Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
This guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13492157&postcount=1424) is very rough. But should provide you with at least a starting direction.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel. :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

Helpful Army Building Guides
Adepta Sororitas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16440792&postcount=491)
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15825876&postcount=1137)
Chaos Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14858222&postcount=851)
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14481793&postcount=119)
- CSM Supplements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot&p=17182178&viewfull=1#post17182178)
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14664750&postcount=532)
Dark Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15863892&postcount=1175)
Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15908731&postcount=1213)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14464552&postcount=65) by Squark
Imperial Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16939727&postcount=1074)
Inquisition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot&p=17188866&viewfull=1#post17188866) by Wraith
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14451703&postcount=22) by Squark
Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16334503&postcount=358) by Wraith
Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16065638&postcount=66)
- SM Supplements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot&p=17194651&viewfull=1#post17194651)
Space Wolves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14345467&postcount=1348) by Squark
Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15454276&postcount=563) by Tome

Guide to Apocalypse Units (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15727700&postcount=1014)
Warzone: Damnos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16015574&postcount=1418) - Ultramarines vs. Necrons
Warzone: Pandorax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16466457&postcount=514) - Chaos Space Marines vs. Catachans, Dark Angels and Grey Knights
Warzone: Damocles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17231655&postcount=1305) - Tau Empire vs. White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Guard and Knight Titans

Forge World
(IA1/2E) Imperial Guard Armoured Battle Group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16838329&postcount=972) - by Issabella
(IA2/2E) Space Marine Vehicles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16977518&postcount=1084)
(IA9 / 10) Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16807713&postcount=890)
(IA12) The Dark Harvest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16994548&postcount=1096) - Necrons
(IA12) The Minotaurs and Krieg Assault Brigade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17033958&postcount=1143) - Space Marines and Imperial Guard

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)



Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15044260&postcount=1114) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Previously in the grim darkness...

Shadow Archmagi had a game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16031564&postcount=1454)
An Iron Hands' Land Raider Achilles is OP. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16035578&postcount=1461)
Cheesegear shows you what he's been playing with so far. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16039360&postcount=1468)

We now return you to the grim darkness...


you might have problems with


vehicle spam, waveserpents especially
ignores cover will hurt
hordes
fast close combat


I've dealt with three Wave Serpents. Not easily. But I did. I don't expect to deal with more than three. But, I'm also not expecting to win every game I play because that's really, really hard currently.

Ignores Cover does hurt. That's why I'm tempted to cram in a Rune Priest just to stop that particular Power from going off.

Hordes die. Fast. Did you spot the double Thunderfire Cannons? Or the 30 Boltguns? Anyway, I dealt with 64 Kroot, and was relatively fine. I project that I could probably deal with ~80 models without too much trouble.

Fast close combat...Doesn't really come up. Have you been playing 6th Edition? The closest I came was Outflanking Kroot - which I can do with the Scouts, too. Which, I already said that I dealt with.

I'm welcome to solutions. The Drop Pod is for getting the Librarian in Psychic Shriek range which kills a Riptide in one go, and the Sternguard are just...Good. They make people fire at them instead of my Thunderfires or Devastators.

But, I'm welcome to suggestions if you think you can fix the list.

[Squark]

Uh, Cheesegear, the top post needs updating. Being rolled into Codex: Space Marines has made Black Templars playable again.

[shadow_archmagi]

Most excellent. Shadowsun's extra cover is very nice in my experience. My problem tends to be not having her run away enough and then people charge her and punch her in the face. :smallfrown:

How were the marker lights? I do not have any pathfinders, having focused more on building up my swarm of firewarriors and kroot.

Yeah, it could easily have gone south for me if he had succeeded on his assault roll (Which, admittedly, was improbable, as he was like 10 or 11 inches away at that point, so I decided that risking an assault was better than leaving cover.)

The markerlights were okay- I ended up using them mostly to buff my command squad rather than for a hail of accurate pulse fire like I'd planned. Being able to fire the cyclic ion gun and missile launcher on BS 5 (not to mention Shadowsun's dual fusion blasters on BS 7) made a difference.

I definitely have to admit that they'd have been more useful if I'd had a larger unit of fire warriors. I'm glad they were there, because if he'd tried to push my objective with an assault team, there would've been at least one turn where he was close enough to triggered Rapid Fire, and 18 shots at BS 5 or 6 would've stood a good chance of wiping his marines out before they assaulted.

That reminds me- Do Pathfinders get to fire their rifles *and* their markerlights, or do they have to pick one? Usually units fire all the guns they've got, right? But for some reason I could've sworn that Pathfinders had to pick. May just be a preconception from something else. Do they keep the markerlights if you arm them with railguns? That might be something to see.

(Also, I realize I could look this up on my own time, but I'm away from my Codex right now and I'll forget by the time I'm home- Is Overwatch a single shot, a single shot from each weapon, or all weapons firing their full value?)

[Squark]

Yeah, it could easily have gone south for me if he had succeeded on his assault roll (Which, admittedly, was improbable, as he was like 10 or 11 inches away at that point, so I decided that risking an assault was better than leaving cover.)

The markerlights were okay- I ended up using them mostly to buff my command squad rather than for a hail of accurate pulse fire like I'd planned. Being able to fire the cyclic ion gun and missile launcher on BS 5 (not to mention Shadowsun's dual fusion blasters on BS 7) made a difference.

I definitely have to admit that they'd have been more useful if I'd had a larger unit of fire warriors. I'm glad they were there, because if he'd tried to push my objective with an assault team, there would've been at least one turn where he was close enough to triggered Rapid Fire, and 18 shots at BS 5 or 6 would've stood a good chance of wiping his marines out before they assaulted.

That reminds me- Do Pathfinders get to fire their rifles *and* their markerlights, or do they have to pick one? Usually units fire all the guns they've got, right? But for some reason I could've sworn that Pathfinders had to pick. May just be a preconception from something else. Do they keep the markerlights if you arm them with railguns? That might be something to see.

(Also, I realize I could look this up on my own time, but I'm away from my Codex right now and I'll forget by the time I'm home- Is Overwatch a single shot, a single shot from each weapon, or all weapons firing their full value?)

Each individual model (Unless it's a Monstrous creature, vehicle, or has a rule that says it can make more shooting attacks, like Crisis Suits) can only fire a single gun in a turn. So, for example, a Space Marine has a boltgun and bolt pistol, but if the enemy is within 12", he has to choose between getting two shots with the boltgun or a single shot with the pistol, but being able to charge this turn.

[Ishikar]

Each individual model (Unless it's a Monstrous creature, vehicle, or has a rule that says it can make more shooting attacks, like Crisis Suits) can only fire a single gun in a turn. So, for example, a Space Marine has a boltgun and bolt pistol, but if the enemy is within 12", he has to choose between getting two shots with the boltgun or a single shot with the pistol, but being able to charge this turn.

This is correct, it also places the Riptide in the unusual situation of being able to shoot more guns a turn than it could ever carry (it only has primary/secondary and can shoot 3 guns per turn for base+MC+Multi-tracker).

As for the game itself I had a few thoughts:

Tau Anti-Armor is still pretty powerful but we sadly lost some punch from the broadsides so we're more reliant on Fusion now (though 18" melta is nice). I tend to run a little lighter on Fusion as we're pretty light on vehicles in our local meta (only 1 guard tank company player) and AV 14 is almost unheard of (a few of us have landraiders but they don't see much play with the number of drop-vets people run).

Pathfinders are nice but work best as a force multiplier, I typically don't worry about fielding them until higher point values as more bullets is generally better for not having the randomness of dice ruin your day. I typically run maybe a squad at 1000 and fairly typically 3 6-man teams at 1850. Be careful when you have ignores cover weapons on the table though since they've dropped to a 5+ armor from 4+ and that REALLY hurts their ability to survive against them.

[shadow_archmagi]

You're probably right about the pathfinders not being super good at this point. Let me just do some quick math-


Let's assume we're fighting Space Marines, which I will be most of the time because they're popular.

Tau Pulse Rifle has, by default, can wound T4 units on 3+. That's a 4/6 chance, or 2/3rds, so if you figure the number of hits and multiply by 2/3rds you can find the number of expected wounds.

Squad of nine (my current arrangement) thus anticipates three wounds. Squad of fifteen (hypothetically, since you can't have a squad that big) would anticipate five wounds.

Now then, for a six-man pathfinder squad, you can average two markerlights, which changes the math a bit.

83% hit chance

55% of the squad will cause a wound. Squad of nine anticipates five wounds. Using six extra characters to cause two extra wounds works out to null. (Assuming pathfinders and fire warriors cost the same, which... I don't actually recall what they cost. Curses not having my Codex at work!)

Thus, even in a 500 point game, pathfinders are more or less equivalent to fire warriors in terms of end-result firepower, except that they come with the added bonus of being able to drop an Ignore Cover or ignore cover.

ADDITIONAL MATH, BECAUSE I WORK A JOB WHERE I HAVE FAR TOO FEW RESPONSIBILITIES:

But wait, not everyone is a space marine! What about T3 and T5?

Well, T3 means that you wound on a 2+, so 83% of potential wounds go through. So if your accuracy is 50%, fifteen dice becomes 7.5 hits becomes 6.2 wounds. If your accuracy is 83%, nine dice become 7.47 hits becomes 6.2 wounds.

I don't think I need to say that the math holds steady for T5. We're still breaking even on those pathfinders.

However, what if instead of 9, you had 12 fire warriors? Let's look at 12 markerlit vs 18 normal:

12 dice at 83% turn into 10 hits. 18 dice at 50% turn into 9 hits. Slight, but distinct advantage for the markers. Figure in gun drones, and the advantage becomes even clearer (of course, that means not taking shield drones, which I'm not clear on whether the meta favors that)

But what about an *above* average roll on the markerlights? What if you get four? Well, the gains from having a BS of above 5 are extremely small. Just for funsies, I'll post the whole BS list here (even though BS 10 is impossible to get for fire warriors with one squad of pathfinders):

BS 1: 17% chance to hit
BS 2: 33% chance to hit
BS 3: 50% chance to hit
BS 4: 66% chance to hit
BS 5: 83% chance to hit
BS 6: 86% chance to hit
BS 7: 89% chance to hit
BS 8: 91% chance to hit
BS 9: 94% chance to hit
BS 10: 97% chance to hit.

Trend emerges: Each BS below 6 is worth 16%, each after is worth only 3. Ergo, three rules of thumb emerge for pathfinders:

1. BS is best on inaccurate units, particularly drones. Going from 2 to 5 is far better than going from 5 to 8.

2. It's better to BS large groups than small ones, unless the small group is crisis suits.

3. It's better to BS multiple groups than kick a single group's BS sky high. One squad of pathfinders that rolls all-hits and boosts three squads of twelve fire warriors can claim to have caused twelve extra hits (or 24, if all 36 warriors are using rapid fire.)

[bluntpencil]

With the new marine codex, an Iron Hands Achilles Land Raider is almost indestructible. It's immune to the lance and melta rules, has 14 armor on all sides, two twin-linked multi-meltas, AND a front-mounted Thunderfire Cannon. It can only carry six models, but if one is a Master of the Forge, that sucker will never run out of hull points.

If it simply has a Techmarine and a couple of servitors inside, it's going to automatically fix the hull anyway, and will be cheaper than buying a Master of the Forge. Oh, does a one auto-fail, if you pack enough servitors in?

Pretty badass.

[Ishikar]

A good bit of math there and it is good general points for Tau players to look at, especially the BS boosts past BS 5. The only reason you'd have to boost BS to 6 for a unit is if it's incidental (boosting Firewarriors to BS 5 boosts the attached fireblade to BS7) or if you're firing a get's hot weapon (Riptide firing an over/nova-charged Ion Accelerator or a nova-charged Heavy Burst Cannon).

Really the best effect of markerlights comes down to who you're shooting at and with what weapons. The general rule of thumb is strip cover first if you'll reduce the save by 2 or more points or remove a save completely. If it's a 1 point reduction then weigh your options (some re-roll mechanics apply, like a demon with a 4+ cover or 5++ re-rollable is actually a NEGATIVE to strip), otherwise boost BS and be done with it.

Marker drones can be a good buy if you're going with crisis suits, they get JSJ/Relentless and if you use pathfinders for the first shots you can maintain accurate fire while suits focus on a unit or if you need to have another unit follow up to cleanup the last few models.

[shadow_archmagi]

A good bit of math there and it is good general points for Tau players to look at, especially the BS boosts past BS 5.


Thanks! :smallbiggrin:



Really the best effect of markerlights comes down to who you're shooting at and with what weapons. The general rule of thumb is strip cover first if you'll reduce the save by 2 or more points or remove a save completely. If it's a 1 point reduction then weigh your options (some re-roll mechanics apply, like a demon with a 4+ cover or 5++ re-rollable is actually a NEGATIVE to strip), otherwise boost BS and be done with it.


Wait, don't they get to choose which save they prefer?



Marker drones can be a good buy if you're going with crisis suits, they get JSJ/Relentless and if you use pathfinders for the first shots you can maintain accurate fire while suits focus on a unit or if you need to have another unit follow up to cleanup the last few models.

What's JSJ? Agree on the marker drones though. Having thought about it more, it *does* seem rather like the Shield drone doesn't offer much over the Marker drone for the same point cost. It's an ablative wound either way, and the magic of jetpacking around all day means you can probably rely on having a cover save comparable to the invul save, so you're not rolling better dice with the shield. I guess it'd help if you planned on being out of cover and shot at with armor-piercing rounds, but that sounds like a terrible plan that would require more than a shield drone to make it reasonable.

[Squark]

You always uses the best saving throw available to you.[quote]What's JSJ?"Jump, Shoot, Jump" It's the basic tactic with Jetpack units and Eldar Jetbikes.

[bluntpencil]

Okay, does Blessing of the Omnissiah auto-fail on a 1?

Because...

2 Iron Hands Techmarines, in a squad with 3 Servitors, inside a Land Raider Achilles will be unkillable, building on ideas from before.

That might be overkill, so one Techmarine with 3 Servitors could do it. Automatically regain 1 Hull Point each turn, 2 Hull Points on a 5+. With an extra Techmarine, it's 2 each turn.

[lord_khaine]

To start a new subject, then i would dare to claim that all of the Eldar phoenix lords are actualy viable picks, and that the only bad HQ choice in the book is Yriel, who is just to suicidal.

But moving on to Jain Zar, then to start with i notice she has the duelist Exarch power, a 2+ save, as well as a AP 2 melee weapon with shred, making her a rather good duelist in my eyes.

And she will certainly also blend almost any type of infantry that gets in range, her Silent Death combines with charge bonus and additional hand weapon more or less being the equivalent to 10 S4 AP2 attacks.

Lastly, her Bashee Mask being wastly superios means it reduces enemy WS as well by 5, meaning that if she charge, then her unit will hit on 3+, and be hit on 5+ against any type of infantery i can imagine.

So, she wants to be with a unit that has plasma grenades, and then either lead them off into a charge, or else just split off from them and murderize someone on her own, if she spots a target outside of cover.

And as far as i can see, then viable picks for this would be either Dire Avengers, who like to get into medium range, and who would enjoy the protection from getting charged.
Or scorpions who also has grenades, are tough enough to follow her across the battlefield, and who could really use the WS debuff she brings to the table.
Or maybe just a unit of Wraithguards in a serpent. They dont have grenades, but then again i belive they are tough enough to not really care. And if they get dropped at the enemy flank early on, then he would have an annoying thorn in his side, that would both be extremely durable, as well as very hard to lock down in combat.

This would of course only aply to larger battles, where you can afford to use both your HQ slots. But i still belive its a viable choice.

[Ishikar]

Wait, don't they get to choose which save they prefer?

What's JSJ? Agree on the marker drones though. Having thought about it more, it *does* seem rather like the Shield drone doesn't offer much over the Marker drone for the same point cost. It's an ablative wound either way, and the magic of jetpacking around all day means you can probably rely on having a cover save comparable to the invul save, so you're not rolling better dice with the shield. I guess it'd help if you planned on being out of cover and shot at with armor-piercing rounds, but that sounds like a terrible plan that would require more than a shield drone to make it reasonable.

The first point depends on how one reads "best" when it comes to saves. Typically you have to roll what save gives you the largest chance of success on the first die (i.e. the 4+ in our scenario) even when the 5+ re-rollable is about 5% more likely to save you. It's a bit of a wonky rules as written and why most MCs for demons that aren't Nurgle tend to ignore most cover anyways. Doubly so with the loss of Null zone to the dust of ages.

As for shield drones they sadly got hit by the nerf bat with the edition/codex change. Before you could always distribute to them first no matter what (not reliant on directional shooting) and they had the same save/Toughness as what they were guarding in addition to the 4+ invulnerable (so shield drones on broadsides were 2+/4++). Shooting from nearest to furthest made shield drones more difficult to use against fast armies or deep strikers and then the adjustment of their armor and standardization of other drone costs made them a little underwhelming. The riptide as a T6 5 wound terminator in our elite slots also pulled back on how often we needed shield drones (missile spam destroys crisis teams but rarely phases a riptide) so now they're more situational than the old "3 suits, MP, PR, MT, Team Lead, drone controller, 2 shield drones" that Tau had to spam to be effective.

As for JSJ, you need to learn to live, love, and breathe that ability to really make Tau shine. You can use it with crisis teams to hop a wall, kill models and then return to hiding or to cover more ground in a turn to contest last turn (my record is 28" with a riptide). It lets you spread out after deep striking so your farsight bomb isn't completely obliterated by a vindicator shot or to get that last little bit of extra space to stretch an assault charge. Really the JSJ trick is 40K whack a mole but just made that much harder because the mole has to roll abnormally low to stay up where you'll even have a chance to hit (barring riptides, they're just too tall to hide well).

[Squark]

Okay, does Blessing of the Omnissiah auto-fail on a 1?

If it doesn't say you don't auto-fail on a 1, assume you don't.

Speaking of Codex Marines, I've been toying with the idea of a codex Marines detachment for ages. With the update, that's starting to look like an even better idea for my Space Wolves. However, I'm not sure what HQ and Troops I want, or which Chapter to go with, for that matter.

HQ: Masters of the Forge and Librarians are both decent options, while a Biker Captain unlocks Bikes as troops (Giving me some mobile scoring post drop pod). The bike captain inevitably becomes the most expensive of the three, I imagine, though. Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?

Troops: Tactical Squads are probably a mediocre idea, Grey Hunters being Grey Hunters. That leaves Sniper Scouts and Bikes. Bikes give me mobility and durability, while Scouts are cheap and can man the backfield. Bear in mind my heavy support slot is definately going to a Thunderfire Cannon, so the Scouts can reasonably count on having a 3+ cover save.

Chapters: Fluff-wise, Imperial Fists and Salamanders are the two that most appeal to me. Imperial Fits want bolters and devastators, though, neither of which I have in abundance. As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby. Mechanically, White Scars have some potential for a biker detachment (But that feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly), while Iron Hands give the scouts feel no pain making them mildly more survivable.

So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)? Any corrections, answers, and recommendations?

[hamishspence]

Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?

The Dark Angel version allows their Chapter Master to take a command squad- whereas for the standard Marine book, only Captains, Librarians, and Chaplains (including special characters who are any of these) unlock command squads when taken.

Chapter Masters (including special characters who are chapter masters) unlock Honour Guard squads instead).

Masters of the Forge don't unlock command squads- and I don't think standard Terminator Captains, as written, do either- though Lysander does- you can take a command squad if you take him.

[thedavo]

Played against new marines (Raven Guard) for the first time tonight, it was interesting. Will post more when I'm less tired. My main thought, post game, is "grav weapons are evil against MEQ"

[Cheesegear]

Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?

Yes. The only HQs that can't have Command Squads are Chapter Masters and Masters of the Forge.


As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby.

If you're Salamanders, remember that the Flamer on the Techmarine is Twin-Linked. Second, Servo-Harness...

"A Servo-Harness gives the bearer an extra Servo-Arm..."

Does that mean two Servo-Arms? Because Masters of the Forge and Gunners start with Servo-Harnesses, and never have Servo-Arms to begin with, so what is the 'extra' one? This is crucially important, because, Servo-Arms, being Specialist Weapons, if you have two of them, you get an extra attack.

Why couldn't they just say 'two Servo-Arms'?


[White Scars] feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly)

It feels like that because it is, and the reason it is, is that it's just so powerful.


So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)?

To go with Space Wolves? Are you packing a lot of Thunderwolves? Because I don't see what Bikes can do that your Thunderwolves aren't already doing, way better.
Scout Sergeant with a Master-Crafted Rifle sounds fun.

[Squark]

To go with Space Wolves? Are you packing a lot of Thunderwolves? Because I don't see what Bikes can do that your Thunderwolves aren't already doing, way better.

Chiefly, they can Move 24" in one turn and still score, something neither Thunderwolves nor Grey Hunters can do.

But, it's looking like Salamanders will be a better plan. Easier on the wallet, too, since I just need 2 boxes of scouts as opposed to two boxes of bikes, grav guns, and an attack bike.

[Yaktan]

How effective do you think a riptide on a quad gun would be? As mentioned above the riptide can fire three weapons, but only ever has two, so it could fire both guns it normally has as well as the quad gun.

[Cheesegear]

How effective do you think a riptide on a quad gun would be?

Sounds awful.

"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."

A Riptide could fire his two weapons. Or, it could fire the Quad-Gun. This is how most people play it. In this case, firing a single weapon that the Riptide has is going to be better than the Quad-Gun.

If you need to bust out RAW, well, a Gun Emplacement isn't designed to be fired by Monstrous Creatures, let alone those with Multi-Trackers. Well, the Gun Emplacement rules only specify one weapon - no plural. So, technically, you can fire it, and another weapon. I'd check with your TO, or, at least point out that's what's going to happen to your oppoent before Deployment.


EDIT: So, instead of going with my gut. I decided to stat it out. I've been copping a bit of flakk for bringing back my 'Scout Company'. Even though the changes to Bolster Defences have made it stupidly good, people still don't believe me. Currently, the popular armies tend to simply just swarm the board. Orks, Tyranids, Kroot. Constant Troop spam seems to win games...Or, just having an unkillable Screamer Star to rampage around the board. The key to beating hordes is Boltguns (and Thunderfire Cannons). Funnily enough, Space Marine Troops have Boltguns in spades.
Then, we come back to Efficiency. Scouts are strictly worse than Tactical Marines. But they cost less. So, you can have more Scouts than Tactical Marines, does that even it out?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Boltgun_zps864bb0fa.jpg

Heavy/Special weapon models not included. So, Scouts have been brought down to the same model count to even out the number of attacks.

...Yes. Yes it does. Who's the idiot now?

[shadow_archmagi]

Had a pretty brutal rematch with the space wolves player, this time at 1000 points. I made the mistake of moving up my command squad without realizing that his Thunder Wolves could move through ruins, so they smashed through the building like a trio of viking koolaid men and ripped up my crisis suits.

Shortly after, they fell to a hail of pulse rifle fire, but my opponent had already bought himself the time and the first blood and warlord VPs that I couldn't come back. When the game ended, I still had the Hammerhead I'd brought along, and probably could've cleaned up his remaining forces with it, but the turn counter ran out.

I need to remember that the game has the potential end on turn 5, and try to play towards VPs rather than Annihilation.

[Squark]

Sounds awful.

"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."

A Riptide could fire his two weapons. Or, it could fire the Quad-Gun. This is how most people play it. In this case, firing a single weapon that the Riptide has is going to be better than the Quad-Gun.

If you need to bust out RAW, well, a Gun Emplacement isn't designed to be fired by Monstrous Creatures, let alone those with Multi-Trackers. Well, the Gun Emplacement rules only specify one weapon - no plural. So, technically, you can fire it, and another weapon. I'd check with your TO, or, at least point out that's what's going to happen to your oppoent before Deployment.


EDIT: So, instead of going with my gut. I decided to stat it out. I've been copping a bit of flakk for bringing back my 'Scout Company'. Even though the changes to Bolster Defences have made it stupidly good, people still don't believe me. Currently, the popular armies tend to simply just swarm the board. Orks, Tyranids, Kroot. Constant Troop spam seems to win games...Or, just having an unkillable Screamer Star to rampage around the board. The key to beating hordes is Boltguns (and Thunderfire Cannons). Funnily enough, Space Marine Troops have Boltguns in spades.
Then, we come back to Efficiency. Scouts are strictly worse than Tactical Marines. But they cost less. So, you can have more Scouts than Tactical Marines, does that even it out?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Boltgun_zps864bb0fa.jpg

Heavy/Special weapon models not included. So, Scouts have been brought down to the same model count to even out the number of attacks.

...Yes. Yes it does. Who's the idiot now?

I think part of the issue is that people have the tendency to think of their troops (particularly among marines, as we don't have bladestorm or sniper rifles on a tactical marine/grey hunter) as glorified special weapons carriers, and in that regard, a tactical squad does have the edge over a scout squad.

