help my players beat the BBEG

[samuraijaques]

hey guys,

i have been running an ad-lib campaign for about 20 sessions now. my players have gone from level 5 to 13, slayed countless enemies, accomplished amazing feats of strength and cunning, made friends, lost friends and overall it's been an amazing ride.

I recently decided that it was time to introduce the BBEG. he is a focused specialist conjurer that took the malconvoker prestige class and is specialized in using summon monster to summon his own custom list of demons. right now he has the party trapped and he is essentially using summon monster to summon them to places all over the planes to fight evil so that they can "serve penance for their crimes".

I wanted to make him a challenge because he is the BBEG and they have been destroying basically everything i throw at them thus far. but i am worried i may have gone too far.

here is the list of things that he has done so far.

1. captured the party wizard by using divert teleport and a cage in an anti-magic field
2. captured the monk and the druid with the strategic use of bands of steel and illusions.
3. sent the whole party to their deaths 3 times (when they die they just pop back up in his base in restraints)
4. tracked down the wizard after he escaped twice, in one case he sent trained assassins after him to subdue him non-magically and in one instance appeared himself and summoned demons to take him down.
5. popped up wall of stone around the monk after he slipped his chains using Ex freedom of movement from vow of poverty, twice.

basically i think my players think that there is no way to escape but i can think of tons. I don't want to slow ball them and just make the BBEG fall over because i want this to be a challenge.

more than anything though i want this to be fun for them

what should i do?

TL;DR - read the numbered list and tell me if that kind of stuff would bother you as a player or if it seems like too much for a BBEG to be able to do.

looking forward to hearing from you

cheers

[Vaz]

Isn't VoP Su anyway?

Not sure how Summoning works in your games, but you don't summon specific creatures with it. That is calling.

The wizard shoukd have an Adamantine Dagger lying around as a multitool.

You have a VoP monk in a party with Wizards and Druids. I'm not sure that the players are that into optimizing enough to be able to counter some of your situations. The druid should have wild shaped, the bands would become part of the new form and it would be free to move. It takes the form of a dore bear and crushes the monks bands. The monk then uses his Adamantine Dagger to cut through.

The wizard was tracked down by assassins: why didn't it rope trick and come out all guns blazing?

Right now it sounds like you are just steamrolling and traintracking the party, anythingthey do you have an immediate counter for regardless of how unlikely it was (ie a VoP monk slipping his restraints only to be Wall of Stoned)

[Killer Angel]

I don't understand how can we "help your players": you're the DM, and you can think to "tons" of ways for your players to escape. Are you going to pass your players our suggestions?

That said:


1. captured the party wizard by using divert teleport and a cage in an anti-magic field
2. captured the monk and the druid with the strategic use of bands of steel and illusions.
3. sent the whole party to their deaths 3 times (when they die they just pop back up in his base in restraints)
4. tracked down the wizard after he escaped twice, in one case he sent trained assassins after him to subdue him non-magically and in one instance appeared himself and summoned demons to take him down.
5. popped up wall of stone around the monk after he slipped his chains using Ex freedom of movement from vow of poverty, twice.



TL;DR - read the numbered list and tell me if that kind of stuff would bother you as a player or if it seems like too much for a BBEG to be able to do.

After three failures, thanks to things almost out of the blue, i (as a player) would start to doubt I can really do something.
The n. 3 of your list is especially demotivating.

[Captnq]

{scrubbed}

[Hamste]

Divert teleport does exists.... it's just a psionics power not a spell so the BBEG should not have it.

There is also desert diversion, but that doesn't really work.

Also bands of steel are a spell not an item (well it could be but they probably meant the spell) or a mundane item.

Also as mentioned how are you summoning them? The only way even close is baleful teleport and that doesn't force them to obey at all.

[Tim Proctor]

Here is what I suggest, have another BBEG attack and wreck the place. The entrance of a new enemy should give them group enough time to formulate an escape path and a new battle strategy.

Either that or tell your group to stop splitting, and playing smart.

EDIT: Also if you are not giving 3 clues on how to escape then you should be.

[relytdan]

here is the list of things that he has done so far.
1. captured the party wizard by using divert teleport and a cage in an anti-magic field
2. captured the monk and the druid with the strategic use of bands of steel and illusions.
3. sent the whole party to their deaths 3 times (when they die they just pop back up in his base in restraints)
4. tracked down the wizard after he escaped twice, in one case he sent trained assassins after him to subdue him non-magically and in one instance appeared himself and summoned demons to take him down.
5. popped up wall of stone around the monk after he slipped his chains using Ex freedom of movement from vow of poverty, twice.

basically i think my players think that there is no way to escape but i can think of tons. I don't want to slow ball them and just make the BBEG fall over because i want this to be a challenge.

more than anything though i want this to be fun for them

what should i do?

1. The BBEG is using powers and abilities not described- DM is Cheating
2. The BBEG bands of steel -Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex partial- most illusions offer saves and spell resistence DM is Cheating
3. The BBEG (when they die they just pop back up in his base in restraints) all spells that offer saves, and none of them teleport, transport or otherwise DM is Cheating
4. The BBEG -tracked down the wizard- through what method(s)? most spells that do that sort of thing offer saves and spell resistence- Hirelings Assassins- while the assassin has some abilities they certainly do not have track, scent or the like - just how do they find a competent wizard who should have spells like teleport - DM is Cheating
5. The BBEG -popped up wall of stone around the monk - monk take 10 if needed climb the wall, use monk ki abilities to surpass wall hardness and break the stone - DM is Cheating

In my opinion - Dm you have cheated - your players should flog you, quit and then flog you again

[Captnq]

Divert teleport does exists.... it's just a psionics power not a spell so the BBEG should not have it.


Oh.
I am so sorry.
I made the assumption that being a malconvoker and someone who casts spells that we were dealing with a spellcaster. How silly of me.

Let's see… The NPC is a minimum 5th level spellcaster to qualify for malconvolker. From how he was described, the BBEG is a 9th level malconvoker. To be able to use divert teleport, he is also a minimum 13th level psionicist.

The BBEG is a minimum challenge rating 27.
The party is 13th level.

I cannot say anything that could be even remotely productive at this point.
I am filled with boundless rage.

Captain Quaalude, Out.

[Elycium]

Here is what I suggest, have another BBEG attack and wreck the place. The entrance of a new enemy should give them group enough time to formulate an escape path and a new battle strategy.

Either that or tell your group to stop splitting, and playing smart.

EDIT: Also if you are not giving 3 clues on how to escape then you should be.

I don’t see this as a good solution, I mean, if the new BBEG could do such thing, he would be stronger than the older BBEG, and that would be silly, I mean, you are introducing an even more menacing enemy when the players can’t beat the weakest one?

[Zancloufer]

Love how a DM comes on and Says "I made BBEG too powerful, how can I make it so the party can escape without making it worse" and everyone yells at the DM for not following the rules (Despite the DMG says the DM can 'Rule 0') and say that he should be flogged.

At first, introducing a single horribly over 'CR' enemy might seem stupid, but if he is only one man and the party isn't suppose to beat him, yet, anything near CR the party could stomp and ruin the DM's plans.

Now, it doesn't seem THAT bad except for the constant shut downs of their escapes. Maybe make him get overconfident, and start letting things been left lying around. Or maybe he just gets bored and forgets to lock their bindings, or some of the magical protections where off. Let the party escape, and wreck some of his stuff. Like some sort of Artifact or two that helps him with his custom scrying/summoning spells he has.

Make it worth A LOT of EXP and leave a ton of decent loot lying around. If his blatant OP powers where linked to artifacts that the PCs could destroy/steal not only would it explain how he does what he does, but limit/remove his ability to do it to the party in the future so they aren't as worried about him coming back and doing the exact same thing again.

[Deophaun]

A lot of criticisms here are on the mark, but let's still try to save your game anyway, shall we?

First, let's look at what conditions we have to satisfy:
-Sandboxing is out. The players are not going to think their way out of this because you have punished all their previous attempts to do so. If you wait for them to come up with the "right" solution, you may as well end the game.
-The villain's behavior should not change. You've established his modus operandi, as broken as it is, and changing it now means that the players are, essentially, playing against a different villain than the one that has caused them all this grief.
-Introducing a more powerful force to counter the villain will just make the players feel even more impotent. Don't do this... at least not directly...
-The end must be satisfying. This villain has screwed with the party for so long that he needs to get what's coming to him good and hard.

So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with Iggy.

Who is Iggy?

Why, Iggy is the first evil outsider the Malconvoker ever summoned. He's an imp, and your BBEG doesn't know this, but Iggy serves the one that made sure the Vital Pact fell into the BBEG's hands in the first place. Iggy has long since been bound (through planar binding and the knowing but anonymous permission of Iggy's true master) to aid the BBEG, and even helped in securing the Malconvoker's summoning list (being a devil, this was done through a very complex legal document; does your Malconvoker have ranks in Profession: Lawyer? Probably not).

Yes, Iggy has been with the Malconvoker for basically everything that mattered in the guy's career. Even knows how he's managing to summon the players. It's a dark art, very dark. Dark enough to damn that Malconvoker, turning the tables and forcing him into their service.

