staffs. This is the entire reason why an Artificer is considered Tier 1!

Disagree here. An artificer who makes no items other than official items would still be T1. Magic Item Compendium and other splat books have more than enough items without any custom items.

Emmerask

2013-09-16, 06:10 PM

Slipperychicken

2013-09-16, 06:10 PM

Dread necromancer isn't tier 2?!
I must have suddenly become a pro then.... because I outclass the tier 1's all the time with it.

Tiers assume similar player skill and system mastery. So yeah; you are probably building better, or playing more skillfully, than the Tier 1s you mention.

Karnith

2013-09-16, 06:16 PM

Tiers assume similar player skill and system mastery. So yeah; you are probably building better, or playing more skillfully, than the Tier 1s you mention.
Additionally, most tier 1s have a pretty low op-floor, whereas Dread Necromancer has a fairly high op-floor, so at relatively low op-levels, it wouldn't be surprising for a DN to outperform, say, a wizard.

Urpriest

2013-09-16, 06:20 PM

Disagree here. An artificer who makes no items other than official items would still be T1. Magic Item Compendium and other splat books have more than enough items without any custom items.

To add to this, an Artificer is not Tier 1 because of itemcrafting, it's Tier 1 because of Infusions and other class features.

Anyway, I like to define Tier 2 as "capable of singularity-cheese". Basically, spells that get you access to other spells. There are a set of spells (TO-complete is a term I've been considering for them) that let you access pretty much anything else. Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, Shapechange/Greater Metamorphosis, Gate(and the later Planar Allies/Bindings), Ice Assassin...basically, if you've got access to just one of these spells, you have all of them, plus essentially everything else in the game. A class that progresses smoothly up to these spells and has comparable power in the rest of their progression is what I would consider a Tier 2.

The Trickster

2013-09-16, 06:27 PM

hmm my try I guess ^^

The difference between tier 2 and tier 3 is that tier 2 classes have a build in solution for every problem, while tier 3s only have a solution for a lot but nowhere near all problems.

The difference between tier 1 and tier 2 is that tier one has a ton of solutions for each problem while tier 2s have only a few (ie in actual gameplay you wont notice a difference most likely).

Hmmm I'm not sure I agree with this exactly. To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), T2 classes don't have nearly as many options as a T3 class. This means a T2 class may not have the ability to solve a certain encounter, and it's only their game-shattering power that makes them a higher tier. T3 classes are actually better in a wide variety of situations, funny enough. There could be some situations where a T2 class may not have a mechanical solution to a problem.

Although, I suppose you could just cast Shapechange over and over and technically have "a solution to every problem"...

Just my two copper though. I could be completely wrong. :smallbiggrin:

Karnith

2013-09-16, 06:29 PM

Hmmm I'm not sure I agree with this exactly. To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), T2 classes don't have nearly as many options as a T3 class. This means a T2 class may not have the ability to solve a certain encounter, and it's only their game-shattering power that makes them a higher tier. T3 classes are actually better in a wide variety of situations, funny enough. There could be some situations where a T2 class may not have a mechanical solution to a problem.
Sort of; a given tier 2 character may not have an answer to a situation, but a tier 2 class can be built to solve any situation. Remember that tier 2s generally have access to all of the same tricks as tier 1s, they just don't usually have all of them in one build like tier 1s.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-16, 06:31 PM

To add to this, an Artificer is not Tier 1 because of itemcrafting, it's Tier 1 because of Infusions and other class features.

A large fraction of the class features are connected to item crafting. If you took out all the ones that are connected to item creation (so everything but Artisan Bonus, Disable Trap, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Metamagic Spell Completion, and Skill Mastery) I'm not sure that that with infusions would still be T1.

The Trickster

2013-09-16, 06:39 PM

Sort of; a given tier 2 character may not have an answer to a situation, but a tier 2 class can be built to solve any situation. Remember that tier 2s generally have access to all of the same tricks as tier 1s, they just can't have all of them in one build like tier 1s can.

Yeah, I think I read the post wrong. That is a valid point.

Another point that was made earlier was that T3 classes are better then T2 classes until late game. I mostly agree with this, since it feels like T2 classes don't get the "nukes" until later levels anyway.

Urpriest

2013-09-16, 06:40 PM

A large fraction of the class features are connected to item crafting. If you took out all the ones that are connected to item creation (so everything but Artisan Bonus, Disable Trap, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Metamagic Spell Completion, and Skill Mastery) I'm not sure that that with infusions would still be T1.

