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Somensjev
2013-09-17, 03:03 AM
i'm trying to make a tier 1 (or maybe 2) fully mundane class, so far i'm thinking about giving them a bonus feat every level (only just better than a fighter)

each time they acquire a new feat they choose two feats they meet the prerequisites for, then choose which of the two applies to them

each morning they spend (random number of time) preparing their feats (just like a wizard prepares spells)

so if it's a level 20 human (this class (haven't thought of a name yet)) they'll have two (human bonus feats (only one applies at a time)) 40 (from class levels(20 can apply at once)) and 14 (normal feats (only 7 apply at a time)

i'm also thinking maneuvers and stances? but dont know what to do with that

any other ideas are welcome, thanks in advanced for any contributions

eggynack
2013-09-17, 03:12 AM
That's tier three. I think it's been vaguely proved at some point that you only hit tier three with effectively infinite feats (effectively basically meaning that you can only get one instance of toughness, for example). If you want this mundane class to be tier one, they've gotta be able to break the game in some manner. Perhaps his sword is so sharp that it can cut through anything, whether it be an enemy's armor, an anti-magic field, or the very fabric of reality. Maybe he has a pile of gadgets that emulate spells, like a mundane artificer. He has some web shooters, and a bucket of grease, and maybe he has a machine that draws so effectively that the images appear to be real. He has to be as powerful as a wizard, in other words, and your feat monger is not that.

Eldan
2013-09-17, 03:31 AM
Feats alone don't take you over level 3. Remember, the definition of even tier 2 means that you break the game over your knees and make it cry for its mother. Feats don't do that.

For tier 1, your character has to be able to, quite simply, do everything in the game.

Think of an ability, there should be some way to get it, or something funcitionally almost identical. So, as long as there's no feats that allow you to call creatures for help, move across thousands of miles in seconds, move to other worlds, call whatever equipment you need out of thin air or turn into any monster you can think of, feats won't take you there.

gooddragon1
2013-09-17, 04:00 AM
I can think of one ability that might get you close: A "perfect" shapechange. As in you gain ALL abilities of the form as long as it's not a specific individual. With the Ex, Su, and SLA stuff out there I'd say there has to be something in any given monster manual to deal with a situation.

EDIT: Yep, actually some monsters get to cast too. You'd have everything you need.

Somensjev
2013-09-17, 04:09 AM
That's tier three. I think it's been vaguely proved at some point that you only hit tier three with effectively infinite feats (effectively basically meaning that you can only get one instance of toughness, for example). If you want this mundane class to be tier one, they've gotta be able to break the game in some manner. Perhaps his sword is so sharp that it can cut through anything, whether it be an enemy's armor, an anti-magic field, or the very fabric of reality. Maybe he has a pile of gadgets that emulate spells, like a mundane artificer. He has some web shooters, and a bucket of grease, and maybe he has a machine that draws so effectively that the images appear to be real. He has to be as powerful as a wizard, in other words, and your feat monger is not that.

yeah, i realised this, hence why i asked for help
and your sword bit made me think of death from discworld, maybe they could sharpen their weapons with silk, spider webs, and light, make it more and more powerful, or something


Feats alone don't take you over level 3. Remember, the definition of even tier 2 means that you break the game over your knees and make it cry for its mother. Feats don't do that.

For tier 1, your character has to be able to, quite simply, do everything in the game.

Think of an ability, there should be some way to get it, or something funcitionally almost identical. So, as long as there's no feats that allow you to call creatures for help, move across thousands of miles in seconds, move to other worlds, call whatever equipment you need out of thin air or turn into any monster you can think of, feats won't take you there.

well, i am open to homebrew suggestions, like extraordinary abilities that might be awesome or something, i dunno


I can think of one ability that might get you close: A "perfect" shapechange. As in you gain ALL abilities of the form as long as it's not a specific individual. With the Ex, Su, and SLA stuff out there I'd say there has to be something in any given monster manual to deal with a situation.

EDIT: Yep, actually some monsters get to cast too. You'd have everything you need.

sounds fun, but doesnt exactly sound "mundane"

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-17, 04:49 AM
I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

Somensjev
2013-09-17, 06:51 AM
I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

that's the kind of thing i wanted, but i thought maybe he could rearrange all his feats (he still has to meet all prerequisites) as a full round action, or something

JoshuaZ
2013-09-17, 07:09 AM
The problem is that no matter how much you give them, there are some things which one needs to be able to do in order to be T2 or T1 that are extremely hard to fluff as being mundane. Flying, teleportation, plane shifting, are all examples. Flight can be maybe replaced with jumping really far (sort of Samurai Jack style?). Something like what you want to do would be broken in combat but still wouldn't be able to do many of the things that a genuine T1 can do.

Eldan
2013-09-17, 07:26 AM
I don't think staying "mundane" will ever take you above tier 3. Depending on how you define mundane.

To get to tier 1, make a list of everything that is possible in the game. Then find a way for your class to do all of them.

How do you planeshift mundanely? Fly? Teleport? Summon? Battlefield control? Mind control? Invisibility? Shapechange? Divination?

You need to be able to do all of these.

zlefin
2013-09-17, 08:13 AM
agreed. and things that get you to tier 2 are going to start stretching the definition of "mundane", or involve silly large numbers; let alone tier 1.
Another factor is that people interpret the tier list differently; some emphasize the versatility part, and deemphasize being so good at one thing that you don't get outclassed in it.

also, what do you need this class for? a generic thought exercise? some specific game?
If you have a specific intent, and can define what you consider mundane and not mundane, then people can easily make one up that's rather high powered, though it may not reach tier 1 or 2, but can be very high tier 3 at least.

Yitzi
2013-09-17, 09:07 AM
Fix the fighter, or pick the martial (not just melee; it needs good ranged capability too, enough that it can fight a flying wizard in a straight-out fight and have it be a toss-up) class of your choice.
Fix the rogue, so that it can actually do ridiculous things with its skills.
Design a class that can do things like instant travel (even across planes), counter magic, bypass various barriers, etc. How you'd do that and stay mundane, I have no idea.
Now gestalt them, or at least make a class that can switch between their abilities without a rebuild or paying expenses each time it switches.

The result is probably tier 1.

JoshuaZ
2013-09-17, 09:37 AM
One issue also is what counts as "mundane." Is jumping 10 feet straight up mundane? 20 feet? 100 feet? Is the sort of disguises Sherlock Holmes does in the recent movie versions mundane? Is being so sneaky that you can hide at just the right angles, taking advantage of things like the natural human blind spot mundane? What about resisting magic by sheer force of will and strength of body? What about traveling to a different plane by punching the planar barrier really hard? What about causing earthquakes by punching the ground?

It is possible to fluff some of these things as mundane if you have a broad range of what counts as mundane. The problem is that most people don't see that really as mundane. By mundane they often mean something closer to Die Hard than to Superman.

Zelkon
2013-09-17, 10:25 AM
It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation. However, a mundane will be able to do most else if you accept the fact that no one in our world has gotten past level six.
Give him a good climb, jump, and swim speed, and what ever other speeds you can think up. Allow them to throw their weapon at extraordinary angle and great distances, and allow this attack to take down flying creatures. Allow them to dispel or redirect magic, and allow a huge bonus to all saves. Allow them to take on an aspect of a creature by studying them. Allow them SoD. Allow them to attack a group of enemies at once, earthier through a volley of arrows or by dashing through a group of enemies. Allow them to apply status conditions on a hit. Give them good skills. Allow them to break the action economy. Allow them to craft magic items without meeting spell prerequisites. Now, the only thing you're missing is quick transport, which is story breaking anyway.

JoshuaZ
2013-09-17, 10:29 AM
It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation.

I don't think this makes sense. The major distinction between T1 and T2 is that a T2 needs to generally construct their build around whatever thing the T1 can do with a little preparation. If there's no way for the class to do planar travel, it is at best at the very low end of T2.



However, a mundane will be able to do most else if you accept the fact that no one in our world has gotten past level six.
Give him a good climb, jump, and swim speed, and what ever other speeds you can think up. Allow them to throw their weapon at extraordinary angle and great distances, and allow this attack to take down flying creatures. Allow them to dispel or redirect magic, and allow a huge bonus to all saves. Allow them to take on an aspect of a creature by studying them. Allow them SoD. Allow them to attack a group of enemies at once, earthier through a volley of arrows or by dashing through a group of enemies. Allow them to apply status conditions on a hit. Give them good skills. Allow them to break the action economy. Allow them to craft magic items without meeting spell prerequisites. Now, the only thing you're missing is quick transport, which is story breaking anyway.