Well, it's time Iggy's master collects on his investment. The players were a means to damn the Malconvoker's soul, but they've also proved a bit troublesome. A bit too much power in the Malconvoker's hands for the master's taste. But, the master knows of the party's hatred for the Malconvoker, and he's exercised a hidden clause in Iggy's contract to get Iggy to make a proposition and render assistance. As Iggy was the one who made the contracts the Malconvoker relies upon, well, Iggy also knows how to void them. With the players' assistance, the Malconvoker will be thrown to the uncaring mercies of the powers he once commanded.

[John Longarrow]

I gather you are using the form of summon monster where you can always grab the same one(s). If so, you may have a way out that can work.

Let the party have some time to talk to another summoned being for a bit while the BBEG is getting his fight on. This can be done by having party and other monster summoned to deal with what appeared as a hard fight, but now they are kinda hanging out till their time expires.

Summoned being lets on a few things they've found out about BBEG (if players talk) including a weakness or two.

As you've been portraying this BBEG as being all powerful, I'd be surprised if your players think your willing to run your game another way. This is especially true with your BBEG trying to make them "Serve penance for their crimes".

If you really want a unique way out, let the players find out BBEGs weakness is his belief he is really doing good while he is doing evil. Players will need to gather enough evidence to demonstrate the BBEG is "EVIL", then confront him with his own actions. You can choose any of a dozen different reactions, anything from the classic "What have I done??" to the emergence of an alternate personality that battles the evil side for control.

Main issue is your players have probably given up on trying to escape, so you have to give them a way out. Check with your players first though. If they actually like being "On demand, all fighting, No permanent consequences", then you may discover they like a "Monster of the week" game and this really does work for them.

[samuraijaques]

Jesus tap dancing Christ. So. Much. Hate

Honestly, it's not like I am doing this to you. I came here to find out if i was doing something messed up or if my players were just being little babies. I guess i have that answer.

@Vaz
- Vow of poverty freedom of movement is Ex
- There is a summon monster variant that allows you to summon specific creatures, the BBEG is using his own specific magical powers to allow him to summon the players.
- I only say monk in the sense that he uses unarmed fighting. He probably lands around tier 2.
- Bands of steel is a spell that specifically grows with you if you change size
- The wizard was in an anti-magic field (of his own choosing)
- The BBEG was in the same room with the monk when he slipped his bands. he watched him do it. What would you have done if you were him and had wall of stone prepared.

@killer angel
By "help my players beat the BBEG" I meant "help me help my players beat the BBEG"

@captnq
- The BEEG is using a variant of summon monster and his own special BBEG ability to basically add the players to his summon list
- Divert teleport is a psionic power that i gave the BBEG because without it there is basically nothing he can do against a wizard other than letting him rot in an anti-magic field. Which would not be fun.
- Bands of steel is a spell. Consider Google
- The illusion was that they were in Baator and stuck between a cliff into lava and a massive army of devils. They both rolled to save against the illusion and both failed.
- While funny, the sarcasm isn't terribly helpful. They were supposed to be unbeatable scenarios. The players are serving "penance" each death gets them closer to atonement. The upside is that they get to be outside and talk and plot and scheme and whatnot.
- There were 3 assassins, they were each CR 6
- See the above response, the BBEG was looking at the monk when he cast wall of stone. Both times
- There are plenty of ways to escape. The reason he isn't just using their true names and binding them is then they might as well be dead. This way they can still escape, however impossible that seems

and now we arrive at the part of your post where you use polymorph any object to turn into a colossal dildo. congrats, you get to keep its intelligence score (pst, it doesn't have one).

I really do want my players to have fun. If they aren't having fun then there is absolutely no reason to play this game.

1. Not trolling
2. Not cheating, I am the DM and he is the BBEG, yes he gets to do stuff that normal NPC can't. He's level 15, yes i made a character sheet, he only needed 3 ninjas, he rules no nation, the players care because he is making them do things against their will, and summoned creatures return to where they came from when they die while they are being summoned.
3. Nope, I want them to beat him so bad I can taste it. He is a self righteous **** and deserves a slow death at the hands of fat greasy demons with barbed penises. But I am not about to just tip him over, I wanted a character that took time to defeat. I am going to assume you missed the part where I said this was an ad lib campaign. Meaning I am not planning any of this out

OH MY GOD. Arriving on a golden freaking chariot, doves fly out and an immaculate chorus rings through the clouds, SOME ADVICE. Or you know, that thing I asked for in the beginning before you went and wrote your thesis paper on how being an ass isn't helpful to anybody.

A. Isn't going to happen without a good reason, B, C and D are all great suggestions. D I already did and C I already suggested.

His death will be amazing. That dude has pissed off so many demons and devils and fiends that if they took turns violating his ******* he would be a pile of bloody guts before a third of them were done.

Maybe next time consider being helpful instead of flaming.

@hamste
See above comment on why the BBEG has divert teleport. It's to prevent the wizard from just leaving. He is summoning them using variant summon monster rules and his own special BBEG powers

@tim proctor
I'm not sure about introducing another BBEG, I feel like that will just cause more problems. So one of my players mentioned the rule about the 3 clues. Definitely need to do that. That might have just solved it actually. Thanks dude

@relytdan
1. Divert teleport is a power which he has because I gave it to him. Not really cheating
2. The druid failed his save against bands of steel and was quickly teleported away by Bar-lgura before the duration expired. The monk failed his save against the illusions and has no spell resistance. Not cheating at all
3. The BBEG is using his own powers to add them to his list of summonable monsters. Summoned monsters go back where they came when they die while summoned. Summon monster offers no save. Not really cheating
4. The wizard was in one spot, like literally a 10 ft radius for 10 days in an anti-magic field (of his own choosing). In a city full of spies and information brokers. Not cheating at all
5. The wall of stone is fused with the ceiling and floor, he couldn't climb it if he wanted to. He did try and break out. it just took too long to matter. NOT EVEN REMOTELY CHEATING

I really wish more people could be as helpful as you

@zancloufer
Yay help! Thanks dude. He really isn't horribly over CR, he's only level 15. originally I wasn't going to have his powers be tied to any artifact but I think that might actually be the way to go. Have the players mess up his powers while he is out or something.

Thank you so much for the helpful reply

@deophaun
Yay more help! Actually I can one up you. The devil that the BBEG got his powers from still totally exists and would be pissed to find out that he was using it to kill devils and evil creatures. His name is Hate**** and he would love to get his hands on the BBEG, among other appendages.

Thanks for the helpful reply

@john longarrow
Huzzah an end to the flaming! Definitely not a bad plan, the only problem is the players try and escape every chance they get so there typically isn't very much conversation. Convincing the BBEG that he is evil is unfortunately not going to work, he's lawful neutral, he's doing this for justice not for good.

-closing statement-

Overall I'm kind of bummed at the first set of responses. I really am trying to make a challenging BBEG that doesn't just fall over when you look at him funny. I never had any intention of cheating or making the game not fun in any way. The fact that so many of you assumed that is a little offensive.

Thank you to those who elected to be helpful. I look forward to hearing more from you.

[Brookshw]

made friends
Who are these friends and do they still live? Could they get some sendings to the party and maybe find a way to offer assistance? Nothing direct perhaps but a teleport any object with a contingency AMF to go off upon it's arrival at the teleport destination? Could the players get messages "out" to said friends? Or even couple it with that Iggy suggestion to have him carry out minor tasks.


Divert teleport is a power which he has because I gave it to him

No objections here to giving unique monsters/BBEGs special abilities, but perhaps the edit: there was acost to acquire the power came with it? Like every third full he has to travel to a remote location to refresh the pact that grants the power? Gives the players a chance to try and escape while he's on extended leave?

Definitely seems like you've tweaked some rules a bit to your liking but hey, your campaign, as long as everyone's happy then all's well! One thing to mention, and I realize that you seem to have homebrewed this, but per what I've read in AfroAkuma's planar thread (not sure of canon/RAW off hand) summoned creatures are not actual creatures, they're formed of the planes themselves raw substances rather than being something 'real' (makes you wonder about the "go back rather than die" bit doesn't it). Again though, if you've ruled away from it you've ruled away from it.

Good luck, if I come up with any other suggestions I'll post em.

Edit: I hate when I catch myself using bad grammar :smallfurious:

[Gavinfoxx]

You can't summon a particular creature, you are creating a genericized version of the creature.

To get a particular creature to your location, you need a calling spell. That is entirely different than summoning.

[Gazzien]

Yes, yes, we all flame / hate the person with BBEGs who are more powerful than the players, that never happens, blah blah. Okay, obligatory flaming and hate over with, here we go.

My one suggestion: Would it have been possible to use Anticipate Teleportation (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-arcane--55/anticipate-teleportation--435/) instead of Divert Teleport? That would make it a bit more solid, ability-wise.

[Deophaun]

OK, I'm just going to point out some rules issues.

- There is a summon monster variant that allows you to summon specific creatures, the BBEG is using his own specific magical powers to allow him to summon the players.
True, but it's not really open to just any creature, and things with class levels are pretty much out (because they're going to cease to be appropriate, power-wise, for the spell). You have to note the CR. Your players are CR 13(?). That's pushing the boundaries of Summon Monster IX. And if he's summoning the whole party at once, we're definitely into Epic spell territory here. That's a bit much from a mechanical standpoint. Then we get the fact that you're hitting players with an ability that teleports them across planes, strips them of their free will, and offers no save or means of gaining immunity. It's very harsh.

