Surprise round and (reacting to) spellcasting

[BerronBrightaxe]

Playgrounders.. your wisdom on the following please...

I have an encounter coming up. This encounter will probably start as a discussion/negotiation. When the BBEG decideds he doesn't get his way, he will attack the PC's without (further) warning. The attack will start in the surprise round with a quickened spell and a regular spell.

Can you cast a quickened spell and a regular spell in the surprise round?


PHB, p. 137
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round (see Standard Actions, page 139). You can also take free actions during the surprise round, at the DM’s discretion. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Complete Adventurer, p. 137/138
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn, without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action at any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don’t cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description in the Player’s Handbook). In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action (such as critical strike) is a swift action.

Emphasizes are mine.


Considering the spoiler section, I would argue that you can. Can anyone confirm or debunk this?

Second question: Is there a way they can be aware of the spellcasting so they are not considered flat-footed (and thus can take a action in the surprise round)? A spellcraft lets you know what spell is cast the moment it is cast, not let you know a spell is going to be cast.

Cheers,
Berron

[aeauseth]

First you need to determine if it is really a surprise round. If they are communicating with a friendly NPC or ally, and that ally suddenly attacks, then "maybe" it is a surprise round. If they are negotiating with an unknown NPC, then the party may be wary, and thus granting the NPC a surprise round seems harsh. In both situations the party is "aware" of the opponent, so by RAW isn't a surprise. Review the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) for Initiative and Surprise.

Consider giving the BBEG a +20 circumstance bonus to his initiative roll instead of a surprise round. This still give the BBEG the ability to act first, giving the feel of a surprise, but not the huge penalty of a surprise round.

A surprise round consists of a standard action. So yes, you can cast a spell as a standard action, and a quickened spell as a swift action. All within the surprise round.

Remember that at the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. So if you take my +20 advice, the party would still be flat footed against the BBEG's first attack.

[rot42]

The Rules Compendium is much clearer that you unambiguously are allowed to take otherwise legal Swift actions during a round that you are restricted to a single Standard or Move action.

Just being aware that a spell is being cast will not allow them to act in a surprise round any more than would being able to see the Rogue's rapier as it stabs them. A Ring of Spell-Battle (CArc 144) grants a character the ability to sense nearby spellcasting that would help against a hidden foe. If your PCs are talking to a known enemy, I would consider the PCs generally too on guard for a surprise round to occur. If they consider the BBEG neutral or friendly for some reason, a Sense Motive check might be required.

[BerronBrightaxe]

Thank you, aeauseth and rot42 for helping me out. :smallsmile:

Considering the situation I'm going without the surpriseround, but giving the BBEG a circumstance bonus to his initiative.

[Qc Storm]

Typically, as a DM, I try to avoid these sorts of things. In particular, "The BBEG suddenly becomes aggressive and has a surprise round".

As the DM, you are mostly responsible for the flow and the Battle/talky-talky separation. Your players are nice enough to not "surprise" the BBEG during his monologue. Using it against the players doesn't feel right.

Plus, if they are aware they are discussing with the Evil Baddude, they are most likely on their guard.

[sketchtb]

I have an encounter coming up. This encounter will probably start as a discussion/negotiation. When the BBEG decideds he doesn't get his way, he will attack the PC's without (further) warning.

If I was face to face with the BBEG you can be sure I'd be twitchy... I'd be tempted to give them a sense motive before giving him a circumstantial bonus. If they're aware of who he is, weapons would be drawn and the adrenaline would be running. Just my two cents...

[BerronBrightaxe]

Typically, as a DM, I try to avoid these sorts of things. In particular, "The BBEG suddenly becomes aggressive and has a surprise round".

As the DM, you are mostly responsible for the flow and the Battle/talky-talky separation. Your players are nice enough to not "surprise" the BBEG during his monologue. Using it against the players doesn't feel right.

Plus, if they are aware they are discussing with the Evil Baddude, they are most likely on their guard.


If I was face to face with the BBEG you can be sure I'd be twitchy... I'd be tempted to give them a sense motive before giving him a circumstantial bonus. If they're aware of who he is, weapons would be drawn and the adrenaline would be running. Just my two cents...

The PC's not only going to talk with the BBEG, but also try to blackmail him. This will be the second time the BBEG is going to be blackmailed in a short period of time (the first time was by someone else). So the BBEG won't be 'very happy' about it.

I usually seperate battle from RP, but in this case I don't see an option to avoid it. The fact that the PC's are nice enough not to attack the BBEG, doesn't mean he returns the favor. I'm aware the players probably feel betrayed, but I prefer to stay true to the story/(N)PC's then to my own preferences as a DM. It also gives them the opportunity for some sweet justice/revenge down the line. The BBEG is meant as a reoccuring character/constant threat just past the horizon.

@ sketchtb: I will give all the PC's a sense motive check. How higher the check the higher the circumstance bonus they will receive for initiative; a reward for the right 'feel' for the BBEG.

[Gwendol]

What if they ready actions against him?

[Khedrac]

What if they ready actions against him?
Technically they can't - you have to be in initiative to ready an action.

That said, I don't see how the BBEG can get a surprise round if he attacks from conversation. Someone you are talking to deciding to attack si the classic "roll for initiative" situation.

Also remember that if you allow a surprise round or give the BBEG any initiative bonus for the set-up, next time the PCs suddenly attack from conversation they are entitled to the same bonus... If it's against a new BBEG then it could well die in the surprise round just because of this BBEG getting one.

[Gwendol]

That's what I mean: it's not like the two sides are unaware. I can't see how the opposition can be flatfooted here.