How would you fluff crafting magic items without spells as mundane? Some things can be fluffed as mundane more easily than others. In the setting I'm currently DMing a +1 weapon is more often than not just extremely well-crafted, and the Keen enhancement as as well as a few other weapons enhancements also fall into that category. But it is hard to see how one would keep as mundane say a crafting a scrying device or a potion.

Zelkon
2013-09-17, 11:13 AM
I don't think this makes sense. The major distinction between T1 and T2 is that a T2 needs to generally construct their build around whatever thing the T1 can do with a little preparation. If there's no way for the class to do planar travel, it is at best at the very low end of T2. Well, think of a sorcerer who doesn't select teleport or plane shift. Basically, it should be on that level, which is, yes, low tier two. That's the best I can do for straight mundane.
Perhaps, a mundane tier two should be able to hitch a ride for free on all magical effects, from buffs to teleportation.




How would you fluff crafting magic items without spells as mundane? Some things can be fluffed as mundane more easily than others. In the setting I'm currently DMing a +1 weapon is more often than not just extremely well-crafted, and the Keen enhancement as as well as a few other weapons enhancements also fall into that category. But it is hard to see how one would keep as mundane say a crafting a scrying device or a potion.

I was only thinking crafting magic weapons and armor, sorry. Anyway, I was thinking that he would just make weapons so good, that they register to the universe as magical.

Perseus
2013-09-17, 11:44 AM
At level 5+ have the class grant stuff of legends.

Her stomp causes earthquakes.

His sword can cut a tsunami in half.

His jumps transcend physics (crouching tiger).

Her sword can cut so swiftly that it cuts the very fabric of time and space causing rifts (planeshift).

Or you know... Beef up Time of Battle from tier 3 to tier 2.

Draken
2013-09-17, 11:59 AM
Your best bet for a mundane Tier 1 class is probably something along the lines of World of Warcraft RPG's Tinker and the accompanying technology system.

Namely, your character, is actually pretty frail (rogue-ish chassis in my example), but he has access to a game system that enables basically anything to be done. Magic or technology.

If you want a tier 1 character who does these things mundanely himself, then you are hit with a conundrum. Your definition of mundane will need to be under review then, if it enables extraordinaire things, then you can make do with Xefas' Teramach or my Evolutionist, for these purposes. I get the feeling that neither does what you want thematically, however.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-17, 12:22 PM
It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation.
Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the reason. It's hard to get T2 (heck, it's hard to get T3) without flat-out ignoring the laws of physics. But getting from T2 to T1 takes a monumental amount of homebrew effort in order to write enough different abilities.

As for a T2 mundane... well, if you take my Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276481)class, and strip away all the limits I put on the Deeds to prevent T2-level abuses, you're pretty close. High-level abilities let you leap for miles, destroy massive objects, shrug off magic, cut your way through planar boundaries, dispel magic by hitting it with your sword, shoot targets miles away, and so on. You could easily add in anything you felt was missing through new deeds.

Eldan
2013-09-17, 12:24 PM
Well, think of a sorcerer who doesn't select teleport or plane shift. Basically, it should be on that level, which is, yes, low tier two. That's the best I can do for straight mundane.
Perhaps, a mundane tier two should be able to hitch a ride for free on all magical effects, from buffs to teleportation.




What makes the Sorcerer tier 2 is that he could have any of the tricks tier 1 has, but not all of them at once. So, he could take teleportation, or he could not, and the decision is more or less final once made.

If you don't have the option of learning some of tier 1's tricks, you are not tier 2.

jojolagger
2013-09-17, 01:04 PM
I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

This is actually a really, really good example of how to do this. It does start to lag behind a little at the really high levels, but it does generally have meta play similar to a wizard. If you have only core and don't know what you're doing, it can be strong, but it's easy to mess up. If you have access to everything and know what you're doing, you can do pretty much anything you want. Because I'm fairly willing to bet planeshift is available via feat, or something somewhat similar. Flight can easily be done via feats. I know there is a ritual that gives ex shadow based teleportation somewhere, iirc.

Zelkon
2013-09-17, 02:53 PM
What makes the Sorcerer tier 2 is that he could have any of the tricks tier 1 has, but not all of them at once. So, he could take teleportation, or he could not, and the decision is more or less final once made.

If you don't have the option of learning some of tier 1's tricks, you are not tier 2.

Another definition is being able to break the game in various ways, just not as many as a tier one. Which my chasis does. A sorcerer does not drop to tier three because he does not pick teleport, and while not having teleport as an option would be...less than optimal, it would still remain a tier two in the sense that it will outshine every tier three and will consistently break the game.

Zaydos
2013-09-17, 03:10 PM
I'm assuming the level 4 slots get you around prerequisites too (since you're taking Awakened Spell Resistance which normally requires a dragon), which actually means you get teleport 1/day as soon as you gain those if you want it (Fiendish Legacy feat) or if you still need level prerequisites until you get to the epic ones at 9th level.

Though it also seems that you exaggerated your numbers a fair bit (as your examples require 10 to 21 slots of each level).

toapat
2013-09-17, 03:13 PM
Another definition is being able to break the game in various ways, just not as many as a tier one. Which my chasis does. A sorcerer does not drop to tier three because he does not pick teleport, and while not having teleport as an option would be...less than optimal, it would still remain a tier two in the sense that it will outshine every tier three and will consistently break the game.

a Sorcerer can drop all the way to Tier 6, or rise upto Tier 1, depending on their spell choices. To paraphrase Tippy, a Sorcerer can suck harder then a fighter ever could hope to.

basically, this is a moreso standard interpretation:

Tier 1: from mid op upwards the game is able to be made irrelevant to all but the most specialized of scenarios, such as a Tarrasque vs lvl 4 wizard

Tier 2: Mid Op may have something to break the game entirely, and theoretically participate in any challenge

Tier 3: Can participate in multiple challenges, may have one exceptional point

Tier 4: Has one exceptional function, may have a few additional challenges they can participate in additionally

Tier 5: May have one good function, is likely incapable outside of it

Tier 6: is incapable in any function outside of high optimization. Also commoner because we cant really tell how to measure commoner optimization.

Perseus
2013-09-17, 03:16 PM
Read 8 bit theater.... Pay attention to Redmage...

Give a mundane the ability to re-write their character sheet at-will. Maybe as an immediate action then later a free action.

Oh no the wizard cast a save or die will save? Rearrange my stats to dump str, Dex, int, cha... And boost wisdom. Hell while at it give myself mettle and a good will save.

........
.....
...
..
.

Along with other things of course.

Urpriest
2013-09-17, 03:20 PM
I say this in most threads on this topic: a Fighter with a Flaming Sword is still a mundane class. In general, all of the greatest mundane heroes from fiction used magic items heavily. A Tier 1 mundane class already exists: that's what the Artificer is.

Xefas
2013-09-17, 03:28 PM
A tier 1 character can solve any situation, given time to prepare.

And you can do that with only the strength of your arm! You only need a Strength score of about 3.2x10^67 to be able to release enough energy in a punch to create an event similar to the Big Bang, if my math is right. At high levels, with a few feats, you can be doing that a half dozen times per round or more.

And, if you can't use that to solve your problems, you got problems man.

Network
2013-09-17, 05:19 PM
Design a class that can do things like instant travel (even across planes), counter magic, bypass various barriers, etc. How you'd do that and stay mundane, I have no idea.
Now gestalt them, or at least make a class that can switch between their abilities without a rebuild or paying expenses each time it switches.

The result is probably tier 1.
No it isn't. It's a monk.

Jormengand
2013-09-17, 05:24 PM
I had an idea for a class who used special abilities based on which weapons and such he had. For example, he could throw small fireballs with a Fire Poi, make earthquakes with Lucerne Hammers and do a Legolas-style shield surf on a light steel shield. While this is hardly going to make you T1, a similar thing could be done which did something of that order.

Amechra
2013-09-17, 05:51 PM
Planeshifting is actually kinda easy to get a mundane fluff.

You just need to find a portal! Who cares if the portal technically wasn't there before you went searching?

And the power of teleportation is less "it gets you places immediately" and more "you don't have to deal with the stuff between here and your target."

You could simulate that with a string of abilities like, I don't know (I'm going to use feats; put 'em in as class features or whatever)...

Tireless Runner [General]
You could run forever if you felt like it.
Prerequisites: Run
Benefit: You no longer have a limit on how long you can run, and may run through Difficult Terrain without reducing your movement speed.

Then make it so you can lose someone tracking you with ease, be 'lucky' enough to get through traps and locked doors (free action Open Lock and Disable Device checks? Don't mind if I do!)