- Divert teleport is a psionic power that i gave the BBEG because without it there is basically nothing he can do against a wizard other than letting him rot in an anti-magic field. Which would not be fun.
There is forbiddance (achievable for a Malconvoker through planar binding a planetar), as well as the more direct dimensional anchor. These are core spells.

EDIT:

My one suggestion: Would it have been possible to use Anticipate Teleportation instead of Divert Teleport? That would make it a bit more solid, ability-wise.
Anticipate Teleport helps delay people teleporting into the area, but does nothing to stop someone teleporting out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When he's summoned them somewhere, they can use (Chain Spell) Dismissal or Banishment on themselves to return to their home plane and thus escape. They can also use Dimensional Anchor to prevent themselves from returning to his prison when his summon spell ends, then Teleport or Plane Shift away after that's ended. Another option would be for the Wizard to cast Antimagic Field as soon as they're summoned, as they're the effect of a spell they'll cease to exist as long as the AMF lasts and just pop back in his lair when the summon spell ends. This will pretty much automatically thwart every attempt of his at getting them to fight for him. If I had more specifics on the facility he's holding them in and the PCs' capabilities then I could come up with something more specific.

Minor nitpick, if he's using a Summon Monster spell to summon level 13 PCs (each CR 13) as a 15th level character with Wizard 14 casting, something is wrong. The Summon Monster IX list contains creatures in the CR 9-12 range, with only one (Fiendish Colossal Spider) at CR 13. That's a 9th level summon monster spell for a single CR 13 creature. Summon Monster VII (the highest he can cast at his current level) only has one creature listed above CR 9, the Fiendish Giant Octopus, at CR 10. He would need to cast Summon Monster IX five times to summon the whole party. He could opt use Planar Binding instead to call any of them, but only one of them at a time and they could simply refuse to serve him and exit the trap via Plane Shift or similar or by any of the other methods described in Lesser Planar Binding. What he's doing with them should be well out of reach for his current level/CR.

[AKA_Bait]

Overall I'm kind of bummed at the first set of responses. I really am trying to make a challenging BBEG that doesn't just fall over when you look at him funny. I never had any intention of cheating or making the game not fun in any way. The fact that so many of you assumed that is a little offensive.

I'd just like to chime in on the "cheating" thing and maybe attempt to cast some light on why some of the reactions you received were not that positive.


They were supposed to be unbeatable scenarios.

Many players, including me, don't think an unbeatable scenario is appropriate, not ever. There is always a chance that a much higher level character will fall, even if mostly by luck (failed that fort save eh?). Now, this is a choice of playstyle. Some groups are just fine with this kind of thing. You should just be sure that your players are on board with it. Otherwise, that there were such scenarios is the past is probably a large part of why your players think they cannot win now.


Not cheating, I am the DM and he is the BBEG, yes he gets to do stuff that normal NPC can't.

This is also something subject to debate. Many players feel like the DM is required to play by the same rules when constructing challenges and NPCs as the players are. Certainly, the game's CR system is designed with that in mind. While home brew is certainly ok in my book, it is important to remember that any added stuff you toss on a BBEG is going to increase the BBEG's CR. The more powerful the added ability, the higher the CR and the harder the BBEG will be to defeat in practice. I would also strongly suggest that any non-standard powers given to your BBEG have an in-game explanation for them that the party is made aware of.

----

Now, as for suggestions, why not have some of the evil creatures that they are being sent out to destroy offer to team up with them against the BBEG instead? After all, the enemy of their enemy... This should allow you to give the party extra options they didn't have before (e.g., many Demons and the like have plane shift abilities that can get the PC's away from where the BBEG thinks they should be and aren't subject to divert teleport) and permit you to provide tactics suggestions to the party in-game through the mouths of the demons.

[Tim Proctor]

why not have some of the evil creatures that they are being sent out to destroy offer to team up with them against the BBEG instead? After all, the enemy of their enemy... This should allow you to give the party extra options they didn't have before (e.g., many Demons and the like have plane shift abilities that can get the PC's away from where the BBEG thinks they should be and aren't subject to divert teleport).

This was my suggestion too, have one of his lieutenants or captains (or since he's using demons, I'd suggest a devil faction finds him) turn on him and decide he wants to be the boss. This should give the PCs enough time to escape and mount an offensive/defensive maneuver.

My question is why doesn't the BBEG just kill them?

[Stux]

The OP may have gone (more than) a little overboard, but I think all these claims of 'cheating' are absolutely ridiculous. Why should the BBEG be bound by RAW in terms of their abilities? I've honestly never played a game like that. He has created a very interesting scenario, having the players forcibly dispatched to perform tasks for the BBEG. I really don't think a DM should be bound by RAW when building compelling situations in their campaign. Maybe that's just my play group, but they are way more interested in role playing than rules lawyering their own DM!

Anyway, rant aside I totally agree with the others who have suggested having some other threat smash through the dungeon and temporarily distract the BBEG. Maybe have a Quarut and it's minions or similar turn up trying to whoop the BBEG for his crimes against the universe as a result of all his teleporting ripping holes in reality.

[Tim Proctor]

I really don't think a DM should be bound by RAW when building compelling situations in their campaign. Maybe that's just my play group, but they are way more interested in role playing than rules lawyering their own DM!

Interesting, I always make the BBEG bound by the same rules as character creation. Only they are two levels higher to account for there only being one of them instead of 4, 5, or 6. If the BBEG has a castle I have to account for how they got it, WBL, etc. if they have minions they have to have Leadership (only their lieutenants can have leadership also so it can't chain cascade), etc. I always have it so the BBEG can explain how each trap, minion, hench-person, obstacle, etc. to an accountant.

I think otherwise there are times (not all of them) where you end up with issues like this where the BBEG seems overpowered and people start accusing of cheating.

[samuraijaques]

@brookshw
Hey that is a wonderful idea. My players have made tons of powerful allies. There is even a little girl that is basically omnipotent that thinks they are the coolest people ever since they saved her life. She would totally help.

As to the summoning of specific creatures, he is using a variant rule, it's not homebrew. The variant allows you to summon one specific creature each time you use summon monster.

thank you for the helpful response

@gavinfoxx
Again, he is using a variant rule. It's in unearthed arcana I believe. It's not homebrew and yes he can do it. Just not specifically with the players

@gazzien
The only problem with that is it does nothing to stop the person from teleporting away

@deophaun
It does not strip them of their free will. They just get sent there. What they do there is completely up to them. It's up to the BBEG to put them in places where their best option is to do what he wants.

YES! Forbiddance was exactly what I was looking for. You are a rockstar.

@Biffoniacus_Furiou
Those are excellent suggestions thank you. If I wasn't basing what he is doing on summon monster then there would be no way for the BBEG to do anything to the party other than kill them. And that is not his style. He wants people to pay for their crimes. Can you think of another way to do that since everybody seems to hate this idea?

@AKA_bait
So the unbeatable encounters are largely irrelevant because they effectively can't die. In this instance it's basically like describing scenery. It means nothing to the players as far as their escape goes. If they were to beat the encounters they would be no closer to escape than they would be if they died.

His powers definitely come from a source, the players just haven't figured that out yet. I feel weird making the information magically spring into their head without any effort on their part.

As to your suggestion, that is a great idea that I will definitely be implementing

@tim proctor
The BBEG doesn't kill them because that wouldn't be enough of a punishment to atone for their misdeeds.

@stux
That was my thinking exactly. The more people suggest the prospect of something coming and attacking the BBEG the more I like it.

@tim proctor
I really wanted to make a character that was unique and presented a different kind of challenge to the players. If you can think of another way to do that using RAW I would love that.

Thank you for the continued help and replies. And thank you so much for being civil. I have lots of good ideas for how to help the players out.

looking forward to hearing from you all more

[Epsilon Rose]

Interesting, I always make the BBEG bound by the same rules as character creation. Only they are two levels higher to account for there only being one of them instead of 4, 5, or 6. If the BBEG has a castle I have to account for how they got it, WBL, etc. if they have minions they have to have Leadership (only their lieutenants can have leadership also so it can't chain cascade), etc. I always have it so the BBEG can explain how each trap, minion, hench-person, obstacle, etc. to an accountant.
I would think that following things that strictly (especially the leadership) would make it really hard to have a level appropriate BBEG, especially if they're the head of an impressive organization or country. It also seems to be undervaluing the action economy, that the BBEG is losing in.

[Deophaun]

It does not strip them of their free will. They just get sent there. What they do there is completely up to them. It's up to the BBEG to put them in places where their best option is to do what he wants.
Ah. In which case it's not really Summon Monster (as summons there have to obey you unless otherwise noted, such as botching a bluff check with the Malconvoker's class features).

But then we're left wondering why the players don't just dispel the summons. I have to ask: have they tried?

