[PF] Help my soreceress get more skill points.

[Frosty]

Okay, so I think I'm gonna build a human sorceress for Rise of the Runelords AP. She's going to take the Fey [Sylvan] bloodline for the delicious tasty Animal Companion, and also mess around with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for a Familiar and more importantly, so she can abuse Paragon Surge and be able to spontaneous know any sorc/wizard spell with the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat (I plan on taking Spell Perfection and Quicken Spell so I can do it as a swift action and then cast the spell I need). I also plan on having her take the Seeker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/seeker) archetype if nothing else then for the terrific +4 to Concentration and +4 Spell pen bonuses.

So, the problem is, I'm spread too thin on skills. As my party is without a rogue, and Seeker gives me Disable Device as a class skill (and a bonus to DD and Perception), I figure I'd be the party's trap finder. Since I have an animal companion, I need Handle Animal to train and use the companion in combat. If I plan on abusing Paragon Surge to get any wiz/sorc spell I want, I better be able to back up the spell knowledge in-character, so that's maxing Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft (which I need for Spell Perfection anyways).

That's Perception + Disable Device + Handle Animal + Knowledge (arcana) + Spellcraft for 5 skills. And I probably want Bluff too in order to make use of my likely sky-high charisma. 6 skills, on a sorceress's paltry 2 + Int. Sure I'm human so that's 3 + Int. If I reeeeally dump Str, I can probably get Int up to 14, but that's still only 5 skills/level. The human sorcerer favored class bonus is just too good to give up for skill points. So, where else can I scrape up another one point/level?

[avr]

From levels 1-3 you might be able to do without the human favoured class bonus. If you can get a headband of vast intelligence (with some knowledge skill) and you get the appropriate spells & feats, the Loremaster PrC would be open to you from 8th level - this has 4+Int skills base.

Edit - forget the 2nd idea if you're going with Sylvan for the animal companion, obviously you don't want to lose advancement in the AC. Didn't think of that first off.

[Crake]

if you're keen to go good, and your DM is ok with importing 3.5 stuff, nymphs kiss could fit your character with fey heritage? It gives +1 skillpoint per level after it's taken (although with pathfinder you could probably argue that it's benefits should be retroactive like normal skillpoints). Two things though: You need to be in an intimate relationship with a fey, and you need to be exalted. If you think you can manage those two things, then that should make up the extra skillpoint per level you wanted.

Note that nymphs kiss actually fits really nicely with the pathfinder skill system, because in 3.5 it didnt give 4x at level 1, so you were typically left 3 skillpoints down on a skill, but in pathfinder that wont be the case.

[Frosty]

I think my DM doesn't want 3.5 stuff. I mean, I'll ask, but I'd like to stick with PF material first and foremost. Also, my character, while Good, isn't exalted. She has lockpicks for a *reason* :smallcool:

[rollforeigninit]

If third party stuff is on the table, look up Open Minded from Dreamscarred Press. They make PF psionics and do it well. Open minded just grants more skill points straight up. There are probably some spells you can learn that will improve your skill checks without actual skill points being spent on them.

[Crake]

I think my DM doesn't want 3.5 stuff. I mean, I'll ask, but I'd like to stick with PF material first and foremost. Also, my character, while Good, isn't exalted. She has lockpicks for a *reason* :smallcool:

Note that you can be a rogueish character but still be exalted. You need to be good not lawful


If third party stuff is on the table, look up Open Minded from Dreamscarred Press. They make PF psionics and do it well. Open minded just grants more skill points straight up. There are probably some spells you can learn that will improve your skill checks without actual skill points being spent on them.

Open minded is an official feat from complete adventurer? herp derp, forgetting pathfinder and stuff

[avr]

Open minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded) did get translated to PF. 3rd party though, in Dreamscarred Press's psionic stuff.

Ninja'd.

[Frosty]

Open minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded) did get translated to PF. 3rd party though, in Dreamscarred Press's psionic stuff.
1) I remember Open Minded as being the suck back in 3.5
2) You have been Shen'ed I mean ninja'ed.
3) This is exactly that feat I'm looking for, and I think there is a decent chance that my DM will allow it. DSP is as close to official source as a 3rd party can get.

[Feralventas]

If you're allowed to also take the Dual Blooded archetype, and are willing to cut down a little bit on your spells known, I believe there's a bloodline or two that allows you to key your spellcasting off of Int instead of Cha, which would allow you to redistribute focusing on Intelligence while having enough skillpoints to still do well with your cha-skills.

[grarrrg]

There are no full casting PrC's that have better than 2 Skills/level that you could qualify for, that wouldn't require a larger investment in skill ranks than you would get in return (i.e. Loremaster is bad idea).

You could always dip a non-casting class (Rogue/Ninja) for a quicky boost, but that isn't the best option.


If you're allowed to also take the Dual Blooded archetype, and are willing to cut down a little bit on your spells known, I believe there's a bloodline or two that allows you to key your spellcasting off of Int instead of Cha, which would allow you to redistribute focusing on Intelligence while having enough skillpoints to still do well with your cha-skills.

This wouldn't work, as the only bloodline that does this is Arcane(Sage), and Frosty already wants to Eldritch Heritage for Arcane.