I'd do it with mounts, though; the idea of hopping onto a horse and getting it to run fast enough that you get wherever you need to be in just the nick of time is great. Instantaneous teleportation kind of removes tension, anyway.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-17, 05:55 PM
A tier 1 character can solve any situation, given time to prepare.
A common misconception not supported by facts. A tier 1 character can solve any situation if a) their player knows that situation exactly, b) the entire resources of the class are put into resolving the situation, and c) the theoretical player gets to cherry-pick the solution out of thousands of options for that class, when that class only has about 50-60 options.


Tell you what. Do the following;

1) Build a wizard using non campaign-specific material.
2) Have him memorize spells.
3) Have him pull off his daily preparations.

After you do that, see how many situations you can think of that he can't deal with, assuming 4-5 encounters paced every 4-5 hours. Do note that the optimization level of the challenges should match the optimization level of the wizard.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-09-17, 06:00 PM
Planeshifting is actually kinda easy to get a mundane fluff.

You just need to find a portal! Who cares if the portal technically wasn't there before you went searching?

And the power of teleportation is less "it gets you places immediately" and more "you don't have to deal with the stuff between here and your target."

This is why I like 4e. There are abilities of the "Dark Wanderer" Epic Destiny from Martial Power that basically let you do this. The one that lets you return from the dead is basically "your spirit walks through the planes for 24 hours, finding portals and routes that lead you back to the spot where you died".

JoshuaZ
2013-09-17, 06:08 PM
I say this in most threads on this topic: a Fighter with a Flaming Sword is still a mundane class. In general, all of the greatest mundane heroes from fiction used magic items heavily. A Tier 1 mundane class already exists: that's what the Artificer is.

Two problems with this. First it is false. Many heroes in fiction who are mundane have at most one or two magical items. Bilbo has Sting and later the Ring. Aragorn has his sword Anduril, which isn't that magical from a D&D standpoint (it doesn't glow, or burn or the like, it could be statted up as a masterwork weapon and we wouldn't see much narrative difference, although it might make sense as something like a +1 keen, vorpal blade, and the movies suggest it might also be ghost touch). Even later, between the two of them, Frodo and Samwise get a single additional item that from a D&D perspective casts a low level, harmless spell on itself but has the advantage of being uncounterable. Conan has a single enchanted sword (although in the original books if I recall he gets another one after the first breaks).

And if one looks at mythology one sees similar results. Odysseus has no magic items (although he does get a kickass bow). Hercules briefly in some stories gets access to magic items but rarely, and from a D&D perspective he's not even a regular hero, but something like someone with divine rank 0. Achilles has no magic items. Thor is a god and he gets two magic items, his hammer and a belt of strength although some myths also give him magic gauntlets and a magic chariot. A level 12 D&D character is expected to have as many or more magic items than a deity in Norse mythology, and he's on the upper end of how many magic items people get in myths, for a total of four items if we count all the major myths together.

Second and more seriously, in almost none of these stories did they craft their weapons on their own. The artificer doesn't just have magic items but can craft them easily at will for both themselves and others. Thor's hammer is crafted by Sindri and Brokkr. Aragorn's sword is made by the elven smiths. No one is making items on the fly and certainly no one is making them for themselves.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-17, 06:17 PM
Achilles has no magic items.

Except, you know, the entire suit of armor crafted by Hephaestus*. And anything made by Hephaestus contains a pretty hefty dose of divine magic. Also don't discount the goddess Athena advising and protecting him directly. That has to count for something as far as "magic" goes.

*source: The Illiad

You're pretty correct about the rest though.

JoshuaZ
2013-09-17, 06:26 PM
Except, you know, the entire suit of armor crafted by Hephaestus*. And anything made by Hephaestus contains a pretty hefty dose of divine magic. Also don't discount the goddess Athena advising and protecting him directly. That has to count for something as far as "magic" goes.

*source: The Illiad


Good points. The armor isn't explicitly magical and doesn't do flashy magical stuff but it should almost be treated as magical.

Edit: Is a complicating factor here that some cultures didn't make as strong a distinction between magic and and non-magic as we would be helpful?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-17, 06:40 PM
Edit: Is a complicating factor here that some cultures didn't make as strong a distinction between magic and and non-magic as we would be helpful?

Definitely. Achilles' armor is probably something like +5 Heavy Fortification, but it just comes off as insanely well-crafted god armor. We also get problems with things like Sun Wukong. He can jump to the ends of the earth and effectively create clones of himself. How much of this is him being innately magical, and how much is just him being that good?

Many cultures don't have as strong a line between magic and mundane as western civilization does, especially cultures that place a strong emphasis on inner powers and/or strength of will/belief. It's hard to fun the distinction in many of these instances.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-17, 06:40 PM
Potential high-level physical abilities;

Boundless Endurance
You never get fatigued or exhausted. In addition, whenever you'd suffer physical harm (damage, damage/penalty/drain/negative effect to a physical trait) you're entitled to a fortitude save to negate the effect, in addition to any other defense or resistance that might apply. The DC is 10+damage rank for damage or 20+effect rank for anything else. A number of times per encounter equal to your constitution modifier you may automatically get the benefits of a natural 20 on a fortitude save or constitution check.

Speed follows Might
You've learned to use your immense strength to move with great speed. Divide your heavy load by your current total weight. Multiply the distance of any physical movement (move, double move, run, jump, 5ft step) by the result, rounded up. I.e. if you have a strength of 40 (lift 6400 lbs) and you weigh 200 lbs, you'd multiply the distance any physical move by 32.

Quicker than the Eye
You can perform single actions at the absolute limits of a humanoid's reaction time, literally faster than most people can see. You may perform standard attacks, physical move actions other than a standard move and 5 ft steps a number of times per round equal to six times your dexterity modifier, to the limit of 60 (i.e. 1/10 of a second per action). The normal limits of action economy (i.e. number of attacks/round or moves/round) no longer apply. In addition, contingencies, magical triggers and physical traps can no longer trigger against your actions. Readied and immediate actions by other characters still apply, provided the enemy in question can act at least 1/3 as many times per round as you can.

Disrupting Strike
If magic and supernatural power can impose an effect, you've learned how to break them by imposing an opposing effect, often violently. Against magical barriers that form some physical projection you can hit (including but not limited to most wall spells, force effects, created or conjured objects and summoned creatures) you can substitute your normal attack and damage with a strength check against a DC of 11+power level. If successful, you disrupt the effect and the effect ends. Against creatures magically controlled or influenced to act against you, you may perform either such a strength check against the creature or an intimidate check, providing overt proof that acting against you is against the creature's survival; if the magic control can't force a creature to act against its own survival the effect is immediately broken. If the magic control can force creatures to act against their interest, they get a will save to break this control (whether a save is normally allowed or not) and may substitute your strength or intimidate check if it is better.

Perseus
2013-09-17, 07:01 PM
This is why I like 4e. There are abilities of the "Dark Wanderer" Epic Destiny from Martial Power that basically let you do this. The one that lets you return from the dead is basically "your spirit walks through the planes for 24 hours, finding portals and routes that lead you back to the spot where you died".

Well 4e did make mundanes useful again on a base level which really hasn't been seen since 2e.

toapat
2013-09-17, 08:25 PM
A common misconception not supported by facts. A tier 1 character can solve any situation if a) their player knows that situation exactly, b) the entire resources of the class are put into resolving the situation, and c) the theoretical player gets to cherry-pick the solution out of thousands of options for that class, when that class only has about 50-60 options.


Tell you what. Do the following;

1) Build a wizard using non campaign-specific material.
2) Have him memorize spells.
3) Have him pull off his daily preparations.

After you do that, see how many situations you can think of that he can't deal with, assuming 4-5 encounters paced every 4-5 hours. Do note that the optimization level of the challenges should match the optimization level of the wizard.

I can make a level 1 grey elf wizard able to deal with a vast number of problems, using only Core and Complete arcane. 5-6 times per day.

(hint, Elves need 4 hours of rest, wizards can reprepare spells as many times as they can achieve "rest" per day. Rope Trick SLA lvl 1)

at level 4 he has a 1/4 chance of permanently defeating the tarrasque.


Given Unearthed Arcana i can take said grey elf wizard, and make them trounce CR6s at level 1.



The fact is, a T1 class has the ability to utterly bypass the game. from the first level, given the right resources

Amechra
2013-09-17, 08:44 PM
toapat, they explicitly need 8 hours of rest to recover spells.

toapat
2013-09-17, 08:46 PM
toapat, they explicitly need 8 hours of rest to recover spells.

Elves count as rested in 4, however.

Edit, PHB p15: Elves: Physical Description:

Elves do not sleep, as members of other races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

Zaydos
2013-09-17, 08:58 PM
Elves count as rested in 4, however. (note, not in the SRD rules)

Recovering spells explicitly requires elves to rest for 8 hours still (elves don't need to sleep instead trancing for 4 hours) and any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against your next day's stuff anyway.