[gr8artist]

I shall try to be as helpful as I can, though I will likely forget to check back up on this. Off the top of my head, here is my advice:
1: You mention that the scenarios are "unbeatable." Be careful of this. The best "unbeatable" scenarios are ones that the players think they failed. The worst are when the players think they won, only to find out that the mission was doomed. I once had a climactic battle that NEEDED to be a win for the badguys, in order for the plot to continue. But my players didn't need to know that. They fought, and though they were killing the enemies without much loss, they were taking too long. They won the battle, but couldn't win AND stop the disaster in the given amount of time. They were passionate and upset that they had "lost," when in reality they'd done better than expected. The fact that I had to change the countdown for the disaster to accommodate their efficiency is props to them, and I let them know when the campaign ended months later.
2: Yes, your BBEG gets unique powers and stuff. That's fine. You don't even really need to keep track of his CR, if he's the campaign's final boss. Giving him psionics was weird, I'd recommend giving him that psionic ability's effects as a spell of equal level. Forcefully summoning the players is fine. They need to get from A to B? You make that happen. I'm not sure why everyone was giving you hell about it.
3: I would like to see a better explanation of the total situation. Who is the BBEG? What "crimes" did the players commit? Why is he forcing them to destroy evil if he's evil? Is there anyone who would come to the players' aid? How many of the BBEG's "missions" have they already been sent on, and how many still remain? Are the players being kept together or apart? Can they strategize and make plans? I gather that the BBEG isn't killing them outright, but that they instead return to his prison when they die in the battlefield? That's not really a fault of your BBEG, but rather poor encounter design or bad players. You opened a big can of worms with your phrasing.
4: You've thought of several ways they could escape. SHARE WITH US. It seems your best and most direct action would be to tell us how your players can win. Then we'll tell you how to fill them in... what clues or items to give them, etc.

You gave us abbreviated lists of the BBEG's accomplishments, situations that seem dire, and lots of negative info. Start over, explain the situation, and lay your cards on the table for us. I'm sure we can manage to help out.

[samuraijaques]

@epsilon rose
Thank you for that reassurance

@deophaun
It's based on summon monster. They haven't really tried much of anything short of just teleporting away or physically trying to remove themselves from their confinement. Dispelling has never come up.

@gr8artist
1. In my previous post I explained that the difficulty of the encounters is largely irrelevant. It makes no difference if they win or lose.
2. I did give it to him as a spell of equal level. thank you for the reassurance
3. The BBEG is something akin judge dredd. Unconcerned with good or evil, pure law. The BBEG is of the persuasion that the players need to atone for their crimes which I can assure you are numerous. They have slaughtered entire villages, pissed off at least 3 gods, stole from the poor, burned cities to the ground and generally respond to most situations with violence. The BBEG isn't evil, he is lawful neutral, he's making them fight evil because the evil creatures have committed the most "crimes" in his opinion. If there was a good creature that was committing crimes he would attempt to enact justice on them too. The players are being kept together while in prison but sent out to seperate locations. They have been on 2 missions so far. Theoretically they would continue doing it basically forever, the BBEG has a skewed perception of fairness.

Okay here is the list of possible ways of beating him that I can think of
- enlisting the help of any of their powerful friends while out on a mission through the use of a spell or ability like sending
- using the wizard's imp companion to get a message to someone or to physically enter the facility and attempt to break them out
- convince some of the demons that the BBEG has pissed off to turn on him
- teleport twice to throw off the BBEG's use of anticipate teleport, or teleport and then pop up an antimagic field to prevent the BBEG from scrying and determining his location. protection from scrying would also work here
- returning to the location of the tower after being sent out and leveling the place. It's well fortified but it's just a tower
- attempt to bargain with the BBEG and convince him to let them go. ( would require high diplomacy)
- sneak out in the night when the BBEG isn't around and find the source of his power (a large contract he has signed with devils)
- relentlessly try and escape. just brute force it. the monk would be the best at this. The BBEG doesn't want to kill them, and the monk doesn't need to breathe, eat or sleep and could attempt to escape all day every day forever. He would be bound to do it eventually.
- bargain with the enemies they are being sent to kill
EDIT - they could ask one of their gods for a favor, two of them are in pretty good with their respective god

and that's all I can think of

WHAT DO?!

thanks for the continued replies

[Red Fel]

I'm going to try to be constructive, because I agree that's important, but it will be hard for me. I understand that you're trying to make this villain (1) powerful enough to be a threat, (2) terrible enough to merit being the BBEG, and (3) bastardly enough that the players will revel in their final victory. My issue is that I find it disrupts narrative to have a villain who cannot be thwarted, cannot be swayed, cannot be obstructed or stopped in any way... and then suddenly he can, not by any action on the players' part, but by what amounts to a quirk in the plot. As a player, I would feel more like a spectator than an actor in such a storyline. But, as long as your players are enjoying it, that's the important thing.

All that aside:

1- I'll echo the earlier points about using his own mechanisms/minions against him. At this point, I'm afraid it's all the players can do - their own powers, alone, have proven no match for him. They need outside help, either by subverting his minions, or by harnessing his own power against him. For the sake of narrative continuity, you can't let anything that's failed to defeat him in the past succeed now, unless you can come up with a very good explanation as to why it would.

2- I question your designation of him as Lawful, for several reasons. First, he has effectively enslaved the players. Slavery is a Big Bad No-No, a very Evil action, not merely lawful. While Law is focused on creating order, loyalty and obedience, the options are generally "join us or die," not "join us or be forced against your will to join us." Second, I don't generally see Law as interested in atonement. Atonement is the idea that you can make up for your past crimes. Law - pure Law - is concerned with cause and effect. You committed an offense, you should pay the price. Do not pass go, do not try again, you pay now. I question whether depicting him as purely Lawful explains his desire to, effectively, inflict suffering on the characters. That strikes me more as Evil, or even Lawful Evil, than pure Lawful.

That said, that could be another way your players get him. Perhaps some of his power is derived from being LN. Perhaps there is a condition on his abilities that requires it. As I recall, Malconvokers must be non-evil. But what if his conduct, of late, is driving him from LN to LE without him realizing it? What if this will cause him to lose some of his powers, or for some of his designs to spiral out of control?

3- This one is more of a "for future reference." There seem to be a lot of suggestions as to how you could have achieved a similar effect without homebrewing powers. While I agree, coming up with clever tricks is not inherently bad, I find, as a rule, players are much more agreeable if everything functions mechanically the same way on your BBEG as it would on a normal NPC. The key isn't having unique abilities, necessarily, but using them better. Work smarter, not harder, as it were. For instance, if you want to enslave characters, many suggestions have been offered. You could magically ensnare them with geas, for example. Another method is the tried-and-true blackmail device. Threaten their loved ones, their homes, their source of power. There is no saving throw against blackmail. And in some ways, punishing them that way is infinitely more sadistic, because they must choose to return to you. You make it clear that if they run, if they escape, if they oppose, if they die and refuse to be resurrected, others will pay. That's one heck of a way to create a truly despised BBEG, one who takes more brains than power to defeat.

I hope this ends well for everybody involved. Except, of course, for the BBEG.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Assuming the BBEG is on site wherever they're summoned to and not in his lair, each time they're summoned they should make it a priority to get the Monk sent back via dispelling the summon effect. Since they know the BBEG won't be present in the lair he should be able to escape without issues. If the BBEG rushes back to the lair to prevent the Monk from escaping, the rest of them can use that as a distraction to use Dismissal or Banishment to get themselves back to their home plane and thus escape.

Make it so he can only summon the occupants of the specially prepared cells he has them locked in, to explain why he's able to use a summoning spell to get such powerful characters at his level. This will prevent him from just summoning them back and Dimensional Anchoring them in place to recapture them if they escape.

Once the Wizard and anyone else has escaped, they should group up at a suitable hideout via Teleport or whatever other means they have, and immediately use Limited Wish to get a Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) in place as a standard action. They can recast that every day to keep it rolling or just Permanency it, while they plan and prepare to assault the BBEG's lair. Note that Locate Creature does not work unless they're within the the spell's Long range, so as long as they hide out some distance from where the BBEG would be looking they should be safe.

Edit: Discern Location could still find them in the above scenario, but that's higher level than what the BBEG can cast. If they're paranoid about him using a scroll/staff of that, they can use Extended Rope Trick to create a hideout. Discern Location will reveal their location as in an extraplanar space, but not where that extraplanar space's opening to the material plane is located. He could Plane Shift to that space if he researches and then crafts the spell focus to travel to that specific location. That will likely take longer than that particular Rope Trick's duration and he'll have to start over each time it's cast.

[Sith_Happens]

1. In my previous post I explained that the difficulty of the encounters is largely irrelevant. It makes no difference if they win or lose.

That actually makes it even worse. Knowing not only that they can't win, but that it would make no difference if they did, is about as demoralizing as it gets.

[samuraijaques]

@red fel
He can definitely be thwarted. The players really just haven't tried much of anything.

1. All good there. I don't feel like asking for help from the friends they have made along the way to fight one last big bad evil guy is bad.
2. He doesn't want to see them suffer. It brings him no joy, he just thinks that they need to be punished for their crimes. Slavery happens to be the only punishment bad enough in his book. I would consider killing someone a worse offense then putting someone into slavery. perhaps atonement was the wrong word choice. Making him lose his malconvoker powers by becoming evil is a great idea.
3. I was under the impression that geas offered a save. That would totally have worked. Blackmail definitely wouldn't work. They don't really have anything their characters are really close to. Except maybe their power, how would I take that away from you?

thanks for the continued help

@Biffoniacus_Furiou
He isn't on site with them when he summons them places. He stays home. Plus his tower definitely has guards. I have already implemented the special summoning site that he uses. If they are outside of the altar that they are chained to then they cannot be summoned by him

@sith_happens
It's the equivalent of the room filling up with water as the group figures out their plan. Or the spiked ceiling coming down. It's just something that is happening while they are trying to escape.

