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ambu
2006-12-25, 12:18 PM
I am not sure if I should be posting here or in the homebrew setting, so let me start with an apology if I have posted in the wrong forum.

I am a long time lurker in several forums of D20. In almost all of them, most players regard the fighter class as underpowered, compared to most other standard classes. I belong to the camp that says that you should play a class because it fits the concept you have in mind, not because it can beat another class in an arena match. However, I also see the merit of the opinion that if you are struggling to be useful then it severely limits your playing fun, rollplaying or roleplaying-wise.

So I believe that fighter need to revisit the drawing board and I am willing to give it a try. I will start with the following presuppositions:
- The fighter's flavor must be preserved. That means it must also be somewhat defined first.
- The fighter must not step into other classes' toes. It must be a class with something unique to play
- I do not believe that I am more capable than the designers of WoC. Thus, I will try to incorporate elements already existing, if at all possible. In the proposal below, I have used many ideas from the fighter discussion thread in WoC boards and especially from the ideas of Seerow.

So, where do we begin? Let's start with flavor. The PH says "The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary and the bandit king-a ll are fighters.... fighters can be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions or criminal enforcers." And later:" Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all around capabilities" althought that really did not need clarification.

Where does that leave us? The fighter must be the master of combat and be able to fill many roles, not necessary simultaneously. This ties nicely with our second presupposition because what the fighter has is versatility. He gets many many feats. That is his most defining characteristic. This is what we should encourage.

What are the flaws the fighter has, according to most? First, in higher levels he is outshined by the cleric, if the cleric wants to. Secondly, there are precious little he can do outside of combat.
As for the first, well, since the advence of the PHII there are many feats that make the fighter somewhat more capable at higher levels. But there is also the skills problem. To address all the above I look into what the designers have done. Monte Cook, in his variant PH Arcana Evolved has gone with the route of giving specific capabilities in specific levels, in addition to upping the die to d12. The Nine Swords book has the Warblade, who also has d12, more skill points and some very interesting capabilities. Let's see what I propose:

CHANGE ONE: The fighter gets better saves.
CHANGE TWO: The levels the fighter does not get a feat, he should get an ability.
CHANGE THREE: The fighter must get something skill wise. His list broadens to include Gather information, Spot, Listen and Survival. These are two reflect the background from which he came. The guards usually know their city and have contacts within. Guards and sentries must be able to.. guard. And soldiers learn something of living of the land, maybe even become trackers. I do not think the above steal the thunder of the rogue or the ranger.

FINAL CUT

FIGHTER
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Saves: Fort good, reflex and will medium

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim Gather information, Spot, Survival

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Fighter
Level Special
1st Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude
2nd Bonus feat
3rd Learning ease, Height of battle 1/day
4th Weapon specialization
5th Bonus feat
6th Bonus feat
7th Armor specialization
8th Bonus feat, Height of battle 2/day
9th Take the high ground
10th Bonus feat
11th Armored mobility
12th Greater weapon specialization
13th Bonus feat,Height of battle 3/day
14th Bonus feat
15th Greater armor specialization
16th Bonus feat
17th Learning mastery
18th Bonus feat,Height of battle 4/day
19th Greater learning mastery
20th Bonus feat

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and at fighter levels as given in the table. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Weapon aptitude: As the warblade

Learning ease: The fighter can add half his fighter level, rounded up, into any of his stats in order to qualify for any feat that has attribute requirements.

Height of battle: When not flatfooted, the fighter can substitute his TOTAL save modifier with another save. This ability works 1 battle+ 1/5 additional levels

Weapon specialization: The fighter gets the benefit of weapon specialization for any weapon he has weapon focus.

Armor specialization: The fighter chooses an armor or shield category. He gets +1 AC and -1 reduction to armor check penalties when using these category of armor or shield.

Take the higher ground: The opponents of the fighter do not gain a bonus from fighting from higher ground or from fighting mounted unless they have this ability themselves.

Armored mobility: The fighter no longer suffers any reduction to his speed due to his armor.

Greater Weapon specialization: The fighter gets the benefit of greater weapon specialization for any weapon he has weapon focus and greater weapon focus.

Greater armor specialization: The fighter's AC bonus with his chosen armor or shield category becomes +2 and his armor check penalty reduction become -2.

Learning mastery: Once per day, as a standard action, the fighter can designate a number of feats equal to his level/3 and swap them with other feats of equal power. Equal power feats are considered feats that have equal or lower skill rank and BAB requirements with those swapped. A fighter must meet all requirements of the feats he chooses, even of the requirements are fulfilled by swapped feats. The fighter must have witnessed the effects of the swapped feats in action. This effect lasts for
a number of consecutive battles up to (fighter levels)/4 each day.