Also, for giggles:
Stay Frosty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StayFrosty)

[Frosty]

If you're allowed to also take the Dual Blooded archetype, and are willing to cut down a little bit on your spells known, I believe there's a bloodline or two that allows you to key your spellcasting off of Int instead of Cha, which would allow you to redistribute focusing on Intelligence while having enough skillpoints to still do well with your cha-skills.
What grarrrg said. Also, for RP reasons, I want a CHA-focused character.

[Baroncognito]

If you've got an Intelligence of 13, you can grab Fast Learner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/fast-learner-human) and get a spell and a skill point as a favoured class bonus every level.

Edit: Fast Learner would also allow you to pick up Improvisation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/improvisation-human) and Improved Improvisation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/improved-improvisation-human) which won't add to your skill points, but could still be interesting to have.

[Waker]

There are no full casting PrC's that have better than 2 Skills/level that you could qualify for, that wouldn't require a larger investment in skill ranks than you would get in return (i.e. Loremaster is bad idea).
I dunno, I think Cyphermage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/cyphermage) is a decent class, even if it isn't as great for Sorcerers.

[Andvare]

I dunno, I think Cyphermage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/cyphermage) is a decent class, even if it isn't as great for Sorcerers.

But as the man said, it requires a hefty investment of skill ranks, ten of which is wasted on two skills the build doesn't need, so only after 5 levels would it be a net gain.

Edit: And it requires an Int of 15

[Waker]

But as the man said, it requires a hefty investment of skill ranks, ten of which is wasted on two skills the build doesn't need, so only after 5 levels would it be a net gain.

Edit: And it requires an Int of 15

The intelligence requirement for Cypher Magic is a bit of a bother, but I don't think that the skill points in Knowledge (History) are wasted. Always useful to have someone in the party with some Knowledge skills. Linguistics is somewhat less useful if the party has access to Comprehend/Share Language, but it isn't without merit. Don't forget that Linguistics includes Decipher Script too, so you can use that to understand some clues the DM may give the party.

[Andvare]

The intelligence requirement for Cypher Magic is a bit of a bother, but I don't think that the skill points in Knowledge (History) are wasted. Always useful to have someone in the party with some Knowledge skills. Linguistics is somewhat less useful if the party has access to Comprehend/Share Language, but it isn't without merit. Don't forget that Linguistics includes Decipher Script too, so you can use that to understand some clues the DM may give the party.

Absolutely, but since Frosty stated that his* character has six skills he needs. and needs help with getting skill points to cover those six, two extra skills is going in the opposite direction :smallwink:

On a related note on Handle Animal. Frosty, you don't actually need all that much here. With a Cha of 18, and some masterwork tools, you have all that is needed for any trick training (max DC 20, skill mod of 4(cha) +1(rank) +4(druid companion) +2(tools) and taking 10 makes 21). And if you pick a companion with an int of two, you can increase it to three at level four, thus enabling it to understand you, freeing you from using handle animal in combat. This, coupled with the dubious value of the human favoured class bonus at level one and two, ensures you "only" need five skills. Plus you then even have one(!!!1!) skill point left.


*assuming male, because there just are a higher probability of it. If it is not correct, I apologize.

[Frosty]

What about handling the animal in combat? I want to make sure my AC will listen to me I guess...

[Andvare]

What about handling the animal in combat? I want to make sure my AC will listen to me I guess...

Well, to handle an animal in combat is only a DC 10, if it knows the trick. So if you have a Cha of 18, you automatically succeed at level 1.
And at level four, with it being able to understand common, you shouldn't have to make a skill check at all, though you might want to confer with your GM about that.

Edit: Know that an animal companion with an int of 2, can learn up till seven tricks at level 1.

Edit2: Handle animal. DC 10 to handle it. Skill mod of 1 (ranks) + 4(cha) +3(class skill) +4(druid animal companion). Minimum roll of 12+1. Even if it is wouded, the DC is max 12.

[The Random NPC]

Okay, so I think I'm gonna build a human sorceress for Rise of the Runelords AP. She's going to take the Fey [Sylvan] bloodline for the delicious tasty Animal Companion, and also mess around with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for a Familiar and more importantly, so she can abuse Paragon Surge and be able to spontaneous know any sorc/wizard spell with the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat (I plan on taking Spell Perfection and Quicken Spell so I can do it as a swift action and then cast the spell I need). I also plan on having her take the Seeker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/seeker) archetype if nothing else then for the terrific +4 to Concentration and +4 Spell pen bonuses.

So, the problem is, I'm spread too thin on skills. As my party is without a rogue, and Seeker gives me Disable Device as a class skill (and a bonus to DD and Perception), I figure I'd be the party's trap finder. Since I have an animal companion, I need Handle Animal to train and use the companion in combat. If I plan on abusing Paragon Surge to get any wiz/sorc spell I want, I better be able to back up the spell knowledge in-character, so that's maxing Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft (which I need for Spell Perfection anyways).

