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Proven_Paradox
2006-12-25, 12:32 AM
These are just a few things I've been thinking about house-ruling into my games to balance things out a bit. As I see it, Clerics and Druids are the most powerful classes in the game (I don't plan to ever go into Epic levels as is, so don't start talking about epic spell; I know). And with races, the Half-Elves and Half-Orcs really get the shaft. So, tell me what you think about these alterations.

First off, everyone, including non-spellcasters get to use wands and scrolls. The Use Magic Device skill vanishes. This gives pure-fighters a bit of a leg up, and diminishes the relative power of casters and UMD rogues.

Next, for the cleric:
Lose heavy armor
Downgrade to bad fort save progression
Lose Knowledge (History) CS*
Gain Sense Motive CS*
Divine Power: Add a material cost of 250 gp worth of a rare wine imbibed during casting. This wine does not cause intoxication when used to cast this spell.
Righteous Might: Add a material cost of a 300 gp divine focus carved from a rare stone that shatters during the casting. This focus is the same no matter what deity one follows: a disc with a runic symbol that means "strength" carved into it.

*I did this simply because I think Sense Motive fits the cleric flavor better than Knowledge (History). I didn't like that change from 3.0 to 3.5, so I get rid of it.

Now, for Druids:
Lose medium armor, shield, and scimitar proficiency
Lose venom immunity
Lose A Thousand Faces
Wild Shape: Gain only the natural attacks of the assumed form, not the improved physical ability scores
Bad fort save progression


To make half-elves a little more attractive to my players, I think it'd be enough to add the skill point bonuses of a human. 4 extra skill points at level one, and an extra skill point at every additional level, inherited from their human parent.

To make humans still useful in face of the half-elves getting one of thier abilities, they may choose one skill. This skill is considered a class skill, regardless of thier class(es).

Lastly, I hate half-orcs as written. Just completely hate them. So, this is just a complete redo of that race. In my campaign, I think I'm just going to use this as orcs and make them a player race, rather than half-orcs.

+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence orcs/half-orcs are naturally strong, but tends to be duller than other races.
-2 racial penalty to bluff, diplomacy, gather information, and +2 racial bonus to intimidate, due to their beastly and ugly appearance. This does not apply to other orcs/half-orcs.
+2 racial bonus to spot, search, and listen due to keen eyes and ears.
Bonus feat: Toughness. Orcs/half-orcs are naturally hardy, and it takes more to bring most orcs/half-orcs down.
Weapon familiarity: Orcish maul. Orcs/half-orcs may treat orcish mauls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1736318#post1736318) as martial weapons rather than exotic.

[edit]
All right, I've got a few more things I want to add here. Mostly a few goodies for melee classes.

Fighter gains the following--

Lesser Fighting Stances (Ex):
At 5th level, a fighter has learned how to change their focus in battle, shifting between defensive, offensive, and strategic fighting stances. During combat, the fighter my choose to use one of the following fighting stances:

Lesser Fighting stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit|Penalty
Defensive |+1 AC, +1 to damage rolls|-1 to attack rolls
Offensive |+1 to damage rolls, +1 to attack rolls|-1 AC
Strategic |+1 AC, +1 to attack rolls|-1 to damage rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat.

Greater Fighting Stances (Ex):
At 13th level, a fighter has reached a new level of combat prowess, and may choose from any of the following fighting stances.

Greater Fighting Stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit|Penalty
Balanced |+1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls|None
Greater Defensive |+2 AC, +2 to damage rolls|-1 to attack rolls
Greater Offensive |+2 to damage rolls, +2 to attack rolls|-1 AC
Greater Strategic |+2 AC, +2 to attack rolls|-1 to damage rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat. Greater fighting stances supercede and replace lesser fighting stances.

Superior Fighting Stances (Ex):

At 20th level, the fighter has become a master of armed combat of all kinds, and knows how to adapt to different circumstances on the battlefield in ways that can astound lesser combatants.

Superior Fighting Stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit
Superior Balanced |+2 AC, +2 to damage rolls, +2 to attack rolls
Superior Defensive |+3 AC, +3 to damage rolls
Superior Offensive |+3 to damage rolls, +3 to attack rolls
Superior Strategic |+3 AC, +3 to attack rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat. Superior fighting stances supercedes and replaces greater fighting stances.