Greater learning mastery: The effects of learning mastery do not need to be applied to consecutive battles in a given day.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 01:14 PM
I like it a lot! One thing that jumps to mind that I would change is gather information as a class skill. How about knowledge (local) instead? Not to mention knowledge (nobility).

ambu
2006-12-25, 01:22 PM
Thanks Kendonim for the kind words. Well, I would add a Knowledge skill in the fighter's skill also bit Gather Information is a Social skill, that I believe fighter is sorely lacking. Thus, I would keep Gather Information in the class skills list.

ken-do-nim
2006-12-25, 01:34 PM
Remember that 5 ranks in knowledge local gives a +2 synergy to gather information checks. So in the fighter/guard's hometown area, he can gather information better than he can outside of it. I think that makes a certain amount of sense.

The other thing I wanted to point out was that learning mastery, while being extremely neat, could slow the game down as the player pours through the books to read these new feats carefully. It would have a similar effect that polymorph has to the gaming table.

ambu
2006-12-25, 01:45 PM
Very very true Kendorim. But by then, the PCs are very high levels and the DM could ask the player to come to the table with all the changes ready. Also, the character must have seen the feat in action. I believe that some kind of understanding can be reached between the DM and the player. After all, most feat trees are quite known by now.

jlousivy
2006-12-25, 01:58 PM
learning mastry/greater learning mastry- too powerful, the fighter already has an enourmous amount of feats, this would essentially let him do whatever he pleases, ie: wielding any weapon of his choosing with weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization.. all by swapping out 2 feats due to the 'free weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization

height of battle- can you explain this for me?

bonus feats should still be linked to fighter bonus feat list.
no reason a fighter just being able to fight well and learn fighting skills should be able to get bonus feats for metamagic, item creation, etc
the reason the bonus list is restricted to certain feats is because those are the types of things fighters learn by fighting

The saves.... i can agree with the 'medium' reflex saves, but fighters aren't so inclined to have great will saves,

i do like the idea of having special things added, it makes him more fun to play

this does not however fix the problem of 'wizards > fighters' or whatever
Without supplementing the fighter with spells/spell-like abilities/SR i don't know if u can 'balance them' ^^^none of which would be fair at all

just my 2 cents

Raum
2006-12-25, 02:04 PM
It looks pretty good overall, just have a couple comments. First, there is no standard "medium" save preogression. So you may just want to give him good Fort and Ref with a poor Will as the save progression. If you're going to stick with a nonstandard pregression it needs to be enumerated. Second, on Learning Mastery / Greater Learning Mastery, you probably need to specify that the fighter needs to remain qualified for all his feats not just the ones he's switching to. I'd also consider making one (or both) capable of switching out a feat permanently...maybe requiring a day of training per feat.

On Height of Battle, is there a limit to how many times he can use it? I'm not clear on what you meant by "...works one battle...". For clarity, you might consider switching it out with the Mettle ability.

ambu
2006-12-25, 02:25 PM
Thanks to all for their time.
The medium save progression was introduced I believe by Monte Cook. It works something like +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3 and tops to +8 at 19th level and +9 at 20. I believe that the fighter should get good saves and especially in Will. Why not? In ADD the fighter had the best saves and now he has gone to worst. I originally was on the two good saves camp, but that only made the class dipping problem worse. So I opted for two medium saves and the Height of Battle ability.
The Height of Battle essentially lets the fighter substitute saves a specified number of times under certain circumstances. For example, Darius, the dwarven fighter is 4th level and has a total Fort save of +7. During the third round of combat he gets targeted by a spell requiring him to make a Will save. His player announces that he will use the Height of Battle ability to roll a Fort save instead. Darius grunts as his mental stability is assaulted but bites his lips until they get bloody, focusing on his pain and pushing the assault away. If he gets assaulted again the next round he cannot use the ability again. If that had happened at the first round of combat, where he was flatfooted, he would also not be able to use it.

As for the feats, well of course they should be from the fighter bonus list. My mistake. Ditto for Raum 's point.

Raum
2006-12-25, 03:03 PM
Arcana Unearthed / Evolved is hardly standard. You'll limit your audience by using material from non-WotC sources.

On Height of Battle, I'd recommend using a per day mechanic instead of per battle. It avoids the issue of deciding where one battle ends and the next begins.

JaronK
2006-12-25, 03:27 PM
Learning Mastery and Greater Learning Mastery seem overly complicated. Perhaps a simpler version would be based on the Chameleon concept:

Learning Mastery: A fighter may chose one "floating" feat. This feat may be any [fighter] feat that the fighter qualifies for. This feat may not be used as a prerequisite for any other feat or prestige class. The fighter may change this feat to any other [fighter] feat he qualifies for by spending one hour in meditation and practice, during which time he can do nothing else.

Greater Learning Mastery: The fighter's flexibility in combat strengthens. He may chose a second floating feats, following all the rules for the floating feat given by Learning Mastery. This second feat may use the first floating feat as a prerequisite, though no other feat or PrC may use either of the floating feats as such. If the first feat is a prerequisite for the second and the first feat changes, the fighter must at that time change the second feat as well to a legal choice. The fighter may change one or both feats by spending one hour in mediation and practice, as in Learning Mastery.

