Sorcerer dip for a rogue?

[Flame of Anor]

I have a rogue 8/fighter 2 in a low-op campaign (though I confess to generally playing medium-op) and am considering a sorcerer dip. Do you think this would work well? What spells would you recommend? I was thinking shield and grease to start with. How many levels would you recommend taking, and is there a good PrC to head for? The character is a melee type, focused on flanking and attacks of opportunity. Elf, if it matters.

[Waker]

It can work decently, it depends on exactly what you want to do. I imagine that you want Grease to enable more SAs and Shield to provide more AC. You might also consider Beguiler to provide more skill points or Warlock for at-will casting. If you meet the requirements, Suel Arcanamach would be a good choice for added HP and skill points.

[DeAnno]

If you do the dip, I suggest trying to get into Daggerspell Mage afterwards (or doing retraining of some Rogue levels if that is possible). DSM is very solid without being broken, it's like an Assassin except it functions better and isn't evil.

The main spell you want is Wraithstrike (a second level spell) I think. You may also want those 1st? level spells that let you sneak attack various constructs/undeads/plants etc, Golem Strike is one of them. The Swift series of spells from Spell compendium are also probably good (swift fly, swift expeditious retreat, maybe others I've forgotten).

There are probably some good out of combat spells too, depending on how good your party is at that sort of thing.

[SciChronic]

i would recommend a beguiler dip instead, you get most of the good control spells, Armored Mage, 3/4 BAB, good amount of skill points, and other benefits.

[ben-zayb]

If you do the dip, I suggest trying to get into Daggerspell Mage afterwards (or doing retraining of some Rogue levels if that is possible). DSM is very solid without being broken, it's like an Assassin except it functions better and isn't evil.
On the contrary, I suggest avoiding this prestige class like a plague, and take the Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) instead. It has a subtelty theme (as if the name wasn't a giveaway), progresses Sneak Attacks, and allows you to take divination spells like Hunter's Eye for more Sneak Attacks. It has d4 HP, but the skill points are just delicious. You could even get Abjurant Champion to fix your caster levels and make the Shield extra powerful.

[Waker]

On the contrary, I suggest avoiding this prestige class like a plague, and take the Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) instead. It has a subtelty theme (as if the name wasn't a giveaway), progresses Sneak Attacks, and allows you to take divination spells like Hunter's Eye for more Sneak Attacks. It has d4 HP, but the skill points are just delicious. You could even get Abjurant Champion to fix your caster levels and make the Shield extra powerful.

You can fix your lost caster levels by taking Practiced Caster. That way you get the boost to Divination, while taking none of the penalties to other schools.

[Agincourt]

I was thinking shield and grease to start with.

Wait to take Grease. For your first level of Sorcerer, Grease will last 1 round—long enough to make an enemy flat-footed for everyone but you. Once your next turn starts, the spell will end.

Once you have a feat available, consider taking Practiced Spellcaster from C. Arcane. That would make your Grease spell last four rounds longer than it otherwise would.

[Roguenewb]

A level of beguiler is super sweet. Its a sweet class. Sweet. DSM isn't bad, Unseen Seer is technically better, but DSM is such a cool flavor dude, and if you're trying to stay low-op, it does that better. DSMs problem is the huge pile of pre-reqs.

[Darrin]

Consider 4 levels of Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon): +2d6 sneak attack, 1st level Sorcerer casting, Cha +2, Con +2, two claw attacks, Natural Armor +1.

After that, Unseen Seer (Complete Mage): hunter's mercy FTW.

[Curmudgeon]

I have a rogue 8/fighter 2 in a low-op campaign (though I confess to generally playing medium-op) and am considering a sorcerer dip. Do you think this would work well?
No, I don't think so. You wouldn't be getting much spellcasting power, and you have to consider what you'd be losing instead: more Rogue.

The character is a melee type, focused on flanking and attacks of opportunity.
If you're focused on melee combat, you'll accomplish more along that line with additional Rogue levels. Rogue 9 gets you extra sneak attack, but Rogue 10 is the real payoff because you can pick a Rogue special ability. Crippling Strike deals 2 points of STR damage to your sneak attack. At the same level (character 12) you can take the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) and you'll be able to deliver that STR damage on every hit even when the target is immune to sneak attack. So flank those golems and just enfeeble them, melee style. :smallcool:

If you want spell power, Use Magic Device with wands is usually all that's needed.