The rules for preparing spells are in the SRD and state this clearly (bolding is mine)


Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.


Daily Readying of Spells
Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

Recent Casting Limit
As with wizards, any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer’s or bard’s daily limit.

toapat
2013-09-17, 09:23 PM
The rules for preparing spells are in the SRD and state this clearly (bolding is mine)

your argument is based on considerations for non-sleeping races (warforged, undead), not Elves, as well as factual oversights within the rules

"does not need to Sleep" is not the same as "Does not sleep, as members of the other common races do" Elves qualify as having all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep when only spending 4 trancing, however they must still spend that full additional hour when interrupted

the other problem is the lack of Sleep-Deprivation rules technically meaning that no one needs to sleep. Rich has lampshaded that fact at least twice, once in Dragon/Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails, as well as in "Dont split the party" where V only starts loosing ability after it becomes a plot mechanic for her burning all her 6th level spells on a triviality.

jojolagger
2013-09-17, 09:32 PM
Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must have a clear mind. To clear her mind she must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversa- tion, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elf wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds. Thus, an elf wizard could trance for 4 hours and rest for 4 hours, then prepare spells.
lol nope, elf wizards don't get twice the spells

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-17, 09:34 PM
"does not need to Sleep" is not the same as "Does not sleep, as members of the other common races do" Elves qualify as having all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep when only spending 4 trancing, however they must still spend that full additional hour when interrupted
So... you're saying that because elves occupy a grey area between "sleeping" and "not sleeping," they get to ignore both sets of rules regarding how they regain spells? :smallconfused:

In any case, changing your abilities day-to-day isn't enough to make you T1-- look at the Binder, or Incarnum classes, both of which can do almost totally different things depending on what abilities they "prepare." It's a combination of that sort of versatility and the sheer power of the spells themselves that make the classes T1.

A mundane would not only need abilities that let him stab his way from one plane to another, run across the world at the speed of sound, and panic enemies by winking at them, he'd need to be able to switch between said abilities with ease.

toapat
2013-09-17, 09:36 PM
So... you're saying that because elves occupy a grey area between "sleeping" and "not sleeping," they get to ignore both sets of rules regarding how they regain spells? :smallconfused:

actually they obey "Does Sleep" with their own spin, 4 Hours for them qualifies at 8 hours.


PHB p 178 was referenced. however, this is not actually the primary source of Wizard spellcasting in 3.5's PHB, thats page 57

Zaydos
2013-09-17, 10:28 PM
actually they obey "Does Sleep" with their own spin, 4 Hours for them qualifies at 8 hours.


PHB p 178 was referenced. however, this is not actually the primary source of Wizard spellcasting in 3.5's PHB, thats page 57

You mean where it says see page 177 and makes no mention of the time required besides telling you which page to look on?

Also note that unless you have it at-will or 4+ times per day the Rope Trick SLA will run out of uses (since those are on a 24 hour reset time) and you need a CL of at least 5 (as you also need an hour to prepare spells).

jojolagger
2013-09-17, 10:45 PM
PHB p 178 was referenced. however, this is not actually the primary source of Wizard spellcasting in 3.5's PHB, thats page 57
PHB 177 - 178 is the primary source on preparing wizard spells. Please stop trying to read the rules in the most broken way possible. The example specifically calls you wrong. In the primary source for spellcasting (spellcasting chapter of PH), specifically the Arcane, the wizard, then Preparing wizard spells section.

The Mentalist
2013-09-17, 10:58 PM
If you go to a slightly anime flair you could cut your way through the Planes (for Planeshift of course) you could force an honorable duel for a request (for Geas or Dominate Person) you could do the work of 10000 men (for Fabricate, creations) and you could have Sherlock Holmes style detective skills (Metacognition, Divination) an unearthly gaze (most Enchantment effects) you can shoot yourself from a bow (with greatly enhanced range) for a teleportation effect. You could shoot an arrow into the sun and have it return to earth for fireball/meteor swarm effects.

This is just off the top of my head, but I think that at most you'll reach tier 2 without being able to change up class abilities on the fly.

Yitzi
2013-09-17, 11:14 PM
"does not need to Sleep" is not the same as "Does not sleep, as members of the other common races do"

Actually, it is the same (or at least the latter implies the former).

Furthermore, that interpretation is the only one that makes logical sense: If a warforged, who does not need any form of sleep-like behavior, requires 8 hours of restful calm to prepare spells, all the more so an elf, who at least needs to trance to function optimally, needs 8 hours of restful calm to prepare spells.

Andion Isurand
2013-09-17, 11:16 PM
Yeah, I agree with the fact that most feats, by themselves, can't get above tier 3....

So sometimes, when I make custom monsters without class levels that don't have abilities on par with primary spellcasting, I typically just load them up with bonus combat feats and/or a set of martial maneuvers with their own refresh mechanic.

Sometimes I will add spell-like abilities that simulate using Ki to perform certain actions, usable only so often to simulate "recharging"...

http://magerune.blogspot.com/2013/09/aerial-eden.html
This first one is mostly "magical" in the way it generally moves and operates. Its abilities are not "fluffed"to be based on Ki.

http://magerune.blogspot.com/2013/08/clockwork-auto-vessel.html
This second one uses some magical spell-like abilities as a matter of utility, but also has tons of combat feats and martial maneuvers. It's use of blood wind is fluffed to be based on Ki. (although it doesn't say as much)

http://magerune.blogspot.com/2013/09/penance_16.html
This third one is more of a PC made as a unique outsider, that borrows features from certain classes, while also using spell-like abilities to mimic abilities rooted in the use of her Ki, most notably the constant spell-like abilities, the electricity-based spell-like abilities, as well as thunderclap and blood wind.

The chaos, entropy and arcane dilettante spell-like abilites were added mostly to mimic actual magic ability that's not "KI-based."

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 02:36 AM
Defining "mundane" is a challenge here, and so is achieving that oft-declared goal of immense scope. However, I can give you five classes capable of competing with the wizard in sheer combat output.

The Races of War Fighter (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)). Most of the buff here is from Races of War feats, which are an enormous power up on their own, and despite having a bunch of options to juggle it's probably the middle ground for complexity here.

The Races of War Barbarian (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Barbarian,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)). Raw damage and tanking. Wonderful for beginners.

The Races of War Samurai (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Samurai,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)). Arguably the best for porting straight into your campaign and being semi-interesting, but also annoyingly vancian (The Kiai! mechanic specifically). Relies on several Races of War feats, but similar names exist for feats in WotC works so substitution isn't such a problem.

The Fightificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12108951&postcount=33), a roughly-designed Tier 1 class by Ziegander that's designed around making items like the artificer and being OP because you can make awesome stuff. Easily the most portable and most likely to fit the "Tier 1" standard, but also the most complicated (spreadsheet-style) and least fighter-esque IMO.

The Featmaster Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275538), also by Ziegander, with a huge amount of feat access. This is predicated on using his feat rewrites and expansions, which are a big power-up alone. Second-most complicated.

I swear to god if someone starts ranting about Tome of D&D wiki I will step on a puppy.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-18, 08:08 AM
@wizard:
Nope. Even if you get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep as an elf (or using the bedroll that allows you to rest in only 2 hours), the second rule of spell recovery says that any spell cast in the last 8 hours counts against your daily limit. So no matter how fast one can rest, they can't recover a spell slot faster than that. Clerics are significantly worse; they can only recover spells once per 24 hours.

Somensjev
2013-09-18, 06:28 PM
ok, for "mundane" (probably not an appropriate word for any tier 1) i pretty much mean no spell casting or psionics or stuff like that

my idea for the class was sort of like chuck norris cross a nac mac feegle, if that makes sense

JoshuaZ
2013-09-18, 09:45 PM
ok, for "mundane" (probably not an appropriate word for any tier 1) i pretty much mean no spell casting or psionics or stuff like that

my idea for the class was sort of like chuck norris cross a nac mac feegle, if that makes sense

T1 is closer to "Chuck Norris if Chuck Norris jokes were accurate" than it is to Chuck Norris.

Somensjev
2013-09-18, 09:56 PM
T1 is closer to "Chuck Norris if Chuck Norris jokes were accurate" than it is to Chuck Norris.

that's what i meant

JoshuaZ
2013-09-18, 10:12 PM
that's what i meant

The problem is that to most people's notion of "mundane" something like "Can roundhouse kick people into other planes of existence" doesn't sound very mundane.