[IronFist]

I would consider killing someone a worse offense then putting someone into slavery.
You would be wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).
EDIT: cool username, btw

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@Biffoniacus_Furiou
He isn't on site with them when he summons them places. He stays home. Plus his tower definitely has guards. I have already implemented the special summoning site that he uses. If they are outside of the altar that they are chained to then they cannot be summoned by him

In that case, they could just prepare the right spells and escape as soon as he sends them off to fight. They may have to make a Diplomacy check to convince the opponents they're summoned against that they don't want to fight, but that shouldn't be difficult. They may want to throw out a Limited Wish: Private Sanctum first thing as he'll definitely be scrying on the battle he summons them to, so he won't realize they're escaping until it's too late.

[samuraijaques]

@ironfist
But it's just slavery (not to diminish the severity of slavery). And not dying means possibly escaping. Also thank you.

@Biffoniacus_Furiou
Which seemed like an obvious answer to me. Glad i'm not the only one.

[LordBlades]

Honestly, I don't think your players will escape (not unless you offer them the solution on a silver platter).

First, you homebrewed certain abilities in your BBEG that were not achievable by him within the rules (Divert Teleport as a spell and the ability to summon the players). For me, as a player, this would be a sign of 'the DM really wants this course of action to come to pass' (aka railroading).

Then you thwarted everything they tried to alter said course of action (aka escape). As a player, I'd probably interpret that as 'you might as well sit down and enjoy the scenery until the train stops and the doors open'.

It might not have been your intention at all, but I think you might have managed to get across a 'don't bother trying' message to your players.

[Deophaun]

Then you thwarted everything they tried to alter said course of action (aka escape). As a player, I'd probably interpret that as 'you might as well sit down and enjoy the scenery until the train stops and the doors open'.
Meh, I'm starting to side with the OP. The players' escape attempts demonstrate questionable judgement. (Slipping the bonds while the BBEG is in the room, staying put in a single spot for a whole week in enemy territory, etc)

That and they didn't bother to try the obvious means of countering a summoning spell.

But even if the blame shifts, the problem is still the same: The players are not the ones who are going to come up with the solution. The DM must present a solution. The trick is in doing it in such a way that the players' have a feeling of agency in the matter (bonus points if you trick them into thinking it was their idea).

[Vaz]

You have a monk attempting to escape while being observed and a Wizard placing himself in his own AMF.

Your players are idiots.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Tell the PCs that the DMPC has become so powerful he has subverted the universal order and now controls everything

They only hope is to realize the players true power and to reach across the void into the forms which they are avatars of and punch the fat piggy power tripping DMPC in the reproductive parts and have one of the players assume the mantle of "Dm" or "He who rules above all"

He can then remake the universe as it was before entering the DMPCs magical realm of pissy trees and reveal that the entire endeavor were all illusions and the Avatars forms were only tricked into thinking it was an unwinnable scenerio

[Brookshw]

Definitely with the OP as well, doubly so in that he opens the thread saying pretty much "okay gang, I screwed up, can you help fix it". He owned it, time to move on. If someone wants to start a separate thread on what restrictions a DM should have in designing settings /campaign premise / villians & their abilities, that would be interesting but let's do it constructively rather than ripping on this guy.

@OP: are your players actively trying to escape still or have they thrown in the towel? I have a few thoughts in mind but a better sense of the players current mindset will help to find applications devoid of "solution railroading"

[John Longarrow]

samuraijaques

What have your players done to find a way out for their characters? Have they talked to you about it? Have you suggested places for them to get help?

Often I've found that if the players are either happy with the status quo, or if they don't think the DM is open to them doing something different, they won't try. Likewise if they can't figure it out for themselves and they don't look for help, its really hard to change how things are going.

[dascarletm]

OP: Disregard the hate earlier in the thread. I used to make mistakes in my campaigns all the time. Since my early days of DMing I've learned some things that has alleviated me making these errors.

First, options on what you should do now, dependent on how the players morale is:

1. Retcon the bad parts (possibly say one of their tricks worked). I think the pros and cons are obvious. This is sometimes the best option, and if you only do this in the most dire of circumstances, everyone should be fine with it. (I once had a friend come in to play an NPC while he was in town so he could join us for a session. His actions ended up being out of character and got him killed. The NPC was well liked, and everyone was upset to see him go out like that. We retcon'd what he did in that session.)

2. Get them out of there in the next session. Let them take out the BBEG, and have them find out he was just a pawn in a larger plot. Then give them a side plot adventure that is geared on fun. Give em some wins.

Second, some things to avoid in the future. Don't make it so that there is only one possible outcome of a scenario. No matter how outmatched, after a certain level, the characters should have "get out of jail cards." If the plot is dependent of some guy fighting the heroes, then escaping, don't give him an ability to teleport that can't be blocked by anything. If the players dimensional lock him have a plan for that, and not a "it works anyway" or something similar. (not saying you do this, just making up an example). In the above scenario, if the players do manage to stop the guy from escaping have a backup timeline of events that could lead to the same outcome in your plot.

Good luck, I hope my thoughts were helpful.:smallbiggrin:

[samuraijaques]

@lordblades
Crap, I was worried that might have happened

@deophaun
Can you think of a way to present one of the aforementioned solutions without it seeming totally obvious?

@vaz
Yeah...... a little bit

@trolcapamerica
Lol. Yeah, I'll definitely be doing that.

@brookshw
Thanks for the words of support. It has only been 2 sessions so far of them in the BBEG's clutches. I feel like they have given up but it's really too early to say definitively. Lets just assume they have given up and move from there.

@john longarrow
Lets see, the wizard has tried teleporting away. Once while he was being summoned which meant that when the spell ended he just popped back, and twice now he has used gemjump to teleport away while in his bindings. One time when he gemjumped he popped up an AMF and sat in it for days, the other time the BBEG just followed him and subdued him. The monk has slipped his bindings twice but both times while the BBEG was in the room and he just wall of stoned him. The druid hasn't really tried anything.

They have not asked for advice and I have not given them any. I really hope they aren't stuck in the mindset of not trying anything.

@dascarletm
1. I would like to avoid retconing of at all possible
2. He is definitely no pawn. Unless we are talking like devil lords, which they are totally not about to beat. But ending his life is really tempting.

There are definitely at least 10 different ways that they could get out of this. But I understand what you mean. What I saw as making them try harder they saw as me saying "nothing you do will ever work"

Thanks for the positive responses guys. Looking forward to hearing more from you

[WebTiefling]

I think part of the issue here is that he put the players in a situation that is way harder than he thought. From what has been described, that BBEG is at least ECL 20, probably higher. I realize samurai says the guy is only a level 15 person, but his actual power sounds far closer to level 18-20 with a bunch of prepared traps and special abilities to crank the ECL up to 20+.

Newb mistake. It happens. I had a DM dump five vampires on our party of 4 level 3 characters. He didn't want to TPK, so he awkwardly scrambled to keep us alive.

We forgave him. It happens. Admit that you made the situation way too hard, and let them get out of it somehow. With some planning, you can keep it from being too lame.

I also suspect that there have been more escape attempts that samuraijack hasn't mentioned. Players so clueless that they can't figure out "We have Teleport, so we'll just T-port away" is hard to believe.

If they have teleported away, but the DM has merely yanked them back through uber-cool-BBEG-Teleport-redirection-powers without giving a chance, then DM is a douche.

Either way, there are issues here, as has been mentioned over and over in this thread.

If pride doesn't want to specifically tell your players, "Try X, Y, and Z," which is an admission and apology of I-screwed-up-so-let's-move-past-my-mistake, then I think the choices are

1) introduce a sudden shake-up such as any of the suggestions mentioned previously where a 3rd party starts changing things

or

2) allow their next escape attempt to succeed no matter what. The monk decides to "Punch the BBEG as soon as I can", then roll with it.

Either way, smooth it over with some good and plausible reasons.

They get sent out on their next penance session?

Well their opponent offers to help them escape if they'll join him!

The monk punches the BBEG?

Well guess what! The BBEG had a contingent spell triggered which yanked him away. Go! You've got four rounds to get the others loose and ready for a fight!

The players are either so phenomenally incompetent that they must have trouble tying their characters' shoes, or the DM has set up a challenge that is WAY beyond their level and needs to give a LOT of leeway to allow them to escape.

[WebTiefling]

Whoops. Crossed posts. Some of the stuff in my comment was mentioned. I won't bother trying to edit it all.

[Killer Angel]

@killer angel
By "help my players beat the BBEG" I meant "help me help my players beat the BBEG"


good to know.:smallwink:


I really hope they aren't stuck in the mindset of not trying anything.

In regard to this, I'm going to answer to LordBlades, and I hope that this can be of some help to you.


First, you homebrewed certain abilities in your BBEG that were not achievable by him within the rules (Divert Teleport as a spell and the ability to summon the players). For me, as a player, this would be a sign of 'the DM really wants this course of action to come to pass' (aka railroading).

Then you thwarted everything they tried to alter said course of action (aka escape). As a player, I'd probably interpret that as 'you might as well sit down and enjoy the scenery until the train stops and the doors open'.

It might not have been your intention at all, but I think you might have managed to get across a 'don't bother trying' message to your players.

Then, all the OP has to do, is a simple speech, to give hope again to the players, something ala:
"guys, of course the BBEG got something homebrewed: it's the friggin' BBEG, and it will be equipped with something unique. it's not unbeatable, but it's like, I don't know, to face someone with the Hand of Vecna in an epic level adventure: the BBEG is special. You also are special, you've got abilities that the enemy can't dream of, but you must use them wisely. To try to escape while being observed, isn't the top. Neither is not taking sufficient precautions to not be magically observed. Try to think smart, I'm not here to screw you".