**The fighter bonuses I've listed here are modified from Roderick's Combat Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30456) feat tree.

Barbarians will gain the following--

Heedless rage (Ex):
At 9th level, a barbarian becomes so focused while raging that their bodies simply fail to notice damage. While raging, the barbarian gains an additional 3/- DR which stacks with the damage reduction they normally have. This improves to 4/- DR at 13th level and to 5/- DR at 18th level.

Monks will gain the following--

Ki Charges (Su):
A monk gains a number of Ki charges equal to half of his/her monk level multiplied by his/her wisdom mod (minimum 1/two levels, round UP instead of down). If s/he runs out of ki charges, s/he loses his/her wisdom bonus to AC. Ki charges recharge after a full night's sleep (or in the case of characters who do not need to sleep, at least six hours of rest).

Ki Reach (Su):
A monk can use ki charges to make his/her unarmed strikes ranged. When a monk attacks, s/he may use ki charges to increase his/her reach. Each charge used increases his/her reach by 10 feet. This improves to 30 ft/charge at level 9th level. These ranged attacks may be full-attacks, but cannot benefit from flurry of blows. Skills such as stunning fist and quivering palm may be delivered with ki reach.

Ki Step (Su):
At 12th level, a monk may use two ki charges to use dimension door as the spell. This ability replaces Abundant Step.

Ki Form (Su):
At 19th level, a monk may use three ki charges to assume an ethereal state, as though using the spell etherealness. Each round spent in this state costs the monk one ki charge, and if s/he runs out of charges this ability immediately ends.

Rangers get--

Animal Companion (Ex):
Rangers may have an animal companion at first level, and ranger animal companions improve to be the same level as that of a druid of the same level. Ranger and druid levels stack for determining the level of a character's animal companion.

Combat Style Supremacy (Ex):
At 19th level, Rangers have attained a mastery of their combat style that borders on perfection.

If they choose the archery combat style at second level, they gain the following benefits. The ranger may now use rapid-shot with no penalty. S/he may also use two many-shots in one round as a full-action, shooting no more than three on each shot (though applying the cumulative penalty separately to each shot). Both shots need-not have the same target.

If they choose the two-weapon fighting combat style at second level, they instead gain the following benefits. The ranger no longer applies any penalty for using two weapons to his primary weapon. If his/her off-hand weapon is light, it also receives no penalty. If his/her off-hand weapon is one-handed, his/her penalty is reduced to -2.

Rogues receive--

Poison Use:
At 12th level, the rogue gains poison use, which functions as the assassin feature of the same name.

Hide in Plain Sight:
At 14th level, the rogue gains hide in plain sight, as the Shadowdancer feature of the same name.

I'm not done with rogue quite yet... They need a capstone really badly.

Paladin, I will probably replace with one of the variants that comes out of the "Paladin Capstone" thread, though I can't be sure until I see all of the results of those great minds' work.


So, yeah. What do you guys think of these changes?

Gralamin
2006-12-25, 01:06 AM
These are just a few things I've been thinking about house-ruling into my games to balance things out a bit. As I see it, Clerics and Druids are the most powerful classes in the game (I don't plan to ever go into Epic levels as is, so don't start talking about epic spell; I know). And with races, the Half-Elves and Half-Orcs really get the shaft. So, tell me what you think about these alterations.

First off, everyone, including non-spellcasters get to use wands and scrolls. The Use Magic Device skill vanishes. This gives pure-fighters a bit of a leg up, and diminishes the relative power of casters and UMD rogues.

Next, for the cleric:
Lose heavy armor
Downgrade to bad fort save progression
Lose Knowledge (History) CS*
Gain Sense Motive CS*
Divine Power: Add a material cost of 250 gp worth of a rare wine imbibed during casting. This wine does not cause intoxication when used to cast this spell.
Righteous Might: Add a material cost of a 300 gp divine focus carved from a rare stone that shatters during the casting. This focus is the same no matter what deity one follows: a disc with a runic symbol that means "strength" carved into it.

*I did this simply because I think Sense Motive fits the cleric flavor better than Knowledge (History). I didn't like that change from 3.0 to 3.5, so I get rid of it.