But, if the metagame is moving back towards hordes of infantry, that's very much a false assumption. Plus, with cheap devastators, who cares if that one missile launcher is a bit less accurate. Although you do give up some mobility since scout squads don't do as well in open terrain and lack transports. Then again, infiltrate.

[Cheesegear]

I think part of the issue is that people have the tendency to think of their troops [...] as glorified special weapons carriers, and in that regard, a tactical squad does have the edge over a scout squad.

That's why you bring Sternguard-Devastator combos! Although I'm thinking about dropping the Sternguard for a Command Squad for cheaper.

I guess, right now. I don't believe that Codex Marines should be running Tactical Squads. Grey Hunters are just...Better. Just for the simple fact of dual Special weapons means the squad can move around and shoot, and Long Fangs' dual-targeting (not Split Fire!) more than makes up for the lack of Heavy weapons.

IMO; Tactical Squads aren't bad. Scouts and Bikes are just better options.

[Jormengand]

IMO; Tactical Squads aren't bad. Scouts and Bikes are just better options.

I still like taking Tacticals so that for about 110 points I can have a rhino firing a plasma cannon and two bolters out of the top hatch.

[Cheesegear]

I still like taking Tacticals so that for about 110 points I can have a rhino firing a plasma cannon and two bolters out of the top hatch.

While Rhinos having three Fire Points would be a nice change, it doesn't exist.

Second, Rhinos suck and MSU is dead.

[shadow_archmagi]

Is Shadowsun or Generic Commander better for a Riptide? Shadowsun can give rerolls on 1 (without sacrificing her guns) and a 4+ cover save all day every day, but the Generic Commander can pick up the signature systems to allow *all* misses rerolled, and cover to be ignored.

[Cheesegear]

Is Shadowsun or Generic Commander better for a Riptide?

Infiltrating Riptides. lol. "Where did that giant robot come from!?"

The problem with Shadowsun is that she relies on Drones. But, if you only have one drone (the Command-link), then it should be fine. She's T3, the Drone is T4, and the Riptide is T6, meaning your Riptide stays T6 and can take a lot of damage.

But, like a Herald of Tzeentch, Shadowsun's Command Link has range, and she doesn't need to join the Riptide to be effective. A Buff Commander, does.
Ignores Cover isn't entirely useful for Tau, because they have Markerlights, and stripping cover is totally fine against most armies.

If Shadowsun is working for you. Keep her. Until you're busting out triple Skyrays and/or Hammerheads, Tau don't have a lot of options for anti-armour, and BS5 with dual Fusion Guns works fine.

[Zappit]

If it doesn't say you don't auto-fail on a 1, assume you don't.

Speaking of Codex Marines, I've been toying with the idea of a codex Marines detachment for ages. With the update, that's starting to look like an even better idea for my Space Wolves. However, I'm not sure what HQ and Troops I want, or which Chapter to go with, for that matter.

HQ: Masters of the Forge and Librarians are both decent options, while a Biker Captain unlocks Bikes as troops (Giving me some mobile scoring post drop pod). The bike captain inevitably becomes the most expensive of the three, I imagine, though. Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?

Troops: Tactical Squads are probably a mediocre idea, Grey Hunters being Grey Hunters. That leaves Sniper Scouts and Bikes. Bikes give me mobility and durability, while Scouts are cheap and can man the backfield. Bear in mind my heavy support slot is definately going to a Thunderfire Cannon, so the Scouts can reasonably count on having a 3+ cover save.

Chapters: Fluff-wise, Imperial Fists and Salamanders are the two that most appeal to me. Imperial Fits want bolters and devastators, though, neither of which I have in abundance. As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby. Mechanically, White Scars have some potential for a biker detachment (But that feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly), while Iron Hands give the scouts feel no pain making them mildly more survivable.

So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)? Any corrections, answers, and recommendations?

Salamanders really excel with drop pods. They can come in, strike with twin-linked flamers, (and meltas, if you take Hestan) giving them both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle options. As a detachment, that might hit harder than scouts.

White Scars are hands down the best bikers. Run the captain cheap. Power weapon, artificer armor, and bike. Remember, fast units can swipe an objective in the last turn pretty easily. Ones that have the Hit and Run rule can do it even better.

Iron Hands would probably be the worst small detachment, seeing as how their rules are best exploited with vehicles or Dreadnoughts. That adds up in points quickly. Granted, with a Thunder Hammer, artificer armor, and the Shield Eternal, (and maybe a bike), an IH chapter master becomes a freaking melee nightmare that can take down just about anything. That's pricey, but give him some support, and an excellent complement to a Gunline army.

[Tehnar]

I decided to try Dark Reapers for a bit. This is the base list, and since this is for Vassal I can put in anything:


1500 pts
Farseer, bike
8 Warlocks, bikes

3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon

6 Swooping Hawks, Exarch, Sunrifle
6 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Fast Shot, Rifle

Fire Prism, holofields


Now since I feel Dark Reapers are too vulnerable to be ran without a transport these are my options.


5 Dark Reapers, Starshot (S8 missiles), Exarch, Nightvision, Fast Shot
/w Waveserpent, holofields, scatter, cannon

5 Dark Reapers, Exarch, Nightvision
/w Falcon, holofields, Bright Lance, cannon

4 Dark Reapers, Starshot(S8 missiles), Exarch, Nighvision
/w Falcon, holofields, Bright Lance, cannon


What do you think?

[lord_khaine]

Personaly i have just placed them out of LOS in round 1, then let them move into position when it became their turn. Being relentless is a huge advantage for them, though of course they do need something to hide behind.

But have you considered a Spiritseer to give them conceal instead?
It doesnt bring the firepower that the other options give, but you could use the spare points on more Reapers, and the 2+ cover save would protect them thoughout most of the battle.

[Tehnar]

I can't really guarantee there will be LOS blocking terrain to hide them behind; besides a Waveserpent is great and a Falcon is a solid choice.

A Aegis, Spiritseer and a Icarus is a solid choice as well, for about the same amount of points. I like to keep my list mobile though, so I would prefer to avoid any static elements.

[shadow_archmagi]

But, like a Herald of Tzeentch, Shadowsun's Command Link has range, and she doesn't need to join the Riptide to be effective. A Buff Commander, does.
Ignores Cover isn't entirely useful for Tau, because they have Markerlights, and stripping cover is totally fine against most armies.

If Shadowsun is working for you. Keep her. Until you're busting out triple Skyrays and/or Hammerheads, Tau don't have a lot of options for anti-armour, and BS5 with dual Fusion Guns works fine.

Ah. Excellent point. Looking at 1500 now, I'm thinking of something like this:

Sniper Drone Teams for markerlights
Broadsides for across-the-map vehicle popping.
Fire Warriors for mandatory troops. (Maybe a kroot squad?)
Shadowsun&Crisis Friends hanging around within a foot of a Riptide so it can still reroll 1s.
A barracuda because there's one in the box and sometimes enemies forget to grab something with Skyfire

I feel like that might leave me with too much hammer and not enough anvil though. On the other hand, is there such a thing as too much hammer?

Also, does Outflank work the way I think it does? You can just pop in anywhere along the table edge, including the enemy deployment zone for a free Linebreaker VP?

Also, do things besides secondary objectives award VPs? I thought I remembered each destroyed unit being worth a VP, but I can't find that anywhere.

[Jormengand]

While Rhinos having three Fire Points would be a nice change, it doesn't exist.

Second, Rhinos suck and MSU is dead.

And one bolter, sorry. I care.


Also, does Outflank work the way I think it does? You can just pop in anywhere along the table edge, including the enemy deployment zone for a free Linebreaker VP?

If your unit survives until the end of the game, sure.


Also, do things besides secondary objectives award VPs? I thought I remembered each destroyed unit being worth a VP, but I can't find that anywhere.

The primary objectives give VPs - they depend on which mission you rolled. (Mission 2 is kill things).

[Squark]

And one bolter, sorry. I care.

I assumed you were counting the storm bolter. However... A lone plasmacannon doesn't really syrengize with 3-4 boltgun shots. If you want rhinos, Space Wolves or Chaos Marines are probalby your best bet, since they can get 2 of the same weapon in a single squad in the rhino.

[Jormengand]

A lone plasmacannon doesn't really syrengize with 3-4 boltgun shots.

Plasma cannons have an annoying tendency to leave exactly one enemy marine alive, which is what the bolters are for. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Renegade Paladin]

That right there is what Wheels gets for not taking any tanks. (http://imgur.com/a/V0gND) :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Surprisingly, only 1 of my Black Templar units doesn't convert to the new Codex and that's just because you don't get variable size command squads since the load out is still fine.

Even my Storm Shield techmarine can represent something, even if its no longer something I would actually take.

Depressing thing is that my assault squad now has to be upgraded to Vanguard Veterans in order to keep their Storm shields and are actually cheaper if I do so (for the small cost of ditching the melta bombs).

[Forrestfire]

So I finally got my hands on the Space Marines codex (never had the chance to go pick up my pre-order from my flgs), and I was wondering.

Where did the idea that Techmarines can bolster Aegis lines come from? Is there an exception hidden somewhere in the book or something I missed? :smallconfused:

[shadow_archmagi]

That right there is what Wheels gets for not taking any tanks. (http://imgur.com/a/V0gND) :smalltongue:

Actually, I was just thinking about something similar- Between Kroot, Sniper Drone Teams, Pathfinders, and Shadowsun, it should be possible to form a Tau army that has massive deployment flexibility. I may have to put together an ultimate Mont'ka design. I'm not sure how practical it would be. Is there a name for such designs?

[Cheesegear]

Where did the idea that Techmarines can bolster Aegis lines come from? Is there an exception hidden somewhere in the book or something I missed? :smallconfused:

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

[ZeltArruin]

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

Did they errata the camo cloaks to give stealth rather than and unnamed +1 bonus to cover saves? Because with Telion and cloaks, everyone but him get +2 to cover saves.

[Cheesegear]

Did they errata the camo cloaks to give stealth rather than and unnamed +1 bonus to cover saves? Because with Telion and cloaks, everyone but him get +2 to cover saves.

Telion also has a Cloak.

[ZeltArruin]

Telion also has a Cloak.

Well then, +2 cover saves for all. Telion is an even better upgrade then.

[Forrestfire]

It doesn't.
Bolster Defenses improves terrain, which means pretty much anything. With the specific exemption of things that you have bought as part of your army list. However, Scouts can have Stealth and/or Telion to bring it to 3+ (and everything else to 2+).

Or, if you're one of those groups that's hard up for terrain, and you use Aegis Lines normally as part of every board, well, yes.

:smallredface: Well I severely misread posts in the last thread then. Or it was corrected and resolved and I missed it or something.

[Rakaydos]

Does this thread include discussing army lists? I've been away from the tabletop fer a few months, but I've been toying with a few variations on my lists which might be interestingly... unconventional to discuss.

[Yaktan]

Yes we like to see army lists and give you all sorts of advice.

Anyway, here is a battle report. My first victory!

Armies
Me, Tau

Shadowsun
-command drone

Crisis Team
-Fusion, Plasma, Flamer
-Fusion, Plasma, Flamer
-Fusion, Plasma, VRT
-gun drone

12 Firewarriors
12 Firewarriors
16 kroot
-sniper rounds

6 Gun drones

Skyray


Him, Chaos Marines
Sorcerer
10 Marines, Flamers
10 Marines, Unknown
5 Havocs
Dreadnaught
2 Chaos Spawn

Setup
We got long sides, the scouring. I deployed first. The kroot outflanked. The firewarriors went into a pair of ruins with objectives, but not quite in range of the objectives. The skyray went behind one firewarrior squad and the drones went by the other one.

He put his dreadnaught and sorcerer behind a solid building, one squad of marines next to them, and the havocs on the other side, and the spawn beyond them.

He had the warlord trait to infiltrate some infanty, and he got to go second with that, so I placed shadowsun and the suits behind a small ruin towards the middle of the board. He put his second squad of marines towards the skyray firewarriors.

Turn 1
I got first turn. Shadowsun and co jumped forward and toasted his sorcerer. Score! The skyray also killed one havoc with a seeker missile. Otherwise my shots just bounced off. Shadowsun and co then made a strategic retreat.

His army moved forward with the dreadnaught getting a couple hits on my suits and the marines killing a couple firewarriors by the skyray. The havocs began their game-long streak of ineffectiveness with their shots bouncing off my skyray.

Turn 2
First my kroot arrived and went just where I wanted them, so they were right behind the skyray marines. Then Shadowsun and co moved forward again, but not so far this time, while the gun drones moved up with them. Then the lot of them joined with the firewarriors over there in killing all but two of the squad, while the kroot killed off about half of their marine squad. The skyray popped a pair of havocs and the firewarriors there killed a spawn with rapid fire pulse rifles.

On his turn the dreadnaught moved forward and did some ineffectual shooting. The pair of marines that survied from their squad shot a firewarrior. Also, the other marine squad, with the flamers, turned around and ravaged my kroot. The killed a bunch with the flamers and their guns, then charged them to finish them off. The remaining chaos spawn managed to charge my firewarriors, and lost a wound to overwatch. Then in the combat it got poisoned weapons as its special random ability and eneded up rolling all 3's on its to-wound. Then my firewarriors went all ninja and knocked off another wound punching it in the face.

Turn 3
This time shadowsun and co jumped onto a hill and blasted away at the dreadnaught. One of her minions got a good shot and the dreadnaught blew up. Kaboom!

The skyray killed another couple havocs while the unengaged firewarriors finished off their marines. Then shadowsun and co and the drones all jumped towards the remaining marines. This time the spawn managed to kill a couple firewarriors but they made their save and toughed it out.

His remaining marines went after shadowsun's squad, but did nothing. The spawn and firewarriors went at it and all wiffed.

Turn 4
The skyray missed shooting the last havoc while the unengaged firewarriors moved to claim their objective, which was 4 points. Shadowsun and co almost wiped out the marine squad, just leaving the champion.

The drones charged in to help the firewarriors against the spawn. The drones did nothing against the spawn, but the firewarriors finally managed to punch it in the face and kill it.

At this point we ended since the flgs was closing and I had pretty clearly won.


So, the game was very good. Everything in my army pretty much worked how it was supposed to, blowing his guys into little peices before they could get to close, for the most part. Shadowsun and the suits really pulled their weight. I was amazed at my ninja firewarriors going toe-to-toe with a dedicated assault unit like chaos spawn. The skyray seemed to work quite well, though it was out of missiles at the end. The tricky thing was it was just out of smart missile range, so it was relying on its seeker missiles to kill the havocs, which were the main threat to it. I did get lucky in his havocs getting 1's and 2's on their penetration rolls.

[Cheesegear]

Does this thread include discussing army lists? I've been away from the tabletop fer a few months, but I've been toying with a few variations on my lists which might be interestingly... unconventional to discuss.

You sure can! If you want to provide Fluff for your army as to why it's unconventional or some particular meta-related reason why your army is the way it is, that's even better. Because otherwise, 'unconventional' lists tend to be bad, and you'll get told so. The 'conventional' lists are conventional for a reason.

...Although, that depends heavily on what army you're taking, and we don't know what that is unless you post a list!

[Rakaydos]

I belive this is an 1750 list

Space wolfs/IG Melee Rush list. (HQ deathstar + Support)

Space Wolves:
WarlordHQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Belt of russ, PF+WC, Saga of the Warrior Born, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, Pfist, WTT, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Canis Wolfborn, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, WClaw, WTT, 1 Fenwolf

Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)
Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)

IG:
HQ: CCS, 4 meltaguns, Chimera (hull flamer)

Troop: Platoon
-PCS, 4 flamers, Chimera (hull flamer)
-10 guard (no upgrades)
-10 guard (no upgrades)

FA: 2 Vendetta squadron-I could probably shoehorn in a drop pod with 4 combi meltas in 1850, but I'd lose some of my supporting stuff. And 4 Combimeltas might not be enough to guarantee FB on a vehical (such as a demolisher-siege-shield tank who's name I'm blanking on)

Deployment:
Standard deployment puts the deathstar in the middle, Shield-Lordsright on the edge of the deploymeny zone, the squad's fenwolf companions 2" side/behind them, and Canis and the Warlord in back. The fenwolf squads deploy several rankes at full 2" separation on either side of the deathstar, within Canis's leadership/leadership reroll bubble. Not sure where the chimeras should go- possibly behind the fenwolves, but I'd be missing out on their full flat-out speed unless the wolves maxxed their run. Cover might be worth it though. "Spare" Guardsmen sit in he vendettas- either they drop on arrival to hold a rear objective or they sit in their birds until turn 5 to contest/steal.

Tactics:
Mainly this list is about giving your enemy too much to worry about and not enough time to deal with it. Do you shoot the T5 2+/3++ deathstar moving at bike speeds toward you, or the intimidatingly large squads of 6+ T4? (or in this version, the 12AV front Chimeras with a 5+ cover save- though my older version had a drop pod of combi meltas for alpha strike potential) You only get 1-2 shooting phases to decide before 12" move + fleet (run or charge) gets me in your face, and the vendettas are coming in for fire support just before impact. the deathstar can split in half if need be, the Shield Lords tanking challanges for Canis or the Warlord to wreck the rest of the squad- when the Shieldlords die, the Warlord's invuln and armor is better than Canis's. Also the HQs can choose to join the survivors of a Fenwolf squad if you're willing to drop to T4- more LOS bodies.
I havnt had a chance to expiriment with the Chimeras, but their short ranged weaponry would be good for sofening up enemy deathstars, given a head-to-head confrontation.

[Tehnar]

Before you plan on sweeping everything with your deathstar keep this (http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/08/focus-fire-part-3-when-you-absolutely-positively-gotta-kill-everyone-in-the-room/) in mind.

With proper positioning a smart opponent will get around your 3++ and torch the unit down to a manageable size.

[Darwin]

If anyone in this thread has played Killteam (we are using the ruleset from here: http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.dk/p/kill-team-rules.html) I could use some advice on how to get back on my feet in the campaign after having suffered major losses to my roster.
I'm playing a chaos warband and after 2 games I've lost my Obliterator and 2 Marines, having only regained 60 of 100 points lost and my opponents are either still at their original 250 or managed to get ahead without suffering any casulties.

While the remainder of my army has recieved a few small upgrades from experience, I'm severely behind in points. After my last game I have 30 points to spend, where would those points best be spent?

[Kosall]

Taking a list from Cheese I'm going to play this in a tournament coming up in Late October. It seems to be the standard flavor of the month Space Marine build. I will be mostly seeing other lists like this one + the assorted Eldar, Tau, Taudar and Eldau. I'm not really familiar with the meta in the city I'll be traveling to, but I can comfortably assume it will match mine since we aren't all that far apart.

The questions I have revolve around whether it would be better to drop the libby + scouts for something else (Allies or otherwise)? Or maybe drop some of these OP cannons for some other Heavy Support?

Argent Hawks (Why yes it is based on an 80s cartoon from the US, why do you ask?)
White Scars Chapter Tactics
Kor'Sarro; Moondrakkan (On Loan) - 150 Points
Librarian; Mastery 2, Bike - 125 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Scouts (x5), x5 Sniper Rifles, x5 Camo Cloaks; 75 points
Scouts (x10), x1 Missile Launcher, x9 Sniper Rifles, x10 Camo Cloaks; 154 points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

[Forrestfire]

If anything, I think you'd be better off grabbing a DA librarian and 5 man scout squad, for prescience.

[Gryffon]

Does anyone on this thread listen to the 11th Company podcast and/or plan on attending the tournament they hold in November? Just curious as I'm a local in the area they hold it in.

[LeSwordfish]

So, having looked through the Farsight Enclaves book, i have a handful of opinions on it- what do other people think.


You'll miss Shadowsun, but you can still take ethereals.
Crisis suits can't carry an entire game as troops - 3 suits is approximately six assault marines, with all the problems implicit in that. All your opponent need do is keep an objective out of cover for it to be very hard to take.
You CAN, however, take Kroot. Kroot don't need bonding knives. If you've got an army of suits and kroot, you can give those suits "Scoring" for probably less than 10 points, total.
Fire warriors DO need bonding knives, meaning that the more Fire warriors and Pathfinders you have, the more this army is a tax.
The Eight, farsight's bomb given individual rules, vary a bunch. Some are fairly close to what you'd be wanting in a commander anyway. Some are bad. The inability to augument their wargear (at ALL, as well as the restrictions later) means that you'll really miss the lack of drones/iridium/PENchips/whatever. It's also unclear if you can even take them individually. 9/10 times, a custom commander will be better and cheaper. You don't NEED to take any of them, or farsight. So don't, really.
That said, a riptide as warlord is pretty hot. In theory you can even take three elites riptides
The specialist wargear is largely dross. The Mirrorcodex (+1 to StI, chance of Preferred Enemy) might be nice, as might the Warscaper drone. Neither is essential, and IIRC nor is any of the others.


Overall, if you want a fluffy all-suits army, it's a codex worth taking. (The bonding knives are a tax, yes, but they'll come out to ~30pts or less in an all-suits army.)

If you want 9 scoring suits plus sixty kroot, it's DEFINITELY worth taking. In that case, all you lose is the signature systems. It's certainly worth considering as an allied formation- if you have a commander, an ethereal, and a half-dozen suits, you can take the ethereal and the suits as an allied force, and make the suits scoring for six points.

[Cheesegear]

Does anyone on this thread listen to the 11th Company podcast and/or plan on attending the tournament they hold in November?

I listen. But, since I live in Australia, I hardly think I'll be going to their tournament. :smallwink:

[Rakaydos]

Before you plan on sweeping everything with your deathstar keep this (http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/08/focus-fire-part-3-when-you-absolutely-positively-gotta-kill-everyone-in-the-room/) in mind.

With proper positioning a smart opponent will get around your 3++ and torch the unit down to a manageable size.

With two shieldlords to cover a broad front and Fenwolves covering (and filing) the flanks, the only real threat of the combat lords being outflanked is the classic DS suicide melta team, which can be look-out-sir'd to the fenwolf escorts before they're outran.

A full drop pod army is more of a threat, of course, but also more of an opportunity, in that with a more defensive deployment, you can use cover and still expect most of his army to simply drop in your lap.

[Gryffon]

I listen. But, since I live in Australia, I hardly think I'll be going to their tournament. :smallwink:

If you decided you wanted to, I would gladly offer you a place to stay just for a chance to see you play, heh. Though the cost in getting here is probably far worse than the cost to stay here.

[shadow_archmagi]

Finally got a chance to play against my friend's necrons.

Quantum Shielding is horrific. By turn two I had almost nothing capable of penetrating his transports, so his necrons (and those doomsday guns!!!) just flew around being completely invincible at all times forever.

[Ishikar]

Argent Hawks (Why yes it is based on an 80s cartoon from the US, why do you ask?)
White Scars Chapter Tactics
Kor'Sarro; Moondrakkan (On Loan) - 150 Points
Librarian; Mastery 2, Bike - 125 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); Grav-Gun, Melta-Gun, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 179 Points
Bikes (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Grav Pistol, Attack Bike, Melta; 184 Points
Scouts (x5), x5 Sniper Rifles, x5 Camo Cloaks; 75 points
Scouts (x10), x1 Missile Launcher, x9 Sniper Rifles, x10 Camo Cloaks; 154 points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Stormtalon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher; 125 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points


First thoughts when I look at your list is that it is a LOT of grav weapons. I know bikes have bolters built in which will help against kroot and guard models but I think you may hit some issues with demons, and you're sinking a LOT of points on grav pistols which could be used on bodies. You have good melta coverage for anti-vehicle but I'd look at maybe swapping out some grav weapons for plasma (probably in your grav/melta squads) just so things like Chaos Spawn and nurgle demons lose out a bit on their high toughness ratings and reliance on invul saves. I'd probably drop the librarian as well unless you've got a known issue where you'll need psychic defense since most models in the current meta use powers for buffs rather than damage/debuff (unless you have Tzeentch around, denying flickering fire is fun).

Thunderfire cannons are really good but you'll be paying for 3 techmarines in their cost when you've only really got 2 units to hold terrain (combat squadding scouts is iffy, a flame weapon can kill 5 of them too easily). I'd probably cash your libby and a cannon in for a vindicator to hit hard targets and to potentially ID bikes/juggalords. Scouts are good because if you have an terrain higher than 3 inches it still gives you a model to capture/hold it (don't forget bikes CANNOT go up levels in buildings, plan your shooting accordingly).

As it stands now I'd have to evaluate as follows:

Pros
- Mobile
- Survivable
- Good anti-vehicle/AP 2 coverage
- Good Troop saturation

Cons
- Potential issues with low armor hordes with invul/cover boosters)
- Low Model Count
- Vulnerable to low AP fire concentration
- Vulnerable to poison weapons

The most problematic builds I see this facing is:
Nurgle Demons - High T low Armor with invul means these demons are ignoring your Grav and bolters have a harder time making up the slack. T6 spawn will tie your bikes up if caught (and there's a good chance of that) and the beasts can really hurt.

