Ironsoul Forgemaster advice?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I just started a new campaign. Coming in last, I was asked to play a skillmonkey type. I said "OK, how 'bout an Incarnate?" After explaining what that meant, I received a "yeah, cool, go for it!" So, I rolled up a Dwarf Incarnate 4, going for Ironsoul Forgemaster, and... well, truth be told, I'm a bit worried about offense. I know I can be tanky as all get-out, and/or get any skill I want, but I've never seen or played an Incarnate in a game before, and wanted to check to see if there were any tricks I should start checking for. I've read a couple of handbooks.

Right now, I've got Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Heavy Armor Proficiency (because dwarves, dammit!) for feats, and most of my skill points in craft and knowledge skills. Stats are 18 Str, 11 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 11 Cha. I'm Lawful Neutral, since it matters.

At the moment, my plan for combat is to shape Incarnum Weapon and/or bind Lightning Gauntlets for damage, with Vitality Belt for added toughness.

So... any other feats I should look as a melee incarnate? Ways to keep doing damage as the level cranks up? I'm not looking too far ahead, since I doubt the campaign will advance that high, but advice for levels 5-10 would be nice.

Thanks, all.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, I would take 3 levels of dwarf paragon for proficiency and better bab. This will free up feats for you to take power attack and shocktrooper earlier. It also grants +2 con, and an extra boost to your saves.

This turns you into an ubercharger who carries around your own concealment (fellmist robes). Also, power attack on a melee touch attack meld works well.

You are going to want to make your own weapon, as you can only use ironsoul forgemaster abilities with stuff you make, so you drop incarnate weapon.

Once you get into forgemaster, you are looking at that blade meld. Ask your DM if investing essence into your blade is the same as investing in a soulbound weapon. By the wording of the two abilities, they should stack and that will be awesome.

If you already invested in knowledge skills, knowledge devotion is nice.

[Psyren]

Combine with Battlesmith; enjoy your CL45 weapons and armor :smalltongue:

Cheese aside, the main benefit to IF is how fast you unlock your Heart Chakra, so focus on melds that make good use of it. (There's a really good one in Dragon Magazine that gives you the swarm subtype.)

[Waker]

I would consider a dip in Warblade or Crusader for some weapon proficiencies, BAB and maneuvers to give you more offensive options. The other upside is that you can rely on maneuvers to replace the lack of iterative attacks due to your low BAB. To compensate for your BAB, you might look at Incarnate Avatar, Incarnate Weapon or Lucky Dice.

[Talionis]

I would consider a dip in Warblade or Crusader for some weapon proficiencies, BAB and maneuvers to give you more offensive options. The other upside is that you can rely on maneuvers to replace the lack of iterative attacks due to your low BAB. To compensate for your BAB, you might look at Incarnate Avatar, Incarnate Weapon or Lucky Dice.

I'll second a dip into Tome of Battle class to get some combat maneuvers that help you to compensate for lack of BAB.

Charging is an option, but Power Attack really won't be since you don't have a lot of BAB to donate.

You can keep the Incarnum Weapon till late because its 9th level that you get a bonus to weapons you craft, it sounds like you may never get there.


Person Man gave me the following advice on Incarnates:

General Incarnum Tricks:

90% of the content can be accessed and used effectively with Feats (Shape Soulmeld, the various Open Chakra Feats, and anything that grants essentia). The exceptions are; Totem Chakra (Totemst 2), things that depend on meldshaper level (Necrocarnum Circlet and Vitality Belt), things that require a and Heart/Soul chakra binds (varies).
Share Soulmelds feat: Allows your Animal Companion or Familiar to share the benefits of your soulmelds, basically doubling the usefulness and power of many of your soulmelds.
1 level of Necrocarnate prestige class gives you 1 essentia for 24 hours whenever you kill something. Since essentia fuels pretty much everything and the average adventurer kills tons of enemies, this can be hugely potent. With the Heart of Incarnum Feat, you also gain 1 hit point for every point of essentia you have.



Totemist Tricks:

LOTS of natural attacks which are easy to boost and Pounce.
You can easily boost many commonly used Skills by +6 to +10 for minimal effort.
Super Grapple checks via Girillion Arms.
Blink Shirt bound to Totem is at will, move action Dimension Door. Thus you can use a Standard Action, then Dimension Door, EVERY TURN. You never run out of Power Points, and you never have to "refresh" a maneuver. (And you can do it at level 2).
Frost Helm bound to Totem gives you at will area of effect Stun ability (Remember that enemies also drop their weapons when Stunned).
Gorgon Mask bound to Totem gives you at will Stone to Flesh. (Only effects 1 enemy and lasts one round, but that's long enough for an ally to Sunder that enemy, so it's basically Save or Lose).
Shadow Mantle bound to Shoulders gives you (weird, poorly worded) continuous Greater Invisibility.
Phase Cloak bound to Shoulders makes you Ethereal when you move. (Avoid AoO, can move through walls, flight, etc).
Shedu Crown bound to Crown gives Telepathy, which is useful by itself, and also qualifies you for the uber Mindsight Feat (Lords of Madness).
Brood Keeper's Heart (Dragon Magazine 350 pg 86) bound to Heart gives you the Swarm template.
Various breath weapon options. If you're also a Dragonborn with the Entangling Exhalation Feat (Races of the Dragon), they're worth considering.
Manticore Belt bound to Totem gives you a fairly decent ranged attack.
Many of your coolest abilities kick in at level 1 or 2. This includes various situational things which are very useful at level 1, like Trample, Die Hard, the equivalent of heavy armor, immunity to Flanking, and most of the natural weapon options.