[supervillan]

I agree with what Curmudgeon said, with one slight variation. I'd choose Opportunist instead of Crippling Strike as your first Rogue special ability at Rogue 10. I'm assuming that with your melee build you can get into flanking positions regularly.

If you really do want to mix in spellcasting, I'd go Wizard (Divination specialist) then Unseen Seer. You'd only need 1 level of wizard assuming you've got the skills covered, you'd have INT synergy, unseen seer will advance sneak attack and spellcasting, and give you access to very useful divination spells that will allow you to deal more sneak attack damage against more targets. However: d4 hit dice, makes you a bit more squishy for melee.

[Curmudgeon]

I agree with what Curmudgeon said, with one slight variation. I'd choose Opportunist instead of Crippling Strike as your first Rogue special ability at Rogue 10. I'm assuming that with your melee build you can get into flanking positions regularly.
The reason I prefer Crippling Strike is that Opportunist is just one AoO per round, and Savvy Rogue only improves that to one AoO per opponent per round. In practice, unless your Rogue has considerable reach (say 15' or more) it rarely pays off. Crippling Strike is leveraged by the number of attacks (melee and ranged) you can make, including improvements from Snap Kick and Haste. Unless you've got a couple of reliable flanking partners or very long reach, I think the math works better for Crippling Strike than Opportunist.

[supervillan]

The reason I prefer Crippling Strike is that Opportunist is just one AoO per round, and Savvy Rogue only improves that to one AoO per opponent per round. In practice, unless your Rogue has considerable reach (say 15' or more) it rarely pays off. Crippling Strike is leveraged by the number of attacks (melee and ranged) you can make, including improvements from Snap Kick and Haste. Unless you've got a couple of reliable flanking partners or very long reach, I think the math works better for Crippling Strike than Opportunist.

I think your reasoning is sound, but IMO the extra Xd6 damage you'll deal from Opportunist attacks ends fights faster than the STR damage you'll deal from Crippling Strike.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

[HalfQuart]

I was thinking shield and grease to start with.
As Agincourt pointed out, Grease won't work for you due to it's 1 round duration. Shield has a duration problem too in that at 1 min/level you either have to cast it in combat, which makes for a rather wasted turn when you usually should be killing someone instead, or you use it just before a combat to buff -- but at least in my experience you only rarely get a buffing round. So I'd say skip Shield unless you're planning on going into Abjurant Champion.

The other thing to think about is whether you'll be wearing armor. If so, you'll probably want to pick spells without a somatic component or take a class that can cast in armor (e.g. Beguiler). Battle Sorcerer ACF could work, but you get even fewer spells known, which is very painful. With a bit of revisionism, you could take the Armored Mage Fighter ACF (CM 32) to be able to cast in Light armor.

[Captnq]

Nerveskitter. Never go wrong with speed.

A level of sorcerer gives you access to Arcane scrolls, wands and staves.

But usually, it's pointless. However...

Divine companion turns your familiar into an energy storing thingie that heals and shields you.

Or dungeonscape Spell shield. Give up your familiar and you can ditch a spell to heal 5 x level in damage.

[Juntao112]

I have a rogue 8/fighter 2 in a low-op campaign (though I confess to generally playing medium-op) and am considering a sorcerer dip.
Doesn't that strike you as needlessly complicated? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See if your DM will drop the evil alignment and special prerequisites of Assassin in exchange for removing its Death Attack and maybe Poison Use abilities, and go with that instead. You'll get plenty of utility spells and useful class features while still advancing your sneak attack and skills. You have exactly enough levels remaining before epic to max it out, and it even gives you Hide in Plain Sight.

[turbo164]

See if your DM will drop the evil alignment and special prerequisites of Assassin in exchange for removing its Death Attack and maybe Poison Use abilities, and go with that instead. You'll get plenty of utility spells and useful class features while still advancing your sneak attack and skills. You have exactly enough levels remaining before epic to max it out, and it even gives you Hide in Plain Sight.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Avenger is the non-evil-twin of the Assassin.

[Curmudgeon]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Avenger is the non-evil-twin of the Assassin.
Of course, that "prestige class" is also an April Fool's joke, so many DMs will treat it as such rather than a viable class option.

[Deaxsa]

Doesn't that strike you as needlessly complicated? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

This is why we need the ability to up vote....

[Flame of Anor]

Doesn't that strike you as needlessly complicated? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Not until this moment, no.