The standard example is that there's a low-level infusion that essentially gives you every spell from every list from levels 1-4 with minimal prep time. At higher levels you've instead got enough traditional items that your other class features and higher level infusions let you use them to act like the other Tier 1s. I agree that crafting is a big part of things, but that's because they get almost every item-crafting feat and thus can be versatile, not because they can craft custom items.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-16, 06:48 PM

The standard example is that there's a low-level infusion that essentially gives you every spell from every list from levels 1-4 with minimal prep time. At higher levels you've instead got enough traditional items that your other class features and higher level infusions let you use them to act like the other Tier 1s. I agree that crafting is a big part of things, but that's because they get almost every item-crafting feat and thus can be versatile, not because they can craft custom items.

Right, I agree that custom items don't enter in at all. I'm not however sure if you removed all their item crafting feats and related stuff that they'd still be T1. In particular, after about level 10, you'd start to see their comparative power drop off.

The Trickster

2013-09-16, 06:56 PM

Edit: Nevermind, what I said was already said. Please ignore.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 07:18 PM

The point I was trying to make was, Tier 3 and lower classes can put tons of effort and investment into emulating a Tier 1-2 class. When a Tier 1-2 class puts as much effort and investment into being more powerful, the ball doesn't just get knocked out of the stadium, it turns the visiting team's hometown into a crater. Sometimes that effort and investment is in perfectly legal unpublished items, and such items should not be excluded as long as there's no ambiguity in their pricing. A Wand of Wraithstrike isn't published anywhere, but it's a staple of any melee Spellthief or arcane gish.

Urpriest

2013-09-16, 07:31 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 07:53 PM

Wands aren't custom items, though. They've got dedicated formulas that explicitly apply to every spell, as opposed to explicit guidelines that directly invite Rule 0 as the last step of the creation process.

Staffs and Runestaffs have dedicated formulas that explicitly apply to every spell, none of it is guidelines and none of it involves Rule 0.

Urpriest

2013-09-16, 08:03 PM

Staffs and Runestaffs have dedicated formulas that explicitly apply to every spell, none of it is guidelines and none of it involves Rule 0.

Staff explicitly apply to only the spell lists given. That's the whole point of staffs: they're thematic spell lists bound to a single item.

The rules for Runestaffs are admittedly more ambiguous, but they do restrict to a short list of thematically associated spells, and thematics are generally a DM call.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 08:20 PM

Staff explicitly apply to only the spell lists given. That's the whole point of staffs: they're thematic spell lists bound to a single item.

The rules for Runestaffs are admittedly more ambiguous, but they do restrict to a short list of thematically associated spells, and thematics are generally a DM call.

Creating Staffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs) gives specific instructions for pricing, just like the section on Wands. Runestaffs have a similar section in MIC p224, it states, 'the spells should be thematically linked in some way,' which can be as thematic as, 'spells I want from the Sorcerer list.' The keyword 'should' means you can just ignore it and follow the pricing rules for whatever you put on that runestaff. It makes an allowance for any number of any level of spells by using 'should' instead of a definitive term, and creating it via Ancestral Relic permits you to determine every detail of its properties, including whether or not it follows the 'should' guideline.

Urpriest

2013-09-16, 08:23 PM

Creating Staffs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs) gives specific instructions for pricing, just like the section on Wands. Runestaffs have a similar section in MIC p224, it states, 'the spells should be thematically linked in some way,' which can be as thematic as, 'spells I want from the Sorcerer list.' The keyword 'should' means you can just ignore it and follow the pricing rules for whatever you put on that runestaff. It makes an allowance for any number of any level of spells by using 'should' instead of a definitive term, and creating it via Ancestral Relic permits you to determine every detail of its properties, including whether or not it follows the 'should' guideline.

The "creating staffs" section is in the custom magic items section, which is for DMs to homebrew new items. What you want to look at instead is the Craft Staff feat, as that delineates player access to said rules:

Craft Staff [Item Creation]
Prerequisite

Caster level 12th.
Benefit

You can create any staff whose prerequisites you meet.

Crafting a staff takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a staff, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of its base price. A newly created staff has 50 charges.

Some staffs incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the staff’s base price.

Compare to wands:

Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite

Caster level 5th.
Benefit

You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.

Without that bolded line, you can only create items that already exist in the books. Craft Wand has it, Craft Staff does not.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-16, 11:54 PM

The trick I mentioned doesn't use item creation feats though, it uses Ancestral Relic.

Psyren

2013-09-17, 12:00 AM

Creating your own items within the rules for a specific type of item is perfectly acceptable.

Sure it's acceptable, but the DM is under no obligation to accept it. And before you call him a jerk, it's pretty common for DMs to want to stick to printed material; the community has combed through it and uncovered all the potential pitfalls, it's easier to tweak something existing (if it needs tweaking) than something brand new, and most importantly of all, it prevents the DM from dealing with other players who now want custom items of their own because your character got one.

This is the entire reason why an Artificer is considered Tier 1!