Now, for Druids:
Lose medium armor and shield proficiency
Lose venom immunity
Lose A Thousand Faces
Wild Shape: Gain only the natural attacks of the assumed form, not the improved physical ability scores
Bad fort save progression


To make half-elves a little more attractive to my players, I think it'd be enough to add the skill point bonuses of a human. 4 extra skill points at level one, and an extra skill point at every additional level, inherited from their human parent.

Lastly, I hate half-orcs as written. Just completely hate them. So, this is just a complete redo of that race. In my campaign, I think I'm just going to use this as orcs and make them a player race, rather than half-orcs.

+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence orcs/half-orcs are naturally strong, but tends to be duller than other races.
-2 racial penalty to bluff, diplomacy, gather information, and +2 racial bonus to intimidate, due to their beastly and ugly appearance. This does not apply to other orcs/half-orcs.
+2 racial bonus to spot, search, and listen due to keen eyes and ears.
Bonus feat: Toughness. Orcs/half-orcs are naturally hardy, and it takes more to bring most orcs/half-orcs down.
Weapon familiarity: Orcish maul. Orcs/half-orcs may treat orcish mauls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1736318#post1736318) as martial weapons rather than exotic.

Pretty Solid changes, however the way you have Half Orcs written, by RAW they are a LA +1 race (due to unbalanced Ability scores, Strength counts as 2 scores for some idiotic reason)

erewhon
2006-12-25, 02:44 AM
Agree on the Half-orc. They suck pretty hard as written, but your re-do is a bit zesty. Balance it out with a simple change, +1 Str, -2 Int. Voila! Done! :)

Or, make it +2 Str, -4 Int.... Make 'em REALLY dull. :(

Strength is just really, really useful, it's tough to get a lot.

magic8BALL
2006-12-25, 07:54 PM
ah... clerics neverd had good fort saves...

by giving half evels more skill points, you eleminate the need for humans, ever. How powerful do you want your races, and what are you doing to humans to get them up to pace with your proposed changes to the 1/2 elf?

Pull out the racial bonuses to search, spot an listen, and give the Darkvision (like they should have). The only keen sence any orc have is see in the dark. Thats the only thing you pulled.

Sure, weapon Familiarity, but with Orc Double Axe, as well as any other orcish weapon you may have.

Druids. Kull them. Full caster, armor and no dead levels? smells PrC to me. These, boys and girls, are the most powerful class ever, and are nothing like the Druids of old. (yes, there were druids in ancient england and france, but they werent sword wielding shapechangers.) Pull the Druid completely, make it a wizard or cleric based PrC. I offer no suggestions on this front, as I detest the druid. How is that anywhere in line with the power of a fighter?

AmberVael
2006-12-25, 09:23 PM
ah... clerics neverd had good fort saves...
Go read the SRD. Its right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) They definitely have good fort saves.


by giving half evels more skill points, you eleminate the need for humans, ever. How powerful do you want your races, and what are you doing to humans to get them up to pace with your proposed changes to the 1/2 elf?
Humans still get the extra feat, which is quite handy. Granted, he might want to give humans a small bonus, but I think they are still worth it.
Perhaps something to craft, profession, or something? Perhaps a +1 insight bonus to one roll per day?


Pull out the racial bonuses to search, spot an listen, and give the Darkvision (like they should have). The only keen sence any orc have is see in the dark. Thats the only thing you pulled.
Thats entirely preference. In his campaign, maybe they have keen senses like elves.
[hr]
Druids? I think you should take out the scimitar proficiency, and maybe light armor too, though I'd leave that last part a bit iffy.

As for the orcs, I think if you pulled the bonus Toughness feat they would be ok. I also might say they only gain a bonus to spot and listen. Say that they are good at noticing and hearing movement, but when trying to search, they just kinda look around at random. It is an intelligence based skill, after all. There is logic to searching that they will be missing.

Proven_Paradox
2006-12-25, 09:30 PM
I'm not necessarily going by RAW. Yes, strength is worth more than the other abilities about 90 percent of the time, but I don't think it's worth twice as much. Hence, my re-done orc/half-orc race has penalties in addition to bonuses roughly equal--or even a bit less, in my opinion--than most of the other PHB races.