Farsight Bomb - The farsight bomb is meant to be a unit to surgically remove units on an alpha strike. It's fairly gimmicky for most lists with the expansion of larger infantry blobs over MSU in boxes but MSU bikes look to loose 2-3 squads depending on position/spacing. Plasma heavy crisis will also cause the same problem and the bomb can cover a surprisingly large area for board control. The Vindicator is useful for area denial and potential cleanup against this list. Thunderfires CAN help but T4/3+/2W suits are still resilient enough to shrug off a good portion of that firepower (4-5 hits per shot, 4+ to wound, 3+ save means roughly 1 suit per cannon by quick math-hammering).

Chaos - Triple drakes will hurt but that's like saying "water is wet" by this point. Chaos hounds with a Juggalord/Nurgle bikelord also make picking of the assault threat much more difficult.

Eldar - Serpents will punish your scouts/cannons fairly quickly but grav really shuts them down with lucky rolls (current rulings dictate 2 6's will kill a serpent). Don't forget that if you do immobilize the tank it looses Jink against any further units that turn. In the long run I'd give this a fairly even matchup and I'd be interested in seeing it play out. The biggest variable is if his farseers get their powers or not.

All in all I think it's a good start to a list but I'd look at adding bodies where I could. The Librarian may be fluffy but without divination he really doesn't add much to the list (Telepathy MAY help with a few models (i.e. riptides) but plas/grav does nearly as well and without the risk of psychic tests/deny the witch).

[Wraith]

So, I've finally gotten around to updating my 'usual' lists with the new Codex: Space Marines, and - as well as a delightful points reduction in my existing units - I've decided to drop the Assault Squad from my Black Templars.

As I like to play at a round 2000pts, the cuts mean that I am delighted to announce that I have 180pts left over to play with. What does the Playground think would be a good way to round out the Sons of Sigismund?

HQ: Chaplain
+ Terminator Armour
+ Combi-melta
+ Meltabombs
+ The Shield Eternal

HQ: Emperor's Champion

TROOP: 10x Crusader Squad
+ CCW & Bolt Pistols
+ Sword Brother
+ Melta Bombs

TROOP: 10x Crusader Squad
+ CCW & Bolt Pistols
+ Sword Brother
+ Melta Bombs
+ Land Raider Crusader

TROOP: 10x Crusader Squad
+ CCW & Bolt Pistols
+ Sword Brother
+ Melta Bombs
+ Land Raider Crusader

HEAVY: Land Raider

HEAVY: Predator ("Annihilator")
+ Lascannon Turret
+ Lascannon Sponsons

HEAVY: Predator ("Annihilator")
+ Lascannon Turret
+ Lascannon Sponsons

I like Land Raiders. :smallbiggrin:

I'm very keen to keep the Chaplain as my HQ since they're decent fighters, relatively cheap and adore the BT Chaplain-Terminator model, but I think I can possibly do without the Shield if I have to.
If I *do* drop that, I have enough left over for a squad of five Sternguard with Combimeltas, in a Drop Pod. I also like Sternguard. :smallwink: Anyone have any better ideas?

[Renegade Paladin]

So, since I haven't had a chance to open the book yet, I'll ask my usual Marine codex release question: Does the codex contain any way to make Terminators into Troops, in an allied detachment or otherwise?

[Alex Knight]

A purely fluff list for perusal. 2,002 points.

Phaeron Jayzen of the Sukethanem Dynasty

HQ

Necron Overlord (Jayzen)
Phaeron, Warscythe, Sempiternal Weave, Phase Shifter, Ressurection Orb

Transport:
Catacomb Command Barge


Elites

3x Triarch Stalkers


Troops

2 Units of 10x Warriors each, 1 Unit of 9x Warriors.

Transport: 3x Ghost Arks


Fast Attack

1 Unit of 6x Wraiths

1 Unit of 10x Scarabs


Heavy

3 Units of 1x Canoptek Spyder each. Each Spyder has the Fabricator Claw upgrade


The Sukethanem Dynasty has no Lychguard, and will not tolerate Destroyers. Warriors must be deployed with Ghost Ark support, and the Phaeron has given his Immortals to his consort's command. Because of the Dynasty's unusual sensitivity to actual troop losses, they make heavy use of Canoptek machines and the single C'tan shard held in a torturous prison by Consort Kahme.

[Rakaydos]

So, since I haven't had a chance to open the book yet, I'll ask my usual Marine codex release question: Does the codex contain any way to make Terminators into Troops, in an allied detachment or otherwise?

No, but... hmmm.

An allied Calgar can bring 3 drop pods full of 10 guys each, in Artificer armor, without taking ANY slot except your allied HQ.

Take a couple minimum tacticals with pods to bring all three Honor Guards in turn 1...

[Renegade Paladin]

No, but... hmmm.

An allied Calgar can bring 3 drop pods full of 10 guys each, in Artificer armor, without taking ANY slot except your allied HQ.

Take a couple minimum tacticals with pods to bring all three Honor Guards in turn 1...
While that would be hilarious, I have a bunch of Terminator models that I came into by chance which I'd like to use at some point, so it doesn't help my specific problem. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Codex: Space Marines
The Adeptus Astartes

Special Rules
Combat Squads: With very few Missions requiring Kill Points, getting double the amount of units per FOC slot is nothing short of quite good. If, you're ever in a position where playing multiple small units of Marines would end badly for you (i.e; AP3 Blast/Templates, Kill Point Missions, etc.), you can just keep your units of ten. For this reason - and this reason alone - it's really hard to justify why you would ever have less than 10 Infantry models per squad that have this rule.

Warlord Traits:
1. NOBODY CARES ABOUT FEAR! STOP TRYING TO PUT IT IN THE GAME GW! :smallfurious:
2. It would be better if it was permanent. Especially on units with Hit & Run. Since it's only One Use. Blergh.
3. You get to cast Prescience once per game. Seriously. That's what it is.
4. Probably the most useful Trait. But it's random.
5. Not great. Usable. But not great.
6. Ew. It's really hard to get it to work. But when it does...It's random. While it's rare that you'll ever actually get to use it as it's intended, it will dictate what your opponent can and can't do with their Warlord. And that, can actually make or break the game more than an extra few VPs could.

Chapter Tactics - and Special Characters
During list creation, you must choose what Chapter you're playing. And, before you jump the gun, come up with a random paint scheme and play 'All The Chapters', be aware that not all Chapters are conducive to fielding all models. You're actually seriously - seriously - better off picking a Chapter you like and building them, and then Allying in another Marine Chapter. Rather than trying to switch and swap every other game. Or, you can just paint the scheme you like and swap the shoulder rims to the colour of the Company that you think would use the Chapter Tactics that you need.
i.e; In a Codex Chapter, the 4th Company Captain is titled 'Master of the Fleet', and this Company are the guys that travel around in Space and therefore use Drop Pods a lot. Their shoulder rims are Green. Guess which army likes Drop Pods and is normally Green; The Salamanders! This makes absolute sense to do this, if you want to play Salamanders but don't like Green as your Chapter's primary colour.

Speaking of Allies. Yes. You can Ally within your own Codex. But, only if you use different Chapters. If you play 2000+ Points with multiple FOCs you're probably not going to notice the difference. But, yes. Being Battle Brothers with yourself is quite good for giving different Chapters different Chapter Tactics.
i.e; Using a White Scar Independent Character to give your Black Templar Crusader Squads Hit & Run.

Ultramarines
You have three turns - over the game - to make your army's proverbial magic happen. Tactical Doctrine is usually good on turn 3 or 4 when your army is typically in position to start doing a lot of Rapid Firing, or, if you need your Plasma to do stuff, or you're about to use your Gets Hot! ammo on your Sternguard. Assault Doctrine doesn't help you a whole lot, probably it's biggest draw is Jump-Fleet Infantry. Unfortunately, leaving your Jump Packs on your Assault Marines isn't exactly the best thing you can do with that unit. Devastator Doctrine is especially good on the turn that your opponent's Fliers come onto the board. Overall, there's nothing exceptional about Ultramarines' Tactics. Essentially, your goal is to put a Battle Company on the board. But, Ultramarines do have some really good Special Characters, and that's what you're really looking at.

Marneus Calgar: He has a 2+ save and can Sweeping Advance, he has AP2 weapons, and can switch over to his at-Initiative weapon if he needs to, and he's got Eternal Warrior. As far as Warlords go, he's solid. But we're not done. He rolls 3 times on the Warlord Traits table (RAW: Given the specific page reference, it seems he can only roll on the Space Marine Traits), but, unlike Asurmen, he can only pick one of them. This may make up for the fact that you can re-roll and you always get 3 rolls. Unlike Asurmen who is random and more random. The Armour of Antilochus is 10 Points to give him a Teleport Homer and to make him Relentless for his Orbital Bombardment (see; Chapter Master entry), and, he gives the ability for Ultramarines to choose to fail Morale checks, which, coupled with ...And They Shall Know No Fear is far more useful than you think it is. That's about it. He's really good. But he's also really expensive.
Triple Honour Guard is just too expensive to be useful. Feel free to ignore that box.

Captain Sicarius: 'The Everyman'. He has one of the not-good Warlord Traits, but, he also has #4 on permanently, and for every Ultramarine on the board, which is useful. He's decent, but you can make a better Captain of your own. He does a lot of things. But, he doesn't do any of them particularly well.

Chief Librarian Tigurius: Brilliant. He's the only Mastery Level 3 Psyker in the book. He can choose from any Discipline - even though you'll only ever choose from Divination or Telepathy, and rarely Telekinesis - and can re-roll his Powers to further get the Powers that you really want. Furthermore, he can re-roll his Psychic Tests, which means that he'll rarely suffer from Perils of the Warp, and he has a defense against Tyranids' Shadow of the Warp which normally doesn't do nice things to regular Psykers. And then, you can re-roll Reserves. If you're playing Ultramarines, you need a really good reason not to take Tigurius. He's really that good. His Warlord Trait is also good!

Chaplain Cassius: Crap Warlord Trait. But arguably the best Chaplain in the book. If, for whatever reason you need to bring a Chaplain, bring Cassius instead of whatever you thought was a good idea.

Sergeant Telion: BS6 Troops model? Hellooo Icarus Lascannon! Oh, right. Pay 50 Points to give your entire Scout Squad Stealth (another tick for an Aegis). He's quite good when you set him up right, because he should have a 2+ Cover Save all the time, and his Scouts with him should have 3+ Cover Save from Stealth. Well, don't go out and immediately buy Ultramarine Scouts. But, if you are going to do that, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't pick up Telion.

Sergeant Chronus: For 50 Points, you can turn one of your Tanks into an Iron Hands' Tank with BS5 with better-than-Extra Armour. Not too shabby. Put him in a Predator, Hunter, Stalker, Land Raider or LR Crusader. If you've got 50 Points at the end of your list and you have a decent Tank in your list...It's Sergeant Telion or Chronus. They're both good, but neither are required.

White Scars
All Bike units in your army gain Skilled Rider, except they don't. Which means that Skilled Rider will stack on the extra Jink save, if you can figure out a way to make that happen (i.e; Battle Brother in Sammael from Dark Angels). Furthermore, everybody in your army not Terminators or Centurions gains Hit & Run which means that your Space Marines in Assault can get out of where they aren't too good.

Kor'Sarro Kahn: All friendly White Scars which are Bikes or that have Dedicated Transports gain Scouts - even Terminators and Centurions. If you can't afford Bikes, it doesn't matter; If you bring Kor'Sarro, you can still get a functional army out of White Scars, and a not too shabby one either, especially when you factor in that you also still have Hit & Run. Scouting Assault Marines with H&R are really good.
Kor'Sarro has a decent Warlord Trait, especially when paired with Moonfang that causes Instant Death, just look out with enemy Warlords with a 2+ save (which will be a lot of them...So...Yeah).
If you're playing White Scars, you're bringing Kor'Sarro. On a Bike, on Foot. It doesn't matter. He gives everything that matters Scout. He's just really good.

Imperial Fists
Bring Boltguns and Devastators, and Centurion Devastators. It's not that difficult a concept to understand. Who have Boltguns en masse? Tactical Squads and Scouts, in a pinch, you can bring Terminators. Unfortunately, Sternguard are specifically exempt from this rule unless they fire as regular Boltguns - and what's the point? Imperial Fists make both of your standard Troops choices really aggressive. While you can bring Bikes, they're Twin-Linked anyway. If you actually do go out of your way to put in Devastators into your list, you'll find that Imperial Fists are a much better fit for your army than Ultramarines if you aren't bringing Tigurius to throw out Prescience. So, yeah. Be Imperial Fists if you like your Troops units that aren't Bikes.

Captain Lysander: It's hard to see where this guy fits. With The Shield Eternal and Salamanders gaining a Master-Crafted weapon for free, or Iron Hands giving IWND, it's hard to understand why Lysander costs so much?
You're paying 55 Points for an extra Wound, a S10, AP1 Thunder Hammer and the nova to re-roll Morale Checks. Given that you're guaranteed Champion of Humanity, and that you don't want to be paying extra points for Veteran Sergeants; Is Lysander worth it? ...Tentative yes.

Pedro Kantor: RAW: Even though Pedro Kantor is an Imperial Fist, his special rules indicate a Crimson Fist Detachment, and, the reference on page 158 clearly indicates that because Kantor's Chapter icon is different to Lysander's, they are actually different Chapters, even if Kantor does technically count as having Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists).
Second, Dorn's Arrow is not a 'Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Storm Bolter or Heavy Bolter'. It does not re-roll 1s To Hit - neither do Sternguard.
So, what does Kantor do? He makes Sternguard Scoring. And Sternguard are actually kind of good. Second, he is the best way to use Honour Guard, which aren't even that bad. So, if you want to use Sternguard en masse (it's not a bad choice), or, if you're thinking about actually using Honour Guard (again, not a bad choice) or just playing Imperial Fists at all, bring Kantor.

Black Templars
Your Characters get Prescience and Rending when in a Challenge...So, if your opponent refuses the Challenge, or, there is simply no-one to Challenge, your Characters do what? Go easy on their enemies? The nullified aspect of this wont come up too often, but, when it does, it's super-annoying.
Also, all your models get Crusader and Adamantium Will. The former is okay, but the latter is to make up for the fact that you aren't allowed to have Librarians - but you can Ally them in.

High Marshal Helbrecht: Once per game he can give your whole army Fleet, and then, using his Warlord Trait, he gives his unit Furious Charge for a single turn of dominance. Other than that though? Maybe if you bring Honour Guard he'll actually be useful. Why is he so expensive? You're paying a lot of points for one turn.
RAW: Helbrecht does not count as a Chapter Master. If you want to abuse this, then do so. You should.

Chaplain Grimaldus: He's slightly better than Helbrecht for the slower Templars on foot or for Black Tides. Due to his selection of buffs that he throws out, it's hard to imagine how any Black Templars army could be successful without him. ...Or just bring Bike Templars. That works too. But 'Bring Bikes' is a copout in 6th Edition, so, I'll try not to use that one too often.

The Emperor's Champion: He's Fearless. But that's about it. But, Fearless is why you want him because you can't make a Chaplain better than EC. Unfortunately, his stances (and Black Templar-ness) only work in Challenges and when he's not fighting in a Challenge he's kind of weak which doesn't make any real sense. I suppose it makes sense if a Marine could 'forget' how to fight multiple foes...But, that doesn't happen so WTF?

Crusader Squads: Straight off the bat you'll notice that you can take 5-man squads with Special and Heavy weapon, and that's pretty good. Unfortunately, without spending points to grab the Sword Brother, you're missing out on the point of Black Templars. But who cares? 5-man teams with dual weapons, right? Also, you can take Land Raider Crusaders as Transports, which is helpful when you've filled your Heavy slots with not-Land Raiders and still want to bring Land Raider walls. Take big squads if you want to make it to Assault and actually matter.

Iron Hands
Everyone gets FNP (6+). That's really underwhelming. You'll save one model or one wound out of 6. That's it. Then all your Characters get It Will Not Die which is similarly underwhelming because nearly all your Characters only have one Wound, with the exception of HQ models and Centurion Sergeants.
Then, all your vehicles get IWND too. The only Chapter that has its Tactics work on vehicles! Unfortunately, like on Character, IWND on vehicles only works when you're not Destroyed. IWND doesn't stop Penetrating Hits from doing anything. Which means that you want the most armour possible, with the most number of Hull Points - Land Raiders. And then your Forgemasters and Techmarines can fix vehicles slightly easier. But, like IWND, Techmarines can't fix what is actually broken.

Salamanders
You can re-roll your Saving Throws vs. Flame-based weapons, as defined in the Rulebook. So, if it's a 'fire-based' weapon that's not in the rulebook - say, like, a Baleflamer - you don't get your re-roll. Then, in addition, all Salamanders who have those same weapons are Twin-Linked. Combi-Flamers for everyone! It's nice. But it wont win you the game.
But, then all of your Characters get a Master-Crafted weapon for free! And yes! You can Master-Craft the Relic Weapons. This is actually really good way better than giving your one-Wound Characters IWND, yeah, that's really helpful :smallyuk:.

Vulkan He'Stan: Artificer Armour? Check. Relic Blade? Check. Storm Shield? Check. He'Stan has brought all the gear that a decent Captain should have. But then he goes and puts a Twin-Linked (Salamanders, remember?) Heavy Flamer, and then Master-Crafts all of your Melta weapons. Since this is independent to Chapter Tactics, this includes the Melta weapons on vehicles, too. And, since you're Master-Crafting Combi-Meltas, some of your other Characters can then use their 'free' Master-Craft on their Chainsword to be better in combat, since he'll lose an attack for bringing a Combi-Weapon. He'Stan, himself, can Master-Craft his Bolt Pistol - not that he'll ever use it.
Bring Sternguard and Command Squads with a lot of Combi-Weapons. Make sure you give the Sergeant - Character - a weapon that isn't a Combi-Melta or Flamer (like a Combi-Grav or -Plasma) so he can Master-Craft it anyway.
RAW: Because Special Issue Ammunition is firing instead of their normal profile, Sternguard with Combi-Meltas will not have Master-Crafted SIA. But, if for some reason you want to shoot the Combi-Meltas as Boltguns, then you will get the bonus shots.

Raven Guard
Everyone in your army that doesn't have a Jump Pack, Bike or Terminator Armour, or Centurions, gain Scout. So, that's really good if you want to play non-Bike White Scars and don't want to pay the points for Kor'Sarro. And, those same units gain Stealth during the first game turn only - this is kind of dumb since Night Fight exists and you'd get it anyway. But, otherwise, an entire army with Scout is nice.
But, then you've got another bonus to Jump Infantry which makes them twice as fast (this is to make up for not getting Scout, I assume).
Ultimately, Raven Guard have the worst Chapter Tactics if you aren't specifically playing for it. This is the ultimate CT that you can't just decide to play your army as Raven Guard today because it's just not going to work.

Shadow Captain Shrike: Don't play Raven Guard without him. If you have to play Raven Guard at all. Even though he's Jump Infantry, he has Stealth. But, instead of Scout, he has Infiltrate which he then passes on to any unit of Jump Infantry that he's joined - which is only going to be Assault Squads or Vanguard, and then he also has a pair of Master-Crafted Lightning Claws that Rend. Shrike isn't exactly good. But he's not exactly unusable either.

HQ
Chapter Master: With four Wounds and four Attacks - as well as the lack of any good ranged weapons - this guy is a clear beatstick. Rush him forwards as fast as you can, in a Land Raider, Stormraven or Drop Pod, this guy should be in the centre of every fight and winning.

Relic Blade / Teeth of Terra; Cheap.
Storm Shield / The Shield Eternal; Always bring a Storm Shield, but, with extra Wounds, Eternal Warrior is great on this guy.
Artificer Armour; Always take.
Thunder Hammer; With Shield Eternal, this guy will put the serious hurt on pretty much anything.
The Burning Blade; It's expensive, and, you can end up doing yourself some damage which isn't great.

Jump Pack / Space Marine Bike; The Jump Pack lets hit climb stairs and ladders, and the Bike gives him move speed, better Toughness and makes Bike Squads Troops. The Bike also gives Relentless so you can shoot your Orbital when you move.

Honour Guard: Two attacks each. 2+ Save. As well as the option for a few Relic Blades. Not great for the most part. But, if you know your meta, the ability to equip Axes or Maces will allow you to roll your enemies in nearly every game. Must have a Drop Pod or Land Raider.

Captain: Cheaper than Chapter Master, lacks the wounds and attacks and the Orbital. There's only one reason not to take a Captain, and that's if you're taking a Chapter Master instead.

Storm Shield / The Shield Eternal; In contrast to the Chapter Master, the Captain has less Wounds and less base attacks, making the expensive Shield Eternal less effective than it could be.

Artificer Armour
Relic Blade / Teeth of Terra; The Rampage ability gives your Captain even more attacks.
Jump Pack / Space Marine Bike; Always have one of these two, unless in a Drop Pod or Land Raider.

Power Axe & Power Maul
Lightning Claw and Power Fist; Two variants of the same concept. However, bringing a Storm Shield as well is missing the point. Which makes this early-6th Ed. build is a lot less effective because of the Relic Weapons.

Command Squad: The main goal of this unit is to have a 3++ and/or FNP. If you don't have or can't build that, don't bother. The Vanguard box is a huge step in the right direction. These guys arguably fill the same role as Sternguard or Vanguard, without achieving anything close to the same effectiveness as actually taking one of those units. If you want to build a Command Squad, check out Sternguard and Vanguard sections in Elites. The main limitation of the Command Squad, is that you have to take a Captain, rather than a Chapter Master.

Space Marine Bikes; Putting FNP on a T5 unit with 3++ becomes a real threat that armies that aren't Space Marine variants or Imperial Guard can have real trouble dislodging.

Terminator Captain: Next.

Librarian: A tough sell. Doesn't have access to Divination, can't reliably get Powers that you actually want, and doesn't quite do what a Chapter Master/Captain with The Shield Eternal (gives Adamantium Will, remember?) couldn't do. If you aren't already playing Ultramarines and auto-taking Tigurius...Probably Battle-Brother in Tigurius or a Tau Buff Commander or any other non-Codex Marine variant that does have access to Divination.

Jump Pack
Space Marine Bike
Terminator Armour & Storm Shield
The Armour Indomitus; Take one of the above.

Chaplain: Against models with a 4+ or worse save, the Zealot buff that a Chaplain provides is slightly more useful than having a Chapter Master with Thunder Hammer in the same squad. Against everything else, your unit turns into a Chapter Master Delivery System. If you know your meta, a Chaplain can be useful. But, a Chapter Master is going to be more useful, more often.
If you need to make a unit Fearless (such as a Death Star), including a Chaplain is never a bad idea.

Master of the Forge: His only real use is to spam Ironclad Dreadnoughts.
Conversion Beamer & Bike; Not only are you dropping your extra attacks for a Conversion Beamer that you don't need, but you're now really expensive for a model that is basically just a tax.

Techmarine: No. If they were Independent Characters...Well...Still no.

Servitors: Ablative wounds for your Techmarine Master of the Forge, so you don't give up your Slay the Warlord on your tax model, as well as a really cheap way to add Plasma Cannons to your gun line.

Troops
Tactical Squad: Yes. Just bring them. Always bring them in squads of 10. If you have extra points at the end of your list, Veteran Sergeants on your Troops units should always be a consideration when you're weighing what to take other than spamming Melta Bombs. Your Heavy weapon favourites should be; Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher (+/- Flakk Missiles) or Lascannon. Your Veteran/Sergeant can pick up a Combi-weapon of your choice and maybe even Melta Bombs if you still have spare points for some reason.
Drop Pods are your friend.

Scout Squad: You always want at least one unit of Scouts. Either as Infiltrators to block opposing Infiltrators and Scout moves, or to get into a good position early, or, as a cheap backline Scoring squad. Scouts are just so cheap that it's just silly not to take one unit of them.
Camo Cloaks; Only for use on Objective campers.
Shotguns; Get your head out of 5th Ed. Keep your Boltguns instead.
Combat Blades; You need something on the order or 40+ Scouts to make this anywhere near close to being effective. But, if you really, really want to...Go ahead.
Sniper Rifles; Large squads of 10 will bring the pain. Even if it does cost a little extra points.

Land Speeder Storm: A 55 Point Boltgun team in a Storm with a Heavy Flamer is surprisingly effective and catches a lot of opponents off-guard. However, during Deployment, don't forget that its Jamming Beacon will absolutely ruin Deep Striking Melta teams. Finally - and most importantly - don't forget about the Large Blast, Blind-causing Cerebrus Launcher, it ruins Tau and Necrons and provides a neat little ace in the hole against everything else.