Artificers are T1 even sticking 100% to existing items. For instance, there is an entry for a scroll of every core spell on the DMG loot tables, which they can just point to - never mind all the pre-printed wands, rods, staves and wondrous items out there.

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 07:12 AM

. While that Tier 3 or lower character can appear to emulate the higher tier class, it's just not going to play the same because a given character of that higher tier class is still going to have more options, both when creating/leveling the character and during play.

Uhm, no. Not really. Stop looking at sorcerer and start looking at the weaker tier 2s. If Arcane Disciple is a feat tax for a beguiler or DN (and it is, unless you are going for a spell list expanding PRC), Spontaneous Summoner is a feat tax on Spirit Shaman and Spont Healer for the favored soul. Tier 3 classes also get bonus feats, like Improved Familiar for Dread Necro, which frees up a feat to do something else useful.

And during play? That is not my experience. I played a Spirit Shaman last game, and a Dread Necro the game before. Almost every other encounter with the SS I was wishing I had the DN. Sure, I had a bigger spell list, but I could only have one spell per day of my highest level prepared. Since I had to aim for generally useful spells to make sure I was relevant in fight X, I could not really take advantage of the more specialized spells on my list. And while the druid spell list overall is a T1, on an individual spell for spell basis I usually found my spells to be weaker (especially since probably a third of the druid list is only really helpful with Wildshape or an animal companion). On my level 4 spell list, for example, I had no single choice that gave me more options than Animate dead, Fear, Enervation, Inflict Critical Wounds, Summon Undead IV, Evards, and Dispel Magic all put together. Spont Summoner helped a little, but again, then you are comparing to a DN with Arcane Disciple. And then you add in the tier 3's non spellcasting class features, like rebuking undead and at will negative energy healing. Beguiler is the same song with different lyrics.

Yes, Tier 2s do have access to some game breaking material, but in my experience the practical difference between a low T2 and a high T3 is minimal, and often comes down in favor of the T3, which can expand its spells known more easily.

Sort of; a given tier 2 character may not have an answer to a situation, but a tier 2 class can be built to solve any situation. Remember that tier 2s generally have access to all of the same tricks as tier 1s, they just don't usually have all of them in one build like tier 1s.

This is true. However, which situation can a T2 be built to solve, that a T3 cannot be built to solve? Barring some 9th level spells, how many tricks can be built into a T2, which cannot be emulated by a T3 caster. Heck, if the T3 is a Beguiler rocking UMD, there aren't even many 9ths that he can't copy with a runestaff.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-17, 07:59 AM

This is true. However, which situation can a T2 be built to solve, that a T3 cannot be built to solve? Barring some 9th level spells, how many tricks can be built into a T2, which cannot be emulated by a T3 caster.

So, I agree that the hypothetical super-gestalt would break into T2. But there are still a lot of things that are extremely difficult for a normal T3 to emulate. Regarding Arcane Disciple, it helps to keep in mind that not all domains may exist in a given setting or be easily accessible. For example, if a specific domain only exists for good deities in a setting then a dread necromancer would have trouble picking it up. And many of the more abuseable spells out there don't appear on domain lists at all. (To use an extreme example, Ice Assassin doesn't appear on any domain list.) And a domain will often only give you one or two genuinely useful spells.

Thus, a sorcerer can easily pick up both Astral Projection and Time Stop at 19th level but finding a way for a warmage, beguiler or dread necromancer to pick up both the Trickery and Travel Domains is extremely difficult. And a Dread Necromancer or a Warmage isn't going to be able to do Time Stop followed by massive buffing. It isn't just single high level spells, it is sets of high level spells together that make the real difference, and it is much harder to get those on a T3.

Deophaun

2013-09-17, 08:20 AM

Thus, a sorcerer can easily pick up both Astral Projection and Time Stop at 19th level but finding a way for a warmage, beguiler or dread necromancer to pick up both the Trickery and Travel Domains is extremely difficult. And a Dread Necromancer or a Warmage isn't going to be able to do Time Stop followed by massive buffing. It isn't just single high level spells, it is sets of high level spells together that make the real difference, and it is much harder to get those on a T3.
Fixed. (Astral Projection is a necromancy spell)

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 08:21 AM

So, I agree that the hypothetical super-gestalt would break into T2. But there are still a lot of things that are extremely difficult for a normal T3 to emulate. Regarding Arcane Disciple, it helps to keep in mind that not all domains may exist in a given setting or be easily accessible. For example, if a specific domain only exists for good deities in a setting then a dread necromancer would have trouble picking it up. And many of the more abuseable spells out there don't appear on domain lists at all. (To use an extreme example, Ice Assassin doesn't appear on any domain list.) And a domain will often only give you one or two genuinely useful spells.