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Keep it civil in here please.

[Tim Proctor]

@tim proctor
I really wanted to make a character that was unique and presented a different kind of challenge to the players. If you can think of another way to do that using RAW I would love that.
Here is one my NPC BBEGs (Gustavo Fring), I keep his level 2 above the party's gave him a 32 point build, and went with everything WBL, timeline, etc. I hope this helps, he is also a summoner type which helps immensely with the action economy.

Abilities by level, only levels with changes are listed.

{table=head] Level | Str | Dex | Con | Int | Wis | Cha | Notes:
1 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 18 | 10 | 15 |
4 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 18 | 10 | 16 |
7 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 20 | 10 | 16 |
8 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 22 | 10 | 17 |
9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 22 | 10 | 19 |
10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 22 | 10 | 21 |
11 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 24 | 10 | 21 |
12 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 24 | 10 | 20 |
13 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 24 | 10 | 22 |
16 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 26 | 10 | 23 |
18 | 10 | 10 | 15 | 31 | 12 | 32 |
19 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 31 | 15 | 32 |
20 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 32 | 16 | 34 | [/table]

Level progressions
{table=head]Level | Class | HD | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Skills | Feats | Special | Spells Per Day | Items: | Notes:
1 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 1 | d4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | Concentration 4, Decipher Script 4, Knowledge (Arcane) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4, Profession (innkeeper) 4, Spellcraft 4 | Spell Focus (conjuration), Improved Initiative (combat wizard), | Extended Enchantment | 3 2 | | The timeline scale is that it takes a month per level value (2 months to advance to 2, and 5 months to advance to level 5), this concept will be important at later levels. Don't spend a dime on anything besides a spell component pouch, you're summoning Celestial badgers and they don't give a ****. Yes you're CG because your goal is to bring order to the criminal underworld and stop needless violence. You are bringing good in a chaotic manner (don't forget Acid and Daze).
2 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 2 | d4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | Concentration 5, Decipher Script 5, Knowledge (Arcane) 5, Knowledge (Religion) 5, Profession (innkeeper) 5, Spellcraft 5 | | | 4 3 | 900 gp |
3 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 3 | d4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | Concentration 6, Decipher Script 6, Knowledge (Arcane) 6, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Profession (innkeeper) 6, Spellcraft 6 | Iron Will | | 4 3 2 | 2,700 gp | You get Celestial eagles, and while they aren't badgers they are really cool.
4 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 4 | d4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7 | Concentration 7, Decipher Script 7, Knowledge (Arcane) 7, Knowledge (Religion) 7, Profession (innkeeper) 7, Spellcraft 7 | | +1 Cha | 4 4 3 | 5,400 gp |
5 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 5 | d4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7 | Concentration 8, Decipher Script 8, Knowledge (Arcane) 8, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Profession (innkeeper) 8, Spellcraft 8 | Arcane Disciple (Summoner) | Social Proficiency (Intimidate) | 4 4 3 2 | 9,000 gp | Celestial hippogriffs
6 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 6 | d4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 8 | Concentration 9, Decipher Script 9, Knowledge (Arcane) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 9, Profession (innkeeper) 9, Spellcraft 9 | Leadership | Cohort | 4 4 4 3 | 13,000 gp | It is at this point that Gus decides to get into the 'tavern business'. He buys a business for 13,000 all his money (give or take a spell pouch (we can assume he worked a little in order to get the difference) he buys a Tavern business called Los Polos Hermanos. See the business table below. He also gains 2 cohorts Mike Ehrmantraut and Walter White, see Leaderhip Table below.
7 | Legendary Leader 1 | d8 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 11 | Concentration 10, Decipher Script 10, Diplomacy 10, Gather Information 10, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (Arcane) 10, Knowledge (Religion) 10, Profession (innkeeper) 10, Spellcraft 10 | | Fearless, hero’s luck +1, natural commander, legendary reputation | 4 5 5 3 | 19,000 gp | Gus spends 4k on a Headband of intellect +2. Keeping 2k left.
8 | Legendary Leader 2 | d8 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 12 | Concentration 11, Decipher Script 11, Diplomacy 11, Gather Information 11, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (Arcane) 11, Knowledge (Religion) 11, Profession (innkeeper) 11, Spellcraft 11 | | Greater command 1/day, quick rally, '+1 Cha | 4 5 5 3 | 27,000 gp | Gus spends 8k on a Scarlet and Blue Ioun Stone.
9 | Legendary Leader 3 | d8 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 13 | Concentration 12, Decipher Script 12, Diplomacy 12, Gather Information 12, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (Arcane) 12, Knowledge (Religion) 12, Profession (innkeeper) 12, Spellcraft 12 | Improved Cohort, Heretic of the Faith | hero’s luck +2 | 4 5 5 3 | 36,000 gp | This is when Gus starts to break bad, no longer content can he watch his employees be assaulted by Don Eladio the tavern tycoon, he starts to fight on his own terms. Gus spend 4k on a Cloak of Charisma +2 and 6.6k on Shrouds of Disintegration (he has to detroy a body his alignment shifts to CN) which spends the 2k he had saved up.
10 | Legendary Leader 4 | d8 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 14 | Concentration 13, Decipher Script 13, Diplomacy 13, Gather Information 13, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (Arcane) 13, Knowledge (Religion) 13, Profession (innkeeper) 13, Spellcraft 13 | | Greater command 2/day, heroic success | 4 5 5 3 | 49,000 gp | Gus spends 8k on a Pink and Green Ioun Stone. Saving 5k for later.
11 | Legendary Leader 5 | d8 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 14 | Concentration 14, Decipher Script 14, Diplomacy 14, Gather Information 14, Intimidate 14, Knowledge (Arcane) 14, Knowledge (Religion) 14, Profession (innkeeper) 14, Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 14 | | Additional commander aura, hero’s luck +3, to hell and back | 4 5 5 4 | 66,000 gp | Gus sells his +2 Headband for 2k and spends 16k purchasing a +4 headband. He now has 6k saved up
12 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 7 | d4 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 14 | Concentration 15, Decipher Script 14, Diplomacy 15, Gather Information 14, Intimidate 15, Knowledge (Arcane) 14, Knowledge (Religion) 15, Profession (innkeeper) 15, Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 15 | Extra Followers | +1 Cha | 4 6 5 4 2 | 88,000 gp | Gus can summon Air Mephits. Gus spends 25k on Bracers of Armor +5. He has 3k remaining.
13 | Thaumaturgist 1 | d4 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 16 | Concentration 16, Decipher Script 14, Diplomacy 16, Gather Information 14, Intimidate 16, Knowledge (Arcane) 14, Knowledge (Religion) 16, Profession (innkeeper) 16, Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 16 | | Improved ally | 4 6 5 5 3 | 110,000 gp | Gus sells his +2 Cloak for 2k and spends 16k purchasing a +4 Cloak. He now has 11k saved up.
14 | Thaumaturgist 2 | d4 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 17 | Concentration 17, Decipher Script 14, Diplomacy 17, Gather Information 14, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (Arcane) 14, Knowledge (Religion) 17, Profession (innkeeper) 17, Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 17 | | Augment Summoning | 4 6 6 5 3 2 | 150,000 gp | Gus can summon Earth Elemental, Medium (earth glide is really good), and cast Lesser Planar Binding (binding is very important in ensuring he has some fairly good minions that can stomp all over the place), he will start to bind 2 Air Mephits per day with the condition to protect him, his business, his cohorts and followers (once they do they leave) this adds up very quickly. Gus spends 40k on a Ring of Wizardry III, leaving 11k still remaining.
15 | Thaumaturgist 3 | d4 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 17 | Concentration 18, Decipher Script 14, Diplomacy 18, Gather Information 14, Intimidate 18, Knowledge (Arcane) 14, Knowledge (Religion) 18, Profession (innkeeper) 18, Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 18 | Rulership | Extended summoning | 4 6 6 5 4 3 | 200,000 gp | Gus now has rulership and is the 'tavern' king killing Don Eladio (his alignment becomes CE). He spends 60k on a Rod of Rulership, leaving him with 1k remaining.
16 | Thaumaturgist 4 | d4 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 18 | Concentration 19, Decipher Script 19, Diplomacy 19, Gather Information 19, Intimidate 19, Knowledge (Arcane) 19, Knowledge (Religion) 19, Knowledge (Nobility) 5, Profession (innkeeper) 19, Sense Motive 19, Spellcraft 19 | | Contingent conjuration, '+1 Cha | 4 6 6 6 5 3 2 | 260,000 gp | Gus can summon Large Earth Elementals, and cast Planar Binding (he will bind one with the sole purpose of filling his castle with them, since they can move through the walls and swarm adventurers). Gus spends 55k on a Tome of Clear Thought +2, leaving 6k in remainder.
17 | Thaumaturgist 5 | d4 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 18 | Concentration 20, Decipher Script 19, Diplomacy 20, Gather Information 20, Intimidate 20, Knowledge (Arcane) 19, Knowledge (Religion) 20, Knowledge (Nobility) 5, Profession (innkeeper) 20, Sense Motive 19, Spellcraft 19 | | Planar cohort | 4 6 6 6 5 4 3 | 340,000 gp | Gus spends 75k on a Black Robe of the Archmagi, leaving 11k in remainder. He gains a Planar Cohort called Jesse Pinkman.
18 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 8 | d4 | 9 | 7 | 7 | 19 | Bluff 21, Concentration 21, Decipher Script 21, Diplomacy 21, Gather Information 21, Intimidate 21, Knowledge (Arcane) 21, Knowledge (Local) 21, Knowledge (Nobility) 21, Knowledge (Planes) 18, Knowledge (Religion) 21, Profession (innkeeper) 21, Sense Motive 21, Spellcraft 21 | Imbued Summoning | | 4 7 7 6 6 4 4 2 | 440,000 gp | Gus can summon Djinn and planar bind them, he does, this gives him access to the 3 wishes every 100 days. The other 99 Djinn fill up his castle. Gus spends 82.5k on a Tome of Leadership and Influence +3 and 27.5k on a +1 Tome. With 19 months until the next level and the averages of capturing a noble Djinn he will get 17 wishes he will gain +5 to Con, Int, and Cha, and 2 to Wis.
19 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 9 | d4 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 19 | Bluff 21, Concentration 22, Decipher Script 21, Diplomacy 22, Gather Information 21, Intimidate 22, Knowledge (Arcane) 22, Knowledge (Local) 21, Knowledge (Nobility) 21, Knowledge (Planes) 19, Knowledge (Religion) 22, Profession (innkeeper) 21, Sense Motive 21, Spellcraft 22 | | | 4 7 7 6 6 5 4 3 | 580,000 gp | Gus will continue with farm Djinn for wishes and will have an average of 18 wishes, he will gain +5 Str, Dex, +3 to Wis, and save the other 5 wishes from times when needed. Gus will spend 100k on a Ring of Wizardry IV, and keep the 40k in remainder.
20 | Wizard Enchanter Variant 10 | d4 | 10 | 8 | 8 | 20 | Bluff 23, Concentration 23, Decipher Script 23, Diplomacy 23, Gather Information 23, Intimidate 23, Knowledge (Arcane) 23, Knowledge (History) 21, Knowledge (Local) 23, Knowledge (Nobility) 23, Knowledge (Planes) 23, Knowledge (Religion) 23, Profession (innkeeper) 23, Sense Motive 23, Spellcraft 23 | Rapid Spell | Social Proficiency (Diplomacy), '+1 Cha | 4 7 7 7 6 5 4 4 | 760,000 gp | Gus will continue with farm Djinn for wishes and stock piling his castle, he will spent 137.5k on manuals and tomes (1 of each) and 80k on a Crystal Ball with true seeing. [/table]