Elites
Vanguard Veteran Squad: Raven Guard only, really. A unit of Honour Guard in a Drop Pod is just going to be better.

Sternguard Veteran Squad: Your Swiss army knife unit. Is useful against any opponent, even if you do mess up your wargear options, the amount of redundancy built into the squad just makes these guys really, really good. Just really, really good. Always have one unit in a Drop Pod. Every Space Marine army should have at least one Drop Pod in their army, and these boys are 90% likely to be unit that you're going to use.
x4 Combi-Meltas, x4 Combi-Gravs/Combi-Plasmas, x2 Heavy Flamers + Drop Pod is your optimal load-out. Scale down to suit. If you know your meta, you can wreak absolute havoc, because like Honour Guard, Sternguard are simply that customisable. Not to mention that with Combat Squad out of a Drop Pod or Stormraven for extra firepower...I'll stop. Just take Sternguard. Even a unit of 8 with a pair of Lascannons behind an Aegis as a 'pillbox' is fairly scary.

If you want to take more than one unit (not counting Combat Squads) you. Are. Taking. Pedro Kantor. Sternguard in Drop Pods and Devastators and Thunderfires in the back.

Dreadnought Venerable Dreadnought: Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod is a cheap alternative to your Sternguard (especially if Salamanders). Your other choice is a Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher.

Ironclad Dreadnought: One of the few Walkers in the game that are actually any good. The Ironclad does not have a Storm Bolter. It has a Heavy Flamer and is 145 Points base. Fact. With double Hunter-Killers and a Meltagun, an Ironclad is a scary opponent to most vehicles. If you need a Drop Pod and aren't bringing Sternguard, an Ironclad is a close second-choice for Drop Pod units. Even better if used by Iron Hands.

Legion of the Damned: These guys make Thousand Sons look like a joke. AP5, Ignores Cover is far, far, far more useful than AP3. And 3++ is better than 4++. Obviously. If you aren't taking Sternguard, you need a really, really, really good reason not to bring LotD to substitute in. Not only are the models awesome, but, Plasma Gun & Plasma Cannon that Ignore Cover are 'Space Marine Heldrakes', except better. The only downside to this unit is that it must always Deep Strike, but, you can re-roll the Scatter dice for awesome times. If you're ever thinking about taking an even number of Drop Pods, don't. Lose the last Pod and bring LotD instead.

Terminator & Terminator Assault Squads: I'll bunch these two together because they function practically the same. GW still thinks that units of 2+ are actually scary, and have therefore priced them under that fallacy. Only Character models with 2+ Saves are any good because they can Challenge and Look Out, Sir! to avoid taking unnecessary damage. But, a unit? Most 2+ units get hit by AP2, Large Blast weapons, or get thrown under the Monstrous Creature bus. The only way that Terminators work is by fielding a Land Raider to go with them. And that's even more expensive.

Centurion Assault Squad: Only use is as a cheaper source of Land Raiders than Terminators, which you lose if you take up to two Meltaguns, which you should.

Fast Attack
Assault Squad: No. Vanguard are better, even though they cost more points. The math works out. Unfortunately, the Elites section is so cluttered that it's hard to take Vanguard. But, you're not going to not have that in Fast Attack. So, in a nutshell, the only Assault unit in this Codex worth a damn are Crusader Squads and Honour Guard, which means you're playing Black Templars.

Land Speeders: Only use is Multi-Meltas with Vulkan He'Stan. Otherwise ignore.

Stormtalon Gunship: An amazing Flier. Due to the model specs, don't forget that the Assault Cannon actually counts as a turret. Fly over a vehicle, and Twin-Linked Assault Cannon said vehicle in the Rear Armour. Unfortunately, you lose the ability to fire your fixed arc other weapon;
Skyhammer; Cheap and decent.
Twin-Linked Lascannon; Another good choice if you don't have it elsewhere.
Typhoon Missile Launcher; Expensive is bad. But it still isn't as bad as it otherwise could be.

Bike Squads: If you aren't taking these as Troops, then should be bringing at least one unit of Bikes with Grav-Guns anyway just to obliterate enemy armoured units. If you're using them as Troops...Well, just keep doing that, but more. No matter what kind of list you're running, it's hard to justify not including at least unit of Bikes because Bikes (and Jetbikes) are the best Unit Type in the game (followed closely by Flying Monstrous Creatures). If you want to bring an Attack Bike, always bring a Multi-Melta (unless you're Imperial Fists, at which point your meta dictates what you're bringing).

Attack Bike Squads: If you're taking any, you're taking three, and they all have Multi-Meltas (exception is Imperial Fists).

Scout Bike Squads: Nope. There's no point. Yes, you can have a minimum unit with a Locator Beacon, but no. That's not worth it either.

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad: Rarely, do you need more than one unit.
Plasma Cannons, Missile Launchers and Lascannons. Go team. If you're playing Imperial Fists, give these guys Flakk Missiles and put them behind a Quad-Gun and you have Flier Defence covered. Remember to put a few extra bodies in the unit just for ablative wounds, and, for the odd Big Guns game (which is normally a staple for most tournaments).

Centurion Devastator Squad: You never need more than one unit.
Grav-Cannon; Always take.
Missile Launchers; Take Devastators instead.
Twin-Linked Lascannons; You know what a Land Raider is, right?

Thunderfire Cannon: Always bring one! Two! Three! They're amazing! Just, absolutely yes. Barrage is good for Character sniping and it clears out hordes really well.

Predator: Only reason to use one is if you have one. It's fine. But hardly an optimal choice. Autocannon & Lascannon Sponsons is the only weapons you should ever take. If you play Apocalypse even semi-regularly, make sure to magnetise the turret.

Whirlwind: It's cheap, and that's cool. But it outclassed very quickly by the Thunderfire Cannon.

Vindicator: A good choice if a Thunderfire Cannon isn't required in your meta.

Hunter & Stalker: Get an Aegis Defence Line. Way to fail, GW.

Land Raider / Crusader / Redeemer: Your meta determines which one you want. If you're playing with the latter two, bring the Multi-Melta.

Stormraven Gunship: You're not Blood Angels. You don't need more than one. The Stormstrike Missiles are Concussive and that's amazing when you follow up with a Chapter Master with Thunder Hammer, but, Grav weapons also do that job. Stormravens' other job is to transport Ironclad Dreadnoughts if you find yourself scratching your head as to whether or not to take an even number of 'Pods (hint; don't).

Allies
Blood Angels: Mephiston/Dante, Corbulo and super Stormravens.

Dark Angels: Better Librarians than yours. As well as a Ravenwing Command Squad that can bring the auto-Hit & Run Banner makes a solid unit if you aren't on the 'Scars Wagon. Stubborn Troops also gives you a decent Scoring presence for no extra cost (aside from your Chapter Tactics).

Eldar: Not being Battle Brothers makes these guys only 'good', not great. Their Divination wont effect your other units and you can't bring the nigh-indestructible Seer Council. But you can still bring Jetbikes and a Wraithknight.

Grey Knights: Same problem as Eldar. Good units that you can bring if you want to. But not being Battle Brothers makes them sub-optimal.

Imperial Guard: Good. But not great.

Space Wolves: Grav (Concussive) weapons and Jaws of the World Wolf equals awesome. A couple of Thunderwolves and it's hard to find why you wouldn't do that because it's just so effective at dealing with threats. For high Initiative armies like Eldar, fine. Your Rune Priest swaps to Divination and Battle Brothers are awesome.

Tau: Battle Buff Bro'Mander, Interceptor units, mass Kroot Infiltrate denial/Linebreaker units, and Broadsides and Skyrays are just really good.

Don't bother with any Desperate Allies. They offer you nothing.

Forgeworld
TBA

[ZeltArruin]

To be fair, Raven Guard outside of 24" get +3 to cover saves, so that's something?
*During night fight

[Closet_Skeleton]

I like Land Raiders. :smallbiggrin:

I'm very keen to keep the Chaplain as my HQ since they're decent fighters, relatively cheap and adore the BT Chaplain-Terminator model, but I think I can possibly do without the Shield if I have to.
If I *do* drop that, I have enough left over for a squad of five Sternguard with Combimeltas, in a Drop Pod. I also like Sternguard. :smallwink: Anyone have any better ideas?

You have no neophytes. Ten man squads aren't spam enough. You have way too much free space in those crusaders, they might as well be empty.

You haven't listed any special weapons either. As just a guy with an extra attack, those sword brothers are a waste if they don't have a special equipment. Wounds (neophytes) over 1 attack (sword brother). Melta bombs are for when you want a power sword or axe rather than a power fist, they're not worth bringing the sword brethren alone. Melta bombs don't save you from walkers or monstrous creatures..

Can Terminator characters even take melta bombs? That feels wrong but looks legal.

The obvious answer would be to ditch the predators for some real anti-air, but my Black Templars collection doesn't let me do that either so we may have the same problem.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yesterday I had an eight-man Fire Warrior squad slay a Wolf Lord Terminator that rushed them. Admittedly, he took two wounds during the mass supporting-fire Overwatch, but it was a lowly Shas'La with a melee weapon that finished him.

(Fun fact: Tau seem to benefit tremendously from Purge the Xeno. Supporting Fire and Markerlights and soforth give Tau a lot of reasons to stick together, and having to send Troops to distant map objectives tends to force them to split up.)

[Squark]

So, uhh... Picked up a third drop pod for my Space Wolves, and there was an extra base sprue... any ideas what on earth I should do with it?

[Renegade Paladin]

So, uhh... Picked up a third drop pod for my Space Wolves, and there was an extra base sprue... any ideas what on earth I should do with it?
Objective markers?

[Grim Portent]

So, uhh... Picked up a third drop pod for my Space Wolves, and there was an extra base sprue... any ideas what on earth I should do with it?

Kitbash or scratchbuild something using it? A bit of terrain perhaps. Maybe a modified tank.

EDIT: Annoyingly GW don't have pictures of the drop pod sprues on their website and I've never built one so I don't know what the extra parts you have are like. :smallannoyed:

[Forrestfire]

Call GW about their box having an extra sprue. Maybe they'll send you a new one :smalltongue:

[Rakaydos]

I believe this is an 1750 list

Space wolfs/IG Melee Rush list. (HQ deathstar + Support)

Space Wolves:
WarlordHQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Belt of russ, PF+WC, Saga of the Warrior Born, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, Pfist, WTT, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Canis Wolfborn, 1 Fenwolf
HQ: Thunderwolf Lord, Artificer, Stormshield, WClaw, WTT, 1 Fenwolf

Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)
Troop: 12-13 Fenwolves (cannot score)

IG:
HQ: CCS, 4 meltaguns, Chimera (hull flamer)

Troop: Platoon
-PCS, 4 flamers, Chimera (hull flamer)
-10 guard (no upgrades)
-10 guard (no upgrades)

FA: 2 Vendetta squadron
Deployment:
Standard deployment puts the deathstar in the middle, Shield-Lordsright on the edge of the deploymeny zone, the squad's fenwolf companions 2" side/behind them, and Canis and the Warlord in back. The fenwolf squads deploy several rankes at full 2" separation on either side of the deathstar, within Canis's leadership/leadership reroll bubble. Not sure where the chimeras should go- possibly behind the fenwolves, but I'd be missing out on their full flat-out speed unless the wolves maxxed their run. Cover might be worth it though. "Spare" Guardsmen sit in he vendettas- either they drop on arrival to hold a rear objective or they sit in their birds until turn 5 to contest/steal.

Tactics:
Mainly this list is about giving your enemy too much to worry about and not enough time to deal with it. Do you shoot the T5 2+/3++ deathstar moving at bike speeds toward you, or the intimidatingly large squads of 6+ T4? (or in this version, the 12AV front Chimeras with a 5+ cover save- though my older version had a drop pod of combi meltas for alpha strike potential) You only get 1-2 shooting phases to decide before 12" move + fleet (run or charge) gets me in your face, and the vendettas are coming in for fire support just before impact. the deathstar can split in half if need be, the Shield Lords tanking challanges for Canis or the Warlord to wreck the rest of the squad- when the Shieldlords die, the Warlord's invuln and armor is better than Canis's. Also the HQs can choose to join the survivors of a Fenwolf squad if you're willing to drop to T4- more LOS bodies.
I havnt had a chance to experiment with the Chimeras, but their short ranged weaponry would be good for sofening up enemy deathstars, given a head-to-head confrontation.
Didnt get much discussion of this one, beyond a mention of "be careful of your rear arc."

Currently I'm looking at an 1850 varient that loses the WTT on the shieldlords and drops the fenwolves to 10 per squad... but runs either a drop pod with 5 combi meltas for first blood potential/demolisher cannon killing, or 4 combimeltas and a Deathwind Drop pod, for a slightly less guaranteed vehical kill but an added threat vs swarm and gunline armies. (that aegis stops looking so hot when a large template is fired from behind it.)
On the other hand, dropping the fenwolves to 10 adds to the possibility of giving up FB that way, too.

And of course, anything that's shooting at a drop pod that's already landed, isnt shooting at a chimera or someone in Artificer Armor.

[Renegade Paladin]

You have an awful lot of not scoring. Ten Guardsmen without upgrades or persistent vehicle support (flyers don't stick around after) will not hold an objective against anything even resembling a serious effort to get them off; I know this from long, hard experience. The platoon command squad might fare better against attempts to sweep them in assault (because 4 template overwatch, not because they're good in the ensuing assault), but are hugely vulnerable to shooting once out of the Chimera.

Four Thunderwolves is... intimidating, but manageable. You'd do better with the warlord in a big ol' unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry, I think; you can get more bodies with the points and when the Demolisher/Medusa/Manticore shells start getting thrown around, they'll hold up better for it. Other than that I don't know a lot about Space Wolves; people who actually play them can help you better there.

[Cheesegear]

Quick and dirty guide to Marines for those who are waiting on me to finish.

This is a list of units that each Chapter makes better. If you like a particular unit, then pick the relevant Chapter. Like everything that I write, this list isn't how you win per se, but it's how you not-suck.

Ultramarines: Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastator Squads.
Imperial Fists: Tactical Squads, Scouts, Terminators, Devastators and Centurion Devastators.
Iron Hands: Land Raiders, Techmarines, and HQ models.
Raven Guard: All Infantry except Terminators, Bikes and Centurions. Including attached Dedicated Transports.
Salamanders: Units in Drop Pods, Characters.
White Scars: Bikes. Also everything.
Black Templars: Characters and fast-moving Assault units.

Auto-includes for every army should be;
At least one instance of Bolster Defences. Because it's so good.
At least two Fliers. Because you play 40K, right?
At least one unit in a Drop Pod. What kind of idiot passes up Alpha Strikes?

[Rakaydos]

You have an awful lot of not scoring. Ten Guardsmen without upgrades or persistent vehicle support (flyers don't stick around after) will not hold an objective against anything even resembling a serious effort to get them off; I know this from long, hard experience. The platoon command squad might fare better against attempts to sweep them in assault (because 4 template overwatch, not because they're good in the ensuing assault), but are hugely vulnerable to shooting once out of the Chimera.

Four Thunderwolves is... intimidating, but manageable. You'd do better with the warlord in a big ol' unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry, I think; you can get more bodies with the points and when the Demolisher/Medusa/Manticore shells start getting thrown around, they'll hold up better for it. Other than that I don't know a lot about Space Wolves; people who actually play them can help you better there.

Against any serious threat, the guard pretty much stay airborn- letting the puppies draw all the fire before dropping on objectives lategame. it's why they're so bare bones, because I dont want them for anything except being scoring.

Thing about a mass of Twolf cavalry... you dont actually get many more bodies. You get 3 wounds of 3++ TWC for the price of a single 3w shieldlord, lose the artificer armor, and lose the Wclaw/Pfist, with worse close combat stats (though a few more attacks) and taking more wounds from templates.
With this, every Twolf Lord has a LOS! puppy- against a real ID threat, they can pass the buck with their 2+ look out sir.

[ZeltArruin]

Call GW about their box having an extra sprue. Maybe they'll send you a new one :smalltongue:

That or charge him for it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Apocalypse wonkiness: The Catachan Ambush Patrol gives every unit in it Infiltrate and Move Through Cover, and includes no formation restrictions. Buy ALL the Chimeras and Infiltrate them all over the place, since they themselves have Infiltrate. :smallamused:

Edit: Never mind, in 5th edition you couldn't Infiltrate with a transport, but in 6th you can. Tanks with Move Through Cover are still good, though. And I guess you could Infiltrate them empty if you wanted to for some reason.

Edit 2: Anyway, the reason I was noticing that just then. Was just working up a pair of Apocalypse lists for the game tomorrow, one at 3k and one at 6k (the latter in case there's an uneven number of players and I need to even a side).

3,000 points:
Apocalypse List

3000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 180
-Company command tank (IA1)
-Lascannon

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport

-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport

-Veteran Squad - 155
--Two flamers, heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---Heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 200
-Gunnery Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 160
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Leman Russ battle tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

-Basilisk - 125

-Basilisk - 125

-Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons

6,000 points
Apocalypse List

6000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 180
-Company command tank (IA1)
-Lascannon

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

Ratling Squad - 50
-Two additional ratlings

[Imperial Shield Infantry Company

Company Command Squad - 150
-Power Fist, melta bombs, two sniper rifles
-Regimental Standard, vox-caster, camo cloaks
-Master of Ordnance

Infantry Platoon - 315
-Platoon Command Squad - 65
--Power sword, heavy flamer
--Vox-caster - 5
-Infantry Squad
--Power axe, flamer, lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry Squad
--Power axe, grenade launcher, lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad
--Three autocannons

Infantry Platoon - 320
-Platoon Command Squad
--Power sword, heavy flamer
--Vox-caster
-Infantry Squad
--Flamer, lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry Squad
--Power axe, grenade launcher, lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad
--Three missile launchers

Infantry Platoon - 265
-Platoon Command Squad
--Flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Flamer, lascannon
--Vox-caster
-Infantry Squad
--Power axe, grenade launcher, lascannon
-Infantry Squad
--Power axe, grenade launcher]

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 140
-Three grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 200
-Gunnery Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 160
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Vendetta - 130

Vulture gunship - 145
-Six hunter-killer missiles

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer
-Smoke launchers

Hellhound - 135
-Heavy flamer
-Smoke launchers

Devil Dog - 140
-Multi-melta
-Smoke launchers

Leman Russ battle tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

-Basilisk - 125

-Basilisk - 125

-Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

Baneblade - 775
-Sponsons
-Command Tank

Stormblade - 505
-Sponsons

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Imperial Bastion - 110
-Icarus lascannon

Imperial Bastion - 110
-Icarus lascannon
The second one there is really stretching my model inventory, and I'm actually not quite sure I have enough basic infantry models for the infantry company, though I probably do. If not I'll sub in some spare storm troopers. Right now I'm deciding whether to take Bombardment for my strategic asset (for on-the-cheap, i.e. doesn't cost a victory point to use, Orbital Strike) or the new and improved On My Coordinates! for extra surprise party hilarity the first time I get charged. :smallamused: If I play the 6k list it'll be both since I'll be on the team with fewer players and get an extra one.

[Cheesegear]

Was just working up a pair of Apocalypse lists for the game tomorrow

It's a difficult thing to say anything about Apocalypse lists, considering the sheer scale of stupidity in the game that your opponent can literally field anything and everything. But, one thing I will say is; Where is Creed's High Command Formation? It's amazing, and you're Guard, so you should have it.

[lord_khaine]

Quick and dirty guide to Marines for those who are waiting on me to finish.

This is a list of units that each Chapter makes better. If you like a particular unit, then pick the relevant Chapter. Like everything that I write, this list isn't how you win per se, but it's how you not-suck.

And ill try to turn the guide on its head, in a attempt to figure out how to beat them.
So far the answer seems to be farseer's and divination :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

So far the answer seems to be farseer's and divination :smalltongue:

Your best bet now is the Jet Council. Everything in the Marine book can now to toe-to-toe with Eldar like a good 6th Ed. Codex should be able to. The only thing that Marines actually 'lost' was Null Zone. Marines have all the tools to smash Eldar in the face if they wanted to. However, right now, everyone is still transitioning from their 5th Edition armies and/or haven't bought all the new kits that they need to beat Eldar...So, you've got maybe a month? The other thing is, that you just can't field all the tools you need, but, maybe with Marines' ability to Ally with themselves, maybe they'll have enough FOC Slots to manage it, depending on points.

The other thing also, is that with Bolster Defences, the only way Eldar can shift a Marine unit off of an objective is with Divination and Ignores Cover, but, getting that power is random and therefore sad face.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's a difficult thing to say anything about Apocalypse lists, considering the sheer scale of stupidity in the game that your opponent can literally field anything and everything. But, one thing I will say is; Where is Creed's High Command Formation? It's amazing, and you're Guard, so you should have it.
Creed himself is still sitting unassembled in my toolbox. I suppose I could fix that real quick.

Incidentally, the strategic reserve rules being what they are, am I wrong to conclude that the astropath and officer of the fleet do nothing and are therefore just a tax on the formation?

Edit: Screw it, just to make sure I have enough models I'm taking out the heavy weapon-less infantry squad and throwing in Marbo since they cost the same.

[Jormengand]

Guys, is there actually any way of making Elysians viable, now that they've lost about their only advantages (Fliers which no-one else had, and demo charges that worked)? Because now, they're just expensive guardsmen with deep strike. Do you just have to throw down SWS'es with meltas and flamers and hope it works?

[13_CBS]

Out of curiosity: do we have any explanations or speculations only why psychic powers, in particular, are selected randomly rather than chosen like they were in previous editions? Did GW think it'd add something meaningful? Balance psychic powers? Something else?

[Eldan]

They took half the magic rules from WHF (leaving out some of the more interesting parts, like the truly massive magical malfunctions). Of course, that doesn't answer the question why they did it there, either.

[Tehnar]

For WHFB I justify it that the wizard has to choose the spells in question before setting out with his army; he doesn't know exactly what he will be up against, so thats why the random rolls.

I guess it could be true for 40K as well.


From a gaming perspective I would prefer balanced powers that you purchase with points.

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity: do we have any explanations or speculations only why psychic powers

Probably for the same reason they added random Charge lengths. Randumb is fun! The game is never the same twice! Great, right? How fun is that?

Or, people like WHFB Magic. So, copy that, right? Except let's forget to make ~75% of the Powers any good, and also let's forget that the broken spells in WHFB ruin the game and make Fantasy unfun, but we'll copy it anyway!

I'd rather pay points for a guaranteed Power. Which is why Buff Commanders are so amazingly good. You want Ignores Cover? You can have it. You want re-rolls To Hit? You can have it. Barring very certain situations, those are the two best Divination Powers and Tau can just have them for 30 Points and don't need to worry about Perils.

[Jormengand]

and don't need to worry about Perils.

Or straight-out failing the psychic test.

[Cheesegear]

Or straight-out failing the psychic test.

I don't mind failing. It's a game about dice. It's going to happen.
What I mind is negative resultss for something that's out of my control.

See; FRF!SRF! and the thing about Guardsmen's lasguns not blowing up in their faces.

[Jormengand]

I don't mind failing. It's a game about dice. It's going to happen.
What I mind is negative resultss for something that's out of my control.

That's actually one of the things I liked about fantasy magic. I roll a double six. I blow up? Sure. But you can't actually stop me from dreaded thirteenth'ing your unit, and there's a chance that my miscast will hit you. There's good and there's bad.

Perils? Not a chance.

[lord_khaine]

Your best bet now is the Jet Council. Everything in the Marine book can now to toe-to-toe with Eldar like a good 6th Ed. Codex should be able to. The only thing that Marines actually 'lost' was Null Zone. Marines have all the tools to smash Eldar in the face if they wanted to. However, right now, everyone is still transitioning from their 5th Edition armies and/or haven't bought all the new kits that they need to beat Eldar...So, you've got maybe a month? The other thing is, that you just can't field all the tools you need, but, maybe with Marines' ability to Ally with themselves, maybe they'll have enough FOC Slots to manage it, depending on points.


Ahh bugger, i should have predicted it would go as this.
Still, since we normaly dont play much above 1500 points, then i doubt they will be able to do that.
But is jetbike council really that good? Have you seen it in action?


The other thing also, is that with Bolster Defences, the only way Eldar can shift a Marine unit off of an objective is with Divination and Ignores Cover, but, getting that power is random and therefore sad face.

What about close combat units, D-scythes or nearly enough dakka, shouldnt that do the trick?

Anyway, looking forward to the rest of your analysis, so i can try and plan against what will most likely be the most popular builds.

[Timberwolf]

Probably for the same reason they added random Charge lengths. Randumb is fun! The game is never the same twice! Great, right? How fun is that?

Or, people like WHFB Magic. So, copy that, right? Except let's forget to make ~75% of the Powers any good, and also let's forget that the broken spells in WHFB ruin the game and make Fantasy unfun, but we'll copy it anyway!