Thus, a sorcerer can easily pick up both Astral Projection and Time Stop at 19th level but finding a way for a warmage, beguiler or dread necromancer to pick up both the Trickery and Travel Domains is extremely difficult. And a Dread Necromancer or a Warmage isn't going to be able to do Time Stop followed by massive buffing. It isn't just single high level spells, it is sets of high level spells together that make the real difference, and it is much harder to get those on a T3.

Actually, that's a great example. Beguilers already get time stop. Travel gave them teleport, so they likely would have gotten it anyway. They get decent buff spells. And since they also have foresight, they are more likely than the sorcerer to get the combo off before the enemy acts. Remember that the t3 caster is likely to know more spells than you. Edit: as Deophaun points out, DNs can do it too.

Also, all these examples are Sorcerer, top of T2. While I do think that T3s are often better than a sorc in play, I don't have to demonstrate that I can beat a sorc, only a Favored Soul, Monster summoning Binder, or Spirit Shaman.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-17, 08:28 AM

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 09:15 AM

Again, the difficulty is the level of optimization. No one is arguing that they can't with sufficient work pull off combinations. The difficulty is how much optimization one needs to pull them off. The Tier system assumes the same amount of optimization for all classes.

That the lower end of T2 might be closer to the upper end of T3 is a less controversial but less interesting claim.

Tippy said all the t3s together would not be T2. Biffonicus argued that T2s had more tricks. If you disagree with them, you are arguing on my side.

And I understand that we are talking about same optimization level. I'm not advocating some wierd trick. You pointed out your killer combo, we demonstrated that 2 different tier 3s could emulate it with a single feat found in a commonly available book (C Div) that they would probably have taken anyway (at least the beguiler). At the optimization level where the Beguiler or Dread Necro are too unoptimized to take Arcane Disciple, the sorcerer is likely to be so unoptimized that whatever tricks he comes across by random chance will be less effective than the suite of pre-picked spells the DN or Beguiler come loaded with.

Chronos

2013-09-17, 09:15 AM

Quoth JoshuaZ:

So, I agree that the hypothetical super-gestalt would break into T2. But there are still a lot of things that are extremely difficult for a normal T3 to emulate.
So? There are a lot of things that are extremely difficult for a wizard to emulate, too (like, say, almost the entire Conjuration [healing] subschool). A class isn't measured by what it doesn't have, but by what it does.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-17, 09:30 AM

Tippy said all the t3s together would not be T2. Biffonicus argued that T2s had more tricks. If you disagree with them, you are arguing on my side.

It isn't helpful to split discussions into "sides". It leads to treating arguments as soldiers (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers) And leads to a lack of appreciation for subtle viewpoints such as agreeing with a conclusion but not agreeing with every argument made for that conclusion. In particular, I agree that the super gestalt would be effectively T2 or maybe even T1. I disagree with the idea that anything a T2, a T3 can do with the same level of optimization.

And I understand that we are talking about same optimization level. I'm not advocating some wierd trick. You pointed out your killer combo, we demonstrated that 2 different tier 3s could emulate it with a single feat found in a commonly available book (C Div) that they would probably have taken anyway (at least the beguiler). At the optimization level where the Beguiler or Dread Necro are too unoptimized to take Arcane Disciple, the sorcerer is likely to be so unoptimized that whatever tricks he comes across by random chance will be less effective than the suite of pre-picked spells the DN or Beguiler come loaded with.

I have to disagree but this may be connected more to what we both consider to be basic optimization. Would you consider the following to be a rough measure of optimization: Low optimization- Uses whatever book the base class is and things in core. Mid and higher optimization generally involve other books. This standard is practical (the more books used, the less likely a given group will have access to all of them) and is descriptive of what people do (the first thing people do when they make a character using a specific class is look for character options in that book or in core). Does that seem reasonable?

If so, then using arcane disciple is a higher level of optimization than a sorcerer using core only. And that's without talking about the practical difficulties with finding a deity that matches what one needs.

There's also a more subtle issue here: even if one were to believe that anything a T2 can do, the right T3 can do with the same optimization level, that still means one needs to choose the correct T3. Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler aren't all different aspects of the same class. While figuring out which one to choose is generally easy, having to make that initial choice is one of the ways in which T3s are substantially weaker than T2s. If someone says to a DM they are going to play a beguiler, and they are starting at level 4, the DM is going to have a lot more of an idea of what their abilities are likely to be at 12th or 17th level than they will if the person is playing a sorcerer. The same remark applies for dread necromancer or binder without online and Dragon Magazine vestiges.

Now to Chronos:

So? There are a lot of things that are extremely difficult for a wizard to emulate, too (like, say, almost the entire Conjuration [healing] subschool). A class isn't measured by what it doesn't have, but by what it does.

The claim I was responding to was the assertion that they can do about the same thing with about the same optimization level.

