Save and Suck Spells

[ZamielVanWeber]

I know there are high level spells that apply good sized debuffs on a successful save, with a (near) death effect on a failed one, such as Eternity of Torture and Arboreal Transformation.

Are there any others in this vein, especially at lower levels?

[Chronos]

It'll depend on what you mean by "near death", since spells that completely and permanently incapacitate enemies don't show up at all until about level 5 (Baleful Polymorph). But if you just mean "disable enemies to the extent that most of the difficulty of the encounter is removed", then we can go much lower.

Off the top of my head, Web screws over most enemies pretty well regardless of saves, and Glitterdust will screw over anything dependent on invisibility or stealth even with a save.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Glitterdust is another, but I am mostly looking for saves that apply a debuff on a SUCCESSFUL save.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Grease. Fear is shaken for one round on a successful save. Entangle. Sleet Storm. Spike Growth/Stones.

Ray of Enfeeblement has no save, just a ranged touch attack roll; same with Ray of Clumsiness. Ray of Stupidity has no save, just an attack roll, and is damage not a penalty. Black Tentacles has no save and slows movement. Solid Fog has no save. Acid Fog has the same effect.

[Namfuak]

Glitterdust is another, but I am mostly looking for saves that apply a debuff on a SUCCESSFUL save.

Grease doesn't strictly apply a debuff, but if the enemy has fewer than 5 ranks in balance, even on a successful save they are still considered flat-footed while they stand in the grease.

[Agincourt]

Stun Ray is a good one (SC). On a successful save, the subject is stunned for 1 round. If the save is unsuccessful, they are stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. SR: yes makes it somewhat less useful, but making a ranged touch attack shouldn't be a problem.

[Nettlekid]

Final Rebuke. It has a lot of tags that foes can be immune to, which limits how good it is, but it is an outright Save or Die on a failed save and dazes on the successful save, which is pretty good all around.

[Story]

Kelgore's Grave Mist causes fatigue with no save.

[Chronos]

Glitterdust does apply a debuff on a successful save: It negates invisibility and gives a massive penalty to Hide. Granted, that's a debuff that a great many enemies won't care about, but for those that do care, it's huge.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Felldrain Magic Missile; 3rd level slot.

1) No save
2) Can't miss.
3) Untyped damage.
4) When it deals damage it also deals a negative level.
5) It deals damage up to 5 times.

[Dumbledore lives]

Web is one of my favorites. Even if you save you still can't move without significant checks and actions. Stay here while we pelt you with arrows essentially. All the fogs are good examples as well, starting with solid fog.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Obscuring mist is a no save, suck.


Cast it to include a wizard and he has no Line of Sight. No LOS, no spells. Funniest thing my sorceress tends to do when dueling wizards is readying a 'mist and countering their save-or-lose 9th level spells with a lowly lvl 1 spell.

[ben-zayb]

Power Word Fatigue is a L1 "just suck" spell. Power Word Pain is a L1 "just die" spell.

[Saintheart]

Felldrain Magic Missile; 3rd level slot.

1) No save
2) Can't miss.
3) Untyped damage.
4) When it deals damage it also deals a negative level.
5) It deals damage up to 5 times.

Pretty much any direct damage spell, Fell Drained, is of a similar character. Magic Missile is defeated by Shield, and other direct damage spells usually have counters (i.e. resistance spells).

[Killer Angel]

suck even on a save?
well, it's not a spell, but... dust of sneezing. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Pretty much any direct damage spell, Fell Drained, is of a similar character. Magic Missile is defeated by Shield, and other direct damage spells usually have counters (i.e. resistance spells).
Well, except for a searing orb of fire. Just about the only defense against that is a high touch AC, and touch AC is tricky as hell to raise. I've heard the argument that mettle works against it, but I generally disagree with that argument, and it's a pretty rare and difficult to get ability anyway. You could always make it an orb of force instead, I suppose, but then you're stopped by the tiny number of force immune enemies.

[ben-zayb]

You could always make it an orb of force instead, I suppose, but then you're stopped by the tiny number of force immune enemies.And forceward.

More usually unheard of options include:
Ego Whip (Psion/Wilder 2): technically a Power, but augmentable 1d4 Cha damage, Will half is ripe for breaking
Rot of Ages (1): Sicken on failed save, and opponents having concealment regardless of save is just cruel (especially vs a Rogue)
Scale Weakening(2): technically no save; situational, but can remove as much as +15 natural amor bonus to enemies
Choking Cobwebs (7): needs to save per round vs sicken, which complement well with its default BFC lock and vision blocking; it has an inefficient multicast option for better BFC
Avasculate (7) and Avascular Mass (8): Oh, a very sick spell that leaves opponents with 50% HP at minimum! Spites even more with a 1 round stun on those who fail save

[Feytalist]

Not a specific spell, but some feats give you that option. Unsettling Enchantment from Complete Mage, for instance. Any creature required to make a save against your enchantment spell gets debuffed for a round, regardless of the save result.

[Mystia]

Kelgore's Grave Mist causes fatigue with no save.

Apply Fell Drain to it and we get a area no save spell that causes fatigue and level drain. Impossible not to love this.

Btw, I've noticed no one has mentioned it yet, but I love Death by Thorns (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/death-by-thorns--137/).

[Story]

Well, except for a searing orb of fire. Just about the only defense against that is a high touch AC, and touch AC is tricky as hell to raise. I've heard the argument that mettle works against it, but I generally disagree with that argument, and it's a pretty rare and difficult to get ability anyway. You could always make it an orb of force instead, I suppose, but then you're stopped by the tiny number of force immune enemies.

There's one pretty common defense - being an undead or construct. Death Ward would probably work too.