I'd rather pay points for a guaranteed Power. Which is why Buff Commanders are so amazingly good. You want Ignores Cover? You can have it. You want re-rolls To Hit? You can have it. Barring very certain situations, those are the two best Divination Powers and Tau can just have them for 30 Points and don't need to worry about Perils.

I entirely agree about this, randomness of powers means that people can't really try to build around powers with anything and therefore have a plan, removing a lot of thinking from the game. However, that isn't what gets me the most about the 6th ed rules.What's the worst bit of that for me is there is absolutely nothing you can do about the buffing (aka the best) powers. If it all goes swimmingly for your opponent, that's a T9, S9 Eternal Warrior flying Hive Tyrant that's grinning smugly at you, GK's are free to stack up Hammerhand and you just have to grin and like it, that Chaos Sorceror is invisible and you either bring a Rune Priest or smile etc etc. At least in Fantasy, everyone can dispell anything, even the Dwarves who I believe have no other magical element.

If they were going to copy Fantasy, they should have copied it wholesale, making it a separate phase of the game and letting everyone get in there, at least to dispell. Sure it'd add to game length but the magic system itself, the dice rolling bit, for Fantasy's not bad, barring the spells themselves that not being a fantasy player I can't comment on. There's elements of choice about it - do I burn my dispell dice on this or not ? - and everyone gets a chance. I'd actually quite like to see that rather than the half hearted Psyker rules we have now.

[Rakaydos]

Just played my puppies vs a Dark Angel player at 1850.

I made a couple serious play errors- such as trying to make a 5" charge against someone who has a special objective that halved my charge range, leaving my deathstar exposed for an extra turn- but because my vendettas were taking so long to come in, my scoring units were entirely unharmed when my survivors pushed his scoring units off one of his home objectives.

My opponent had to leave on the bottom of turn 3, but he still had bikes that were a potential threat to my scoring, as well as a few other units I needed to tidy up- because of my play error on turn two (the bad charge when there was a closer target to charge instead) the game was still up in the air, but I am confident my list would have won otherwise.

[Renegade Paladin]

So it turns out that when Space Marines have to advance at a Guard gun line over a table larger than standard 6'x4', stuff actually dies. I wound up playing the 6000 point list against 3k of Chaos and 3k of Blood Angels since some people were no-shows. We got to the bottom of turn 2 (spent too long waiting for the no shows) and the Blood Angels are in range to assault, but I have first turn, so I'll see what else I can wipe out at the top of 3 before they do when we continue next week. :smallamused: The best part is that I still have an On My Coordinates! asset in reserve. :smallwink:

[Rakaydos]

So it turns out that when Space Marines have to advance at a Guard gun line over a table larger than standard 6'x4', stuff actually dies. I wound up playing the 6000 point list against 3k of Chaos and 3k of Blood Angels since some people were no-shows. We got to the bottom of turn 2 (spent too long waiting for the no shows) and the Blood Angels are in range to assault, but I have first turn, so I'll see what else I can wipe out at the top of 3 before they do when we continue next week. :smallamused: The best part is that I still have an On My Coordinates! asset in reserve. :smallwink:

Yea, IG do gunlines better than anyone else. (Even Tau)
Battle cannons rip apart basically everything, Shadowswords are OP, and autocannon and Lascannon spam ruins other people's days.

[Renegade Paladin]

Only one battle cannon, and they destroyed my Demolisher before it got to do anything (which is only fair, since I did the same thing to three Vindicators), but the Baneblade and Stormblade have had their say. :smalltongue: My Baneblade presently has a Librarian Dreadnought up in its grill courtesy of the damnable Dreadnought drop pod (we ruled that giving it the Assault Vehicle rule and rendering it inoperative in the same paragraph was stupid, a decision I'm regretting), but still has four hull points left despite taking a glance and four penetrating hits in one go. The Blood Angels player was seriously annoyed until it was pointed out to him that the Dreadnought is 175 points or so and the Baneblade is over 700. And now that poor Dreadnought is right in the middle of a huge nest of lascannons. :smallamused:

Edit: Oh, and the ratlings infiltrated into open ground near the enemy board edge, spent a good two turns sniping things before they dispatched a squad of Plague Marines to shoot at them, and then proceeded to make all their cover saves like a boss, holding an objective in their deployment zone in the process. :smallbiggrin:

Edit2: And at the top of the next turn, this guy (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151873299494939&set=a.10151873299044939.1073741834.85674159938&type=3&permPage=1) is going to turn up behind their Devastator line. :smallcool:

[shadow_archmagi]

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about the overall balance of the tabletop? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being a game like Paper Scissors Lascannon, and 10 being a game like Starcraft, which is widely hailed as one of the most balanced asymmetrical warfare games ever, where does tabletop rank?

[Eldan]

Not very high. Both between codices (poor, poor Tyranids) and within. Almost every codex has a unit or two that is just pointless compared to something else within the same codex that does almost the same thing, but better.

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about the overall balance of the tabletop?

As more and more 6th Edition Codecies come out, the more balanced it's becoming, especially if you don't have an updated Codex you can spruke out for Allies. Only thing that really hurts the game right now is Psychic self-buffs and several other factors conspiring to make Assault-based armies unplayable.

I'd say right now it's about at 5, maybe 6. Only one unit in the game is truly broken - StarScreamer. Other than that, I like it. I think with the new Marine book out, Tau and Eldar don't just roflstomp the meta anymore. So, yeah. Not balanced. But not exactly unplayable.

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

[Voidhawk]

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

What is the difference in success rate like between tiers, in your opinion?

If a Tier 4 army fights a Tier 3, is it more or less likely to lose than a Tier 3 facing a Tier 2?

[Provengreil]

As more and more 6th Edition Codecies come out, the more balanced it's becoming, especially if you don't have an updated Codex you can spruke out for Allies. Only thing that really hurts the game right now is Psychic self-buffs and several other factors conspiring to make Assault-based armies unplayable.

I'd say right now it's about at 5, maybe 6. Only one unit in the game is truly broken - StarScreamer. Other than that, I like it. I think with the new Marine book out, Tau and Eldar don't just roflstomp the meta anymore. So, yeah. Not balanced. But not exactly unplayable.

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

Another question, if you don't mind. does this take into account the kind of lists that DON'T involve taking the best stuff in the codex and just kinda spamming it? As one might see outside of tournament play, just for someone who wants to try something different with his army? or do your tiers more or less restrict themselves to consideration of the top few list opportunities?

[13_CBS]

Tier 1; Daemons, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, Wolves, Tau
Tier 2; Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Tyranids
Tier 3; Blood Angels, Orks
Tier 4; Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle

*Sigh* Dark Eldar players just aren't ever going to catch a break, will they? :smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

If a Tier 4 army fights a Tier 3, is it more or less likely to lose than a Tier 3 facing a Tier 2?

Remember your D&D Tiers? It isn't about what army is strictly more powerful (except that it kind of is, if you look closely), it's about how many threats/obstacles does your Codex have the tools to deal with, and, how many of those tools can you field at the same time.

i.e; Bike unit with Grav-Guns. The Grav-Guns waste enemy armour, and do actually threaten Wave Serpents. Not facing enemy armour? You've got Twin-Linked Boltguns!


Another question, if you don't mind. does this take into account the kind of lists that DON'T involve taking the best stuff in the codex and just kinda spamming it?

Yes. It's about how many bad units there are in the Codex, and/or whether or not you can still make a functional list without the good units. Is Fateweaver in every single competitive Daemons list there is? Yes. Do you need Fateweaver to win? No.

[Provengreil]

Yes. It's about how many bad units there are in the Codex, and/or whether or not you can still make a functional list without the good units. Is Fateweaver in every single competitive Daemons list there is? Yes. Do you need Fateweaver to win? No.

Fair enough. I've had plenty of fun with lists made by picking whatever models were in arms reach at the moment, and won with them too sometimes.

[Eldan]

Why do you rate 'nids so highly? I have no pratical experience with or against them, but the internet is full of people moaning about how bad they are and having read the codex, I don't see a lot of good in there.

[Cheesegear]

*Sigh* Dark Eldar players just aren't ever going to catch a break, will they? :smallfrown:

What are you even talking about? In 5th they were one of the best armies around. In 6th, Dark Eldar have been going up and up and up as 'the meta-buster' with their ability to obliterate Monstrous Creatures, Land Raiders and hordes. But, now Marines are back in the game, Dark Eldar can't deal with them at all, the meta has shifted and Dark Eldar are back on the bottom.
They've caught a lot of breaks. Unfortunately, their Codex is so flimsy that it's always going to get tackled.


Why do you rate 'nids so highly?

Biomancy spam? Although, maybe with Marines out, I'm probably going to drop them to T3. However, there's a new Codex coming in, I want to say January. But with Christmas right around the corner, it's more likely a November release.

[hamishspence]

Nids have the problems of lack of allies, lack of fortifications, and lack of Interceptor, among others. They also haven't much in the way of high-Str weaponry that can hit fliers.

[Volthawk]

Nids do also have their thing of flooding the board with guants (something which makes me thankful I only play nids on Vassal, because the prospect of all those guants IRL...). I remember it working quite well against you, actually, Eldan.

[Jormengand]

Nids do also have their thing of flooding the board with guants (something which makes me thankful I only play nids on Vassal, because the prospect of all those guants IRL...). I remember it working quite well against you, actually, Eldan.

The problem with that being that as soon as there are a couple of Vulture Gunships with Multiple Rocket Pods flying about, there's very little you can do.

[13_CBS]

What are you even talking about? In 5th they were one of the best armies around. In 6th, Dark Eldar have been going up and up and up as 'the meta-buster' with their ability to obliterate Monstrous Creatures, Land Raiders and hordes. But, now Marines are back in the game, Dark Eldar can't deal with them at all, the meta has shifted and Dark Eldar are back on the bottom.

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.

That said, didn't Dark Eldar players get shafted for a long time when they didn't get a proper codex update between 3rd and late 5th? It doesn't seem like Dark Eldar players got a very long time to feel awesome before they got shoved down to bottom tier.

[Provengreil]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.

That said, didn't Dark Eldar players get shafted for a long time when they didn't get a proper codex update between 3rd and late 5th? It doesn't seem like Dark Eldar players got a very long time to feel awesome before they got shoved down to bottom tier.

In my (limited) experience with the DE, they're actually quite powerful and slippery, but the moment you draw a proper bead on them they're wet paper. 6th ed just kinda made that a lot easier to do, between overwatch, fliers, high strength large blasts, new charge from wrecks/reserves rules, etc.

[Cheesegear]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking.

No. '5th Edition' style Dark Eldar army of Wyches in Transports was shafted. But do you know what got way better? Warriors and Splinter weapons and Lance spam.

You can't keep playing the same army forever when new Codecies come out. It's like when all the Cron-Air players said that Necrons were terrible when Tau came out. No. Necrons are still great. It's Cron-Air that's bad. Change your army to fit the meta. Oh, look. You're Necrons. You can totally do that because you don't have too many bad units in your Codex.

[Timberwolf]

Huh. For some reason, I thought Dark Eldar were having trouble as soon as the 6th Edition came out and they became unable to assault right after disembarking. I must have misread a past "Cheesegear's black & white 40k comments" or something.


In the Semi Final of my club's recent knock out cup, I drew a Dark Eldar player. I'd not really got much experience with them, I'd run into one player who did very kindly and discreetly put my head in a bag before handing it back to me. However, that meant little to me now as a: I'd just started playing again at that point and b: it was 5th ed.

This time it was the weirdest, oddest game I've ever played. It was also the best, no doubt about it. He just had so much stuff. If it had have been an objectives game, I'd have been stuffed. It was a nice balanced list he had, lots of warriors, lances and splinter weapons but also a couple of units of Wyches and a unit of Incubi rolling with his Archon as well as some Reavers. As it was I won by a Drop Pod. I just couldn't kill enough stuff quickly enough (save for my Rune Priest's moment of utter glory using Living Lightning to blast the Archon and remaining 2 Incubi while running like hell from them). Dark Eldar are by no means terrible, they have the tools and if they horde up, which, for the dying race of Eldar, they are strangely capable of doing as their vehicles are cheap, they just fire so many shots.

[lord_khaine]

Unfortunately for the rest of the galaxy, then Dark Eldars are not dying nearly fast enough.

And since they use superior Eldar technology combined with Dark Eldar morals, then it means there will allways be more warriors ready.

[Grim Portent]

From what I recall Dark Eldar are supposed to be numerous. It's just the Trueborn that are rare. Most are removed from the womb after insemination and grown to maturity in vitae wombs and a lot are vat grown by haemonculi. Big armies of kabalites makes perfect sense.

[Cheesegear]

What I'm taking to the next tournament, as well as the required 'page of fluff'.

Forge the Narrative!
"You know why you're here, don't you?" asked Sixth Captain Brage.
"Because I disobeyed orders." spoke Codicier Ultionis, on his knees.
Captain Brage held a sword towards Ultionis' neck. Brage wore a simple robe, leaving his arms bare. Tattooed and branded on his right arm - his sword-arm - were the names and Chapter badges of several other Space Marines, under the icon of the Inquisition. All of the Space Marines who died under his Vigil during his service to the Deathwatch. Those Marines who would be Brage's brothers more than any Imperial Fist ever would.
"You're here," said Brage "because First Captain Lysander refuses to have you under his command. Which means, all the other Captains wont take you. Except me." Brage smirked. "Get up."
Ultionis rose from his knees. One of Brage's Command Squad passed Ultionis a sword. Ultionis looked at the Sixth Company Command. 5 Space Marines stood in robes, in the 6th Company of Imperial Fists, there was no Company Champion - if anyone was going to fight for Captain Brage, it would be himself. The sixth Company Chaplain stood directly behind Ultionis, in full Power Armour.
"As far as I'm concerned, if Captain Lysander doesn't want you, then I do. You've got the Crux Terminatus, so I know you can fight." Brage dropped into a fighter's stance while Ultionis did the same. "But, what I want to know is, how well..." Brage lunged at Ultionis, his sword flicking in and out. It was only Ultionis' preternatural Psyker-sense that allowed him to keep up."
"I fought the Eldar warrior-witches of Biel-Tan." Brage went high. Ultionis parried. "They're a lot faster than you are, and getting hit by their Witchblades is like getting run over by a Rhino." Brage sidestepped and kicked Ultionis in the knee. Ultionis barely felt the pain, but it knocked him sideways.
Brage continued "You've got the Crux Terminatus. I've read your after-action reports." Brage lunged in again, three swift strikes, Ultionis blocked them all.
"Why aren't you an Epistolary?" asked Brage, backing off.
"Because I don't want to be." said Ultionis, searching Brage for weakness.
"You a Templar?" said Brage. Bluntly.
"You think I hate myself so much that I would limit my own psychic growth!?" Ultionis charged Brage. Brage blocked Ultionis' strikes and circled in the ring of his Command Staff.
"I think you're holding back." Brage slammed the flat of his blade against the side of Ultionis' head. It was so fast.
"The Sixth Company is brutal. I've got my Marines chomping at the bit to make it to the Battle Companies. It's my job to tell them that they're not good enough. It's my job to tell them to be better." Brage swung at Ultionis' head again. "Here in the Sixth, we do our best. All the time. Always." spoke the Master of Rites.
"Because, when time comes. The 6th Company will be called. And do you know why the Sixth is called?" Brage threw his sword at Ultionis. Ultionis deflected the projectile. Brage no longer had a weapon. Ultionis was going to win this duel in a matter of seconds. "The sixth is called because the excrement is in the warp drive."
Brage ran at Ultionis. Ultionis had two choices, lunge low, or lunge high. His psyker senses told him that Brage would go low. But, surely Brage would know that? Ultionis would need to lunge high. But Brage would know he knew. Brage was the Master of Rites. The Rites of Battle. He knew battle better than anyone in the Chapter. Surely he would...Time was up. Ultionis went low, to stab Brage in the leg.
The Captain jumped over Ultionis' sword in a flying tackle. Brage headbutted Ultionis. While Ultionis could ignore the pain, he could not ignore physics, and the both of them went to the ground, Brage in full-mount. Brage rabbit-punched Ultionis in the chest, and then again under his left armpit. Ultionis gasped as both of his hearts skipped a beat, and then Brage went to punch Ultionis in the head, but stopped.
"A Black Dragon taught me that move." said Brage. Ultionis mentally noted a Black Dragon insignia on his right arm, a fallen Marine. Had he been the one to teach Brage? "If I'd had arm-blades, you'd be dead. If I was a Carcharodon, you wouldn't have a jugular as their instinct would just be to tear your throat out, and you'd be dead. But, I'm an Imperial Fist, so I would just have to keep punching you in the head until your brain shut down."
Ultionis' eyes widened. That half-second when his hearts stopped beating could have gotten him killed in battle. And Brage had done it without a weapon.
"You're in the Sixth now." Brage looked at Ultionis. "You're going to take the test for Epistolary, and you're going to be the best Psyker you can be." said Brage. Ultionis nodded from his prone position on the floor. "Further, you have the Crux Terminatus. You are not better than me. I am your Captain. You will never, ever, ever disobey my orders."
Brage punched Ultionis in the head, and then everything went black.

Captain Brage is named after an NPC you have to kill in Baldur's Gate, he has a Cursed Sword of Berserking. 6th Company is on Bikes. The 6th Company Captain is also The Master of Rites (of Battle). So, he'd better be good at fighting, because when you think about what Reserve Companies are for, **** gets real. Both on and off the battlefield.

Army List
Imperial Fists
[Captain] Brage; Storm Shield, Bike, Burning Blade - 180 Points
Command Squad; Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns - 250 Points

Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points

Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points
Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points

Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Dark Angels
[Librarian] Epistolary Ultionis; Force Stave, Mastery Level 2, Auspex, Bike - 125 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points

Total; 1748 Points

For an extra 10 Points, a Dark Angels Librarian gives Fearless and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Marines) (which Imperial Fists should have anyway), and also has access to Divination, as well as Telepathy and Telekinesis anyway. The Dark Angel Rifle-Scouts cost 1-point extra than Codex Marines, but they get Rifles for free, so it evens out, especially if they aren't using Boltguns because then what's the point of being Imperial Fists?

[lord_khaine]

Nice bit of narative, amazing how far someone can fall down into disgrace, after having fried the swarmlord :smalltongue:

Also, that certainly looks like a mean list, will look forward to hear about how it makes it though the tournament.

[Grim Portent]

Preferred Enemy (Chaos Marines) (which Imperial Fists should have anyway

I could see Imperial Fists with Hatred (Iron Warriors) but of course there's no real distinction in the chaos codex between a traitor legion and huron blackhearts scout jamboree :smallmad:

I like the list, not a huge number of models but then I don't usually play below 2000 points so any army below that looks small to me. I see a lot of Grav-Guns in there but I haven't fought any yet myself so I can't judge them, although I'd expect to see more plasma in one of your lists.

I liked the snippet of fluff. It was a nice little portrayal of inter HQ dynamics in your army.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's a thing...

Command Squad - 250 Points
Apothecary, Bikes, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns

Ravenwing Command Squad (x5) - 230 Points
Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, Apothecary

The Ravenwing cost 20 Points less, and lose their 3+ Invulnerable. But gain Stubborn, Scouts, Skilled Rider and Hit & Run. They swap Grav-Guns for Twin-Linked Plasma Talons.

Is it worth it? With that 20 extra points I could pick up some extra wargear, or give the Scout units a Veteran Sergeant for the extra Scoring Leadership. Poop. I honestly don't know what to do, here. If I just swapped to White Scars and picked up Kor'Sarro, it'd be easy. But I don't have the amount of Bikes I need to make that work.

[shadow_archmagi]

Army List
Imperial Fists
[Captain] Brage; Storm Shield, Bike, Burning Blade - 180 Points
Command Squad; Apothecary, x4 Storm Shields, x4 Grav-Guns - 250 Points

Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Scout Squad (x10) - 110 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points
Bike Squad (x4); x2 Grav-Guns, Vet + Attack Bike; Multi-Melta - 179 Points

Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points
Stormtalon; Twin-Linked Lascannon - 140 Points

Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points
Thunderfire Cannon - 100 Points

Dark Angels
[Librarian] Epistolary Ultionis; Force Stave, Mastery Level 2, Auspex, Bike - 125 Points
Scout Squad (x10); Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 135 Points

Total; 1748 Points


What *do* gravity guns do these days, anyway? Also, is your entire army (except for the scouts) on bikes? I guess that gives you three scoring units who can mosey over to command points while the bike armada zips towards the enemy and ties them up.

[Cheesegear]

What *do* gravity guns do these days, anyway?

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.

Obviously a Grav-Gun deals with high-armour units. But, Bikes also have Boltguns to deal with low-armoured units. Bikes are also Relentless making Salvo weapons extremely good.


Also, is your entire army (except for the scouts) on bikes? I guess that gives you three scoring units

The Bikes are also Scoring. :smallwink:

[Grim Portent]

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.


Doesn't that mean that Daemons are pretty much immune to Grav-Guns?

[shadow_archmagi]

Wound on your target's Armour Save. Salvo 2/3, AP2. When you Hit a Vehicle, instead of rolling to Penetrate, roll a die. On a '6' you Immobilise the Vehicle and they lose a Hull Point. This does not count as a Glancing Hit.

i.e; A Fire Warrior has a 4+ Save, a Grav-Gun will wound on a 4+. Kroot have 6+ Saves. Will wound on 6s.

Obviously a Grav-Gun deals with high-armour units. But, Bikes also have Boltguns to deal with low-armoured units. Bikes are also Relentless making Salvo weapons extremely good.


Cripes. The ultimate way to say no to terminators.

[Wraith]

I honestly don't know what to do, here.

I would tentatively suggest keeping the Codex Marines version, simply down to the Grav-guns. I strongly suspect that any Marine Player who does well at any Tournament in this short time frame, will do so by abusing his opponents' lack of familiarity with what his new units do.

Dark Angels has been and gone from the Warhammer 'catwalk' of fashionable armies, and everyone knows what Plasma Guns are and how to beat them. "Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raider/big pile of cover saves/fast moving bikes for you to deal with, have fun."

The Marines book, on the other hand, is just about a month old, and I'd be very surprised if most players had yet picked up the habit of dealing with them effectively. "Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raid-OH GOD WHAT'S HAPPENING WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO ME!?!" :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

On an unrelated note, thank you to Closet Skeleton for your comments on my Black Templars list.
I don't like some of them, but that's because they're hard truths to hear about my 'pet' list, and I'm stubborn like that. I still admit that they're all really good, flavourful ones that make a lot of sense. :smalltongue:

I think, ultimately, I will drop the Emperor's Champion to make room for Neophytes and a few Power Weapons - I'd rather have an 'okay' Sword Brother in each unit, than one 'good' Champion in just one of them, I think. Will probably turn the Predator turrets back into Autocannons too - I like my tanks too much to give them up completely, and Twin Linked gives me something to hope for against flyers, I guess. :smallsmile:

And since you asked, yes - Most characters I can see who can take Terminator Armour as an option, can still take Special Issue wargear and thus are allowed to carry Melta Bombs.

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't that mean that Daemons are pretty much immune to Grav-Guns?

Pretty much. A Grav-Gun doesn't wound on less than a 6.


I strongly suspect that any Marine Player who does well at any Tournament in this short time frame, will do so by abusing his opponents' lack of familiarity with what his new units do.

I guess that Plasma Guns can deal with high-Tougness, Low Armour Save units, and Grav-Guns can't.

Like what? :smallconfused:

Daemons.


"Oh no! You're ignoring my 2+ saves! Oh well, here's a Land Raider/big pile of cover saves/fast moving bikes for you to deal with, have fun."

If you've got Cover Saves, Grav-Guns are still roughly the same as Plasma. Except Grav-Guns don't kill you...
Uhh...Well, looks like I just answered my own dumb question.

I guess I would be shooting for Ignores Cover on the Divination table, like always.

But, the big draw for the Ravenwing Squad is H&R and Scout.
"But Cheese, just play Kor'Sarro you idiot." Ah...But an all-Bike army can't climb stairs.

[Wraith]

I guess that Plasma Guns can deal with high-Tougness, Low Armour Save units, and Grav-Guns can't.

Like what? :smallconfused:

Daemons.

If only you had an abundance of some kind of Rifle, as if the sort potentially used by a Sniper, to deal with that kind of threat.....

...Ah, what a sweet pipe dream. Such a thing actually happening would just be outrageous crazy-talk. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Though if you (somehow! :smallsmile:) place highly in this Tournament, I am *totally* claiming it as my own psuedo-victory for the purposes of a battle report. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

If only you had an abundance of some kind of Rifle, as if the sort potentially used by a Sniper, to deal with that kind of threat...

*slow clap* ...Well played. You win this round Wraith. I like how I can't even remember my own army.

Anyway...Bikes and Scouts is back!

[Wraith]

We'll call it even, for the whole "No one but Captain Shrike has Fleet" fiasco, I think. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

Cripes. The ultimate way to say no to terminators.