That's Perception + Disable Device + Handle Animal + Knowledge (arcana) + Spellcraft for 5 skills. And I probably want Bluff too in order to make use of my likely sky-high charisma. 6 skills, on a sorceress's paltry 2 + Int. Sure I'm human so that's 3 + Int. If I reeeeally dump Str, I can probably get Int up to 14, but that's still only 5 skills/level. The human sorcerer favored class bonus is just too good to give up for skill points. So, where else can I scrape up another one point/level?

Wait, why do you need to use Improved Eldridge Heritage? Can't you just use Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) directly?


If you've got an Intelligence of 13, you can grab Fast Learner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/fast-learner-human) and get a spell and a skill point as a favoured class bonus every level.

I believe you have misread that. You get both a skill point and a hit point when you choose either of those, or you can choose an alternate favored class bonus.

[Hunter Noventa]

Don't forget you get an automatic +4 on Handle Animal checks at level 1 thanks to the link with your animal companion.

Like Andvare said, the DCs you're looking at for Handle Animal are pretty low, so you'll likely not need to invest too many points into it after the first couple of levels.

You're also going to want to pick up the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) feat to buff up your AC, though I saw no mention of that in your posts.

As far as teaching the animal more tricks, see if you can take 10 on the training. You'd only need a total +10 bonus, which would be 2 ranks with an 18 Cha and your Link bonus. if your Cha isn't quite that high, see if your DM will let you purchase a master tool for the job, which gives another +2 bonus.

[Andvare]

Don't forget you get an automatic +4 on Handle Animal checks at level 1 thanks to the link with your animal companion.

Like Andvare said, the DCs you're looking at for Handle Animal are pretty low, so you'll likely not need to invest too many points into it after the first couple of levels.

You're also going to want to pick up the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) feat to buff up your AC, though I saw no mention of that in your posts.

As far as teaching the animal more tricks, see if you can take 10 on the training. You'd only need a total +10 bonus, which would be 2 ranks with an 18 Cha and your Link bonus. if your Cha isn't quite that high, see if your DM will let you purchase a master tool for the job, which gives another +2 bonus.

It can actually be done with one rank and a cha of 14. He just have to take one of these traits (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dVQA-uI740Hh8vq-zsnbHV6UwJg-4QKlpmkxBEmCdhA/edit#bookmark=id.xxfzdye45i9w). Animal Friend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/animal-friend-gnome), in particular, is crazy good for someone with an animal besides him at all times. He'll just have to accept to have been adopted by Gnomes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted).

[Hunter Noventa]

It can actually be done with one rank and a cha of 14. He just have to take one of these traits (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dVQA-uI740Hh8vq-zsnbHV6UwJg-4QKlpmkxBEmCdhA/edit#bookmark=id.xxfzdye45i9w). Animal Friend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/animal-friend-gnome), in particular, is crazy good for someone with an animal besides him at all times. He'll just have to accept to have been adopted by Gnomes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted).

Assuming traits are allowed, since no mention of them was made I assumed not, since they aren't a standard feature. But yeah, that works too.

[Frosty]

Handle Animal is not a Class Skill for sorcs, even for one with a Sylvan Bloodline for some reason, but the +4 should help from the AC link.

Animal Friend can help with that of course.

Traits are allowed. In fact, I'm getting 3 of them, and Animal Friend is gonna be one of them. Another will be Ascendant Recollection. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/ascendant-recollection) This means at level 1, start of game, I'll have a rank 2 Animal Companion (one of them medium sized pouncing dinos) and it has 3 HD and 2 BAB and 2 feats.

Boon Companion will be taken at level 1 to get this to happen of course.

[Andvare]

Assuming traits are allowed, since no mention of them was made I assumed not, since they aren't a standard feature. But yeah, that works too.

I forget there are people not using traits.

[Frosty]

I *can* use Expanded Arcana, but the Eldritch thing works better story wise, and getting a familiar is powerful anyways. +4 Init ftw.

[Andvare]

Handle Animal is not a Class Skill for sorcs, even for one with a Sylvan Bloodline for some reason, but the +4 should help from the AC link.

Animal Friend can help with that of course.

Traits are allowed. In fact, I'm getting 3 of them, and Animal Friend is gonna be one of them. Another will be Ascendant Recollection. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/ascendant-recollection) This means at level 1, start of game, I'll have a rank 2 Animal Companion (one of them medium sized pouncing dinos) and it has 3 HD and 2 BAB and 2 feats.

Boon Companion will be taken at level 1 to get this to happen of course.

So either Allosaurus or Deinonychus?
I'd go with the small, but fast, Deinonychus at first, then around level 6, when it grows larger, I'd switch to the Allosaurus.
Of course, my real favourite would be the Ankylosaurus, that stun attack is just too good to pass up.

[Spuddles]

The finding haldeen trait gets you 1 hp & 1 skill pt per level of favored class on top of your favored class bonuses. I think it may be renamed in the PFSRD for proprietary reasons.

[monkey3]

Okay, so I think I'm gonna build a human sorceress ... she can abuse Paragon Surge and be able to spontaneous know any sorc/wizard spell with the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat ...

My post has little to offer on the skill point question. But I have a question of my own.

How are you using Paragon Surge? I thought it was Halfelve only.
How is Improved Eldritch Heritage significant? I don't see how it helps you use Paragon Surge.