Business Wealth by Level. I should note that I don't have him spend this money on items and such, but on hirelings like bounty hunters, assassins, etc. to do his dirty work.
{table=head]Level | # Months | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | Profit | Costs | Net | Notes:
6 | 7.0 | 35.0 | 37.5 | 40.0 | | | | | | 12875.00 | 3350.00 | 9525.00 | This is broken down into a quarterly because that is how often the business can be upgraded. Any changes via character information will be addressed in the notes section. Each quarter he upgrades the business costing 800g and adds 2.5 permenently to the profit modifier. Gus always takes a 10, have 5 specialists +10 bonus that cost 250g each month total, is a guild member +1, has 2 cohorts acting as bosses +4, high risk business -4, 9 skill points, total 35 this level.
7 | 8.0 | | | 41.0 | 43.5 | 46.0 | | | | 17525.00 | 3600.00 | 13925.00 | 2 months of the 3rd quarter are in lvl 7, 1 month is in lvl 6. Gus's skill will continue to climb 1 per level. Profit check mod total 36 this level (not counting upgrades). Normally Gus would open up another business everytime he reached 13k in net and spend 8 hours a week at each business until he reached 5, then he would just take the -4 for not being there. This compounds really easily and in the appropriate setting ends up being where he is making millions a month around level 15. For simplicity sake only this one is listed.
8 | 9.0 | | | | | | 49.5 | 52.0 | 55.5 | 23550.00 | 4650.00 | 18900.00 | Profit check mod total 37 this level (not counting upgrades).
9 | 10.0 | 59.0 | 61.5 | 64.0 | 66.5 | | | | | 31000.00 | 5700.00 | 25300.00 | 1 month of the 4th quart is in lvl 9, 2 months in lvl 10. Profit check mod total 38 this level (not counting upgrades).
10 | 11.0 | | | | 67.5 | 70.0 | 72.5 | 75.0 | | 39375.00 | 5150.00 | 34225.00 | Profit check mod total 39 this level (not counting upgrades).
11 | 12.0 | 81.0 | 83.5 | 86.0 | | | | | 78.5 | 41500.00 | 6200.00 | 35300.00 | The cycle ends in the 2nd 4th quarter and restarts in the 1st of lvl 11. Profit check mod total 40 this level (not counting upgrades).
12 | 13.0 | | | | 89.5 | 92.0 | 94.5 | 97.0 | 99.5 | 60925.00 | 6450.00 | 54475.00 | 1 month of the 4th quart is in lvl 12, 2 months in lvl 13. Profit check mod total 41 this level (not counting upgrades).
13 | 14.0 | 103.0 | 105.5 | 108.0 | 110.5 | | | | 100.5 | 69075.00 | 6700.00 | 62375.00 | Profit check mod total 42 this level (not counting upgrades).
14 | 15.0 | 123.0 | | | | 113.0 | 115.5 | 118.0 | 120.5 | 88500.00 | 7750.00 | 80750.00 | Profit check mod total 43 this level (not counting upgrades).
15 | 16.0 | | 125.5 | 128.0 | 131.5 | 134.0 | 136.5 | 139.0 | | 105275.00 | 8800.00 | 96475.00 | 1 month of the 3rd quarter is in lvl 15, 2 months in lvl 16. Profit check mod total 44 this level (not counting upgrades).
16 | 17.0 | 145.0 | 147.5 | 150.0 | 152.5 | | | 140.0 | 142.5 | 124625.00 | 8250.00 | 116375.00 | Profit check mod total 45 this level (not counting upgrades).
17 | 18.0 | 166.0 | 168.5 | | | 156.0 | 158.5 | 161.0 | 163.5 | 146025.00 | 9300.00 | 136725.00 | Profit check mod total 46 this level (not counting upgrades).
18 | 19.0 | 187.0 | | 172.0 | 174.5 | 177.0 | 179.5 | 182.0 | 184.5 | 169775.00 | 11150.00 | 158625.00 | 1 month of the 1st quart is in lvl 18, 2 months in lvl 19. Profit check mod total 47 this level (not counting upgrades).
19 | 20.0 | 200.5 | 203.0 | 205.5 | 208.0 | 210.5 | 213.0 | 215.5 | | 208375.00 | 10200.00 | 198175.00 | Profit check mod total 48 this level (not counting upgrades). [/table]

Leadership, Cohorts, Followers, and Minions by level:
{table=head]Level | Score | Followers | Cohort Levels | Summoned Minions | Notes:
6 | 13.0 | 10 1 | 4 4 | | The tavern counts as a base of operations, +2, he's CG so he's fair +1, and special power via Enchanter +1.
7 | 16.0 | 25 2 1 | 5 5 | | Legendary reputation fulfills 'great renown' +2
8 | 17.0 | 30 3 1 1 | 6 6 | |
9 | 18.0 | 35 3 1 1 | 8 7 | | Gus looses a follower (killed by Don Eladio) -1
10 | 19.0 | 40 4 2 1 1 | 9 8 | |
11 | 21.0 | 60 6 3 2 1 1 | 10 9 | |
12 | 22.0 | 150 14 8 4 4 2 | 11 10 | | Extra Followers
13 | 24.0 | 220 22 12 6 4 2 | 12 11 | |
14 | 25.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 13 12 | * | Summoned minions are months x days x spells slots / 50, they are Air Mephits at this level and there is an assumption that 50% of the complete the terms of their service. This is an incomplete year, depending on the month determines how many Gus has.
15 | 30.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 14 13 | 450 | Rulership, 3 bindings per day
16 | 31.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 15 14 | 1170 | Gus is binding 3 lesser and 1 large earth elemental
17 | 32.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 16 15 | 1935 / 255 | 4 lesser bindings per day 1 regular
18 | 37.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 17 16 | 3015 / 510 | 4 lesser bindings per day 2 regular, these are Djinn 1% are noble
19 | 38.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 18 17 | 4095 / 510 / 558 |
20 | 40.0 | 270 26 14 8 4 4 | 19 18 | 5235 / 510 / 1152 | [/table]

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

1. captured the party wizard by using divert teleport and a cage in an anti-magic field
2. captured the monk and the druid with the strategic use of bands of steel and illusions.

Alright. Capturing PCs is a standard. We're still cool here, so long as this hasn't been permanent.


3. sent the whole party to their deaths 3 times (when they die they just pop back up in his base in restraints)

Here's where it gets a bit nasty. I actually like the "using the PCs as summoned monsters" thing, but having them die and reappear multiple times is going to stretch the good will of the average player. After all, what they do doesn't seem to matter any more.


4. tracked down the wizard after he escaped twice, in one case he sent trained assassins after him to subdue him non-magically and in one instance appeared himself and summoned demons to take him down.
5. popped up wall of stone around the monk after he slipped his chains using Ex freedom of movement from vow of poverty, twice.