Somensjev
2013-09-18, 10:14 PM
The problem is that to most people's notion of "mundane" something like "Can roundhouse kick people into other planes of existence" doesn't sound very mundane.

instead of mundane i guess i should say non-magical, non-psionic, etc, etc.

The Mentalist
2013-09-18, 10:15 PM
The problem is that to most people's notion of "mundane" something like "Can roundhouse kick people into other planes of existence" doesn't sound very mundane.

I would also say that we're living in at best an e6 world with e6 myths and getting much beyond that these things don't sound that far-fetched. I could see a sword sharp enough to cut a hole in the planes without magic.

Somensjev
2013-09-18, 10:19 PM
I would also say that we're living in at best an e6 world with e6 myths and getting much beyond that these things don't sound that far-fetched. I could see a sword sharp enough to cut a hole in the planes without magic.

yeah, that's the kinds of things i want
like literally being able to leap over a mountain or something, who needs flying
running so fast you're there immediately, even across large bodies of water if needed
that's the kind of thing i want (pretty much magical things, but fluffed to be "mundane")

Amechra
2013-09-18, 10:39 PM
There needs to be an ability that allows you to transcend language barriers. I suggest talking very loudly and slowly.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 03:13 AM
We should make a table of things a T1 should be able to do, at minimum, which we could use as a base.

So what are some common spell effects and combat outputs, that a mundane would need in order to begin touching T1 flexibility?

{table]By level...|You should be able to...
5|fly
10|teleport without error
10|move between planes
3|force area stuns
5|ignore most skill checks
7|ignore or compensate for all skill checks
17|stop time[/table]

Somensjev
2013-09-19, 04:12 AM
We should make a table of things a T1 should be able to do, at minimum, which we could use as a base.

So what are some common spell effects and combat outputs, that a mundane would need in order to begin touching T1 flexibility?

{table]By level...|You should be able to...
5|fly
10|teleport without error
10|move between planes
3|force area stuns
5|ignore most skill checks
7|ignore or compensate for all skill checks
17|stop time[/table]

doesnt seem too hard
fly = running on air (or something similair)
teleport = running faster than a commoner rail gun can fire
move between planes = sheer force of will (or a well placed roundhouse kick :P )
force area stuns = shout loudly
ignore most skill checks = because he can? i dunno, i can think of something, eventually
stop time = he's just that fast

toapat
2013-09-19, 08:57 AM
fly = running on air (or something similair)

Aku: You can Fly?!?

Jack: No, jump good.


Effortless Leap: Whenever you perform a jump check, you are treated as having rolled any exact value of your choosing from D20+your jump skill. You are always considered to have a running start, and may jump 20 feet horizontally for each point rolled. Alternatively you can jump 5 feet vertically for each point rolled.


Air Vault: You may perform jump actions while in the air to propel yourself forward or upwards.


technically these combined would allow for Mundane-teleportation. IIRC DC80s are achievable before level 20, which would allow massive distances to be crossed in a single action.

Hamste
2013-09-19, 11:32 AM
The jumplomancer would love that feat.

zlefin
2013-09-19, 11:47 AM
ok, now that we have clarity on what you want; how well-balanced does it have to be? Because it's easy to make something hideously unbalanced that will achieve what you want; something that's reasonably playable in a game would require a fair bit of thought however.

the secondary question is how comedic it can be; cuz some of the ways of fluffing the abilities are rather facetious or over-the-top.

Perseus
2013-09-19, 12:44 PM
I'm working on a tier 3 to tier 2 mundane Extraordinary class called the Juggernaut which is in my signature.

I think the best way to break into tier one is to stop thinking in terms of magic versus mundane and start thinking magic versus extraordinary.

Want to cause fire with a metal sword? You swing it so damn fast and hard that the friction of the blade causes an ignition.

Want to plane shift? The Extraordinary guy rips a physical hole in space and time (the planes are physically connected) and step on through.

Extraordinary should be over the top, actually it should be able to stand on the shoulders of giants along with magic.

Eldan
2013-09-19, 01:45 PM
We should make a table of things a T1 should be able to do, at minimum, which we could use as a base.

So what are some common spell effects and combat outputs, that a mundane would need in order to begin touching T1 flexibility?

{table]By level...|You should be able to...
5|fly
10|teleport without error
10|move between planes
3|force area stuns
5|ignore most skill checks
7|ignore or compensate for all skill checks
17|stop time[/table]

I'd say being as general as possible is a good idea. Don't call it fly, call it "sustained movement in three dimensions". It can be air-walking or jumping. Same for teleport. "Intercontinental movement" is better.

Making a list of the common immunities and which level they are available...
We have Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Death Ward and Energy Immunity. What am I forgetting?

Network
2013-09-19, 04:45 PM
I would also say that we're living in at best an e6 world with e6 myths and getting much beyond that these things don't sound that far-fetched. I could see a sword sharp enough to cut a hole in the planes without magic.
The problem with this assumption is that, if it was true, no one would have spoken more than 30 languages fluently, because D&D doesn't allow that by level 5 (or 6). The current world's record is nearly the double of that. Yet people still complain that the Speak skill allows for ''too fast'' fluency...

To contribute to the thread, I think a tier 1 mundane character would be similar to Batman : he makes gadgets for every situation, coupled with the ability to ''deduct'' things with the information at hand and to push himself to the limit of human physical prowesses. Given that he could hinder Darkseid (a god!) in physical combat, and survived, he's hardly just a 6th-level character in D&D standard.

Just look at any badass normal that you can think of. None of them can punch people through another dimension or any similar absurdity, yet they still excel at everything they do. A class based on them can be tier 1.

Edit :
Making a list of the common immunities and which level they are available...
We have Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Death Ward and Energy Immunity. What am I forgetting?
Mind Blank, of course.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-19, 05:37 PM
Things a Tier 1 extraordinary class must be able to do;


1) Overcome terrain obstacles by lvl6 (though not necessarily through flying)
2) Overcome distance obstacles by lvl10 (though not necessarily via teleport)
3) Overcome planar obstacles by lvl 14 (though not necessarily via plane shift)
4) Get resistance to energy by lvl 4
5) Get enhancement bonuses to ability scores starting at lvl 4
6) Get resistance bonuses to saves by lvl 4
7) Get effects similar to deathward by lvl 8
8) Get extra attacks, natural armor and ability boosts by lvl 10 (as in polymorph)
9) Gain abilities to detect various stuff (alignment, thoughts, magic) by lvl 6.
10) Overcome invisibility by lvl 4
11) Overcome illusions and darkness by lvl 12
12) Gain allies starting at lvl 1 and keep getting better and better allies by lvl.
13) Deal save-or-lose by lvl 1 (sleep, anyone?)
14) Deal good area damage at long ranges by lvl 6
15) Deal control by lvl 10 (as in dominate)
16) Deal save or die by lvl 10
17) Manipulate the action economy by lvl 8
18) Unlock doors, sneak invisibly by lvl 4
19) Create very safe places of rest by lvl 4.
20) Gain the abilities of any monster by lvl 17

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 08:37 PM
I'd say being as general as possible is a good idea. Don't call it fly, call it "sustained movement in three dimensions". It can be air-walking or jumping. Same for teleport. "Intercontinental movement" is better.

Making a list of the common immunities and which level they are available...
We have Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Death Ward and Energy Immunity. What am I forgetting?

Well this isn't for inclusion in a class. We wouldn't call the ability "flight" if that didn't sound good. It's just that "fly" is a nice commonly-used word for referencing 3D movement, and it's only one syllable.

EDIT: Another question: How much scope is Tier 1 scope? For example, a sorcerer is Tier 2 because it has X amount of flexibility. How do we quantify that flexibility, and how much more does it need before we can round off to Tier 1?

toapat
2013-09-19, 08:59 PM
EDIT: Another question: How much scope is Tier 1 scope?

Typically able to provide solutions to at least one problem regardless of the refference problem, and the ability to solve entirely unrelated problems the next day

potentially, the ability to solve every problem with a spell selection, such as Wizards can do at high enough optimization

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 09:04 PM
So T1 scope should be "can solve anything, given time"?

Cause then I don't think a T1 'mundane' is possible. Not without copying the Spell Compendium.

Eldan
2013-09-20, 08:26 AM
That's one problem, yes.

Basically, what makes a tier 1 as opposed to a tier 2 is that you can't have a limited number of possible abilities.

A sorcerer is limited in how many spells he can know. A wizard isn't (or is only limted by money and time, though then sorcerers also have runestaves...).

Even more so: with every new book that comes out, a tier 1 almost automatically gets new abilities. That was actually one of my favourite ways to show the inequality.

A new sourcebook comes out. It contains something new for every class.

Fighter: awesome! I only need to level up two more times, then I can learn this awesome feat!