...Is a plasma gun. Because the thing about a plasma gun is that it also says no to a 5+ armoured imperial guardsman or 6+ armoured ork, tyranid, kroot, and so on. Or to an AV12 or below vehicle. Oh, and from further away. Very rarely will you actually get the extra shot from the salvo, and models with 3+ saves do not have the greatest tendency to care that there is a less than 0.3 chance of killing yourself even if you somehow shoot six times in one game.

Trust me, if you're facing a line of guardsmen you will far prefer the plasma guns.

[Forrestfire]

Out of curiosity, how are you getting grav-guns on the bike command squad? My book says they can only get combi-gravs or grav pistols as best.

[bluntpencil]

Out of curiosity, how are you getting grav-guns on the bike command squad? My book says they can only get combi-gravs or grav pistols as best.

Errata gives Command Squads special weapons.

[Forrestfire]

Ah, good to know. :smallredface:

... So the bike command squad is basically a centurion squad that trades rerolls to wound for mobility and not being instagibbed by plasma and melta? Neat.

[bluntpencil]

...Is a plasma gun. Because the thing about a plasma gun is that it also says no to a 5+ armoured imperial guardsman or 6+ armoured ork, tyranid, kroot, and so on. Or to an AV12 or below vehicle. Oh, and from further away. Very rarely will you actually get the extra shot from the salvo, and models with 3+ saves do not have the greatest tendency to care that there is a less than 0.3 chance of killing yourself even if you somehow shoot six times in one game.

Trust me, if you're facing a line of guardsmen you will far prefer the plasma guns.

On Bikes, you will always get the Salvo off. Also, you have twin-linked bolters to kill guardsmen. Bikers with Grav Guns are great all rounders.

[Jormengand]

On Bikes, you will always get the Salvo off. Also, you have twin-linked bolters to kill guardsmen. Bikers with Grav Guns are great all rounders.

On bikes, just about fair enough (though I'd still prefer the plasma most of the time). On other things I'd never take them.

[Squark]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs, and the wonkiness of how they effect vehicles (A plasmagun will strip one hull point from a skimmer on a 5-6 if you get through the jink save. Grav gun? 3 shots at 18 inches, and a single six automatically immobilizes and strips a hull point, since, at least for another three weeks, the strict RAW reading is that vehicles don't get cover or invulnerable saves against the shot since it's not a glancing or penetrating hit) makes them very effective against some of the current bogeymen. They're much less functional against kroot, guardsmen, or demons... But you've got inexpensive boltguns, Thunderfire cannons, and sniper rifles for those. And 40k has generally trended towards running a few specialized units compared to one general-purpose unit.

[Cheesegear]

On bikes, just about fair enough (though I'd still prefer the plasma most of the time). On other things I'd never take them.

Yes. Exactly. Fortunately, I'm not taking anything not-Bikes, am I?

[lord_khaine]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs, and the wonkiness of how they effect vehicles (A plasmagun will strip one hull point from a skimmer on a 5-6 if you get through the jink save. Grav gun? 3 shots at 18 inches, and a single six automatically immobilizes and strips a hull point, since, at least for another three weeks, the strict RAW reading is that vehicles don't get cover or invulnerable saves against the shot since it's not a glancing or penetrating hit) makes them very effective against some of the current bogeymen. They're much less functional against kroot, guardsmen, or demons... But you've got inexpensive boltguns, Thunderfire cannons, and sniper rifles for those. And 40k has generally trended towards running a few specialized units compared to one general-purpose unit.

I certainly think they are insanely annoying, putting a large hole though my plans on beginning to use my wraithlords again, now that the poison danger is somewhat over.

[Cheesegear]

Grav Guns are kind of a silver bullet at the moment. They terrify Riptides, Tervigons, and Wraith-bone constructs

This. Exactly this. And nothing else.

Plasma Guns are wounding Wraithknights on 5s. And those Wraithknights are chucking out S10 shots that are going to kill Bikes dead. Grav-Guns will wound on 3s with more shots. I know which one I need.

Plasma Guns are wounding Riptides on 3s. Riptides with Ion Accelerators are killing half a Bike unit per turn, each. With two Riptides on the board (definitely a possibility), that's one dead unit per turn, before the rest of the Tau army starts shooting. Riptides need to die. Grav-Guns will wound Riptides on 2s with more shots - and against a 5-wound model, that counts!

If I want to shoot Guardsmen, I'll use Boltguns, thank you.

[lord_khaine]

So with all this annoying grav shooting (i think its going overboard to give entire units this weapon), then i guess 4+ is the new thing to have :P

Enough to protect against bolters, not quite enough to automatically get crushed by gravity.

But on a side note, does anyone think a Seer council could work on foot in a wave serpent?

[Tehnar]

But on a side note, does anyone think a Seer council could work on foot in a wave serpent?

I don't think it would work too well. The points you pay for a serpent could go into bikes with some left over. You delay your assault to turn 3 at the earliest, and you don't have the armor/cover save to soak up any wounds from shooting. Also the -1 T makes it much easier to ID the Farseer.

Foot councils could work with the last codex, with this one its either bikes or nothing.

What sort of works is a Iyaden list wraithstar. Usually wraithblades with 3-5 spiritseers and a farseer; but I would still prefer to spend the points on a jetseer council.

[Closet_Skeleton]

On an unrelated note, thank you to Closet Skeleton for your comments on my Black Templars list.
I don't like some of them, but that's because they're hard truths to hear about my 'pet' list, and I'm stubborn like that. I still admit that they're all really good, flavourful ones that make a lot of sense. :smalltongue:

I still haven't managed to write a list for my Black Templars I've liked under 3000 points, and don't have the troops for a second detatchment to actually put everything in a list so its more like 2600 points I could actually take.


Will probably turn the Predator turrets back into Autocannons too - I like my tanks too much to give them up completely, and Twin Linked gives me something to hope for against flyers, I guess. :smallsmile:

Predator auto-cannon isn't twin-linked, only the lascannon is. Which makes non-Annihilator Predators rediculously under gunned, but that's what happens when you don't change a Tank's armament for 6 editions but change the rules for that gun massively in the first 3 editions.

[lord_khaine]

I don't think it would work too well. The points you pay for a serpent could go into bikes with some left over. You delay your assault to turn 3 at the earliest, and you don't have the armor/cover save to soak up any wounds from shooting. Also the -1 T makes it much easier to ID the Farseer.

Foot councils could work with the last codex, with this one its either bikes or nothing.

What sort of works is a Iyaden list wraithstar. Usually wraithblades with 3-5 spiritseers and a farseer; but I would still prefer to spend the points on a jetseer council.

I guess you are right, though it is a shame, because i really liked my Seer council, and i dont like the though at all about having to do the massive converting needed for putting everyone on a bike.

Of course, i really dont like to think about what would be needed to counter SM bike spam with gravity guns either, besides either poking them down with reapers, or hoping noone else in the local club can afford to buy a bike list :smalltongue:

[Tehnar]

I don't think it takes too much work to take down a bike list; ie you won't have to modify your normal list at all. All that is poor vs bikes are wraith units; but the most powerful, the wraithscythes hide in serpents anyway.

Grav guns do 4/9 wounds per shot on a Wraithknight/lord pre saves. To kill a wraithlord with the 5++ (or cover) you still need 19 shots, or shots from 3 bike units. The problem is at 18" bikes are in easy assault range, from the wraithknight. Wraithknights need to be vary, but their jump status allows them too keep away.

The only ones with big problems are the Wraithlords.

Bikes are vulnerable to mass high strength shooting, something eldar have plenty of. Dakkaserpents will on average shoot down 2.25 bikes.

Grav guns don't do much to eldar skimmers, on average you need 18 shots to get a singe immobilize result.

[Wraith]

I still haven't managed to write a list for my Black Templars I've liked under 3000 points.....

I think I can just about do it it for about 2300. No more helpful for a 2000pt game, admittedly, but I'm either doing something wrong or am incredibly easy to please. :smalltongue:

Maybe I'll work on my 'Iron Hands' list (in quotes because it's just a pile of Dreadnoughts led by a MotF from before Iron Hands was a thing) while I think about it. It'll be cheap to rebuild at least, since there's no way I'm going out to buy Dread #8 any time soon....


Predator auto-cannon isn't twin-linked, only the lascannon is. Which makes non-Annihilator Predators ridiculously under gunned, but that's what happens when you don't change a Tank's armament for 6 editions but change the rules for that gun massively in the first 3 editions.

Oh goody. So not only did I buy the 5th Edition rulebook and keep trying to play with 4th Edition differences, I've now bought the 6th Edition rulebook and have regressed to using my 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines.

This "list writing" stuff is harder than I remember..... Although buying your HQ choices when the FoC just says "50% of your points allowance can be Characters" in an era when Terminator Librarians would give their pocket change to today's Swarmlord out of sympathy *IS* kinda fun...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Oh goody. So not only did I buy the 5th Edition rulebook and keep trying to play with 4th Edition differences, I've now bought the 6th Edition rulebook and have regressed to using my 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines.

Codex Ultramarines and 1st ed was a single autocannon too. Every weapon just worked pretty much completely differently and in many ways made more sense.

But a standard Predator was only 90 points (120 with twin-linked lascannon upgrade), while a standard Razorback with its twin-linked plasma gun and lascannon was 150 points, so a predator clearly wasn't actually supposed to be powerful or a main battle tank even then.

It was only the Dreadnought that carried special weapons that were better than normal ones, an annoying fact that anyone looking at the official appearance of the Dreadnought missile launcher should be able to notice that something obviously went wrong somewhere.

[Jormengand]

Of course, i really dont like to think about what would be needed to counter SM bike spam with gravity guns either, besides either poking them down with reapers, or hoping noone else in the local club can afford to buy a bike list :smalltongue:

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors. A single droneless squad Storm of Firing will bring down an average of 3 bikers each turn, and neither of the bikers' weapons counter 4+ armoured fire warriors - though you're a little better using the grav guns just through the ignore armour and extra shot(s).

And that's if you don't have PFs sitting back and making all your FWs hit on a 2+

[shadow_archmagi]

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors. A single droneless squad Storm of Firing will bring down an average of 3 bikers each turn, and neither of the bikers' weapons counter 4+ armoured fire warriors - though you're a little better using the grav guns just through the ignore armour and extra shot(s).

And that's if you don't have PFs sitting back and making all your FWs hit on a 2+

Oh, fire warriors! Is there anything you can't do? :smallredface:

Ugh, I really want to put more Sniper Drone Teams into my army- Markerlights *and* snipers is just too delightful to pass up, but I also really love Hammerheads.

[Jormengand]

Oh, fire warriors! Is there anything you can't do? :smallredface:

Ugh, I really want to put more Sniper Drone Teams into my army- Markerlights *and* snipers is just too delightful to pass up, but I also really love Hammerheads.

If you want a full sniper team, take 3 PFs and 10 scouts with a cheapo libby (Who can do pretty funky things to your Tau using telepathy anyway) instead, all costing about the same amount, and use the heavy support slot for the hammerhead.

[Cheesegear]

Or, you know, Tau fire warriors.

How will I counter Bikes with Eldar?
Play Tau.

...Really? :smallconfused:

[Provengreil]

How will I counter Bikes with Eldar?
Play Tau.

...Really? :smallconfused:

Allies. tau are pretty friendly, IIRC.

[Squark]

Also, I'm really not seeing what the Fire Warriors are doing to bikes that Kroot with Sniper Rounds aren't (apart from being more expensive and thus meaning less other stuff).

[shadow_archmagi]

Also, I'm really not seeing what the Fire Warriors are doing to bikes that Kroot with Sniper Rounds aren't (apart from being more expensive and thus meaning less other stuff).

Having their shooting multiplied when the enemy is near, or an Ethereal hanging around?

[Yaktan]

Also, longer range than the kroot and not having to stand completely still. Kroot without sniper rounds, on the other hand, are even cheaper.

[Cheesegear]

Allies. tau are pretty friendly, IIRC.

It's just less helpful than it sounds. Especially because Eldar don't need Tau to beat Bikes. Eldar are still one of the top-tier armies that exists. And, you guessed it, they've even got a 4+ Save Troop unit with pseudo-Rending that ignores T5 and 3+ Armour, and they've got ML3 Divination access for reasonably cheap.

Oh, look. Dark Reapers. All the Bikes are dead.
Oh, look. Ruins and multi-storey buildings.

Speaking of Buildings. They don't have Hull Points and Grav Guns don't cause Glancing Hits. Buildings are immune to Grav-weapons. Have you bought a Bastion yet?

[thereaper]

Anyone heard the rumor about SoB? Depending on who you ask, they're either getting a digital codex, or a new digital codex.

Personally, I'm worried either way, because the only reason the people at my GW let me play without the actual codex is because you can't get it legally, and I can not afford an ipad just for 40k.

[lord_khaine]

Personally, I'm worried either way, because the only reason the people at my GW let me play without the actual codex is because you can't get it legally, and I can not afford an ipad just for 40k.

Just buy it, put it on a USB stick to show the GW people, and then also bring a printed backup copy?


Oh, look. Dark Reapers. All the Bikes are dead.

Now im wondering if a Dark Reaper deathstar would be a viable pick, with 10 Reapers, a spiritseer to give them a 2+ cover save, and a Farseer if he can make them ignore peoples cover saves.

[Jormengand]

How will I counter Bikes with Eldar?
Play Tau.

...Really? :smallconfused:

Welcome to sixth edition, CG. Enjoy your stay.

[Renegade Paladin]

Speaking of Buildings. They don't have Hull Points and Grav Guns don't cause Glancing Hits. Buildings are immune to Grav-weapons. Have you bought a Bastion yet?
I bought an Imperial Strongpoint box before it was cool. :smallcool:

[Provengreil]

I bought an Imperial Strongpoint box before it was cool. :smallcool:

I made mine with cardboard, toothpicks, and styrofoam.

[Renegade Paladin]

I made mine with cardboard, toothpicks, and styrofoam.
That works too. I did it with tournament winnings, though, since I wanted to plow them back into the club because it was all our money to begin with. I'd never buy a terrain kit otherwise. :smallwink:

[Adrastos42]

So, anyone else at the UK games day? And had we had any info before now that the first supplement for space marin
es will be imperial fists? Because I can confirm it's imperial fists:)
Afraid pics will have to wait until I'm home, but "sentinels of terra" shall aparrently be released digitally in october.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, anyone else at the UK games day? And had we had any info before now that the first supplement for space marin
es will be imperial fists? Because I can confirm it's imperial fists:)
Afraid pics will have to wait until I'm home, but "sentinels of terra" shall aparrently be released digitally in october.

Awwww yeaaaaaah! Fluffwise, the Fists are among my beloved chapters. It'll be interesting to see what happens when they're not a medicore army.

[Adrastos42]

Haven't found any details about the supplement, but I have found that the next primarch will be Lorgar, shoddy pictures later:)

[Cheesegear]

Fluffwise, the Fists are among my beloved chapters. It'll be interesting to see what happens when they're not a medicore army.

But they're not a mediocre Chapter now. As of new Codex, they're the third-best Chapter Tactics. :smallconfused:

The Fists are my favourite Chapter. But, I really, really don't want to see another 20 pages of The Iron Cage again. I want it common knowledge that Dorn couldn't give a s* about Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, and that Dorn's real evil opposite was Night Haunter, and, that NH is/was the only thing in the Galaxy that Dorn was afraid of. As the most Good (capital G), Space Marines, I really wish the Fists had more page time. Since they're basically Lawful Good in a universe of Chaotic Neutral. I want more for the 'Paladins of 40K'. I also want it confirmed whether or not Dorn was The Last Primarch.

"Discipline. Duty. Unyielding Will. [...] Unarmed, a warrior with these qualities will still find victory." - Rogal Dorn

I may have worked that quote into my Narrative. :smallwink:
...Any more comments than that, I start delving into the Fluff thread.

I'm also doing Word Bearers for my Pre-Heresy army. So excited for the second Horus Heresy book. The Iron Hands look amazing. Lorgar being pretty much the only traitor Primarch I like since his motivations actually make sense. All the other traitor Primarchs were either just corrupted or having a tantrum of epic proportions.

ION;
Playtested my Fists/Dark Angels vs. Eldar (only 3 Wave Serpents), did better than I expected it would. Burning Blade is amazing. Playtested against dual Riptides - which I won. All in all, I like it. I've found that my opponents are underestimating my Scouts, until the Shooting Phase when being Imperial Fists makes them better at shooting Boltguns. Fairly impressed.

I was also reminded by the Eldar player that Captain Brage is a new and improved Captain Falcon. I'll need to get him to punch out an Avatar soon.

[shadow_archmagi]

But they're not a mediocre Chapter now. As of new Codex, they're the third-best Chapter Tactics. :smallconfused:

The Fists are my favourite Chapter. But, I really, really don't want to see another 20 pages of The Iron Cage again. I want it common knowledge that Dorn couldn't give a s* about Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, and that Dorn's real evil opposite was Night Haunter, and, that NH is/was the only thing in the Galaxy that Dorn was afraid of. As the most Good (capital G), Space Marines, I really wish the Fists had more page time. Since they're basically Lawful Good in a universe of Chaotic Neutral. I want more for the 'Paladins of 40K'. I also want it confirmed whether or not Dorn was The Last Primarch.

"Discipline. Duty. Unyielding Will. [...] Unarmed, a warrior with these qualities will still find victory." - Rogal Dorn

I may have worked that quote into my Narrative. :smallwink:
...Any more comments than that, I start delving into the Fluff thread.

I'm also doing Word Bearers for my Pre-Heresy army. So excited for the second Horus Heresy book. The Iron Hands look amazing. Lorgar being pretty much the only traitor Primarch I like since his motivations actually make sense. All the other traitor Primarchs were either just corrupted or having a tantrum of epic proportions.

ION;
Playtested my Fists/Dark Angels vs. Eldar (only 3 Wave Serpents), did better than I expected it would. Burning Blade is amazing. Playtested against dual Riptides - which I won. All in all, I like it. I've found that my opponents are underestimating my Scouts, until the Shooting Phase when being Imperial Fists makes them better at shooting Boltguns. Fairly impressed.

I was also reminded by the Eldar player that Captain Brage is a new and improved Captain Falcon. I'll need to get him to punch out an Avatar soon.

I thought the fists were more Lawful Neutral, and it was the Salamanders who were LG?

[Cheesegear]

I thought the fists were more Lawful Neutral, and it was the Salamanders who were LG?

I can see how you would think that. But I think they both are, just in different ways. Dorn is LG to Curze's CE, which gets brought up in one of the audiobooks.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Salamanders are more neutral good, as much as anything in the Imperium could not be lawful. Salamanders protect people because its their duty, Imperial Fists do their duty because its what will protect people*.

Black Templars are the LN Imperial Fists, even though really they're CE with lawful rhetoric and too many enemies for them to ever need to kill anyone you wouldn't want dead.

*yes, I know that makes implies they're even less different than Gork and Mork

[Adrastos42]

So, Games Day.
I have to be honest, all in all I was kind of disappointed. The move to a smaller venue (to try to make it actually profitable) resulted in the cutting of the parts that I really went for- mostly the battle tables and the scrap daemon. There was actually nowhere at all to play any of the core games, whether as bring your own or pre-set up. The closest was the areas where you could try Fantasy Flight's games and the balcony which showcased computer games. If it stays the same next year I'm afraid I probably won't go. But still, I did find some cool stuff:) Not posting as many pictures as I'd like because the sheer crowds, a terrible camera and lack of skill ruined quite a few while other things I just didn't spot, but these guys seem to have a fairly comprehensive selection: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/09/gamesday-uk-2013.html (don't read the comments:P)

Imperial fists supplement:
No info for this other than what's in the picture I'm afraid.
http://i.imgur.com/Nv9eOwY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qbVCWEP.jpg

Lorgar:
Expected to come out around Christmas apparently.
http://i.imgur.com/ZUBePsw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ijreC2j.jpg

Kharybdis Assault Claw:
Also expected around Christmas. Basically a bigger deathclaw pod with a load of missiles. Comes with a flying base or can land, in which case the legs can all extend. The legs come with details specifically designed to fit magnets. Expected transport capacity of "about 20 models", "possibly superheavy" The base has lots of details including magna-grapples, there may be a ramming mechanic?
http://i.imgur.com/c5KdMvD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3Sz1LlS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LVLEUTy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0A5P2tq.jpg
-Random forgeworld snippet from the guy that did the assault claw- assault weapons pack for Tartaros Terminators will be done "some time".

I managed to speak to Jervis Johnson, he was showing off a little minigame called "scout force" or something he made as a replacement for rolling for first turn. Very dice-based, get 3 of your 5 guys into the enemy side first to win first turn. Rules are in the next WD or I can share them if there's interest?
I also asked him a specific question about the allies matrix- had they considered making changes to the allies matrix via codexes or having supplements be different enough to warrant their own line in the matrix? (I was angling towards the next tyranid codex letting them take allies, or maybe a genestealer cult supplement that could ally with guard/orks/tau or whatever). His answer was essentially yes, they have talked about that a good amount and it may well happen. So that's interesting:) He also said he felt the current allies matrix was too restrictive and he wanted to give players more freedom and to trust the players not to exploit that, which I pass on without comment:P

[Jormengand]

Kharybdis Assault Claw:

What's with GW and the current obsession with Charybdis?

[Rakaydos]

Salamanders are more neutral good, as much as anything in the Imperium could not be lawful. Salamanders protect people because its their duty, Imperial Fists do their duty because its what will protect people*.

Space Wolves are Chaotic Good.

[Squark]

Space Wolves are Chaotic Good.

Depends on the era, and the temperment of the Great Wolf. The Implication in the Horus Heresy Novels is that Bjorn's idealism has shaped the wolves to be a good bit different than they where under Russ.

[Cheesegear]

He also said he felt the current allies matrix was too restrictive and he wanted to give players more freedom and to trust the players not to exploit that, which I pass on without comment.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh Jervis, you so silly.

[lord_khaine]

I was also reminded by the Eldar player that Captain Brage is a new and improved Captain Falcon. I'll need to get him to punch out an Avatar soon.

Good luck finding one :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

Power outages while playing Apocalypse are not fun. Night fighting rules automatically in effect? :smalltongue: We decided not, but having to fumble around looking for dice in the dark with a flashlight was irritating.

I wound up losing, but still had plenty of firepower back behind my defense lines; it just wasn't letting me get out into the midfield onto objectives. I think I might wind up investing in another three Chimeras and building a mechanized infantry company to serve the purpose. Marbo did gib a Chaos Champion in a challenge and then made mincemeat out of his squad (rescuing some poor Blood Angels Assault Marines in the process, whose sergeant had been refusing challenges for some reason :smallamused:) before the assault was joined by a Dreadnought. :smallfrown:

Speaking of vehicles, the local club has a guy who buys junk models off of eBay and restores and paints them for fun, but he hardly ever plays, so he does his thing and then winds up selling them off in job lots. He offered me a Vendetta and four Russes and told me he'd throw in some miscellaneous Guard infantry he also had. We made a deal, and when he showed up... well I didn't realize that by "some infantry" he'd meant enough Catachans to actually make that ambush patrol formation. :smallbiggrin: A couple of the Russes are made from the old kit too, which is interesting.

[Cheesegear]

Space Wolves are Chaotic Good.

All loyalist Space Marines are Lawful. With most of them falling into Lawful Neutral, and some others falling into Lawful A*hole. That's kind of the point of being a Space Marine and why so many people find them boring as characters.

To continue this discussion, go to the Fluff Thread.


He offered me a Vendetta and four Russes and told me he'd throw in some miscellaneous Guard infantry he also had. We made a deal, and when he showed up... well I didn't realize that by "some infantry" he'd meant enough Catachans to actually make that ambush patrol formation.

That's amazing! But, I'll admit that I'm doing the same thing with a lot of my things too. People want to buy all my vehicles, so I throw in Infantry and a crap-tonne of bitz for free because I'm not using them anymore and I can't seem to sell them (It's like nobody wants DE Wyches anymore...Weird, right?).

[Eldan]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh Jervis, you so silly.

We have that as a shop house rule, actually. Everyone can ally with everyone. So far, no problems. Forces that I remember right now are my own Eldar/Tyranids (the eldar are controlling them psionically), Dark Eldar/IG (I think there was some fluff about slaves and brain controlling implants) and Tyranid/IG genestealers.

[bluntpencil]

Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard makes a lot of sense, considering the recent fluff for Only War, where non-Chaotic renegades in the Severan Dominate ally with Dark Eldar, and they are basically armed and equipped like Guardsmen.

[Adrastos42]

This raises the question then, since I'm not good enough to answer it myself, how utterly terrible and unbalancing would it be if everyone could ally freely? I mean, I assume there would be plenty of utterly broken combos, but I don't know most of the books well enough to actually think of them...