Eight Ball:

According to my copy of the PHB, on page thirty-one, on table 3-6 "The Cleric," Clerics get good fort and will saves and poor reflex saves.

I can see where you're coming from on giving half elves extra skill points, but I--and from what I've seen, many others--think half-elves are a rather lame race as written. Humans, on the other hand, get an extra feat at first level, and that gives them versatility that a lot of other races don't have, which fits the flavor perfectly). I'm curious: would you--meaning whoever reads this--add something more to humans, or change what I suggest for half elves?

As for your critique of my orcs, my goal is to make them into something I would want to play. Other than this half-elf, all the other races have perks that I think makes them worth my attention, and the half-elf wasn’t far off. I want to give orcs keen senses in exchange for darkvision. Due to my general dislike of double weapons, I prefer something like what I suggested in my other thread. My main question regards the balance of these changes. I’ll listen to comments about the flavor, but I don’t think I altered the flavor enough to merit asking for a critique in that area.

As for what you suggest with druids, I’m not even going to consider that. By taking away or nerfing some of their bonuses, I’ve introduced a few dead levels. My druids get light armor, more skills, a familiar, and some cool extra nature bonuses. My clerics get medium armor, undead turning, domains, and limited spontaneous casting. The two are different enough by rules and by flavor that I think they should stay separate base classes.

[edit]Vael posted while I was typing this, so...

I had forgotten that Druids had scimitars. I think I will take that out, now that you mention it. I don't want to take light armor from them, because one of the main perks of divine over arcane is ignoring ASF.

Something I just thought about. What about giving humans an extra class skill (with the exception of Use Magic Device) of thier choice? Said class skill would never be cross class, even if they multi-classed.

AmberVael
2006-12-25, 09:36 PM
Something I just thought about. What about giving humans an extra class skill (with the exception of Use Magic Device) of thier choice? Said class skill would never be cross class, even if they multi-classed.

Sounds cool. Are you thinking of this?

Adaptive Learning (Ex) At 1st level, a human paragon can designate any one of his human paragon class skills as an adaptive skill. This skill is treated as a class skill in all respects for all classes that character has levels in, both current and future. For example, if a human paragon chooses Spot as an adaptive skill, he treats Spot as a class skill for all future class levels he gains, even if it is not normally a class skill for the class in question.
I think that would be a good addition for a racial ability.

Proven_Paradox
2006-12-25, 09:49 PM
Yeah, except I was thinking it would be a class skill for any class they choose. So if a human fighter/barbarian choose... say... sleight of hand, for example, it would still be a class skill for them even though it would be cross class for both of those.

Paragon... I know this class only from Guild Wars. What book is that found in?

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-08, 06:47 AM
All right, I've got a few more things I want to add here. Mostly a few goodies for melee classes.

Fighter gains the following--

Lesser Fighting Stances (Ex):
At 5th level, a fighter has learned how to change their focus in battle, shifting between defensive, offensive, and strategic fighting stances. During combat, the fighter my choose to use one of the following fighting stances:

Lesser Fighting stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit|Penalty
Defensive |+1 AC, +1 to damage rolls|-1 to attack rolls
Offensive |+1 to damage rolls, +1 to attack rolls|-1 AC
Strategic |+1 AC, +1 to attack rolls|-1 to damage rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat.

Greater Fighting Stances (Ex):
At 13th level, a fighter has reached a new level of combat prowess, and may choose from any of the following fighting stances.

Greater Fighting Stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit|Penalty
Balanced |+1 AC, +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls|None
Greater Defensive |+2 AC, +2 to damage rolls|-1 to attack rolls
Greater Offensive |+2 to damage rolls, +2 to attack rolls|-1 AC
Greater Strategic |+2 AC, +2 to attack rolls|-1 to damage rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat. Greater fighting stances supercede and replace lesser fighting stances.

Superior Fighting Stances (Ex):

At 20th level, the fighter has become a master of armed combat of all kinds, and knows how to adapt to different circumstances on the battlefield in ways that can astound lesser combatants.