Sorcerer: awesome! I only need to level up and then I can learn all these new spells!

Wizard: awesome! I run to the shop and buy these new spells!

Cleric! awesome! I'll pray immediately and test all these spells I now know!


Your tier 1 mundane would have to have something equivalent. You can't have a limited list of abilities known, you have to be able to learn them all and be able to pick up new ones at pretty much any time.

The_Final_Stand
2013-09-20, 08:27 AM
All problems can be solved, provided you punch them hard enough. Or, to be more precise, all problems can be reduced to a state that can be resolved by punching something sufficiently hard.

Locked door? Punch it down. Sneaking mission? Punch the guards so hard they forget they ever saw you. Diplomacy? Figure out why you need to play diplomat, then punch the problem. Need to fly? Punch the ground until you are in the air, then punch the air. Teleporting? Punch the ground with your feet, and punch any barriers to your path. Need to break planar boundaries? Punch the entire plane so hard you move onto another one. You're being mind controlled? Punch the mind control, then punch the mind controller. Illusions? Punch until they break. Need to see Invisibility? Punch the ground and throw up dust. Action economy? Punch faster. Survive in lava/blizzard/acid/thunderstorm? Punch it out of the way. Incoming arrows? Punch them. About to die? Punch Death himself.

And naturally, damage? On a single target, PUNCH. On multiple targets? Punch more frequently. Save or Dies? There is no save against PUNCHING.

As such, we see that a properly retooled Monk is the best candidate to be a T1 mundane class.

This entire post was satirical, in case it wasn't obvious. :smallwink:

Zelkon
2013-09-20, 08:52 AM
All problems can be solved, provided you punch them hard enough. Or, to be more precise, all problems can be reduced to a state that can be resolved by punching something sufficiently hard.

Locked door? Punch it down. Sneaking mission? Punch the guards so hard they forget they ever saw you. Diplomacy? Figure out why you need to play diplomat, then punch the problem. Need to fly? Punch the ground until you are in the air, then punch the air. Teleporting? Punch the ground with your feet, and punch any barriers to your path. Need to break planar boundaries? Punch the entire plane so hard you move onto another one. You're being mind controlled? Punch the mind control, then punch the mind controller. Illusions? Punch until they break. Need to see Invisibility? Punch the ground and throw up dust. Action economy? Punch faster. Survive in lava/blizzard/acid/thunderstorm? Punch it out of the way. Incoming arrows? Punch them. About to die? Punch Death himself.

And naturally, damage? On a single target, PUNCH. On multiple targets? Punch more frequently. Save or Dies? There is no save against PUNCHING.

As such, we see that a properly retooled Monk is the best candidate to be a T1 mundane class.

This entire post was satirical, in case it wasn't obvious. :smallwink:

Satire? Yes. Something I need? Yes. Someone do this now. Please.

Somensjev
2013-09-20, 10:59 AM
All problems can be solved, provided you punch them hard enough. Or, to be more precise, all problems can be reduced to a state that can be resolved by punching something sufficiently hard.

Locked door? Punch it down. Sneaking mission? Punch the guards so hard they forget they ever saw you. Diplomacy? Figure out why you need to play diplomat, then punch the problem. Need to fly? Punch the ground until you are in the air, then punch the air. Teleporting? Punch the ground with your feet, and punch any barriers to your path. Need to break planar boundaries? Punch the entire plane so hard you move onto another one. You're being mind controlled? Punch the mind control, then punch the mind controller. Illusions? Punch until they break. Need to see Invisibility? Punch the ground and throw up dust. Action economy? Punch faster. Survive in lava/blizzard/acid/thunderstorm? Punch it out of the way. Incoming arrows? Punch them. About to die? Punch Death himself.

And naturally, damage? On a single target, PUNCH. On multiple targets? Punch more frequently. Save or Dies? There is no save against PUNCHING.

As such, we see that a properly retooled Monk is the best candidate to be a T1 mundane class.

This entire post was satirical, in case it wasn't obvious. :smallwink:

i dont care how satirical it is, i'd love the idea of everything being a binary option
0 = punch and 1 = punch harder
best. class. ever. :smallbiggrin:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-20, 11:07 AM
Satire? Yes. Something I need? Yes. Someone do this now. Please.

...is it bad that I really, really want to make this now?

Misery Esquire
2013-09-20, 11:26 AM
...is it bad that I really, really want to make this now?

"I make a full BAB attack against the rules of physics. What's the AC?"

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-09-20, 11:30 AM
"I make a full BAB attack against the rules of physics. What's the AC?"
So, basically, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. :smallbiggrin:

Siosilvar
2013-09-20, 11:31 AM
FALCOOOOON~ PAWNCH~!

Need to retcon something?

http://etherealemission.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/81560-186971-superboy-prime_super.png

(hopefully that shows up for everybody else)

Zelkon
2013-09-20, 12:02 PM
...is it bad that I really, really want to make this now?

DOOOOOOOEEEEEEEET! I beseech you. This is something I can't live without.

Jormengand
2013-09-20, 12:06 PM
DOOOOOOOEEEEEEEET! I beseech you. This is something I can't live without.

I concur. I might make it myself if you don't, and lord knows my homebrew is terrible.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-20, 12:11 PM
DOOOOOOOEEEEEEEET! I beseech you. This is something I can't live without.

Alright. It's now got the #1 spot on the list of things I'll homebrew when I get a minute.

As a spoiler? One ability is already named. Why would you ever try to mentally dominate someone whose mind is full of Fevered Dreams of Ferocious Punching? It just sounds like you're asking for your psyche to be punched clean out of you...

zlefin
2013-09-20, 12:28 PM
It sounds like other people have this request well in hand and sufficiently clarified, so I'll leave you to designing the class.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-20, 01:09 PM
Ok, just made a high-tier martial class that's both versatile and powerful. Follows my old feat-master homebrew, except it is more streamlined and simple, while having fewer limitations.

zlefin
2013-09-27, 08:59 AM
where is that one belial? I've been loosely following homebrew so I may have missed yours, or anyone else's made pursuant to this thread.
so if anyone else made one such, please say so.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-27, 12:59 PM
It's here; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304478

Makes a warrior class that uses feats like a caster uses spells on the assumption that having a feat's benefit for 4-5 fights is on par with casting a spell once.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-28, 04:14 PM
so if anyone else made one such, please say so.
I posted it earlier, but I think it got overlooked: the Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276481). I tried to balance it against "well-played-but-not-game-breaking" casters, though who knows if I succeeded. A brief playtest put it at a similar power level to the warblade-- or maybe even a bit above-- but we never got to out-of-combat stuff.

To make it T2 in truth (ie, broken), I'd change the following Deeds:

Orator's Soul gives a bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy checks equal to your Legend level.
Legendary Smith also grants Craft Wondrous Item when you take it, and allows you to reduce the experience point costs of crafted items by (level*key ability modifier*10).
Perfect Lecture Technique may be used 1/minute/target
Words of Friendship becomes charm monster at will, as an Ex ability.
A Thousand Hours loses the restriction about no tasks requiring a skill check.
Essence of Divinity becomes an auto-diplomacy check on anyone in the area, with a minimum modifier of level+key ability modifier.
Voice of Utter Conviction becomes dominate monster at will, as an Ex ability and without the telepathic control.
Summon Army turns listeners into Warblades of the appropriate level, using the elite array, whose weapons and armor count as magic with an enhancement bonus equal to one-half your key ability modifier.


And maybe also grant each new tier of deeds 2-3 levels earlier than the table specifies.

To approach T1... still probably not possible, not even if you granted all Deeds. Maybe if you turned Legendary Smith into a standard class feature, gave him the Artificer's craft reserve and Retain Essence abilities, moved A Thousand Hours to a lower tier, and granted all magic item creation feats (except for wand/scroll/staff creation)... although that's edging dangerously close to the Fighterficer, which is a T1, but only because of the Artificer half of the gestalt.

Forrestfire
2013-09-28, 07:40 PM
I feel like a lot of any "tier 1" mundane class is going to look like a class that takes the liberal interpretation of Iron Heart Surge and stretches it into 20 levels.

... which sounds extremely awesome, come to think of it. I might try my hand at homebrewing something like that as well (although it would probably end up being made with the goal of being tier 3 instead of 1, because balance is nice).

Rakoa
2013-09-28, 09:13 PM
Did I read this thread? No.

Did I read even most of this thread? No.

I just need something clarified.

Did somebody make the guy that punches everything yet? Because I so must have it. Somebody. Please. Link.