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 09:43 AM

JoshuaZ

2013-09-17, 09:47 AM

No, I do not agree with that definition of optimization at all. Optimization has much less to do with books and much more to do with level of planning. A low optimization sorc is not merely defined as Core Only. You can plan a lot of wierd stuff in core. A low optimization Sorc might be one who picks all his spells for role-play reasons (like a sorcerer who picks only fire spells) or one who picks spells without much research and gets ones with cool names.

Ok. So some of this may come down to disagreement over what constitutes optimization or how to measure it. I'm not mind you arguing that that is a perfect definition of optimization, but that it should go into it. Do you not think actual real life budgets and constraints (e.g. no one has bough Complete Divine in a given group) should not enter into practical optimization consideration? Do you think that number of splat books used is not at all relevant to measuring how optimal a character is likely to be? If you hear that someone has a sorcerer with spells and feats from six books, which sounds more likely to you, that it is a theme sorcerer or that it has tricks? Note incidentally that even when one is doing thematic assignments, how much splat diving one is willing to do matters. A sorcerer who wants to burn everything will be much more optimal if they take a few orb spells than they if stick to core.

I'm curious, do you have a different proposed method of measuring how much optimization has gone into a character design? But remember, we're not talking about a perfect definition of optimization, but rather how to measure it.

Urpriest

2013-09-17, 09:54 AM

The trick I mentioned doesn't use item creation feats though, it uses Ancestral Relic.

And Ancestral Relic, like Craft Staff, does not give you any special license to homebrew magic items that don't exist in the setting.

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 10:23 AM

Ok. So some of this may come down to disagreement over what constitutes optimization or how to measure it. I'm not mind you arguing that that is a perfect definition of optimization, but that it should go into it. Do you not think actual real life budgets and constraints (e.g. no one has bough Complete Divine in a given group) should not enter into practical optimization consideration? Do you think that number of splat books used is not at all relevant to measuring how optimal a character is likely to be? If you hear that someone has a sorcerer with spells and feats from six books, which sounds more likely to you, that it is a theme sorcerer or that it has tricks? Note incidentally that even when one is doing thematic assignments, how much splat diving one is willing to do matters. A sorcerer who wants to burn everything will be much more optimal if they take a few orb spells than they if stick to core.

I'm curious, do you have a different proposed method of measuring how much optimization has gone into a character design? But remember, we're not talking about a perfect definition of optimization, but rather how to measure it.

Low op= minimal system mastery. You may or may not have figured out which stat is most important. You pick options for role-play reasons or because they sound cool. TWF or S&B fighters. Sorcs who blast (but do not have the system mastery to make blasting effective). Low op Sorcs are actually one of the weakest classes in the game, and T3s dominate low op land because it is hard to screw them up.

Mid op= solid system mastery. Sorc has realized that Alter Self is much more versatile than Acid Arrow. Packs a wide selection of top level powers.

High op=solid system mastery + planning for best combos. Like picking an outsider race so that 3 levels later you can abuse alter self with dwarf ancestors. Combos that make individual spells/powers stronger than the sum of the parts. Dragon wrought Kobolds. Biffonicus' example of magical training + versatile spellcaster to cast like a wizard.

I agree that book choice is something of an indicator. Low op will have few books or minimal understanding of the books. Use of large numbers or really rare books is some indicator of optimization level, but only because it shows a lot of system mastery and a desire to find the very best options for a character.

A sorcerer who picked time stop and astral projection for his 9ths would be mid op probably. He may or may not have been aiming at that particular combination, but he has (by luck or skill) avoided trap spells, and appears to understand basic concepts like action economy and utility in spell selection.

Chronos

2013-09-17, 11:48 AM

I agree that book choice is something of an indicator. Low op will have few books or minimal understanding of the books. Use of large numbers or really rare books is some indicator of optimization level, but only because it shows a lot of system mastery and a desire to find the very best options for a character.
On the other hand, you can also get "I want access to Complete Warrior so I can take Monkey Grip", or "I want Book of Exalted Deeds for Vow of Poverty".

Gnaeus

2013-09-17, 12:07 PM

On the other hand, you can also get "I want access to Complete Warrior so I can take Monkey Grip", or "I want Book of Exalted Deeds for Vow of Poverty".

Very true. It isn't what resources you have in play, it is what you do with them. To look at it a different way, you could have 3 characters with lots of books available, at 3 completely different levels of optimization. The real test is the thought process and system mastery.

Lans

2013-09-19, 02:13 PM

Gnaeus

2013-09-19, 04:09 PM

I believe it was decided that all the noncaster/manifester/etc classes of T3 and down won't make a T2.

So... basically a Rogue//Barbarian//Fighter with some attached junk? Yeah, I'll grant you that. I mean you basically remove all of T3 and most of T4 with noncaster/manifester/etc. Although I guess it depends a lot on what the etc. means in that context. I suspect that a Warlock//DFA//Swordsage//Warblade//Crusader//Truenamer could probably rival or surpass a Favored Soul by most standards of measurement, but I suspect some or all of those are "etc".