[Andvare]

My post has little to offer on the skill point question. But I have a question of my own.

How are you using Paragon Surge? I thought it was Halfelve only.
How is Improved Eldritch Heritage significant? I don't see how it helps you use Paragon Surge.

Racial Heritage. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/racial-heritage)

Edit: And to the second question, Improved Eldricth Heritage (Arcane) gives you access to all sorcerer spells, and at the right level, more than one at a time.

[Frosty]

Andvare: I'll need to go check out the Ankylosaurus.

Spuddles: Spuddles, can you help me find that trait since it has been renamed? :smallbiggrin:

monkey3: My character's ancestors were...kinky, to say the least. My human sorceress was adopted by gnomes after they found her abandoned as a baby. She was sent to a wizard school because she had shown some magical talent but flunked out horribly. It turns out that in her blood there are powers given to her by her heritage, which includes: Human, Elven (from the feat she'll take), Fey (she has a Sylvan sorc bloodline), and possibly Orc (if I take more Eldtrich Heritage feats. I know I'm already taking it for the Destined bloodline. I'm guessing sometime in the past her Elven ancestors had fun with faeries.

In the end, it's all justification for how when she casts Paragon Surge, she channels the powers and knowledge of one of her ancestors (most often the ancestors who were high level wizards), and she can do cool stuff, like spontaneously know any sorc/wizard spell for min/caster level.

At level 15, she can quicken Paragon Surge without spending higher spell slot. So it'll be like, "Hey, we need THIS spell right now to defeat the BBEG." "No problem! Gimme literally 1 second and I'll use the rest of the round to cast said spell."

[Andvare]

Spuddles: Spuddles, can you help me find that trait since it has been renamed? :smallbiggrin:

Finding Haleen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) is a Campaign trait from Legacy Of Fire, which is why I didn't suggest it, because it involves you having to find Haleen, a NPC in Legacy of Fire.

The Ankylosaurus. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Ankylosaurus)

[Frosty]

I can't choose campaign-specific traits that are not related to RoTRL or at least the Sandpoint region.

Andvare, the Ankylosaurus stun is nice, but
1) The stun DC is str-based, and it starts at 10 str eww (for rp reasons I don't want to switch companions if possible. I'd like to stick with one the entire campaign) so not only can't it hit anything, but the stun DC will start off at...10. Is it worth it compared to Pounce of the other dinos?

Also, starting Con = 9, which is kinda squishy, but at least it's got huge armor.

[Andvare]

I can't choose campaign-specific traits that are not related to RoTRL or at least the Sandpoint region.

Andvare, the Ankylosaurus stun is nice, but
1) The stun DC is str-based, and it starts at 10 str eww (for rp reasons I don't want to switch companions if possible. I'd like to stick with one the entire campaign) so not only can't it hit anything, but the stun DC will start off at...10. Is it worth it compared to Pounce of the other dinos?

Also, starting Con = 9, which is kinda squishy, but at least it's got huge armor.

It doesn't even have the stun attack until level 7. Until that level, it is just a tank, because it wont hit much, and certainly not damage any. It is really subpar until level 7 (level 6 in your case I suppose), but by then, yum-yum.
Of course, none of the animal companions get pounce until level 7 either, but the Deinonychus is still rather effective at low levels, with its small size and extreme speed.

[Frosty]

How do you get the Ankylosaurus to hit anything? Do you take Weapon Focus (tail) with it?

[Baroncognito]

I believe you have misread that. You get both a skill point and a hit point when you choose either of those, or you can choose an alternate favored class bonus.

So I am. I kept mentally inserting a period before instead.

That is kind of a poorly written sentence.

[Andvare]

How do you get the Ankylosaurus to hit anything? Do you take Weapon Focus (tail) with it?

That is certainly an option, but it'll have a strength of at least 18 at level 7 (more than the Deinonychus will), and probably more. So it'll hit pretty well by then.

[Andvare]

BTW, you can get your animal companion the Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) feat.
After it gets an int of three, it takes the Additional Trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits), gets the Magical Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-talent), and select any arcane cantrip, like Root (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips#TOC-Root).
Now it can take Arcane Strike, albeit only at caster level 1.
Silly and cheesy, and perhaps not that useful if you have access to Greater Magic Fang. But AFAIK perfectly within RAW.

[Frosty]

I think Eldrtich Claws (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/eldritch-claws) are better, especially since my Ankylosaurus would get it for free thanks to being a Totem Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/totem-guide-companion-archetype). If I'm going Ankylosaurus, I have no need for multi-attack, and being a sorceress, I'd certainly appreciate being able to spontaneously cast detect animals or plants (1st), augury (2nd), helping hand (3rd), divination (4th), commune with nature (5th), and find the path (6th). Most of these are druid spells.

[Dr. Yes]

I think Eldrtich Claws (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/eldritch-claws) are better, especially since my Ankylosaurus would get it for free thanks to being a Totem Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/totem-guide-companion-archetype). If I'm going Ankylosaurus, I have no need for multi-attack, and being a sorceress, I'd certainly appreciate being able to spontaneously cast detect animals or plants (1st), augury (2nd), helping hand (3rd), divination (4th), commune with nature (5th), and find the path (6th). Most of these are druid spells.

