Shadowcasters and Theurgy

[Xuldarinar]

I both wanted to start a discussion and pose a question with this. The question being, what class works best with shadowcasters in terms of theurgy?

Now, within the rules, there aren't many theurgic classes that can legally support shadowcasters. They come down to the following:

Anima Mage* (Treatable as: Mysteries/Binding)
Mystic Theurge (Treatable as: Mysteries/Divine or Mysteries/Arcane)
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane)



*Legal Adaptation. To be a legal adaptation for this purpose, it must be mentioned in the Adaptation section associated with the Prestige Class.

The list of classes that can thus theurge with shadowcaster are:

Any Arcane Spellcasting Class
Any Binding Class
Any Divine Spellcasting Class (Clerics must have, or be devoted to a deity that provides one of the following domains: Darkness, Illusion, Knowledge, or Magic)
Any Invocation-Using Class (Must have levels in an arcane spellcasting class to meet prerequisites, but can be advanced)

[Psyren]

Anima Mage can technically work with the adaptation, but its class abilities don't really function with mysteries as written since they're not spells.

Noctumancer is better than MT simply because it has class features, but you can combine them, so just use both and hit dual 9s.

[Xuldarinar]

Anima Mage can technically work with the adaptation, but its class abilities don't really function with mysteries as written since they're not spells.

Noctumancer is better than MT simply because it has class features, but you can combine them, so just use both and hit dual 9s.

Along with early entry methods being available to arcane casters, they do seem to work the best.

[Arcane Spellcaster] 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6
Or if you dont use early entry methods.
[Arcane Spellcaster] (3-4)/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mysic Theurge (4-3)

If you want to mix Invocations and Mysteries.
[Arcane Spellcaster] 1/ [Invocation-User] 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 5
Or if you dont use early entry methods.
[Arcane Spellcaster] (3-4)/[Invocation-User] 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge (3-2)



(3-4): Some arcane classes get 2nd level spells at 3rd, like the wizard, others gain them at 4th, like the sorcerer and bard.

(4-3) and (3-2): The levels remaining before 20th level available for mystic theurge, pending on if your initial arcane casting class requires 3 or 4 levels to attain 2nd level spells. These are lined up respectively to the (3-4) next to [arcane spellcaster]. None of these take into account classes like the Hexblade, who attain their 2nd level of spells significantly later.

[123456789blaaa]

Anima Mage can technically work with the adaptation, but its class abilities don't really function with mysteries as written since they're not spells.

Noctumancer is better than MT simply because it has class features, but you can combine them, so just use both and hit dual 9s.

Debatable:


Your kind of right but really the whole thing is a big mess.

on page 111 it says the shadowcaster is "less versatile than other spellcasters." This defines shadowcasters as spellcasters.

it goes on to say "like most spell users, her role depends largely on the magic she chooses."

It then immediately contradicts itself on page 112 by saying "You do not cast spells, as other classes do."

It then swings back the other way again by saying "Mysteries represent thought patterns an formulae so alien that other spells seem simple in comparison." This defines mysteries as spells again....

"You cast them as though they were arcane spells."

"Whenever you cast a mystery as an arcane spell..."

"Now function as spell-like abilities" so not spells anymore...

It then says at the very very end on page 113
"Even though as a shadow caster you do not "cast spells" in the traditional sense" This implies that you DO cast spells in some sense, just not in the traditional sense, whatever that is.

So yeh, I just assume this very sheltered designer never read any of the other books or concerned himself with thoughts of how his pretty poorly designed and worded class would interact with the information that might be in them.

And it gets even more messy with the "functions as spell/SLA/Su" thing.

[Xuldarinar]

Debatable:



And it gets even more messy with the "functions as spell/SLA/Su" thing.

I do agree it can be debatable. But we have to consider the class features of the anima mage.

Exploit Vestige: Would likely provide 1 additional use of a single mystery you know. Otherwise unusable.

Vestigal Awareness: Irrelivant

Vestige Metamagic: Adapt to metashadow, or it is unusable.

Vestige Casting: You could likely use this as is. Just use a mystery as an immediate action. The metamagic modifications are irrelevant in this case however.


Regardless, adapted it would advance binding and mysteries just fine. The question just lies in if these abilities work in addition to that.

[Psyren]

Debatable:

Most statements prefaced with "technically" are.

[123456789blaaa]

Most statements prefaced with "technically" are.

The way you phrased it, only the statement "Anima Mage can work with the adaptation" had "technically" apply to it. Your other statements of "its class abilities don't really function with mysteries as written" and "they're not spells" were separate.

[Psyren]

The way you phrased it, only the statement "Anima Mage can work with the adaptation" had "technically" apply to it. Your other statements of "its class abilities don't really function with mysteries as written" and "they're not spells" were separate.

That's accurate, they were separate. Mysteries are not spells, even if you cast them like spells.

I thought you were saying the qualification was debatable, which I was saying was obvious.

[123456789blaaa]

That's accurate, they were separate. Mysteries are not spells, even if you cast them like spells.

I thought you were saying the qualification was debatable, which I was saying was obvious.

Yeah, the bolded part is basically what I was trying to debate. I think it could even be argued that they're still spells even when they "function" as SLA's or Su's (though how much use that would be is questionable).

[Xuldarinar]

Yeah, the bolded part is basically what I was trying to debate. I think it could even be argued that they're still spells even when they "function" as SLA's or Su's (though how much use that would be is questionable).

Mysteries are not spells, period. You are literally shaping the shadow of magic itself into effects that are similar to spells. Are powers, infusions, soulmelds or invocations spells?

They function similarly to arcane spells to start, then further separate themselves from spells, becoming 'spell-like abilities', then supernatural. Even when they are 'arcane', they react with traditional spells only distantly.

[123456789blaaa]

Mysteries are not spells, period. You are literally shaping the shadow of magic itself into effects that are similar to spells. Are powers, infusions, soulmelds or invocations spells?

They function similarly to arcane spells to start, then further separate themselves from spells, becoming 'spell-like abilities', then supernatural. Even when they are 'arcane', they react with traditional spells only distantly.

See the quote by Gotterdammerung I posted above. Powers, infusions, soulmelds, and invocations do not have those quotes.

Why constantly refer to them being spellcasters and casting spells if they do not cast spells? It's debatable but I would not say it's an open-and-shut case.

[Xuldarinar]

Given I already discussed shadowcaster theurges here, I might as well ask this question here as well.


How well do you think a Shadowcaster/Dragonfire Adept would work?

Within official content, the optimal progression would be: Any arcane spellcasting class 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 5
That would net: Mysteries as 18th level shadowcaster, Invocations and Breath weapon as 16th level Dragonfire Adept.

I've started working on a theurgic class between the two for a more solid mix, but that is aside from the discussion.

[Piggy Knowles]

The shadowcaster's biggest problem is the extraordinarily low number of mysteries it can use per day, so adding on something like DFA that can use decent abilities at will isn't a terrible idea.

That said, I still think the best class for a shadowcaster to theurge with is just straight-up, boring old wizard. Arcane spells can fill in a lot of the gaps with the shadowcaster, and Creeping Darkness makes multiclassing way less painful than it could be.

[Fax Celestis]

I would be remiss to not link this here: the Penumbracarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34260), an incarnum/shadowcasting theurge.

[Xuldarinar]

I would be remiss to not link this here: the Penumbracarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34260), an incarnum/shadowcasting theurge.

That looks quite good.


I would be remiss not to bring up this bit. A Theurge for all occasions: (*) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283503)