Superior Fighting Stances
{table=head]Name|Benifit
Superior Balanced |+2 AC, +2 to damage rolls, +2 to attack rolls
Superior Defensive |+3 AC, +3 to damage rolls
Superior Offensive |+3 to damage rolls, +3 to attack rolls
Superior Strategic |+3 AC, +3 to attack rolls[/table]

These stances last until they are changed. The fighter may change their fighting style as a free action during their turn. S/he may also choose to use no fighting style as a free action during their turn. A fighter may not maintain these stances outside of combat. Superior fighting stances supercedes and replaces greater fighting stances.

**The fighter bonuses I've listed here are modified from Roderick's Combat Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30456) feat tree.

Barbarians will gain the following--

Heedless rage (Ex):
At 9th level, a barbarian becomes so focused while raging that their bodies simply fail to notice damage. While raging, the barbarian gains an additional 3/- DR which stacks with the damage reduction they normally have. This improves to 4/- DR at 13th level and to 5/- DR at 18th level.

Monks will gain the following--

Ki Charges (Su):
A monk gains a number of Ki charges equal to half of his/her monk level multiplied by his/her wisdom mod (minimum 1/two levels, round UP instead of down). If s/he runs out of ki charges, s/he loses his/her wisdom bonus to AC. Ki charges recharge after a full night's sleep (or in the case of characters who do not need to sleep, at least six hours of rest).

Ki Reach (Su):
A monk can use ki charges to make his/her unarmed strikes ranged. When a monk attacks, s/he may use ki charges to increase his/her reach. Each charge used increases his/her reach by 10 feet. This improves to 30 ft/charge at level 9th level. These ranged attacks may be full-attacks, but cannot benefit from flurry of blows. Skills such as stunning fist and quivering palm may be delivered with ki reach.

Ki Step (Su):
At 12th level, a monk may use two ki charges to use dimension door as the spell. This ability replaces Abundant Step.

Ki Form (Su):
At 19th level, a monk may use three ki charges to assume an ethereal state, as though using the spell etherealness. Each round spent in this state costs the monk one ki charge, and if s/he runs out of charges this ability immediately ends.

Rangers get--

Animal Companion (Ex):
Rangers may have an animal companion at first level, and ranger animal companions improve to be the same level as that of a druid of the same level. Ranger and druid levels stack for determining the level of a character's animal companion.

Combat Style Supremacy (Ex):
At 19th level, Rangers have attained a mastery of their combat style that borders on perfection.

If they choose the archery combat style at second level, they gain the following benefits. The ranger may now use rapid-shot with no penalty. S/he may also use two many-shots in one round as a full-action, shooting no more than three on each shot (though applying the cumulative penalty separately to each shot). Both shots need-not have the same target.

If they choose the two-weapon fighting combat style at second level, they instead gain the following benefits. The ranger no longer applies any penalty for using two weapons to his primary weapon. If his/her off-hand weapon is light, it also receives no penalty. If his/her off-hand weapon is one-handed, his/her penalty is reduced to -2.

Rogues receive--

Poison Use:
At 12th level, the rogue gains poison use, which functions as the assassin feature of the same name.

Hide in Plain Sight:
At 14th level, the rogue gains hide in plain sight, as the Shadowdancer feature of the same name.

I'm not done with rogue quite yet... They need a capstone really badly.

Paladin, I will probably replace with one of the variants that comes out of the "Paladin Capstone" thread, though I can't be sure until I see all of the results of those great minds' work.


So, yeah. What do you guys think of these changes?

Peregrine
2007-01-08, 01:57 PM
It all looks very interesting. I like the ideas for clerics and fighters, at the very least... but I fear judging the overall balance isn't my speciality.

What is more my speciality is proofreading, and at a glance, you have "Greater Strategic: +2 AC, +2 to attack rolls, -1 to attack rolls". I expect that penalty should be to damage rolls? (And you repeatedly spell 'supersede' as 'supercede'... which my dictionary is now telling me is a variant, but not one I've ever encountered or would consider standard. :smallsmile:)

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-08, 02:01 PM
I've always spelled it "supercede," MS Word says it's okay, so I'm not going to worry about that. Thanks for pointing out the error in Greater Strategic, though; I've corrected that.

magic8BALL
2007-01-09, 02:21 AM
seems I was wrong about a clerics saves, eh? ...perhaps I will play a cleric in the next campaign... full caster, two good saves, heavy armour all win! PLUS undead turning that I can use to chanell all sorts of goodness (or evilness... etc.) with Divine Feats...so why the revamp?