I'd think twice about giving up the standard companion's Multiattack, since it allows your companion to take an iterative if it only has one natural attack. A second chance to hit is a second chance to stun, even if it's at -5.

[Andvare]

Eldritch Claws are definitely better.
But with MultiAttack, it's actually the other way around. The other two Dinos gets nothing from the feat, as they have no secondary natural attacks, but both have three or more attacks. The Ankylosaurus, having only one attack doesn't get the feat, but instead gets a second attack, though at -5 to hit.
Though I can understand why you want a Totem Guide.

[Frosty]

Hmm...you DO make a good point. I'll have to re-think that.

[Frosty]

Eldritch Claws are definitely better.
But with MultiAttack, it's actually the other way around. The other two Dinos gets nothing from the feat, as they have no secondary natural attacks, but both have three or more attacks. The Ankylosaurus, having only one attack doesn't get the feat, but instead gets a second attack, though at -5 to hit.
Though I can understand why you want a Totem Guide.

Actually no. The Allosaurus for example has 2 1d4 claw attacks that are Secondary attacks, so Multi-attack would reduce the penalty from -5 to -2.

[Andvare]

Actually no. The Allosaurus for example has 2 1d4 claw attacks that are Secondary attacks, so Multi-attack would reduce the penalty from -5 to -2.

It is odd, as in my PDF, there is no mentioning of any of the Allosaurus' attacks being secondary, and claws aren't secondary attacks.
Besides, according to d20pfsrd, at the level where you get the Multiattack feat, the Allosaurus claw attacks aren't secondary.

[grarrrg]

I *can* use Expanded Arcana, but the Eldritch thing works better story wise, and getting a familiar is powerful anyways. +4 Init ftw.

Surge > Expanded works slightly better before level 15.
Surge > Heritage works slightly better at/after level 15.
(reminder: Eldritch Heritage has a -2 effective level penalty)

Expanded Arcana gets you EITHER 1 spell of highest level, OR 2 spells of both lower levels.
Imp. Eldritch gets you 1 ANY spell at level 11. 2 ANY spells at level 15, and 3 ANY spells at level 19.

So in the long run, Heritage is better.
Although until then, Expanded Arcanna works just as well.


Actually no. The Allosaurus for example has 2 1d4 claw attacks that are Secondary attacks, so Multi-attack would reduce the penalty from -5 to -2.

Claw attacks are generally Primary attacks, and critter are allowed as many Primaries as they can carry.
In other words: Mutliattack is like Goggles.
THEY DO NOTHING!

[IronFist]

*assuming male, because there just are a higher probability of it. If it is not correct, I apologize.

A male Sorceress, uh... :smallamused:

[Andvare]

A male Sorceress, uh... :smallamused:

I was talking about Frosty, not the character.

[Rubik]

I think your soreceress needs Remove Disease more than extra skill points.

[IronFist]

I was talking about Frosty, not the character.

Don't spoil the joke!


I think your soreceress needs Remove Disease more than extra skill points.
http://f9.img.v4.skyrock.net/1673/64071673/pics/2575920731_2.jpg
Well played.

[Spuddles]

best animal companion, imo, is the spinosaurus

[Frosty]

What's so good about it?

[Andvare]

What's so good about it?

Awesome stats.
At level 7 it has a base strength of 26 and con of 19.

Edit: So in game, it would have, at level 7, an attack bonus of 12 (+4BAB; +9strength; -1size), around 57 HP, and an AC in the neighbourhood of 20, unbuffed.
With 3 attacks, one doing 1D8+9 and two doing 1D6+9, though no pounce nor any other specials.

[Frosty]

Better than the Stun from the Ankylosaurus? My party already has a Druid (who also uses dino companion as well heh) and we also have a barbarian so we have melee damage covered.

[Andvare]

IMO definitely not.
The only other companion that comes close to the Ankylosaurus, is the Allosaurus (and the big cat, which is close to the same stats as the Allosaurus).
The Spinosaurus has one thing going for it, high strength.
But lacking pounce, it wont be delivering as many attacks as the Allosaurus, so some of that strength value is gone. Th Allosaurus also has grab, which is quite good paired with pounce, as you can get it to pounce-grab a spellcaster in the first round of combat, effectively taking the caster out.

But the Ankylosaurus has that magnificent stun attack. When it gets it at level 7, it is a fort 18 DC, which at that level is about a 50% chance of success against most level appropriate monsters. The DC scales, and can easily be boosted with strength enhancing buffs and feats, so you can expect to keep that success rate all through your career.

[Frosty]

Assuming that I'm going to go with the Anky from level 1 and not switch him out, how should I best use the 10 str, 0 BAB companion?

[Andvare]

Assuming that I'm going to go with the Anky from level 1 and not switch him out, how should I best use the 10 str, 0 BAB companion?

It isn't a 0 BAB companion, all animal companions have the same BAB progression.