Lans

2013-09-19, 04:33 PM

So... basically a Rogue//Barbarian//Fighter with some attached junk? Yeah, I'll grant you that.
I don't recall exactly what was excluded, I thought the initiators were in.

I mean you basically remove all of T3 and most of T4 with noncaster/manifester/etc. Although I guess it depends a lot on what the etc. means in that context. I suspect that a Warlock//DFA//Swordsage//Warblade//Crusader//Truenamer could probably rival or surpass a Favored Soul by most standards of measurement, but I suspect some or all of those are "etc".
I think Warlock, DFA, and turenamer were part of the etc

JoshuaZ

2013-09-19, 07:23 PM

I believe it was decided that all the noncaster/manifester/etc classes of T3 and down won't make a T2.
The lower tier casters should cover each others weaknesses and have enough innate resources to get access to the broken stuff. Dread Necros were already 1 spell away from T2 and Healers and Truenamers are T2 for a few levels.

What you mean by etc. matters here. Are warlock, binder, factotum in the etc? If so, then you are correct: the remaining set would be highly broken but it wouldn't be T2. However, if one took all the non-cating T3s and below (which include at least, swordsage/warblade/crusader/warlock/binder/factotum/fighter/rogue) is arguably T2. Note that any argument of this sort only uses other classes a tiny bit (For example monk and barbarian are nice, but they don't really do enough to matter from a tier perspective.)

Phaederkiel

2013-09-19, 07:43 PM

Ansem wrote

It expects you to go all the way to 20 with a class which most sane people won't do

jaronK answered:

What ever gave you that idea? The post itself says this isn't true.

JaronK

I think one of the big problems is that the tier system does not come online all at once. For example, at early levels, skillpoints are still something good.
And if your dm puts you on a schedule, mages have not yet possibilities to emulate skills via magic. At early levels, the ability to hit someone with a stick is also more important than later on. I would thus say that at lvl 1, the high tiers should look somewhat like:

tier 1:
Druid, beguiler, swordsage, factotum, bard

tier 2:
Fighter, barbarian, Rogue, cleric, Warblade, crusader

tier 3:
Wizard, Ranger

Tier 4:
Sorc

tier 5:
Monk

While this is probably a line of reason many people will not like, I would be quite interested what you say.
(or do you think I should open a new thread for this?)

Icewraith

2013-09-19, 07:46 PM

The "creating staffs" section is in the custom magic items section, which is for DMs to homebrew new items. What you want to look at instead is the Craft Staff feat, as that delineates player access to said rules:

Compare to wands:

Without that bolded line, you can only create items that already exist in the books. Craft Wand has it, Craft Staff does not.

Hang on, any custom magic staff still has prerequisite spells and caster level requirements as determined by the rules for crafting staffs in the DMG/MiC. If the feat says you can craft any staff you meet the prerequisites for, you can craft ANY staff you meet the prerequisites for. The rules for wands are they way they are because you can only ever have one spell in a wand, but staffs are exponentially more complex.

Otherwise you're claiming that I can't make a Staff of Lightning Bolt and Wind Wall because there's not one in the book, even though the prerequisites are Caster Level 5th (unless Staffs have a higher base CL), can cast Lightning Bolt and Wind Wall, has Craft Staff feat. Just because a particular staff isn't explicitly listed in the DMG doesn't mean that it doesn't have prerequisites as determined by the rules for crafting staffs. Unless there's a RAW version of "any staff" that actually means "the staffs in the DMG and only the staffs in the DMG" I don't think that interpretation is correct.

@phaderkiel you seem to be confusing durability and damage output with versatility. At level one, Wizards and Sorcerers still have potential access to Sleep, Grease, Charm Person, and the level one generic illusion. Good use of any of those spells can outright win many kinds of level 1 encounters. Hitting things with a stick is still only one trick, and therefore solidly T4.

JaronK

2013-09-19, 09:04 PM

I think one of the big problems is that the tier system does not come online all at once. For example, at early levels, skillpoints are still something good.
And if your dm puts you on a schedule, mages have not yet possibilities to emulate skills via magic. At early levels, the ability to hit someone with a stick is also more important than later on. I would thus say that at lvl 1, the high tiers should look somewhat like:

Also addressed in the post: the system is mainly focused on 6-15, but 1-5 are in there as well. So there's a little shifting at the lowest levels.