The 1/2 elves have bonuses to skills, which a Human can use his feat to get, then the 1/2 elf still has more bonuses... I dont get what's wrong with the 1/2 as presented in the PHB.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-09, 06:14 AM
I like a lot of these changes. I'll review them in details later.
I particularly like the Battle Stance for Fighters... :smallwink: A lot better than my version. (curious note: I wanted to use the word Stance, but couldn't remember it...) :smallsigh:

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-09, 06:57 AM
Glad to see you like my adaptation to your feats. I've cited you now, thanks for not being mad at me for using that without crediting you before.

Eight Ball - Elves basically do everything half-elves do, but better. Outside of roleplaying, why would you want to be a half-elf over an elf? My changes give you a reason.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-09, 10:21 AM
Naw, it's okay. I really like your changes. Here's my analysis:

Cleric: Not that many changes. Looks alright. Keep good Fort saves
Druid: Hmm... dunno about that one
The skill penalties for the half-orc looks a bit like the charisma penalty. No need to change that.
The extra skills for half-elves would even them a bit, yup.
The free class skill for humans would fit well too.

Allowing all classes to use scrolls without use of Use Magic Device would empower them too much.
You could allow some low level scrolls, like on AD&D

Barbarian and Ranger: The changes looks good.
Monk: Not sure about it too.
Rogue: You are giving him exclusive features of prestige classes. You are elemininating the purpose to use them. Not a good idea.

jlousivy
2007-01-09, 11:44 AM
I disagree with the removal of UMD. This is one of the things that makes rogues/bards useful. Also it doesn't make sense that a fighter who hasn't cast a single spell in his life to be able to use a scroll of Meteor Swarm, Timestop, Power Word Kill, etc. With UMD it's POSSIBLE for a rogue or bard to do it, just.... if they don't... the DM gets to have a little fun :-)

Wands only have a DC of 20, so it wouldn't be all too hard to get.

The Druid doesn't need to have the proficiencys removed, plain caster form hasn't been the problem. It's been Wild Shape. By removing the stat bonuses, it kinda removes it's usefulness save manuverability/stealth.
I'd just suggest a reduction on times/day or duration.

As for the Cleric, I completely agree.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-09, 01:49 PM
Roderick-


The skill penalties for the half-orc looks a bit like the charisma penalty. No need to change that.Do you mean "keep the charisma penalty?" Because a charisma penalty barrs orcs/half-orcs from sorcerer, favored soul, warlock, paladin, and bard (though God forbid I ever have to deal with a half-orc bard), and with the exception of the last two those are classes that fit well with my vision of an orc spellcaster. Spontaneous, requiring little study, and natural. There will be half-orc sorcerers and favored souls in my games that play the roles of shamen in orc society, because the well-studied cleric doesn't fit my vision of the "shaman" roll.


Rogue: You are giving him exclusive features of prestige classes. You are elemininating the purpose to use them. Not a good idea.Assassins get death attack, some cool spells, and a bonus to saves against poison in addition to poison use and hide in plain sight. Shadowdancers get a shadow minion and shadow jumping (though I've been tossing around a house-rule for slower sneak attack progression to add to that) in addition to hide in plain sight. Sure, the abilities I've given rogues are nice features to rogue PrCs, but they are far from the "purpose to use them."


jlousivy-


[UMD] is one of the things that makes rogues/bards useful.Aside from a rogue's sneak attack, skill points, disable device, open lock, evasion, special abilities, and the stuff I've given him, and the bard's song, bardic knowledge, limited casting, and high skill points?

...Okay, actually, I may look into doing something for bards. But rogue still looks pretty good to me.

As for wild shape, the whole point was so that they were put back in thier palce in the party: a primary spellcaster. Even with reduced uses/day and durations, a druid shifting into bear form would be able to go toe to toe with a fighter, and I don't like to see them in melee unless they've buffed themselves to hell first (buffs that should be used on the fighter, anyway).

Matthew
2007-01-10, 01:46 PM
I don't get the nerfing of the Cleric. Most of his unbalanced powers reside in his Spells, rather than his other Class Features.