Until it becomes large, it is just a medium sized meat shield. It can be used as a flank buddy for that barbarian, or something to put between you and whatever is targeting you. It does have a high AC (AC 21 at level 1 is quite decent, and it can get higher with barding), so it probably will survive most things.
Due to its high AC, you can also use it to trigger AoOs, for example if you know that your barbarian friend will trigger one next turn, you could use the dino to trigger it instead, thus making the enemy target your high AC, and low threat, dino instead of the barbarian.
You can also teach it the Aid trick, enabling it to aid your barbarian friend in combat. Together with the flank bonus, that is a +4 to hit.
It also have scent, as most companions have, so it could be used as a bloodhound. There's just something rather silly about using an Ankylosaurus as a bloodhound.

[Frosty]

Does it need Survival or Perception to help track people then? I'm thinking of giving it possibly Light armor prof at first level or Skill Focus (Perception/Survival).

[Andvare]

Does it need Survival or Perception to help track people then? I'm thinking of giving it possibly Light armor prof at first level or Skill Focus (Perception/Survival).

A scent track that is less than an hour old, is just a Survival DC 10, so pretty much any creature with the scent ability can track those. Most animal companions have a wisdom of 12, and the Ankylosaurus is no exception, so by taking 10 it finds these automatically.
However, for every hour that has passed, the DC goes up by 2, and very strong odours ramps up the base DC to 20. So if it is supposed to be a professional bloodhound, you'd have to spend most, if not all, of its skill points on survival (which for some odd reason isn't a class skill for companions).

Perception, while not useful when tracking by scent, is always very useful, and is a class skill for companions. Stealth is as well. And with a dex of 14, the Ankylosaurus has a surprisingly decent stealth...

Personally, I'd go with Perception as the main skill, but I would try to place at least one rank in most of the companions class skills. I think I would forego survival, it isn't a class skill, and to use it to track with, requires a big investment of the very few skill ranks the companion gets.

[Frosty]

ACs only get 1 skill a level, which makes my Ankylosaurus a sad (reptilian) puppy. So, what skills would you recommend? If it gets 1 in everything it's gonna suck at everything :smalltongue:

[Andvare]

Depends a bit on the campaign TBH, I'd take one rank in Acrobatics and Stealth (and later enchant the companions barding to enhance its stealth), and probably put the rest into perception. But if it was a campaign with a lot of water, swim is a given choice.
I wouldn't take climb, not because it isn't useful, but because I just can't get my head around a large, stumpy legged, reptile climbing a tree.

[Frosty]

I'm playing Rise of the Runelords (btw is Bluff useful in that campaign?). I might start a new thread to ask about how would one get the AC up a cliff or over large pits. PCs just climb/jump, but ACs might be too dumb or scared to.

[Spuddles]

The balance point of PF animal companions is pretty reasonable- the physical stats tend to be balanced with special abilities and number of natural attacks. The DC of the ankle-dinosaur's daze, for instance, is abysmal, especially considering that it will likely be targeting frontline targets (ie, high fort save) for a decent part of the game. It also has very low con for a melee'r, which means it's frightfully squishy.

The pounce on cats and dinos is nice, but the attack routines are underwhelming, and their physical ability scores are lackluster.

Pet CMB is generally fairly poor, as they have 4/5 HD relative to you and 3/4 BAB, and size doesn't matter as much in PF for grapples. So the grab ability of an allosaur wont work very often, and when it does, it will tend to be on relatively inconsequential opponents. Having grab or something also means 2 to 4 less base strength, as well, which hurts.

In general, if you have an AC and you're a full caster, you want your pet to be able to tank and do damage, and the spinosaur flat out has the best stats for that. The other animal companions trade too much for their special abilities, IMO. Note that the spinosaur has no secondary attacks- every attack it makes, it makes without penalty. That's immensely helpful in the early game, and saves you feats in the later game. Power attack & furious focus, for instance, work really well on a spinosaur, and the damage evens out with a cat who is pouncing.

Also note that as a sorcerer, your limited spells known, and spell selection, will generally not favor putting buffs like greater magic fang or animal growth on your pet.

tl;dr
PF pets are too well balanced to make the special abilities worth the cost in damage, attacks, and ability scores, if you are a full caster. Your save or die is better than your pets; the most efficient use of a pet is damage dealer/damage sponge.

[Frosty]

As a level one sorc, I will be taking Enlarge Person and possibly casting it on my AC during combat :smallamused:

As for the Ankylosaurus, it has a +9 bonus to Nat Armor from the get-go. With 21 AC at Effective-Druid-Level (EDL) 1, it can be pretty tanky against the goblin warrior 1s trying to poke at it with short-spears. But yes, its con is sorely lacking.

Now, the Spinosaurus is REALLY good in terms of stats I agree, but can you help me compare it with the damage potential of a T-rex (who only has one bite attack and takes Imp Nat Attack for it) who takes Vital Strike?

At level 10, we're talking about a total of 26 Str after all the AC bonuses, and becomes 28 after Enlarge Person. On a normal bite, that's 4d6+18 damage. With Vital Strike, that's 8d6+18 damage.

The spinosaurus gets 32 Str after Enlarge Person. If it also has INA (Bite), on a full attack it does...3d6+11 + 1d8+11 + 1d8+11 for 3d6+2d8+33...if it all hits.