JaronK

Chronos

2013-09-19, 10:50 PM

You can craft any staff that your DM says exists. A Staff of Lightning and Wind Wall might be approved by your DM, in which case you could make one via either Craft Staff or Ancestral Relic, and its price would be by the formula... Or your DM might say no, in which case you can't make one by any means.

nedz

2013-09-20, 04:08 AM

Ansem wrote
tier 1:
Druid, beguiler, swordsage, factotum, bard

tier 2:
Fighter, barbarian, Rogue, cleric, Warblade, crusader

tier 3:
Wizard, Ranger

Tier 4:
Sorc

tier 5:
Monk

While this is probably a line of reason many people will not like, I would be quite interested what you say.
(or do you think I should open a new thread for this?)

Sorcerer 1 > Wizard 1
You have more spells per day from a similar sized selection.
Obviously this depends upon spell selection, but that's always true for casters. At level 2 they are about the same. From level 3 onwards Wizard > Sorcerer.

Also: Monk 1 and 2 are probably the strongest Monk levels. They have more feats than Fighter and reasonable skill points.

Phaederkiel

2013-09-20, 04:17 AM

Sorcerer 1 > Wizard 1
You have more spells per day from a similar sized selection.
Obviously this depends upon spell selection, but that's always true for casters. At level 2 they are about the same. From level 3 onwards Wizard > Sorcerer.

Also: Monk 1 and 2 are probably the strongest Monk levels. They have more feats than Fighter and reasonable skill points.

well, the wizard vs. sorc might just be me thinking about abrupt jaunt, which is such a strong defensive mechanic, that it makes the wizard into a strong tanking character, even if he cannot do much elsewhise.
But I am not sure if this is the same optimisation level as I applied to the rest of the classes. A pouncing whirling frenzy barb is arguably the strongest character at lvl 1, for instance.

as for monks: you might be right. But they are still MAD as hell.

Chronos

2013-09-20, 08:44 AM

The strongest characters at level 1 are:
Dragonfire Adept (with any build at all, but Entangling Exhalation is a really good idea)
Druid (with any build at all)
Incarnate (with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and some source of essentia from a race or feat, both of which are good choices anyway)
Warlock (with the Summon Swarm invocation, which is great at low level but quickly becomes irrelevant)

Honorable mention goes to the Crusader (with the healing stance or strike). Everyone else basically sucks at first level.

Roguenewb

2013-09-20, 12:53 PM

Can I say something wierd and creepy? I love reading JaronK post about the tier system. He's (she's?) always got a perfectly valid response that keeps the system proven correct and logically sound. There is absolutely zero sarcasm in that statement, it's damn impressive. Amazing initial post all those years ago, and just gets more and more true everyday. Hats off JaronK. /fanboying :smallredface:

As has been said, tier 2 has access to the broken stuff. We can all name it, the Litany of the Wizard: glitterdust/web/alter self early, polymorph/enervation/planar binding mid, shapechange/ice assassin/clone/ astral projection late. Sorcs, as the archetypal tier 2, can do that. They can learn most of those spells. But not all. If the campaign needs Glitterdust->polymorph->time stop to break, and they pick glitterdust->binding->projection, well, then they aren't breaking those parts of the game. The wizard just goes and finds it.

If a sorc picks shivering touch as their broken mega-monster disabler, and this game would be better with Ray of Stupidity, they're out of luck. Not tier 1s, the wizard just switches over.

Now the threes, generally can't do this. Beguillers get glitterdust, dread necros get enervation, but no tier 3 or lower gets any access to the late game spells that are really broken (DN gets binding, yes, but they need to kill and reanimate due to lack of magic circle). A carefully picked arcane disciple stocked with the perfect domain in sync with wisdom boosting items is not the same op-fu as a baseline sorcerer picking awesome spells. The comparison is a sorc who carefully goes shopping for knowstones to augment with all the good spells they didn't pick. In that scenario is your t3 still comparable? They've become t2 pretty clearly, one or more awesome tricks, but not all. Unfortunately, at the same time, the sorc has hit tier 1, he has all the tricks.

Gnaeus

2013-09-20, 01:11 PM

A carefully picked arcane disciple stocked with the perfect domain in sync with wisdom boosting items is not the same op-fu as a baseline sorcerer picking awesome spells.

Yes, it is. Exactly the same. A beguiler who does not expand his spell list is on the same opti fu level as a sorcerer who learns burning hands, flaming sphere and fireball because doing damage is cool. This is the No System Mastery level of play. Anyone who is savvy enough to realize how to pick a sorcerer spell list that we would call decent is savvy enough to realize that the only weakness of the T3 caster is limited spells known and to take basic steps to address that.

When I think about the amount of work I have to do to make a sorc that functions as a full caster, it is a lot more than I would do with a beguiler. With a beguiler, upon creation, I ask myself how I plan to expand my spell list, and either put a decent stat in Wis and pick a god with convenient domains, or begin the process of aiming towards the PRCs I want (with feats and skill points). I already have a good selection of Buffs, Debuffs, divenations, Will SoLs, and Crowd control. I just need to plot whether I need Fort/Ref SoLs or direct damage and how I plan to get them.