Incarnate Tricks:

In general, Incarnates are insanely difficult to kill, and have access to pretty much every defense in the game.
You can easily boost almost any Skill by +6 to +12 for minimal effort, including Use Magic Device (allowing you to auto-succeed on most UMD checks at low levels).
Necrocarnum Circlet bound to Crown: Your most powerful and important ability. At will, with no cost, you can animate any dead creature with hit dice up to your Incarnate meldshaper level, into a Necrocarnum Zombie (much better then a normal zombie). Basically gives you a second Tier 4 character to control to use as a mount, tackle dummy, door opener, etc, except that you don't have to worry about them dying.
Theraputic Mantle: Increases the effectiveness of any "spell or effect that heals hit point damage" on you by Spell Level + (2*essentia invested). The overlooked trick with this soulmeld is that it specifically works on any effect that heals hit points, and not just spells. Which means you can stack it with Divine Spirit, a Vampiric Weapon, Fast Healing, etc, making you very hard to kill if you can stack a couple of them each round.
Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/magic. That's DR 4/magic at level 1, and DR 6/magic at level 3, and DR 8/magic at level 6.
Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) retributive fire damage whenever someone hits you. That's 2d6 at level 1 (enough to kill most enemies who hit you), 3d6 at level 3, and so on.
Spellward Shirt: Well scaled Spell Resistance. Screw you casters.
Flame Cincture bound to Waist: Fairly high Fire Resistance. Whenever prevent Fire damage, you can shoot it off as a Swift Action ranged touch attack the next turn. Ally dumps Fireball on top of you and enemies, deals 30 Fire damage to everyone, you resist damage, next round you deal another 30 Fire damage to one target.
Planar Ward: Immunity to mental control. When bound to your Throat, extraplanar creatures (ie, all Summoned creatures, demons, elementals, outsiders, some undead, etc) must Save or be Banished when they strike you.
Vitality Belt: Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. Not much at low levels, but by mid-high levels it gets up into 100+ range.
Wind Cloak bound to Shoulders chakra: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/- against all ranged attacks, and you can Deflect Arrows 1 + essentia invested times per round without needing a hand free, basically making you immune to many ranged attacks.
Fellmist Robe: Scaled Concealment (up to 50%) against all attacks made from at least 5 feet away from you, or at any distance if bound to Soul.
Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge. Evasion when bound to Feet.
Incarnum Radiance (class ability) + Incarnate Avatar + Incarnate Weapon + Necrocarnum Weapon + etc: At mid-high levels when you have more essentia, it's not hard to stack a bunch of different damage and/or to-hit combos, keeping up with and occasionally surpassing Power Attack. Google "Incarnum by the Numbers" if you want to see the math. You can eventually also share the benefits of Incarnum Radiance with allies.
Elder Spirit and/or Mage's Spectacles: UMD. Allows you to basically auto-succeed on checks as early as level 3.
Dissolving Spittle: Ranged touch attack that you can use every round with a damage output better then a Warlock's Eldridge Blast.
Arcane Focus bound to Throat. When you damage someone with a spell, they must also Save (using your soulmeld's DC) or be Dazed. Find a Swift Action spell that deals damage.
Illusion Veil: Adds to the duration of Illusion spells. So things like Swift Invisibility is now Invisibility that you can cast as a Swift Action.


Soulborn Tricks:

Don't play a Soulborn. They're terrible. Consider a homebrew fix instead.
The two Soulborn only soulmeld worth considering are Mauling Gauntlets (bonus to Strength checks) and Thunderstep Boots (bonus damage on Charge attacks, when bound to Feet enemies damaged on Charge must Save or be Stunned). If you want them, take the Shape Soulmeld Feat.

More Advice on Incarnates: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303502

[Waker]

Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/magic. That's DR 4/magic at level 1, and DR 6/magic at level 3, and DR 8/magic at level 6.
At low levels this can be tremendously effective if you take Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat. A 3rd level Incarnate could have DR/8 magic, which isn't anything to sneeze at.

[Psyren]

I'm seeing suggestions in this thread for Astral Vambraces, Lightning Gauntlets, Lucky Dice, Incarnate Weapon etc. Keep in mind that IF doesn't actually unlock your Hands chakra so you will need a feat or spell to do that.

[Waker]

I'm seeing suggestions in this thread for Astral Vambraces, Lightning Gauntlets, Lucky Dice, Incarnate Weapon etc. Keep in mind that IF doesn't actually unlock your Hands chakra so you will need a feat or spell to do that.