It's...about the same in damage I think, but the T-rex has a tad more armor but less HP. However, the T-rex can do this after moving, while the Spinosaurus is limited to full-attacks.

[Spuddles]

I suppose it depends on how mobile the enemy is. Pathfinder nerfed the hell out of mobility, so full attacks aren't as hard to get off now. Also, with a druid, barbarian, and sorc in the party, you guys have a lot of incentive/ability to find ways to make sure you get full attacks.

The enlarge person trick is really neat. I like it.

T-Rex with vital strike is definitely a cool trick, but that comes online at level 10. At low levels, I'd want more attacks, because more attacks is basically more actions.

Low level combat is mostly ability score checks, so when you have a 30% or 40% chance of missing, then have to stand around and let all the opponents attack you, getting to throw 3 dice instead of one is far more valuable. You're getting three actions instead of one. And with most combats ending in 6 turns or less, your typical combat won't see the dice "average out", so to speak. It's hard to hit expected values on a d20 when you only roll it 3 to 6 times.

If your DM will never let you die, then yeah, by all means go for better average damage. But the nature of combat in D&D only approaches averages over multiple combats, but to have multiple combats, you have to get there first.

At least, that's been my experience with getting multiple full strength attacks a round with things like early access to haste or using the whirling frenzy rage variant and facing enemies that can be taken down in 1 hit (like many low level monsters).

Late game vital striking trexwith INA, power attack, and furious focus is awesome at damage, though. I forgot about vital strike and how good it can be on ACs. Unfortunately, it comes online rather late, as the AC has an effective 3/5 BAB (HD less than char level, 3/4 BAB).

Barding is amazing. ACs are a little feat starved, but you could really make that anklysaurus tanky with barded studded leather. Upgrade to chain shirt when affordable. Unfortunately mithril breastplate doesnt work any more if you dont have medium armor prof. Ability Focus on the stunning tail would also be pretty sweet. It's actually a daze effect, which works on some stuff that is normally immune to stun, but most things with stun immunity are immune to things that require fort saves. So the tail wont work on undead, constructs, etc. At first look, I thought dazing tail was a secret weapon vs. those types. Alas, it is not.

[Frosty]

Would Haste really benefit my companion? Since it is not using manufactured weapons and has no iteratives, my Spinosaurus would still only get 1 bite and 2 claws right?

And yeah, Enlarge person is good. So is Animal Growth. And Form of the Dragon 3. And [Tenser's] Transformation. And Contingency (I key my contingency to cast Animal Growth on my companion the moment he receives a Transformation from me. Enjoy a Huge Spinosaurus that has full BAB for its HD and huge bonuses to its stats.

Yes, barding is amazing. I plan on giving my AC armor prof at level 1.

So basically, it's come down to focusing the crap out of the tail slap Daze effect with an Anky, or going with a Spino and casting a metric ton of buffs on it. I can cast ALL sorts of Personal-range spells on it hehe.

EDIT: I just realized...the Anky tail daze effect's save DC is based off of STRENGTH. I can give it LOTS of Str...oh YES...

[Spuddles]

"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon."

Haste got a slight buff in PF, though really, I think 3.5 haste was RAI meant to give everything another attack, despite the rules, considering how many monsters had haste as an SLA.

Str stacking for daze abuse is awesome, if you dont mind building around it. Double points for having a barb and a druid in the party. That could be a really powerful support build. Definitely try to find ways to get that anky multiple tail attacks. The only one I can think of is Haste, though.

[Frosty]

We'll also have an Oracle (Lore) of some sort and possibly an unknown 5th member if he joins the RP group. But yeah, so far I think we've got the melee beatdown covered. Imma try to get that stun DC into the stratosphere.

As for giving the anky another tail attack, when it gains Multiattack due to leveling, it will gain a second tail attack at -5 since it only has 1 weapon. With Haste, that's 3 tail attacks a round!

[Spuddles]

Level 10, large anklysaurus, 18 base str. Animal growth for +8 size bonus, bull str for +enhancement, for 30 total str. 9 HD. Multiattack, Ability Focus. With haste, that's 3 attacks that have a DC of 10 + 4 + 10 +2 = DC 26.

For CR9-12 monsters, bruisers seem to have around +15 on their fort saves, with lows of 14 and highs of 16. Dragons have +12 to +14. Outsiders have around +14 to +16, most seeming to be +12 to +14 with lows of +9.

You find one more source of strength for this pet, and you're looking at 60-90% failure rate on fort saves.

[Baron Malkar]

Regarding OP: The feat Nemesis (story) could let you get an extra skill point per level.

[Frosty]

Baron: Thanks!

Spuddles: Where would I get another source of strength? We probably need to look for an Insight bonus somewhere...

[Spuddles]

I'm not sure. There might be an insight bonus hiding somewhere. A quick look through PFSRD only got me Rage, which is +2 morale.

[Frosty]

Eww, a +1 DC bonus for one of my turns? Not sure if worthwhile...

[Spuddles]

Eww, a +1 DC bonus for one of my turns? Not sure if worthwhile...

Well, at level 10, that could be targeting both animal companions and a summon. Not particularly spectacular, though....