What was the rationale for chasing down the players who successfully escaped? Given the prior point (dying multiple times to accomplish basically nothing), I'd say a PC who escapes should be able to leverage that to either create a distraction, get away completely, seek help, etc. Did you just feel that it would be to easy?

Either way, I feel this is the real discouraging point for your players: they've ALREADY escaped. Four times. And they weren't allowed to get anywhere.

So...some comments, and then some questions.

Comments
If I were a player of yours, I'd be feeling very annoyed right now, mainly because it appears that the past several sessions were, ultimately, utterly pointless. My party has accomplished effectively nothing despite several apparently successful escape attempts that weren't allowed to go anywhere. I'd need to see some definitely progress in the next session, or I'd consider dropping the game (well, I'd talk to the DM directly first, but still).

Questions
1: What is the BBEG's end goal? Why not just dispose of his foes? What does he gain by this?
2: What escape plans can YOU think of that would work? Have you hinted at them to the PCs? I'd love to see what your idea of the resolution is.
3: What's your solution if the players threaten to walk? What's your solution if they don't meet one of your escape clauses?

I don't think you're in an unsolvable position. It's not a GOOD position, certainly, but it's salvageable. We can help. :smallbiggrin:

[WebTiefling]

You also are special, you've got abilities that the enemy can't dream of, ....

No, they've got the powers of a (11th? to 13th?) level PCs separated from any outside resources. Compared to someone tossing around stuff that is within spitting distance of Epic level total capabilities, they aren't special and the enemy has a VERY solid grasp of their abilities.

IRL, they would be screwed almost no matter what. In game, though, if they want to escape they'll get a surprise bunch of help from ... somewhere. There are lots of suggestions here for what that help might be. It's up to the DM to make the help seem natural and obvious.

One of my Rogue characters pissed off a demon Prince and got pulled to the Abyss once as a level 10-ish, and managed to escape. How? The Prince's latest bride came to watch them do a bit of softening-up torture on me and thought my character would be useful. (he was a lesser Tiefling) She knows she's only a bride until the next one comes along in a few weeks, so she and I ran for it. (and she double-crossed me eventually and and and)

My character was hosed. I didn't even try to pick the lock on my door because blah blah blah - I (the player) assumed that anything I tried was going to fail. Had I tried, I now guess that the DM would have helped out a bit since he was the one who put me there, but after I sat in the cell for a day doing nothing, I suspect he realized he would need to help me, so he had the succubus dangle a great big flashing neon sign in front of me - "ESCAPE THIS WAY!"

Sometimes, the player really is hosed and needs DM help. There are a million ways to do it.

[samuraijaques]

@webtiefling
Yeah, most of what you talked about has been covered. Thank you though.

@killer angel
I tried to give that speech last time but my players weren't having it. I think they were just tired and annoyed. I'll try again when they come over tonight.

@roland st. jude
Sorry mate. Got a little worked up there. There was a lot of flaming going on.

@tim proctor
Thank you, but not exactly what I mean. I was trying to find a way to continue doing what the BBEG is doing with RAW. My players would bend that character over and make him cry for his mommy. Although he is a really awesome character. I love the story line you have for him. All by level too which is a really cool idea.

[Tim Proctor]

@tim proctor
Thank you, but not exactly what I mean. I was trying to find a way to continue doing what the BBEG is doing with RAW. My players would bend that character over and make him cry for his mommy. Although he is a really awesome character. I love the story line you have for him. All by level too which is a really cool idea.

Post your sheet on the BBEG and I'm sure some people would help.

Also there is no way they'd bend him over at that point, they'd just end up fighting a bunch of CR 13 bounty hunters trying to get to him. Because he's higher level he can hire hirelings of lesser level for their level squared (the x10 only comes in when they are higher level) so 160g a day, so he'd probably pay 4 of them for 10 days to go wipe out the party. If he really wanted them dead he's hire a lvl 20 Wizard at 4,000gp a day for 3 days to TPK. The bottom line is that he like his namesake is a strategist and wouldn't do the killing himself, most likely summon some creatures and leave to gather his forces if confronted.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*snip*

I see you caught everyone around me. You might have missed my post (it's okay...it happens :smalltongue:), so I'll reiterate the questions I had:

Questions
1: What is the BBEG's end goal? Why not just dispose of his foes? What does he gain by this?
2: What escape plans can YOU think of that would work? Have you hinted at them to the PCs? I'd love to see what your idea of the resolution is.
3: What's your solution if the players threaten to walk? What's your solution if they don't meet one of your escape clauses?

That'll give me a really good basis for suggesting anything that I think might help.

[Deophaun]

@deophaun
Can you think of a way to present one of the aforementioned solutions without it seeming totally obvious?

The important point was the feeling of agency. The players must believe that they are accomplishing something, that their actions matter. This is why I recommended a disgruntled imp to get them out of their situation: An imp is a weak creature that can't do anything on its own. It wouldn't even be much of a challenge for a single party member to squash, let alone the BBEG. It needs help, and it lacks the power to extort it from the PCs. It's the perfect quest giver for the situation, as all it can really provide is information. And if the players figure out a use for the imp beyond that (not too hard, given an imp's skillset), let them boss the imp around. Give them the illusion of control.

Are you going to get the party to think dealing with the imp was their idea? Doubtful, as, ironically, tricking players that way requires a pretty sharp group, and by description yours hasn't seen a whetstone in a good while. Don't worry about that.

[Killer Angel]

No, they've got the powers of a (11th? to 13th?) level PCs separated from any outside resources. Compared to someone tossing around stuff that is within spitting distance of Epic level total capabilities, they aren't special and the enemy has a VERY solid grasp of their abilities..

We're trying to give an encouraging speech, here. Don't fix too much on such details. :smalltongue:


@killer angel
I tried to give that speech last time but my players weren't having it. I think they were just tired and annoyed. I'll try again when they come over tonight.


Don't give up!

[samuraijaques]

@tim proctor
Okay, i see what you are saying. That is a completely different BBEG though. A totally different character that doesn't do any of the things my BBEG does.

@djinn_in_tonic
Yeah I think we might have posted at the same time. I didn't see yours when I posted mine. Sorry

1. The BBEG is taking on the role of a jailor or a torturer. He wants the players to pay for their crimes. He wont kill them because that wouldn't be a sufficient punishment for the stuff they have done and because he doesn't kill people. If someone serves enough time for their actions he lets them go. Simple as that.
2. To quote myself

Okay here is the list of possible ways of beating him that I can think of
- enlisting the help of any of their powerful friends while out on a mission through the use of a spell or ability like sending
- using the wizard's imp companion to get a message to someone or to physically enter the facility and attempt to break them out
- convince some of the demons that the BBEG has pissed off to turn on him
- teleport twice to throw off the BBEG's use of anticipate teleport, or teleport and then pop up an antimagic field to prevent the BBEG from scrying and determining his location. protection from scrying would also work here
- returning to the location of the tower after being sent out and leveling the place. It's well fortified but it's just a tower
- attempt to bargain with the BBEG and convince him to let them go. ( would require high diplomacy)
- sneak out in the night when the BBEG isn't around and find the source of his power (a large contract he has signed with devils)
- relentlessly try and escape. just brute force it. the monk would be the best at this. The BBEG doesn't want to kill them, and the monk doesn't need to breathe, eat or sleep and could attempt to escape all day every day forever. He would be bound to do it eventually.
- bargain with the enemies they are being sent to kill
EDIT - they could ask one of their gods for a favor, two of them are in pretty good with their respective god

And no I have not given the players any hints yet. I was letting them try their own stuff before I started helping
3. It will never get to the point where my players threaten to walk. They will either win or we will just play a new campaign. If they can't escape in one of the ways that I thought they could and they can't escape by any of their own means then we will talk about retconing the whole thing or just starting a new campaign.

thanks for the help.

@deophaun
You continue to be extremely helpful. Thanks mate.

@killer angel
Inspiring as always.

Thanks for the continued replies.

[John Longarrow]

Hmm...
Imp may want to sell something to the party in return for their promise to destroy the object binding it. Mainly tell them how the LAST party managed to get away, the one the BBEG is trying to find so he can send the NEW party out after them.

Imp can also leave a false trail for BBEG that leads him to send NEW party to where he thinks LAST party is, namely a dimensional portal that will get the PCs away from him.

[ahenobarbi]

From what I can see the problem is that players feel they have nothing to do. And it's not surprising after their characters were captured, prevented from escaping a few times, repeatedly killed and all of that with powers that can not be explained by rules (because you made them up). Personally I'd seriously consider quiting if this happened to my character (depending on my history with DM in question I might talk about it first).

Now solution I suggest is talking to players. Tell them that they can escape but they need to be smart about it. Be careful to not insult your players. Maybe point out that the "monk" almost escaped... only if he(?) slipped out of chains when the BBEG wasn't watching. It probably still can. Breaking wall of stone isn't that hard.

EDIT:

1. The BBEG is taking on the role of a jailor or a torturer. He wants the players to pay for their crimes. He wont kill them because that wouldn't be a sufficient punishment for the stuff they have done and because he doesn't kill people. If someone serves enough time for their actions he lets them go. Simple as that.

You can tell that to your players (if encouraging does not work). "So guys, you don't want to try? Well, fast-forward <some time of repeatedly dying> you get released because you had your penance, add <lots of XP for repeatedly loosing over CRed encounters>. What d' you do?"