And assuming the first option was completely unbalanced, would it be possible to keep it balanced (or no less balanced than now, anyway) if all that was done was the removal of "come the apocolypse" but the current system of battle brothers-allies of convenience-desperate allies was kept so that the most broken combos did have a disadvantage?

[Tehnar]

I think the biggest deal would be if everyone could battle brother. Off the top of my head, orks + eldar psychic support.

Desperate allies for all wouldn't change all that much IMO.

Then again, don't think allies bring as much to the party as they did at the start of 6th, and will bring even less as more armies are updated.

[Eldan]

I don't think the allies matrix has much to do with the power of the armies in question anyway.

[Volthawk]

I don't think the allies matrix has much to do with the power of the armies in question anyway.

Particularly since the matrix was made at the beginning of 6e, and there's been a fair few updates since then which messed with relative power levels.

[Adrastos42]

Huh, so it's entirely conceivable silly Jervis might somewhat get his way next edition then? Well, I'm happy with more options and tyranids not getting quite so screwed:)

[lord_khaine]

Good evening people.

I were hoping for some feedback on my 1200 point army list, build on the rules of "no triplicates outside of troops" as well as "no allies" and "0-2 flyers".


Seer Robin, farseer, singing spear.
8 Dire Avengers.
8 Dire Avengers.
8 Striking scorpions, exarch with claw.
6 warp spiders.
5 Dark reapers, exarch with fast shot and night vision.
Wave serpent, Bright lance, Holofield
Fire Prism, Holofield
Wraith Lord, bright lance, Ghost glaive.


I know my opponents will be a mixture of Space Marine chapters, Tau, Deamons, Necrons and a IG player.

And the current battleplan is to shoot everyone, then jump up and down on the remains :smalltongue:

[Kosall]

In case anyone here doesn't follow the blogs and news Frontline Gaming is having a fire sale - 25% off almost everything they can order. http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/10/01/the-25-off-sale-starts-tomorrow-wednesday-and-ends-tuesday-october-8th/

[Yaktan]

With that list, how are you going to deal with flyers?

[Cheesegear]

I were hoping for some feedback on my 1200 point army list

'Kay. But, just to be clear, I had to do the whole thing again with points values included just in case you weren't on the dot - which you weren't - and it actually did turn out that I needed the extra points in the end.


Farseer; Singing Spear - 105 Points
Dire Avengers (x8) - 104 Points
Dire Avengers (x8) - 104 Points

Looks good to me. Since it's pretty much every Eldar core list that there is.


Striking Scorpions (x8); Exarch; Scorpion's Claw - 176 Points
Warp Spiders (x6) - 114 Points

Do you really need the Claw? I'll say yes until I can do something with that 30 Points.


Dark Reapers (x5); Exarch; Fast Shot, Night Vision - 175 Points
Wave serpent; Bright lance, Holofield - 135 Points

Feel free to drop Fast Shot. That makes 40 wasted points.
What is the 'Serpent doing with Dark Reapers? Do you ever plan on starting the Reapers inside the 'Serpent? 'Cause that sounds really dumb. The 'Serpent should really be going with your Scorpions, or, at least one of the Dire Avenger units. Drop Holo-Fields, makes +55 Points, swap the Bright Lance for a Scatter Laser and now you can shoot at Fliers.


Fire Prism; Holofield - 140 Points
Wraithlord; Ghostglaive, Bright Lance - 145 Points

Why does the Wraithlord cost more than a Fire Prism? Also, it's really out of place in the rest of your army which is all regular Infantry. Drop the 'Lord.

Now you're sitting on 1198, that makes +202 Points. What can you do what that? ...A lot of things.

Wraithblades (x6); Ghost Axe and Forceshield - 192 Points.

Since you've dropped the Claw on the Scorpions, you need something to punch face in Assault. Wraithblades'll work.

Dire Avengers (x6) - 198 Points
Wave Serpent; Twin-Linked Scatter Laser

You can't go wrong with more Troops. But, you can switch around your numbers to be 8/7/7. Point is, more Troops, and another Wave Serpent! Who doesn't love that?

Dire Avengers (x7); Exarch - 101 Points
Aegis Defense Line; Quad-Gun - 100 Points

Aren't I lucky that I didn't have to go through my Codex just to make sure that you could spare the extra 1 Point? Oh, I did have to do that.
...Since when did we not include points values in our army lists? :smallconfused:

Anyway, more Troops with a Cover Save. Flier Defense that actually works.

Support Battery (x2) Vibro Cannons - 60 Points
Fire Prism - 125 Points

Drop the Holo-Field on your other Fire Prism, and the throw a Warlock into the Battery. Or, instead of the Battery/Warlock, add a 5-man unit of Dire Avengers, then swap them to 8/7/6. Because more Troops. Point is, another Fire Prism.

Jetbikes (x6); x2 Shuriken Cannons - 122 Points
Jetbikes (x4); Shuriken Cannon - 78 Points

More Troops.

...And, that's all I can think of.

[Kosall]

I have a question about captains and sergeants. It says they can choose off the ranged, melee and special tables. Can they then use that to choose a pistol and retain their bolt pistol to make use of gunslinger? And could you then do that for Bike sergeants? I admit to wanting to model a guy firing two pistols from the back of his bike...

[Cheesegear]

I have a question about captains and sergeants. It says they can choose off the ranged, melee and special tables. Can they then use that to choose a pistol and retain their bolt pistol to make use of gunslinger?

"A model can replace his Bolt Pistol and/or Melee Weapon with one of the following" - page 159

So, yes. You can swap the 'or Melee weapon' for a Plasma Pistol.

[lord_khaine]

'Kay. But, just to be clear, I had to do the whole thing again with points values included just in case you weren't on the dot - which you weren't - and it actually did turn out that I needed the extra points in the end.

Thanks a lot, i was not expecting more than general suggestions along with "remove that" or buy more of those, so i did not add point vaules.


Do you really need the Claw? I'll say yes until I can do something with that 30 Points

The Claw is kinda a favorite, mostly because it sits on a great (by my standard) conversion of Karandas impaling a guardsman on it, and also because it seems like the claw does the majority of the work in the unit.

Else, i had brought all the Bright lances because the Land Raider is the favorite vehicle in my metagame, and im sure more than 1 person in the league is going to bring 2 next round, where they can be really hard to deal with.

Meanwhile i am sure not to face more that at top 2 flyers, so i were mostly going to either ignore them for more important stuff, or else hunt them down with Guided Warp Spiders.

Regarding the holo-fields, then we have quite a lot of city terrain, and i were expecting to get at least a 3+ cover save with it each turn, isnt that worth the price.

In light of this, are there any suggestions you would chance?

Else, i mostly brought the Wraithlord to spread out the heavy weapon targets, and because its one of the more versatile units i have, having the gear for fighting both soft and hard targets.

Still, i had really been considering a Wraithblade unit, perhaps lead by either another Psyker or a phoenix lord later in the league.

But are they really that good at stomping people in CC?

[Renegade Paladin]

Frustrating moments in wargaming: Dropping a squad of melta-toting veterans commanded by Sergeant Bastonne out of the back of a Valkyrie, dead on target five inches from the rear armor of a Defiler. One Bring it Down! order, three direct hits, three armor penetration rolls of 15+, and three successes on a damnable 5+ invulnerable save later, and I'm left with ten very expensive Guardsmen standing in the open in the enemy backfield having accomplished absolutely nothing. :smallsigh:

Actually, making 5+ saves was the order of the day for the Marines and Chaos, but not the Guard in that particular Apocalypse game. They actually started a running tally of successful cover saves (only counting ones that managed to save a unit from destruction) that totaled somewhere around 25 in four game turns. A Librarian Dreadnought drop podded right in the middle of my Aegis line complex, finagled an assault on my Baneblade, and proceeded to Shield of Sanguinius away the fire of two quad guns, an Icarus lascannon, three lascannons, two krak missiles (the third heavy weapon team in the squad was manning the Icarus), and everything my plasma command squad and their Chimera could throw at its side armor for two whole game turns without suffering damage. :smallfurious:

On the plus side, after Marbo's grossly outsized performance, I think I'm going to play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI1VpElKWF8) when he comes in from reserve from now on. :smallcool:

[Wraith]

On the plus side, after Marbo's grossly outsized performance, I think I'm going to play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI1VpElKWF8) when he comes in from reserve from now on. :smallcool:

In my own experience, there is no such thing as a "grossly outsized performance" from Marbo; he enters the field, and your most expensive unit is wiped out or horribly, horribly crippled shortly thereafter. :smalleek:

That's what he does. I'm just sorry that the Rambo films don't have any particularly famous theme music, since that's basically who he is. :smalltongue:


Else, i mostly brought the Wraithlord to spread out the heavy weapon targets, and because its one of the more versatile units i have, having the gear for fighting both soft and hard targets.

I can kinda see what you mean here, but one Wraithlord is like one Avatar - he can't get anywhere quickly, his saving throws aren't all that good and he's the biggest, most obvious target in your army. Even if you get the first turn, his lifespan is very likely limited to the first half of the game, if that.

Take two, or none at all, is my advice. If you choose none at all, consider swapping him for another Gravtank and abuse the hell out of their Fast Vehicle/Cover Saves for pretty much the same role. :smallsmile:


Still, i had really been considering a Wraithblade unit, perhaps lead by either another Psyker or a phoenix lord later in the league.

But are they really that good at stomping people in CC?

Wraithblades are great - at the very least, they'll take a big, wet bite out of any other unit on the table before they die, if not grinding them down into submission first. Even their biggest drawback - their points cost - isn't all that bad when you compare them to other armies' units in similar roles, such as Immortals and Terminators (Hint: Wraithblades will murderize Terminators for virtually the same cost :smallwink: )

Leading them with a Psyker is, in my opinion, too high risk. Neither the Spiritseers or Farseers should be on the front line getting into challenges, which is what WILL happen, but a Phoenix Lord could be amusing.

Everyone knows that Karandras and Asurman are great, but Wraithblades can mke surprisingly good use of Jain Zar, too. Although Howling Banshees are even less popular than in 5th Edition, she is still perfectly capable of cracking heads with abandon glee, and her equipment is just what you need to make the Wraithblades' rather average I4 less of a problem.

[lord_khaine]

Take two, or none at all, is my advice. If you choose none at all, consider swapping him for another Gravtank and abuse the hell out of their Fast Vehicle/Cover Saves for pretty much the same role.


The people have spoken, then i will replace him with a SL-Wave serpent, so i can stuff both my units of Dire Avengers into them.

I can then considder 2 wraithlords and a Avatar for the next round.


Wraithblades are great - at the very least, they'll take a big, wet bite out of any other unit on the table before they die, if not grinding them down into submission first. Even their biggest drawback - their points cost - isn't all that bad when you compare them to other armies' units in similar roles, such as Immortals and Terminators (Hint: Wraithblades will murderize Terminators for virtually the same cost )

I will try and get some for next round then, and maybe let them replace the scorpions.


Leading them with a Psyker is, in my opinion, too high risk. Neither the Spiritseers or Farseers should be on the front line getting into challenges, which is what WILL happen, but a Phoenix Lord could be amusing.

But the Psyker would then just say "¤%&&¤ you" to anyone challenging him, and let the Wraithblades do their job while he hides in the back, so i dont see the challenge issue, i dont lose anything from refusing it?
And a Spiritseer to give Wraithblades both a 2+ cover save and spirit mark and something else thats also funny, just seems like such a good investment.
(besides making them troops of course).


Everyone knows that Karandras and Asurman are great, but Wraithblades can mke surprisingly good use of Jain Zar, too. Although Howling Banshees are even less popular than in 5th Edition, she is still perfectly capable of cracking heads with abandon glee, and her equipment is just what you need to make the Wraithblades' rather average I4 less of a problem.

Actualy i think Jain Zar or Karandras is better placed in a unit of regular Wraithguards. its not like they both wont murder their way though almost any unit of elite infantery on their own, so now they can instead help the Wraithguards avoid getting swarmed down in melee.

Wraithblades on the other hand, i would rather pair up with Fuegan or Maugan Ra, who can blow stuff up from afar as the blades march down the battlefield.

[Wraith]

I can then considder 2 wraithlords and a Avatar for the next round.

Probably one of the better ways to use the Avatar, I think; hide him behind something big and tough like Wraithlords for a Cover Save until he can run out and stab something. :smalltongue:


But the Psyker would then just say "¤%&&¤ you" to anyone challenging him, and let the Wraithblades do their job while he hides in the back, so i dont see the challenge issue, i dont lose anything from refusing it?
And a Spiritseer to give Wraithblades both a 2+ cover save and spirit mark and something else thats also funny, just seems like such a good investment.
(besides making them troops of course).

I'm not entirely sure why I wrote "Challenges", as I meant "Assault". Farseers shouldn't be within arm's reach of anything half competent, not when there's a nice sturdy building to hide behind nearby. And I keep forgetting that Spiritseers get Conceal, for some reason - I might still be equating them with "mini Farseers" rather than "special Warlock". Sorry! :smallredface:


Wraithblades on the other hand, i would rather pair up with Fuegan or Maugan Ra, who can blow stuff up from afar as the blades march down the battlefield.

A good point about putting them with Wraithguard, but whether or not to put one special gun into a unit of Assault-orientated troops is always one that I debate with myself.
On the one hand, the unit as a whole can try to achieve something before it gets within 12", which is a good thing. On the other, even the cheap Phoenix Lords are expensive and I'm not easily convinced that one long-ranged 'Fusion Gun' shot per turn will reliably make a difference. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

On the plus side, after Marbo's grossly outsized performance, I think I'm going to play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI1VpElKWF8) when he comes in from reserve from now on. :smallcool:

My Elysians always play Flight of the Valkyries during just about every reserve phase. :p

[lord_khaine]

Probably one of the better ways to use the Avatar, I think; hide him behind something big and tough like Wraithlords for a Cover Save until he can run out and stab something.

Yeah, it really hurt him to lose his 4++ safe, as well as as the certain fortune from a Farseer.

I fear you would need something like a Wraithknight to really draw the fire away from him.

Or a better way to shield him than with a Wraithlord, would proberly be with a Wave serpents, that also can get a cover save.

Actually, that might be the way to shield the entire Avatar/wraithlord advantage, with a couple of Wave Serpents.


I'm not entirely sure why I wrote "Challenges", as I meant "Assault". Farseers shouldn't be within arm's reach of anything half competent, not when there's a nice sturdy building to hide behind nearby. And I keep forgetting that Spiritseers get Conceal, for some reason - I might still be equating them with "mini Farseers" rather than "special Warlock". Sorry!

Well, thats the purpuse of the Wraithblades, to carve up annoying things like that.
And the more i think about it, the more i like the idea of a unit Wraithblades lead by a spirit Seer. Just about all the rolls on Rune of Battles would rock for them, and spirit Mark would make a nice difference as well on their charge.


A good point about putting them with Wraithguard, but whether or not to put one special gun into a unit of Assault-orientated troops is always one that I debate with myself.

My reasoning here is that its a unit that wont spend much time in melee combat because most people would avoid them. in that case they might as well be able to do something at a distance.


On the one hand, the unit as a whole can try to achieve something before it gets within 12", which is a good thing. On the other, even the cheap Phoenix Lords are expensive and I'm not easily convinced that one long-ranged 'Fusion Gun' shot per turn will reliably make a difference.

Oh, but its also 2 BS 7 shots ;)

[Yaktan]

Had annother game last night. This one ended up as a tie, with my opponent going from substatially losing to the tie on turn seven by charging 13ish kroot with a single striking scorpian, killing one, and then wiping them out when they ran away.

Things of note:
Falcons with a farseer inside buffing them are both effective and annoying to deal with.

A serpent shield does not make a wave serpent able to withstand the might of 5 fusion blasters.

Dark reapers are quite good at what they do with such long range. Also, his dark reapers were some sort of commandos, since they would routinely get 7-8 wounds on people with only four guys shooting.

Shadowsun with crisis suits does a great job at tank hunting, as well as tanking lots of firepower when sitting in cover. What finally killed them, was, as usual, sticking too close to the enemy and getting assaulted.

I need more long range firepower or something. I was basically unable to touch his dark reapers the entire game.

Charging people with 3-bike squads is a poor plan. Especially when the people in question have lots of ap 2 shots, plus flamers. Though getting first blood on overwatch is amusing.

[Cheesegear]

Well, Codex: Adepta Sororitas is confirmed. It's also confirmed that it's an online Codex, that it's a copy-paste of the White Dwarf Codex with a Warlord Table and Ecclesiarchy Relics. That's it. Price unconfirmed. Be prepared to be underwhelmed, and likely full of rage.

[thereaper]

Forgive my ignorance, but how do online codexes work, anyway?

[Cheesegear]

Forgive my ignorance, but how do online codexes work, anyway?

There's no physical copy. You have to buy it from iTunes.
"Don't have an iPad? Suck it." - GW, paraphrased.

Although, for some things, GW splashes to Android/Kindle devices, but, there's no way to know if they're going to do that until the product comes out.

[Wraith]

Well, Codex: Adepta Sororitas is confirmed. It's also confirmed that it's an online Codex, that it's a copy-paste of the White Dwarf Codex with a Warlord Table and Ecclesiarchy Relics. That's it. Price unconfirmed. Be prepared to be underwhelmed, and likely full of rage.

I might get some flak for this, but even with this knowledge I am still tempted to try and pick up a Sororitas army at some point.

Okay, they're just Marines-lite with some particularly underwhelming special rules..... But I love the models and the fluff, just like I did Witchhunters before Grey Knights took all of their best stuff. :smalltongue:

Hmm.... I think I'll wait and see after Codex: 'Nids comes out. I have also always wanted a Tyranids army, but the last Codex just doesn't do what I wanted it to - if the new one is more of the same thing, then I could probably do worse than fight an Assault-orientated Flavour-of-the-Month opponent with a bunch of girls carrying copious amounts of Heavy/Flamers.... :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

There's no physical copy. You have to buy it from iTunes.
"Don't have an iPad? Suck it." - GW, paraphrased.

Although, for some things, GW splashes to Android/Kindle devices, but, there's no way to know if they're going to do that until the product comes out.

Some things that started out online only, end up getting print copies (Iyanden, Farsight Enclaves).

Maybe Adepta Sororitas will be the same.

[thereaper]

There's no physical copy. You have to buy it from iTunes.
"Don't have an iPad? Suck it." - GW, paraphrased.

Although, for some things, GW splashes to Android/Kindle devices, but, there's no way to know if they're going to do that until the product comes out.

But does it only work on the iPad?

[Cheesegear]

Some things that started out online only, end up getting print copies (Iyanden, Farsight Enclaves).

What physical copies? :smallconfused:


But does it only work on the iPad?

Yes. That's how Apple makes its money. That's how iTunes/iBooks and exclusivity contracts work. iBooks, is, in itself, not an eReader, which means you can't read it on any Windows device, you can only download it.

Like I said, if they splash to Kindle/Android, it would make it better. But, we don't know that they're going to do that until they do it.

[Tome]

But does it only work on the iPad?
Pretty much. Isn't DRM wonderful. :smallannoyed:


What physical copies? :smallconfused:

Iyanden got a physical print run and Farsight Enclaves is slated to get the same.

[Cheesegear]

Iyanden got a physical print run and Farsight Enclaves is slated to get the same.

When? Why don't I have one or both of those? What about Black Legion or Sentinels of Terra?

Farsight and Black Legion have an eBook Editions (not iBook, totally different), but Iyanden doesn't. That's about all I can find, and why I actually have those, but not Iyanden.


EDIT: Okay, apparently there is a physical copy of Iyanden. But it's $83AUD. That's the same as other full Codecies! Let's take a look; Iyanden is 72 pages, Codex: Eldar, is 104. ...That's crazy.

[Forrestfire]

Isn't Iyanden like... 2 pages of the stuff that actually matters in the game?

[Cheesegear]

Isn't Iyanden like... 2 pages of the stuff that actually matters in the game?

Yeah, but it's got Planetstrike stuff! And Cities of Death stuff! And Spearhead (does anyone even remember that failure?)! It's totally worth a full-priced Codex!

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, but it's got Planetstrike stuff! And Cities of Death stuff! And Spearhead (does anyone even remember that failure?)! It's totally worth a full-priced Codex!
I remember it. And it was a failure because they never promoted the damned thing. :smalltongue:

[Badgercloak]

Can't wait till next weekend, I just finished my Bike Command Squad, Kasarro Khan, and Chaplain. Plus my friend is going to field IG with Eldar allies.

[Calsan]

*delurk mode* So I had a 500 point battle two weeks ago that I wanted to share here. He (my opponent) basicly plays in a campaign that can challenge neutral parties (aka me) to get more points in future battles. He is my most regular opponent and I played his Necrons a couple of times.

Space marines vs Necrons

Lists
Space marines (me)
Ultra marine tactics

Captain Targiso 105 points
with powersword and bolter

10 marine Tactical squad 205 points
with flamer and misslelauncher
Sarge with chainsword and boltpistol
Rhino

5 Scout squad 67 points
3 x sniper and a heavy bolter
sarge with sniper rifle

Thyphoon pattern landspeeder 75 points

Attack bike with multi melta 55 points

Necrons (not sure about everything two weeks later and everything)

Necron Lord (had some equipment but not mindshackles)

8 warriors

8 warriors

Annihilation Barge

2 Wraiths


Battle report

So we played on a 4 feet x 4 feet board with 2 forests and a battlescape on one side and 3 buildings on the other and a aquilla in the middle, a few walls in the middle to finish it of.

Dawn of war deployment and the scouring mission so six objectives and fast attack scores.

So two objectives where near my side in the buildings and two in the forests on the other. 1 was in the middle on the aquilla and 1 was in a building in the middle (which was mostly ignored during the battle) My warlord rolled the champion of humanity warlord trait

So He deployed first with his warriors on the objectives and the lord attached to the wraights in the middle, and the annihilation barge on the right side
I deployed my scouts in the building just of the left of the middle, the tactical squad was combat squadded 1 squad with the captain and flamer and sarge in the rhino in the middle between the buildings. And the other on the left side with the missle launcher. The bike and the Landspeeder were both deployed behind the buildings to break line of sight.

Turn 1 The big suprise

So starting thusly I promptly seized the initiative (lucky me):smallamused:. I moved my landspeeder out of cover to face his annihilation barge same as the bike which went for the middle objective (of four points later revealed. Moved the rhino forward and moved my combat squad forward towards the objective near them which turned out to be sabotaged and worth one point.

I shot with my scouts on the wraights and got one wound on them. My landspeeder and bike shot the annihilation barge and promptly blew it up. This was a big suprise for both of us. First blood to me.

In his turn he moved up his wraights and lord. Tried to shoot my attack bike but did nothing.
He assaulted with his wraights my landspeeder which he then blew up as well. Causing one wound to himself with the resulting explosion. Also one of my missile squad died.

Turn 2 a slow turn

In my turn I moved up my bike on the objective in the middle and rhino and disembarked, my combat squad with the missile I moved to the right towards the right side objective.

I sniped his wraights again did nothing my captain and his squad shot at the lord as did the attack bike. Did nothing.

He then moved his wraigthts back towards my squad in the middle and shot with his right side warriors and lord on my squad in the middle didn't do much shot. He charged with his lord on my captain and then with his wraights. In that combat I challenged him he had to accept. The captain and the lord slug it out and did nothing to each other. The combat squad fought of the wraights and caused them to well die.... Big surprise to both of us. He lost his leadership, I won the resulting sweeping advance and killed off his lord, who didn't come back following that. Getting Kill the warlord. At this time I was way ahead in points.

Turn 3 The final turning point

My attack held the middle objective and my captain and his squad advanced towards his right warriors, my missle squad then took my right objective which just increased my lead.
My snipers started sniping the left side warriors getting a few hits and kills, my captain (and squad) and bike shot at the warriors in the middle, getting only 2 kills. They both came back

He started shooting at me with his warriors after shuffling a bit.

Turn 4 The end

My captain and his squad moved up again and started to shoot their pistols and flamers, doing little damage but they were in assault range

My scouts sniped the left side warriors again getting enough kills to force a morale check, which he failed. (by now the luck of dice was just a matter of fact against my opponent)
My cap and squad charged his other warriors and started to kill off them in one round he failed to damage me as I damaged him and I swept him of the board. Tableling him. :smalleek:

After action.
In retrospect I was very lucky in the beginning but after gaining the initiative I never really lost it. I should have probably deployed a few things better and shouldn't have forgotten my runs and the new tactics(was new to those....), but still I won the match which was a good plus. He commented that I did most things right and was very unlucky himself. Later when we discussed things he said he was to static with his warriors leaving them in the cover when he should have advanced.

It was a enjoyable match and we both had a lot of fun.