Network
2013-09-28, 10:38 PM
Did somebody make the guy that punches everything yet? Because I so must have it. Somebody. Please. Link.
Here you go... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983)

The Mentalist
2013-09-29, 12:40 AM
I'm working on something to raise the abilities of mundanes through variants of skill tricks (my current batches are based off of Exalted Charms though there will be others) I don't want to take them to tier 1 or maybe even not to tier 2 (though there will be some options that could give you a few tier 2 tricks) but I think if I can implement them properly it could be a big boost to mundanes. I've got a few different implementation options that I'm looking at at the moment so we shall see.

Lord Raziere
2013-09-29, 12:55 AM
I have an idea for a mundane tier 1 actually.

The Leader

basically he'd have vast amounts of mundane resources, such as assassin squads, bomb squads, soldiers, mercantile guilds and so on and so forth. His class features would basically his vast connections, money, political and economic power that he possesses which he uses to solve any situation by making big groups of people do it for him.

Want an insta-death effect? an assassin sniper squad does that.
Want transportation? he has the fastest ships on air and sea.
Want to destroy massive amounts of enemies? hire a bomb squad to do it for you
Want to fight? hire a bunch of mercs.
want to produce things? build workshop that makes various mundane items.
Need to take care of a wizard? hire another wizard, its perfectly mundane, cause its using mundane methods to get a wizard to use his magic.

and so on, and so forth. mundane doesn't just mean your physical body.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-29, 08:33 AM
My feat-based warrior class can technically do that, if you want to use broken mechanics. All he has to do is take Leadership and Epic Leadership 5 times each (which he can technically do as a standard action). And maybe add Legendary Commander or something.
Flavor-wise, he's prearranged for some help to arrive in a given situation by learning the feats. So when he "takes up" the Leadership feats, flavor-wise he gives the signal for his cohorts/armies to appear on the field, as previously arranged, or it is the point where previously arranged plans come to pass - like a villain having arranged for his henchmen to bust him out of prison. Or a heroic warrior will speak to the citizens of a city for the need and raise some militia on the spot through his fame and personality and stuff.

Flavor-wise it fits. Power-wise it matches a Wizard chain-gating stuff. Not infinite numbers perhaps, but it isn't magical so you don't care about anti-magic defenses.





Of course, just like the wizard can do anything arcane spells can, so can my Warrior do anything feats can (provided he knows the right feats)

Zelkon
2013-09-29, 12:16 PM
Here's something I threw together in an hour. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16121514#post16121514)

Network
2013-09-29, 01:29 PM
I have an idea for a mundane tier 1 actually.

The Leader

basically he'd have vast amounts of mundane resources, such as assassin squads, bomb squads, soldiers, mercantile guilds and so on and so forth. His class features would basically his vast connections, money, political and economic power that he possesses which he uses to solve any situation by making big groups of people do it for him.

Want an insta-death effect? an assassin sniper squad does that.
Want transportation? he has the fastest ships on air and sea.
Want to destroy massive amounts of enemies? hire a bomb squad to do it for you
Want to fight? hire a bunch of mercs.
want to produce things? build workshop that makes various mundane items.
Need to take care of a wizard? hire another wizard, its perfectly mundane, cause its using mundane methods to get a wizard to use his magic.

and so on, and so forth. mundane doesn't just mean your physical body.
Anyone can do that. With enough money, that is. Mercenaries tend to be cheap enough to be worth it. Though I think class features and roleplay should not overlap.

I think a couple of people on the topic underestimate the importance of versatility. Belial_the_Leveler's warrior is tier 2 at most, because while the class allows anything to be done*, no warrior can learn all the feats he needs. It's closer to a sorcerer than to a wizard, and sorcerers aren't tier 1.

* I'd say even this assumption is dubious. Feats don't let you teleport, become invisible and silent, or survive with three digits worth of negative hit points, unless you are a spellcaster or own a legacy weapon. In these two cases, the warrior class becomes broken.

Lord Raziere
2013-09-29, 02:36 PM
not by my impression no. adventurers spend all their money on magical upgrades, and the DnD money system has so many ridiculous/big numbers that I can't be bothered to keep track of them all. and the leadership feat is a poor replacement for what I envision.

Network
2013-09-29, 03:26 PM
not by my impression no. adventurers spend all their money on magical upgrades, and the DnD money system has so many ridiculous/big numbers that I can't be bothered to keep track of them all. and the leadership feat is a poor replacement for what I envision.
Really? A 20th-level fighter mercenary only costs 6 gp/day by RAW (see DMG), and they carry their own load of equipment with them (you only need to pay for non-reusable resources, such as wands). You can have an army of these before the price begins to matter. A 20th-level mercenary spellcaster costs 200 gp/day (Complete Arcane), which is less affordable, but still very doable.

I really can't see how an adventuring party can't afford to pay 6 gp. Even at first level, it's less than their daily outcome once it has been split up. And if the GM let you treat the mercenaries as cohorts, you don't waste any single XP.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-29, 03:26 PM
Yep, warriors are tier 2. They can do physical combat, invulnerability, combat maneuvers, self-healing, self-buffing, mobility/action economy, stealth/invisibility, mental influence/control, defeating illusions and arranging armies. They can't directly do planar travel, teleportation, dispelling, buffing others and casting illusions. (unless they get followers who can)

Do note however that a wizard can't learn and, more importantly, can't memorize all spells at once. Sure, some spells like Gate allow the wizard to get access to stuff he doesn't have prepared but then again so would Leadership abilities to a mundane.



A 20th-level mercenary spellcaster costs 200 gp/day (Complete Arcane), which is less affordable, but still very doable.
You additionally need to pay for the cost of services rendered because having spells cast on your behalf is priced separately. Having a 9th level spell cast for you would cost nearly 2000 gp for a single casting.

Network
2013-09-29, 04:03 PM
Do note however that a wizard can't learn and, more importantly, can't memorize all spells at once. Sure, some spells like Gate allow the wizard to get access to stuff he doesn't have prepared but then again so would Leadership abilities to a mundane.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was trying to emphasis that, while a wizard can expend resources to learn spells beyond the ones he gains due to levelling up, thus giving him a wide selection of spells to prepare from, your warrior only knows an handful of feats. He can change an attuned feat, but not a known feat. By definition, characters from a tier 1 class can use any trick of the class if they can invest enough resources for it.

You additionally need to pay for the cost of services rendered because having spells cast on your behalf is priced separately. Having a 9th level spell cast for you would cost nearly 2000 gp for a single casting.
I don't recall the exact wording, so I'm not sure whether it's covered by their wage or not. You may be right.

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-29, 06:08 PM
Eh? They learn 2 feats per level from the class itself, plus can spend time to learn additional feats they may gain access to. I went with time as a resource instead of money so GMs can better control access during a campaign. If I had to price the ability, I'd say 1000 gp per feat known would be an adequate average price - the same average cost as for scrolls.

Zweisteine
2013-09-29, 06:30 PM
I kind of just skipped over the entire thread (minus the first bits), so this may have been suggested before.

Make a class with supreme mental and physical discipline (kind of like a monk, but more OP).
It'd have to get pretty much every ability from the non=magical classes, and a few other abilities (such as being able to use Iron Heart Surge at will as a free action while unable to move or think, and having it work in the way most character optimizers want it to (shrug off anything short of death*)).

The problem then is that the character still cannot teleport long-distance, shoot energy, summon creatures, rip down castles in moments, create planes, break reality (much), stop time, or defeat a wizard.


Alternatively, it could be a computer engineer, and make supercomputers, nukes, teleportation devices, etc. Make a character have the (totally mundane) technology of Star Wars/Trek. Then it has tier one power and versatility (though a wizard would still win).


Of course, "mundane" technically means boring, so a tier one class really can't be "mundane," because being able to do almost anything doesn't really qualify as boring.


*Character optimizers want that, too, though.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-29, 06:54 PM
Yep, warriors are tier 2.
It's a slick class, don't get me wrong, but I don't believe that feats alone will get you Tier 2 power. Tier 3, sure. You'll be a pretty snazzy T3. All kinds of neat tricks, especially with Epic feats on the table. But I can't think of how you can hit the sort of "bypass an encounter with a standard action" power of a high-tier (caster) character. (Not without using Leadership to gain casting cohorts, which defeats the whole point of a mundane character).

Network
2013-09-29, 07:04 PM
Eh? They learn 2 feats per level from the class itself, plus can spend time to learn additional feats they may gain access to. I went with time as a resource instead of money so GMs can better control access during a campaign. If I had to price the ability, I'd say 1000 gp per feat known would be an adequate average price - the same average cost as for scrolls.
Oops! I missed that. Sorry.

Alternatively, it could be a computer engineer, and make supercomputers, nukes, teleportation devices, etc. Make a character have the (totally mundane) technology of Star Wars/Trek. Then it has tier one power and versatility (though a wizard would still win).
I think I may add that if I make the Batman-based class I mentioned earlier. You probably won't see it before the end of the current base class contest, though.