There are a ton of ways to pump str absurdly high in 3.5, but I am not very well read on PF.

[Andvare]

The balance point of PF animal companions is pretty reasonable- the physical stats tend to be balanced with special abilities and number of natural attacks. The DC of the ankle-dinosaur's daze, for instance, is abysmal, especially considering that it will likely be targeting frontline targets (ie, high fort save) for a decent part of the game. It also has very low con for a melee'r, which means it's frightfully squishy.

The pounce on cats and dinos is nice, but the attack routines are underwhelming, and their physical ability scores are lackluster.

Pet CMB is generally fairly poor, as they have 4/5 HD relative to you and 3/4 BAB, and size doesn't matter as much in PF for grapples. So the grab ability of an allosaur wont work very often, and when it does, it will tend to be on relatively inconsequential opponents. Having grab or something also means 2 to 4 less base strength, as well, which hurts.

In general, if you have an AC and you're a full caster, you want your pet to be able to tank and do damage, and the spinosaur flat out has the best stats for that. The other animal companions trade too much for their special abilities, IMO. Note that the spinosaur has no secondary attacks- every attack it makes, it makes without penalty. That's immensely helpful in the early game, and saves you feats in the later game. Power attack & furious focus, for instance, work really well on a spinosaur, and the damage evens out with a cat who is pouncing.

Also note that as a sorcerer, your limited spells known, and spell selection, will generally not favor putting buffs like greater magic fang or animal growth on your pet.

tl;dr
PF pets are too well balanced to make the special abilities worth the cost in damage, attacks, and ability scores, if you are a full caster. Your save or die is better than your pets; the most efficient use of a pet is damage dealer/damage sponge.

The damage difference between an Allosaurus and a Spinosaurus is two. Wow, underwhelming. Yes, the Spinosaurus also get two more on the attack bonus, but then the Allosaurus gets more attacks in, starting with at least two in the first round of combat.
Whether or not the Spinosaurus actually damages more than the pouncers, depends on the type of combat. Large open field combat, with many changes of targets, or combat limited to few rounds, the Spinosaurus comes second, whereas long drawn out battles against few foes, or in tight quarters, it edges ahead.

None of the dinos used here have any secondary attacks, in fact, very few of the companions actually have secondary attacks. The Multiattack feat is more often than not wasted, except in cases where the creature has fewer than three attacks, as is the case with the Ankylosaurus. (the secondary attacks that companions have, is mostly limited to hoofs and tailslaps)

The CMB doesn't scale that well, that is certainly true. The Allosaurus' starts with a CMB (at level 7 when it gets the grab ability) of 12, which is a little less than 50% success rate against most level appropriate monsters, though a bit more against most humanoid opponents. At this level it is okay, considering it will have three attacks of which to trigger it, but it scales awfully, so it ends up being only useful against humanoid opponents, like spellcasters. But grab do continue to be very effective against humanoid spellcasters, as their CMD also scales in a horrendous way, infact worse than the companion, if not actively boosted.
Yeah, it becomes close to useless against most monsters, but against those pesky, and certainly not inconsequential opponents, humanoid spellcasters, it will keep being useful. And grab is very effective against spellcasters.

The Spinosaurus does have a higher con, but then it also got a lower AC.
At level 7, the Spinosaurus has an AC of 21 (con 19), compared to the Allosaurus' AC of 23 (con 14) and the Ankylosaurus' of 27 (con 13). So it has, compared to the Ankylosaurus, 18 more HPs, but 6 less AC.

A potential DC 20 stun at level 7 abysmal? Emm okay, even though it is better than what you get from most spellcasters at the same level...
How is 50% (and up) chance of daze abysmal?

[Andvare]

You can also give your companion magical items. The Ankylosaurus is a saurian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Slots-for-Animals) body type, so it has these slots: Armor, belt (saddle), chest, eyes, headband, neck.
You can also expend the slots with a feat, though that is probably not needed here.

As to the strength stacking, Spuddles has covered it pretty well methinks, except he forgot (I do the same, all the time, stupid multiple source bonuses) that companions get a bonus to their strength and dex (at level 10 it's 3, so the base strength is 21, can be 22 if you use the 9th level attribute increase on strength). So with animal growth and bull's strength, it's a strength of 34. With a magic belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-giant-strength) it can be 36, for a daze DC of 29. Not too shabby.

Edit: If you can get the spell Mighty Strength (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mighty-strength), then it will be an even DC 30. It has to be you that cast it though.

[Frosty]

I will be putting one of the ability increases into Intelligence, so that the AC can learn as many tricks as he wants, take non-animal feats, and generally be smarter in its fighting. But yeah all other increases go to Strength!

I likely won't be giving my AC much gear. Firstly, if I do stuff like cast Form of the Dragon on my AC, all his gear melds anyways. Secondly, I probably need to prioritize dat Headband of Charisma +6 over a belt of giant strength (which would go to the Barbarian first anyways heh).

A potential DC 20 stun at level 7 abysmal? Emm okay, even though it is better than what you get from most spellcasters at the same level...
How is 50% (and up) chance of daze abysmal?And the best part is, it is repeatable, as there is no resource consumed in the attack except an action.