So next time I wanted to make a diffrent list to fight him on 500, apperently he said it was a though list to crack and he was suprised of how much I could fit in there. :smallsmile:
I myself wanted to keep the base tac squad and the scouts in but I want to try something else. Does anyone have a good suggestion. (must mention no flyers, was a rule)

[Drasius]

This might be a bit of a long post, but since it's been slow here, I guess that won't matter so much.

So, after being conned into buying DoW many, many moons ago by a friend and loving it to bits, I started reading the books, and liked those too. After many more years of lurking forums (this one and 3++ mainly), I finally got around to actually watching a game today (1420 points of farsight enclaves slaughtering 1500 points of Dark Angels, talk about a lopsided match!), asking questions and generally looking to start an army.

The meta here in Cairns as far as I can gather is not overly competative, normal points level is 1500, armies played are Tau, Tau, Eldar, Blood Angels, Khorne, Nurgle, Dark Angels, Vanilla Marines with maybe a new IG army coming and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I don't know about.

Unfortunately, while I already know what I would like to play thematically (Thousand Sons), I also know What I like =//= What is good and that 1k sons is right down the bottom of the tier list.

I am also quite partial to the ultramarines, but again, mostly, what I like =//= what is good (whirlwinds, assault marines, vanguard, shootynators, landraiders, dreads, plasma cannons, lascannons, heavy bolters), while a couple of things are actually OK (librarians, landspeeders, vindicators).

Unfortunately, the opposite is true, in that what is good =//= what I like (bikes, TFC, stormtalon, melta)

To this end, now that I've had a squizz around, watched a game, spoken to a blackshirt and some of the players, given that there's no Tzeentch army to try, nor anyone who plays it up here, what's my next step?

Big Black Book & Chaos Codex, then figure out what I want to get from there, knowing I'll be playing a poor army from the start that is not well suited to a newbie

or

BBB, C:SM and a SM Strikeforce box given that it has the basic beginnings to a drop pod army that I think I would quite like?

[Wraith]

Your first step is to go back to the store and watch a few more games, and then ask very politely if your store would allow you to borrow models and have them "Count As" a Tzeentch army for a little while.

Unless this is something only local to me (and I live in Nottingham, where GW has it's HQ and a half-dozen stores within an hour's drive) most stores and their staff have a wide selection of stuff that's on show, and often they won't mind letting you try them out in a small game if you're looking to buy something shortly there after, even if you're only practicing and your opponent doesn't mind using his imagination a little bit.

In doing this, not only do you learn the rules and make some friends, but you can see if your hunch about what you may/may not like is true, and what else there is to do. :smallsmile:

In terms of "what's a good army to play", however, then Codex: CSM is a perfectly good choice. You can build some VERY good lists once you know what you're doing, so you don;t have a lot to fear from building an outright poor army. And until you've gotten a list that you're comfortable with it has a wide range of different units, from Infantry and Jump Infantry to Tanks and Monstrous Creatures, that you can try out and learn about.

If nothing else, remember that this is an expensive hobby and you will end up extremely disappointed if you buy an army that you don't really like because those units will go to waste.
First and foremost, buy an army a) that you can legally use and b) that you actually like the look and theme of. That way, even if you lose and lose hard, you get pleasure just out of using and owning a big spiky dude with a bloodstained mace in his hand, and not some puny blue alien thing.... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Grim Portent]

Thousand Sons aren't bad as such, they just have a few weaknesses that are hard for them to shore up. With the right support they can devastate any marine armies they fight but unless you're careful with how you build the list then any army that uses lots of weaker infantry will just grind them down.

Normal Tzeentch aligned stuff is poor in the current rules, the invulnerable save is poor, most of the time cover saves will be better, and the icon gives your units one of the most pointless rules in the game.

Tzeentch aligned terminators and obliterators (and to a lesser extent posessed and warp talons) are among the hardest things in the game to shift since they ignore most of the stuff that hurts terminators an extra 16% of the time.

Tzeentch lords and sorcerers with a sigil of corruption get a 3+ invulnerable, which is nice, though the tzeentch psychic powers are rather lackluster.

If I was playing Thousand Sons I think I'd put a focus on cultists and thousand sons units for my troops with a rhino for each sons squad, havocs with lascannons/missile launchers for some hard hitting anti tank, sorcerers for my HQs, Dreadnoughts in the elite slots for some extra close quarters defense and a little more anti tank potential and most likely heldrakes in the fast attack.

It wouldn't be particularly strong as an army but it would be able to win at least sometimes.

[Tehnar]

Why don't you do 1k sons with Daemon allies to shore up any weaknesses?

[Cheesegear]

I also know What I like =//= What is good and that 1k sons is right down the bottom of the tier list.

Thousand Sons boast horrendously poor anti-vehicle capabilities, which is their main weakness. Their other weakness is that they have exactly one role in an army, and that's never going to change. They can kill Marines. That's it. If they're shooting at Terminators, they do nothing much. If they're shooting at 5+ or worse armour, they're simply really expensive for no benefit.

Which brings me to my next point; The cost. Thousand Sons are the most expensive Troops unit in a Codex bleeding expensive non-Troop units, given that Sons have exactly one role ever, forever, you rely on your non-Troops to pick up the slack, which you don't have because you don't have the points.

A way to significantly help the Sons is to Ally in some Heralds of Tzeentch with Divination to ensure that their one role isn't negated, but, Daemons don't have cheap anti-tank either - so that's a problem. Or, bring in some Guard to bring cheap anti-tank.

All-in-all, Thousand Sons are not a stand-alone army. They just can't be.


Big Black Book & Chaos Codex, then figure out what I want to get from there, knowing I'll be playing a poor army from the start that is not well suited to a newbie

Heldrakes and Land Raiders. I hope you've got cheap Troops...Wait...


BBB, C:SM and a SM Strikeforce box given that it has the basic beginnings to a drop pod army that I think I would quite like?

If you aren't going to spam Bikes, spamming Drop Pods is the next best thing.

[ZeltArruin]

If you aren't going to spam Bikes, spamming Drop Pods is the next best thing.

If he is going for a Drop Pod army, wouldn't Wolves make a better primary?

[Cheesegear]

If he is going for a Drop Pod army, wouldn't Wolves make a better primary?

Sounds like someone is using lists from before a new Marine Codex.

If you were doing Loganwing and already had a 'bank' of models with Special Weapons, sure. If you're only just starting out, then no.

Ultramarines' popping Tactical Doctrine out of Drop Pods is amazingly amazing. Devastator Doctrine allows you to re-roll all of your Overwatch shots in case you get Charged, but, seriously, TD out of a Drop Pod is bananas. Then, next turn, if you have Tigurius as your Warlord (why not?), you can then throw out two - two - Presciences because why not?

Then you've got Salamanders who have super good Flamers, and, if you've brought He'Stan (why not?), Salamanders get 'Tactical Doctrine' on all their Melta weapons.

Tactical Squad (x10); Meltagun, Combi-Melta - 160 Points
Grey Hunters (x10); x2 Meltaguns - 155 Points
Drop Pods are the same so cancel out.

Grey Hunters have Counter-Attack. If you're playing against Tau, or Necrons, or even Eldar, that is probably going to be a useless trait.
For 5 Points, Marines get a Character and
UMs; Re-roll all 1s for a turn.
Sals; Re-roll 1s on their Melta weapons

Drop Wolves are still good, but Marines now do it better unless you're playing with Loganwing with x4 Special Weapons in every unit.

[ZeltArruin]

Sounds like someone is using lists from before a new Marine Codex.

Completely forgot about doctrines, kinda matters a bit.

[lord_khaine]

By the way, if my meta-game is allmost empty of grav weapons and sniper rifles, would a Wraithknight then be a good investment?

[Penguinizer]

Heldrakes and Land Raiders. I hope you've got cheap Troops...Wait...


Land Raiders are a thing now for Chaos? I really should get around to playing WH40k again (and painting my pre-heresy army). I knew I didn't buy/greenstuff/paint those used Land Raiders for nothing.

Also, does my current/old army list of: 3 squads of Plaguemarines in Rhinos, 2 Predators or a few groups of Obliterators, 3 IG Veteran Squad allies and cheap HQ still work?

I haven't followed the meta/how people build chaos armies now at all.

[Cheesegear]

Land Raiders are a thing now for Chaos?

Land Raiders are a thing for 6th Edition in general, and one of the main reasons that Chaos (and Dark Angels) are still viable. Complete and total immunity to Wave Serpents (which one has Wraithguard/Fire Dragons in it? I shoot that one), and resistance to Tau.


I haven't followed the meta/how people build chaos armies now at all.

Typhus, Plague Zombies, Plague Marines, Heldrakes and 'Raiders seems to be top, or, at least really good.

Other build is Huron Blackheart and Land Raiders.

[Tehnar]

By the way, if my meta-game is allmost empty of grav weapons and sniper rifles, would a Wraithknight then be a good investment?

I think so. Though I don't think sniper rifles should worry you, and neither

Most things with sniper rifles hit on 4's and wound on 6's. With a 5+ cover or the shield that means 18 shots to do a single wound. Not that big of a deal.

I don't think grav guns are too troubling for the Wraithknight. With the constraints above you need on average 3.5 shots to deal 1 wound, so a bike squad with a melta will deal something like 2 wounds. The problem is that now they are within 18" which is a easy assault for the 'knight.

If there are too many grav guns on the field, and you can't stay out of range with the knight, you can always deep strike him, or move him on from reserve.

[Cheesegear]

Most things with sniper rifles hit on 4's and wound on 6's.

.5 x .5 x .33 = 0.08 (Normal, BS3)
.5 x .16 x .66 = 0.05 (Rending, with 5++)

Each Sniper weapon has a 13% chance of dealing a wound. A unit of 8 should deal exactly one Wound to a Wraithknight (how'd you get 18?). Again, still pretty terrible, but your numbers are all wrong.

Anyway, Wraithknights are amazing. Sniper weapons shouldn't bother you at all, and anything close enough to shoot a Grav-weapon at you, is close enough to Assault.

However, surprise, surprise, Wraithknights need to look out for Land Raiders with Twin-Linked Lascannons (Land Raiders are good, you say?) and Sternguard Drops...But a lot of things should be looking out for those.

[Penguinizer]

I'm curious, do people here play The Horus Heresy. I've got most of an army but I'm thinking of expanding it to 1750 points once I finish painting what I have at the moment.

Here's what I was thinking of using. It's based more on "thing I thought would be cool." over what's the best thing.

HQ:Legion Centurion, Cataphracti Terminator Armor, Volkite Charger, Thunderhammer, Siegebreaker consul, one Phosphex bomb. 157

Elites:
Apotechary, Artificer Armor. 55

Troops:
15x Breacher Siege Marine, 3x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Beaching Charge. 360
10x Breacher Siege Marine, 2x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Breaching Charge. 295
10x Breacher Siege Marine, 2x Meltagun, Legion Vexilla, Powerfist, Breaching Charge. 295

Heavy Support:
Medusa, Phosphex Shell. 155
Medusa, Phosphex Shell. 155

I still need to figure out what to get for the last 280 points. I need to save up for 15 more Breachers so I decided I might as well try to make it a 1750 point army.

I was considering either Rapier Weapon Batteries or Dreadnoughts (contemptor or otherwise).

[Tehnar]

.5 x .33 x .33 = 0.05 (Normal, BS3)
.5 x .16 x .66 = 0.05 (Rending, with 5++)

Each Sniper weapon has a 10% chance of dealing a wound. A unit of 10 should deal exactly one Wound to a Wraithknight (how'd you get 18?). Again, still pretty terrible, but your numbers are all wrong.

Anyway, Wraithknights are amazing. Sniper weapons shouldn't bother you at all, and anything close enough to shoot a Grav-weapon at you, is close enough to Assault.

However, surprise, surprise, Wraithknights need to look out for Land Raiders with Twin-Linked Lascannons (Land Raiders are good, you say?) and Sternguard Drops...But a lot of things should be looking out for those.

I didn't add the wounds form normal shots; for some reason was thinking snipers were S3, instead of wounding on a 4+. Thanks for the correction :smallsmile: In total that is 9 shots per wound.

[bluntpencil]

Has the Thunderfire Cannon on the Land Raider Achilles been updated to reflect the latest Codex: Space Marines? Just thinking that it's not quite as good as the fixed artillery piece.

Then again, it's unkillable.

[lord_khaine]

Ok thanks, i will certainly start looking at a Wraithknight then :smallsmile:

Though of course, it is rather expensive in cash, and i could instead gain buy a group of Warp spiders and Wraithblades for the same money.

But what does people here think is the wisest investment?

[Tehnar]

If you are strapped for cash, try proxying it out (or playing on Vassal) to see if it works for you. Proxy the alternatives as well so you can see what works best for you.

It also depends on the models you already have. Personally I would go for Warpspiders before Wraithknight before Wraithblades.

[lord_khaine]

Well, i am not that strapped for cash again, but a Wraith knight will take a rather huge chunk out of my budget, enough so that i wont buy anything else for a couple of months at least.

I do have a singel unit Warpspiders so far, and have generally liked the performance.

Though i was also considering making an at least slightly wraith themed list, with a unit of Guards and Blades in Wave serpents as the core, and then reinforced with a couple of the larger constructs and a fire Prism.

At the moment i have the wraithguards, the wave serpents, the fire prism and a couple of regular wraithlords.

[Ka-ther Fangfoot]

Well, with the fire prism and wraithlords, you don't have a slot left for the wraithknight.

[lord_khaine]

That just means i got a backup Wraithlord if i dont go out and buy a Wraithknight :smalltongue:

[Drasius]

Thanks for the pointers gents.

Will wander down and, if nothing else, grab the main rule book today.

the 2 very vauge lists I'm thinking of at the moment;

Thousand Sons

Sorc
-ML3, SoC, Spell Familiar

1K Sons
-8+Aspiring Sorc and Rhino
1K Sons
-8+Aspiring Sorc and Rhino

Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC
Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC
Forge Fiend
-Dual Hades AC

Allies
Herald
-ML2, Locus

Horrors
-9, more as points allow

Screamers
-3, more as points allow

Trading the forge fiends for Annihilator Preds (and some points to bulk up the daemons) would get me some nice AP2, but at the cost of AA.


Marines

Lib

Tacs
-Power Sword, Plasma, Pod
Tacs
-Power Sword, Melta, Pod
Tacs
-Power Sword, Flamer, Pod

Scouts
-Sniper Rifles

Dread
-MM, Pod

Assault
-Flamer, Pod

Land Speeder
-Dual MM
Land Speeder
-Dual HF

+~220 points? Maybe some shootynators or a space potato to deal with fliers? Drop both the Speeders and turn them into another pair of MM pod Dreads for 4 pods 1st turn?

[Cheesegear]

Ask four players how they started their game, and you'll get five different answers. Here's a refresher course.

1. Player A rolls Mission
2. Player B rolls Deployment
3. Roll to go first.
4. Place Fortifications in order of who goes first (if any)
5. Place Terrain. Yes, Fortifications are placed before any other terrain.
6. Place Objectives. Yes, before Deployment, not after.
7. Determine Warlord Traits
8. Determine Psychic Powers*
9. Both players Deploy armies in order of who goes first.
10. Deploy Infiltrators.
11. Redeploy Scouts.
12. Seize the Initiative.
13. Play.

*To Determine a Psychic Power, roll a die. Choose Primaris. Each power must be fully resolved before you roll for another Power.

Tournaments often have set tables with Terrain already on it, in this case, a Fortification replaces a piece of terrain already on the board, you don't actually get a free piece.

This is especially a pain in the arse when you realise that nobody proof-read anything when it comes to this order.

Space Marines must Combat Squad before Warlord Traits - when you know literally nothing except the Mission and terrain placement, ideally, you should also not see your opponents' models until Deployment, too.
Dark Angels choose to Combat Squad before Deployment. This is good because you know your Warlord Trait and Psychic Powers and can plan to have bigger or smaller squads accordingly. But, you don't know your opponent's army because no models have been placed on the board yet.

Blood Angels and Grey Knights choose to Combat Squad during Deployment, at the time that the unit is put on the table. This is easily the best since you have the most information available to you (i.e; If you deploy second, you've seen your opponent's army).

So, yeah. 4 Armies with 3 different rules for the same rule. :smallwink:

[Forrestfire]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines? :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines? :smallbiggrin:

And about fifty to play codex marines over BA? Yes.

[Cheesegear]

So... We now have a concrete reason to play Blood Angels over codex marines? :smallbiggrin:

Ever seen unkillable Corbulo? Blood Angels just have a different Chapter Tactics to regular Marines, that's all. They're not worse by any means. 1 in 6 of your units will have Fearless and Furious Charge, take a Character and get aura-FNP. Then, all your vehicles have Fast. Also, Blood Angels get Divination, because why not?

Blood Angels and Dark Angels still have reasons to exist, provided you don't just try and build a list you could just as easily get out of Codex Marines. And, if you really want a Stormtalon and Thunderfire Cannon like you do, just Ally them in.

[Eldan]

Tournaments often have set tables with Terrain already on it, in this case, a Fortification replaces a piece of terrain already on the board, you don't actually get a free piece.

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

[Volthawk]

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

Gun emplacements?

[Cheesegear]

What. Really? Then why would anyone ever bring fortifications?

AV14, 20-man Transports that are immune to Grav-weapons spring to mind.
4++ For everyone on top of it (Daemons break it).
Fortresses are usually banned.

Aegis Lines don't replace terrain. So, there's that exception.

And, also, a lot of the better players don't bring Fortifications because the other better players that they'll be playing against will generally try and find a way to take it from them.

[Timberwolf]

So, the new releases section of the GW site has the Sisters on it now.

For a second, until I scrolled down, I was hopeful. Maybe just a box of plastic sisters would be available, maybe. Just the one box needed to be plastic. The rest could be metal, I didn't care, but the basic box of troops, just to make sure that you don't need a couple of stalwart lads with a forklift to shift your army case for you, surely GW would have mercy on the weak arm muscles of legions of gamers...

Oh dear, oh dear.

I cannot understand GW's attitude to the Sisters. Its almost as if they actually want them to just go away, in which case, let them go the way of the Squat by all means, take the inevitable rage from the few remaining die hard Sisters players who can actually make the WD codex work and stop insulting us.

All these half hearted attempts to say "Yes, we're supporting them, no longer will we delete an army, we've learned, look, aren't we great, we're listening" are, frankly, an insult to people's intelligence. "Supporting" them by charging £50 for a 10 nun troops squad when every other army is a: plastic and b: even at GW's prices, £20 less. Even if they made them of solid gold, I wouldn't pay that as the Codex is a trainwreck and this latest one, if the initial reports are true, that it's the WD one updated with some extra stuff for 6th, is the laziest piece of cashing in I've ever heard of.

And I've heard of a few.

For years, I've wanted a Sisters army. The only things that have stopped me are the ludicrous weight of the thing, initially, the unavailability of the codex and after the White Dwarf thing, the uselessness of it and the price of buying the metal minis. Whenever the subject has come up, these have been the exact same complaints of the overwhelming majority of people spoken to. "I'd do a Sisters army in a heartbeat if there were plastic minis and a proper codex" has been a fair paraphrase of pretty much every conversation I have ever had on the subject.

I remember a few pages ago that someone said that a physical copy was dependent on sales. If that's true, I hope everyone who is interested has a Ipad (I don't, another nail in the coffin for any Sisters army I may do) because I just can't see it happening. This leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth as, I'm afraid, the Sisters are getting a very raw deal. They're the only army with no plastics and no support and they're expected to perform as well as Orks, Chaos and Eldar in sales ?

I'd laugh but I think I'd rather be sad.

[Jormengand]

-Stuff on SoBs-

I've seen quite a cool army which involved modifying SMs with spare guard heads and a bit of green stuff (for the bits that make them look female, such as their br... uh, hair) along with making some inquisitorial symbols and stealing brets' transfer sheets. Looked like pretty cool sisters, but it'd be a lot of work.

And yeah, I dislike the whole "Digital codex" thing. It's fine if you're okay with buying the Ipad, and then buying the actual codex for it, but otherwise? Bleh.

Fortunately, the Canoness is one of the most reasonably-priced HQ choices around, repentias are all right, celestians can be converted up from taccies and devastators, sisters can be converted up from taccies, the Immolator is all right, the rhino is a rhino, seraphim can be converted up from assault marines and spare bits if you're careful not to use up too many of your pistols, excorcists are all right, penitent engines are actually fairly cheap by GW standards, and retributors can be converted from devastators.

While it's not the best deal ever, it can work.

[ZeltArruin]

I've seen quite a cool army which involved modifying SMs with spare guard heads and a bit of green stuff (for the bits that make them look female, such as their br... uh, hair) along with making some inquisitorial symbols and stealing brets' transfer sheets. Looked like pretty cool sisters, but it'd be a lot of work.

Historically speaking, their armor should be pretty much exactly the same as a Space Marine's, albeit smaller, because such curves around the sternum would only make it easier to harm the wearer. But then, this is the distant space-future we're talking about.

[Timberwolf]

Fortunately, the Canoness is one of the most reasonably-priced HQ choices around, repentias are all right, celestians can be converted up from taccies and devastators, sisters can be converted up from taccies, the Immolator is all right, the rhino is a rhino, seraphim can be converted up from assault marines and spare bits if you're careful not to use up too many of your pistols, excorcists are all right, penitent engines are actually fairly cheap by GW standards, and retributors can be converted from devastators.

While it's not the best deal ever, it can work.

Eventually, I'm sure, after a level of effort that most people won't be prepared to put in, myself included, what with being in the unfortunate position of having to work. I might be able to put out a reasonable army in maybe 2 years if I kitbashed everything, learned to sculpt properly and had a lot of people who were free with their bitz collections.

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

[Jormengand]

Eventually, I'm sure, after a level of effort that most people won't be prepared to put in, myself included, what with being in the unfortunate position of having to work. I might be able to put out a reasonable army in maybe 2 years if I kitbashed everything, learned to sculpt properly and had a lot of people who were free with their bitz collections.

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

Oh, absolutely. But viability of buying the army just depends on what kind of sister army you're going for. If you were planning to spam penitent engines and repentia squads (Fluffy, cheap AND deadly!) you'd be getting yourself a decent deal except on the sisters, who aren't that hard to convert from marines and guard (also, marine sergeants have helmetless heads you can convert up, and you could always have some sisters, I dunno, wearing helmets?)

If you decided to play WHfan and get bretonnians, they also come with tons of heads that are even easier to convert up for sisters' purposes.


Historically speaking, their armor should be pretty much exactly the same as a Space Marine's, albeit smaller, because such curves around the sternum would only make it easier to harm the wearer. But then, this is the distant space-future we're talking about.

Ehh, but force dispersion is higher on a hemisphere than on a plane, meaning that a solid impact, while more likely to go through the armour, would be less likely to kill the wearer if it didn't go through. And nothing goes through power armour. [/exaggeration]

That said, it just makes it easier to convert, right?

[LeSwordfish]

Surely someone somewhere sells super-generic "28mm female heads"?

[Jormengand]

Surely someone somewhere sells super-generic "28mm female heads"?

That's also quite likely, though since my main gaming venue is GW itself I tend to avoid non-GW bought products in my models, except for ubiquitous things like magnets for weapon-swaps. It may be different for some people.

[Wraith]

However, my main point of contention is the unfairness of the Sisters situation and how they expect to turn a profit off them.

Turning a profit on Sister of Battle is theoretically quite easy. First they reprint a old WD Codex under the paper thin facade of a 'new' one. Zero production value is spent on it, save about an afternoon getting some intern to write up a list of Warlord Traits.

They then release it as digital only. Again, absolutely no production costs save some new generic artwork that they've had lying around for a year or two anyway. So, 50,000 curious/die hard people buy it for $10 a piece, GW having spent a grand total of 'nothing' on getting it made. That's very nearly half a million dollars in pure profit.

And, of course, SOMEONE will inevitably buy some models anyway. Models that GW have had sat in a warehouse gathering dust since Codex: Witch-hunters was released a decade ago, so at the very worst GW recoup their losses and break even on those. Probably even a profit, since the price to buy white metal has just gone up and up and GW had it all made back when it was 'cheap'.

So, yeah. Codex: Sisters of Battle is basically GW having a garage sale, and dressing it up under the guise of an 'antiques' fair knowing full well that they don't need people to go out and buy iPads in order to get the book, as any sales at all are pure profit anyway. :smalltongue:

[Requizen]

Recently started collecting/playing. Decided on Necrons because who doesn't love Egyption Zombie Robots with Lasers in Space?

I'm aware of most of the current strats due to forums and 1d4chan and stuff, but I really feel like I need to ask: How many Scythes can I run in an army before I become "that guy"?

[Cheesegear]

I'm aware of most of the current strats due to forums and 1d4chan and stuff, but I really feel like I need to ask: How many Scythes can I run in an army before I become "that guy"?

A good rule of thumb is that if you have more than 3 of anything that's actually any good, you're 'that guy'.