Actually, the wizard may lose to the class, assuming it has access to antimagic gadgets and such.

Of course, "mundane" technically means boring, so a tier one class really can't be "mundane," because being able to do almost anything doesn't really qualify as boring.
Well, a class whose only class feature over the whole class is a 1st-level ''I can ignore all the rules of the game'' is still boring. Probably.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-29, 07:04 PM
It's a slick class, don't get me wrong, but I don't believe that feats alone will get you Tier 2 power. Tier 3, sure. You'll be a pretty snazzy T3. All kinds of neat tricks, especially with Epic feats on the table. But I can't think of how you can hit the sort of "bypass an encounter with a standard action" power of a high-tier (caster) character. (Not without using Leadership to gain casting cohorts, which defeats the whole point of a mundane character).

This, basically. You can solve a large number of issues with feats, but you cannot "have the potential to solve any given problem."

Tier 2 are basically Tier 1 classes that have to make choices about what they want to be able to do: that's their definition. They've got all the power and all the options (in theory), but any one build can't accomplish all of that.

Your warrior is, in my mind, a rather broken Tier 3. Capable of crazy shenanigans and probably some game-breaking combos, but still not actually Tier 1-2.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-29, 07:34 PM
Your warrior is, in my mind, a rather broken Tier 3. Capable of crazy shenanigans and probably some game-breaking combos, but still not actually Tier 1-2.
"Broken Tier 3" is kind of a weird construction, when you think about it. If you take, say, a Bard or Factotum (can do everything moderately well), and turn it up to 11, you'd expect to get a T1 (can do everything entirely too well), wouldn't you? And yet, you can't really scale things up like that. A Warblade who knows every maneuver in the book is way better than anything else in the tier, but he doesn't have a patch on a Wizard.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-29, 07:53 PM
"Broken Tier 3" is kind of a weird construction, when you think about it. If you take, say, a Bard or Factotum (can do everything moderately well), and turn it up to 11, you'd expect to get a T1 (can do everything entirely too well), wouldn't you? And yet, you can't really scale things up like that. A Warblade who knows every maneuver in the book is way better than anything else in the tier, but he doesn't have a patch on a Wizard.

Eh, every tier has it's broken levels. You can make a Fighter who never misses with melee attacks and instantly kills everything. Overpowered? Hell yes. Tier 1? Not even close. Not even Tier 3.

Network
2013-09-29, 07:53 PM
"Broken Tier 3" is kind of a weird construction, when you think about it. If you take, say, a Bard or Factotum (can do everything moderately well), and turn it up to 11, you'd expect to get a T1 (can do everything entirely too well), wouldn't you? And yet, you can't really scale things up like that. A Warblade who knows every maneuver in the book is way better than anything else in the tier, but he doesn't have a patch on a Wizard.
It's funny. I recently found a counter-argument on this one. Quoted for you :

Your example atcually seems to indicate that you don't yet really understand the tier system. It's not about how many things you can kill and how effectively. Here's an example of a totally overpowered Tier 4 class:

The Superfighter

Level 1: At level 1, the superfighter can kill any creature, anywhere, as a swift action. No immunities or saves apply. No line of effect or sight is required.


This class can do one thing. Kill things. Yet it can effortlessly kill any wizard.

I like to sum up Tier 3 as: rarely useless, often competent.
Edit : ninja'ed.

toapat
2013-09-29, 08:11 PM
It's funny. I recently found a counter-argument on this one. Quoted for you :

Edit : ninja'ed.

technically, he is both correct and incorrect.

Turning "Can do everything moderately well at all times" into "Can do everything Entirely Too well at all times" is not actually Tier 1, its Tier 0. the reason being that Tier 1s can not be perfectly prepared for multiple disparate problems at the same time.

however, for general purposes, that distinction can be thrown out without alot of issue, and it can be summarized as excellent at everything vs decent at everything. Which is why no matter what people say the innitiators are not actually T3, just the physical Roof of T4.


to put it in perspective, Tier 6-4 is a Mountain, growing from the earth, representing a single aspect that one can excell at. Tier 3 is the clouds around the mountain peak. The peak rises into and above the clouds at points, but the clouds can change, the mountain does not. Then, Tier 2 is the atmosphere. They are able to change the mountain, change the clouds below them. And Tier 1+0 are Space, unconstricted by any mechanism or metaphor and with even less definite form.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-29, 08:17 PM
It's funny. I recently found a counter-argument on this one. Quoted for you
Missing my point. I'm musing on the fact that you can take a well-balanced T3 class, give it a crapton of new abilities, and it's still a T3 class. Take another example: gestalt a Warblade and an Incarnate. You'll have the maneuvers to kill things like no-one's business, and the melds to become competent in just about any other aspect of the game you want. Is it more powerful than before? Sure. But it's still not tier 1.

I dunno. I just find it funny (and relevant) that there is such a dividing line. Taking a T3 class and breaking it doesn't necessarily move you up a tier-- there's still this barrier you have to overcome.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-29, 08:26 PM
I dunno. I just find it funny (and relevant) that there is such a dividing line. Taking a T3 class and breaking it doesn't necessarily move you up a tier-- there's still this barrier you have to overcome.

Basically, yes. It's sort of how you can Gestalt all Tier 4-6 classes together, and not be Tier 2. You can actually add in a good number of Tier 3 classes as well: unless you add enough Casters to replicate Tier 2, chance are you still haven't met the criteria yet.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-29, 08:28 PM
Basically, yes. It's sort of how you can Gestalt all Tier 4-6 classes together, and not be Tier 2. You can actually add in a good number of Tier 3 classes as well: unless you add enough Casters to replicate Tier 2, chance are you still haven't met the criteria yet.
Really doesn't say good things about our ability to make a new T1 class, huh?

toapat
2013-09-29, 09:48 PM
Basically, yes. It's sort of how you can Gestalt all Tier 4-6 classes together, and not be Tier 2. You can actually add in a good number of Tier 3 classes as well: unless you add enough Casters to replicate Tier 2, chance are you still haven't met the criteria yet.

this is moreso because infinite effectiveness at combat isnt "Bypass social Encounters 101"

Belial_the_Leveler
2013-09-30, 03:51 AM
This, basically. You can solve a large number of issues with feats, but you cannot "have the potential to solve any given problem."

What kind of given problem, except for instantaneous travel, can't feats solve? If it's a skill challenge, various versions of skill focus take care of it. Social challenges and mystery challenges are usually skill-related. If it's convincing people or reading people, the "read thoughts" and "nonmagical suggestion" epic sense motive and epic bluff uses will usually do. Barriers you can break or escape-artist yourself through, and combat encounters are your bread and butter. Traps are overcome by fully buffing your defense and absorbing them. Illusions and invisibility can be defeated via epic perception checks. Finding stuff via divinations never really worked if the bad guy was smart (lead-lined cloaks, steam-obscured rooms that can't be scried, murderers wearing hoods so their dead victims wont know who they were) but if the "whodoneit" is solvable via skills it's doable to you. Healing comes via fast healing, maneuvers, unquenchable flame of life to ignore negative levels and similar.


And that is for what the class is supposed to do. If you're willing to break the system and ignore the martial flavor of the class you can do just about everything. Get Epic Spellcasting a half-dozen times for example.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-30, 08:05 AM
You can attack a large number of problems with skills, but you're not auto-solving them like a wizard can. That's why you're only tier 3.

Somensjev
2013-09-30, 08:11 AM
i'm just gonna disregard everyones posts for a moment, and say this :smalltongue:

what tier would you place a class that gets:
1. a bonus to every stat every 5 levels, starting at first
2. as many (maybe more or less) attacks as a monk
3. increased land base speed
4. 3 good saves
5. perfect bab
6. 2 bonus feats every level
7. move action chaos shuffle a number of times a day equal to (random stat) modifier+3
8. anything else people can think of?

tier 2? tier 3? low tier 1? :smallconfused:

toapat
2013-09-30, 09:19 AM
*snip*

Tier 4, theres basically nothing outside of combat that you get do to with feats other then epic

Somensjev
2013-09-30, 09:22 AM
Tier 4, theres basically nothing outside of combat that you get do to with feats other then epic

how about if they could get epic?
or
skip prerequisites?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-09-30, 10:01 AM
how about if they could get epic?
or
skip prerequisites?

Probably a super-complicated Tier 4, maybe touching Tier 3, but probably only just.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-30, 10:01 AM
how about if they could get epic?
or
skip prerequisites?
Assuming good skills as well, probably T3, like Belial's Warrior. And complicated with it. But not in a good way.