With a Sorcerer, on the other hand, I have to make a spell list 4-6 levels ahead, so that I know which spells I will be using for my fort/will/ref save or lose, what my utility and defense spells will be, what my damage and buff spells are, and which spells I will train out as they become obsolete. I have to think about things like "will I take Fly, or wait 4 levels for Overland Flight". And always with an eye to keeping myself from being made useless if my high level spell of choice is inapplicable.

The comparison is a sorc who carefully goes shopping for knowstones to augment with all the good spells they didn't pick. In that scenario is your t3 still comparable?

Your shopping scenario is more akin to a Beguiler who buys 2 dozen highly situational scrolls that are rarely used I win buttons, some of which are not even on the Sor/Wiz list, and then gets a runestaff to add some more versatility in daily play. Without relying on Magic Mart, the DN or beguiler can expand their spells known far easier than the sorc. (With magic mart, the beguiler gains even more ground when UMD says hi.)

JaronK

2013-09-20, 01:51 PM

Roguenewb

2013-09-20, 02:18 PM

Yes, it is. Exactly the same. A beguiler who does not expand his spell list is on the same opti fu level as a sorcerer who learns burning hands, flaming sphere and fireball because doing damage is cool. This is the No System Mastery level of play. Anyone who is savvy enough to realize how to pick a sorcerer spell list that we would call decent is savvy enough to realize that the only weakness of the T3 caster is limited spells known and to take basic steps to address that.

Your shopping scenario is more akin to a Beguiler who buys 2 dozen highly situational scrolls that are rarely used I win buttons, some of which are not even on the Sor/Wiz list, and then gets a runestaff to add some more versatility in daily play. Without relying on Magic Mart, the DN or beguiler can expand their spells known far easier than the sorc. (With magic mart, the beguiler gains even more ground when UMD says hi.)

Choosing your entire diety and character outlook to get some spells 1/day is not basic character use.

Gnaeus

2013-09-20, 02:25 PM

Choosing your entire diety and character outlook to get some spells 1/day is not basic character use.

Its still a ton easier than planning a good sorc spell list.

JoshuaZ

2013-09-20, 04:06 PM

Choosing your entire diety and character outlook to get some spells 1/day is not basic character use.

This seems like a point that should get repeated and expanded on. Not all deities exist in all settings. And not all deities fit with all spell-caster character concepts. Part of what makes T2 and T1 noteworthy is that for many (although certainly not all) they get the same things without having to rely on specific setting material or having to make a character who fits some specific set of ideas. A sorcerer can pick up any set of spells on the sorc/wiz list while being any species, worshipping any deity, and being of any alignment. For many of the more interesting spells, one of the T3 casters will have to fix their character around reasons to get those spells.

Can I say something wierd and creepy? I love reading JaronK post about the tier system. He's (she's?) always got a perfectly valid response that keeps the system proven correct and logically sound. There is absolutely zero sarcasm in that statement, it's damn impressive. Amazing initial post all those years ago, and just gets more and more true everyday. Hats off JaronK. /fanboying :smallredface:

Yeah, I don't know what JaronK does professionally, but I suspect he'd make a very good scientist or mathematician. Careful reasoning, original and useful categorization, and explained in careful detail.

Urpriest

2013-09-20, 05:51 PM

Hang on, any custom magic staff still has prerequisite spells and caster level requirements as determined by the rules for crafting staffs in the DMG/MiC. If the feat says you can craft any staff you meet the prerequisites for, you can craft ANY staff you meet the prerequisites for. The rules for wands are they way they are because you can only ever have one spell in a wand, but staffs are exponentially more complex.

Otherwise you're claiming that I can't make a Staff of Lightning Bolt and Wind Wall because there's not one in the book, even though the prerequisites are Caster Level 5th (unless Staffs have a higher base CL), can cast Lightning Bolt and Wind Wall, has Craft Staff feat. Just because a particular staff isn't explicitly listed in the DMG doesn't mean that it doesn't have prerequisites as determined by the rules for crafting staffs. Unless there's a RAW version of "any staff" that actually means "the staffs in the DMG and only the staffs in the DMG" I don't think that interpretation is correct.

As others have said, you can't make a Staff of Lightning Bolt and Wind Wall because that's not a Staff, that's some random magic item you made up that happens to follow the same pricing formula. Staffs are the things with specific statblocks listed, unlike wands, scrolls, and potions which are by definition containers for particular spells. If it doesn't have a statblock listed it's not "any staff" in the same way that you can't just make a monster using the custom monster guidelines in the MM and expect to turn into it with Polymorph because Polymorph lets you turn into any (with certain restrictions) creature.