Not really, he already said he's a 4th level Incarnate, so his Hand Chakra is already open. Besides the chakra bind isn't necessary for all of them. The hand bind for Astral Vambraces for instance is relatively underwhelming unless you build for it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

While I thank you for the thoughts, I'm looking for offensive strategies. Defense as an Incarnate is easy.

[Talionis]

The real advantage to Astral Vambraces, (Found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) if bound to your arms you get a free ability from the Astral Construct Menu A. The bonus can be changed each day when you renew your soulbinds.

Menu A includes a lot of good feats:

Buff (Ex)
Celerity (Ex)
Cleave (Ex)
Deflection (Ex)
Fly (Ex)
Improved Bull Rush (Ex)
Improved Slam Attack (Ex)
Mobility (Ex)
Power Attack (Ex)
Resistance (Ex)
Swim (Ex)
Trip (Ex)


A lot of these save you a feat slot and allow you to change what you want to do on a daily basis. Flying not attached to your feet bind is very good. Cleave and Power Attack and Trip all viable offensive moves. The DR is just icing on the cake.

[Talionis]

One level of Wizard and Share Soulmeld Feat. Dissolving Spittle. Allows you to attack two targets per turn. Damage at basically twice what a Warlock can do. Your familiar should be pretty tough too because it can also benefit from Vitality Belt and other good defensive Soulmelds you are running. Even if you decide to do something else with your attack action, your familiar can use the Dissolving Spittle to attack and add to your damage.

Another thought is two level dip in Totemist to get an offensive Soulmeld that isn't based on Soulmeld level. Girrillian arms comes to mind. I think you can argue it will eventually be fit from the Irosoul Forgemaster weapon ability. But others may have better Totemist melds that are good and some may not need the Totem chakra to be effective.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While I thank you for the thoughts, I'm looking for offensive strategies. Defense as an Incarnate is easy.

Well, you can always pick up the Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper feat combo, maybe dip Barbarian for pounce, and you'd have some offense in fairly short order...

Or you can simply focus on lockdown. Try Improved Trip and maybe Knock-Down. Ironsoul Forgemasters are great tanks and good at battlefield control.

Unfortunately, incarnates really aren't well suited to actual damage output, much as they are useful for a wide variety of other things.

[Talionis]

Ironsoul Forgemaster's 9th level weapon ability to Daze is pretty good at controlling a battlefield. I just always try to find ways to get more attacks and with such low BAB, even Two Weapon Fighting isn't optimal.

I thought of one level dip in Master Thrower to get Palm Throw which essentially doubles your attacks. The more attacks you get the more even little bonuses like Blue Steel Bracers or Sighting Gloves can be. Divine Power is nice in this kind of build to recover BAB.

I also thought of one level dip in Binder, two levels of Unearthed Arcana's: Bloodline Levels (I know they have been a source of cheese, but and are not well ruled upon) of say Fire Elemental and then Improved Binding Feat to bind Paimon with only loosing one level of Meldshaping. Paimon gives

Weapon Finesse,
Whirlwind Attack Feat,
+4(?) to Dex, and
Once every five rounds Dance of Death (where you can make one attack against every person you run past)

Incarnates/Totemist are very good at getting +landspeed. Look at Dread Carapace bound to feet for ridiculous speed bonus that can coincide with your ability to Dance of Death. Also adding to this could be late levels of Swordsage to get 6th level Desert Wind maneuvers like another Dance of Death attack and an attack that does 12d6 Fire Damage to everyone you can run around in a turn. If you take the Necrocarnum acolyte feat (can't be Good to take it) then you can get some profane bonuses to damage that stack for each hit you make and can build up much like Blood in the Water Stance can build up in a high critical hit build. While Blood in the Water might be appealing if you had high critical weapons, Shadow Blade Feat can add Dex to Damage if you can be in a Shadow Hand Stance such as Assassin Stance adding 2d6 sneak attack damage or the 1st level stance that grants concealment while moving. Now of course this makes you very very good at hurting a lot of weak enemies but not so good at single target enemies.

I also was thinking about a Sun School Feat Totemist that can use Blink Shirt every round to add an additional attack by teleporting. But I got stuck trying to get enough attacks to make it worth it.

Incarnates really don't have a lot of inherent damage potential since their damage buffs are small and they don't by themselves have many ways to increase the number of attacks.



Or you can simply focus on lockdown. Try Improved Trip and maybe Knock-Down. Ironsoul Forgemasters are great tanks and good at battlefield control.


Would the Trip Build help to add attacks?

[Vaz]

Totemist 2 with Double Totem Chakra improves your offensive power; Sphinx claws for pounce and all sorts of other Totem Chakra goodies.

[Talionis]

Grod, what did you finally decide to do for offense?

I'm curious because I enjoy playing Incarnates, but I too have had trouble figuring out how to be offensive in better tier campaigns.

In case it wasn't said from second level on you get the meld shaper level zombie who is at least somewhat intelligent. You are also a crafter as an Ironsoul Forgemaster, but as an incarnate you don't need to put too much in the way of items so you can give some to your zombie, plus as an armored you can easily fluff making it fit new Zombie targets.