JaronK

Jalil
2006-12-25, 04:01 PM
^^^ I agree. I do think that the fighter needs work, and i like what you've done with it, gives it a flavor, rather than a stack of feats.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2006-12-25, 04:38 PM
A fighter with an ability other than a fighter feat makes another class. some people look at the fighter in the wrong light. To some of us, the Fighter is the best class ever. To others, it is merely a way to get a couple quick feats, a better FORT save, and +2 to their bab. I do not beleive that the fighter was designed to be a 20 level character; it is meant to be a base class for going into something else, such as Dervish. The Fighter class is a means to an end. Literally.

Skyserpent
2006-12-25, 05:03 PM
What about Barbarians? THEY are underpowered now. In comparison to other Melee Classes. The Knight and the Warblade both have d12 hit dice and much better abilities! Well... at least the warblade does.

D'Artagnan
2006-12-25, 05:09 PM
I like your concept a lot! It definitely makes the fighter much more versatile.

ambu
2006-12-25, 07:17 PM
Once again thanks for the replies. I will try to answer each case separately:

Raum, I do not really understand your objection. The 'medium' save pops up frequently and I have seen it many forums, the WoC included. I cannot see eye to eye with your objection to it just because it is non-core. I believe it is usable and it should be judges on each own merit. The Cook reference was to highlight that people intimately familiar with the d20 use it

JaronK your suggestion has merit but the floating feat makes the problem of adjusticating the use of the ability bad. Any feat will do? Prerequisites are needed? If yes, it is useless, if not it is very powerful. I believe that the whole feat chain must change and the preparation needs doing only once. It is not more difficult that choosing spells, I believe. Just my 2cp.

Quirinius, I did not get the gist of your argument. If you believe that the fighter SHOULD be a dip-only class, I strongly disagree and let's leave it at that. If you believe the opposite and think that the fighter is great as it is, OK you do not need this thread. But I disagree with your assessment that adding anything to the fighter other than feats alters the flavor of the class. Versatility, the option that the many feats try to encompass, can be covered with other, more distinguished methods, as I have tries to show above.

Skyserpent, I do not know if the barbarian is underpowered. The barbarian has things to do outside of combat and has many distinguished abilities, making the class unique as written. Maybe it needs a slight power boost maybe it doesn't. Any suggestions?

D' Artagnan, I am glad you enjoy my compilation!

Behold_the_Void
2006-12-25, 10:00 PM
I personally favor giving Fighters good Will and Fortitude saves. Think about it, how often in popular fiction do you see the highly skilled warrior fall under the control of a mind-affecting spell? They seem to be really good at throwing those effects off.

That right there would also make it that much more difficult for Wizards to get the edge on them.

Aximili
2006-12-25, 11:29 PM
Do not give fixed extra class-skills. The fighter flavor is way to varied. Allow him to choose 4 new class skills.

And I support JaronK's idea. o/

the_tick_rules
2006-12-25, 11:32 PM
i like it, i like it alot. maybe at 20th or some other high level he could apply ac to touch attacks. make touch attacks, very popular sorcerer spells, almost sure to miss.

RandomNPC
2006-12-26, 12:03 AM
maybe weapon spec. and aromor spec. at 5th and 7th respectively, and like tick rules said, at a level (i'd say 9th or 11th) apply total AC to touch attacks.

i feel the floating feat idea goes a little to far. but maybe a focus/specialization relation. like at 10th level all applying feats to a specific weapon apply to a second weapon that has a relation. for example if you compare damage and size the sword relation goes like this :
dagger, shortsword, longsword, bastard sword, greatsword.
scimatar and falchion are arguable scince they are curved, but most weapons are related to other weapons in some way. if that goes to far this ability could be limited to only one related weapon, chosen at the time the ability is gained.

also, on the armor specialisation, would it be +1 AC -1 check penalty, or +1AC and max Dex, -1 check penalty? i beleive max dex could be left alone, but allowing that change would give a good reason why entire batalions wear full plate in some of these stories i read.

i like the idea, but i have yet to see a wizard get totally out of control. i understand it does happen, and a wizard with the right things can get out of hand for anyone, but if the rest of the players and the DM sit around letting it happen, somethings wrong. I've got a player whos afraid to use the last dammage spell on his prepared list, just in case he needs it later.

Aximili
2006-12-26, 12:24 AM
I've got a player whos afraid to use the last dammage spell on his prepared list, just in case he needs it later.
Tell him to save the last Teleport spell instead. Much safer.

ambu
2006-12-26, 04:31 AM
Thanks again for the nice words.

Tick and RandomNPC the touch AC idea is nice, where would you consider using it? Maybe if I merge learning mastery and Greater learning mastery and give that ability to 20th level? Would that be what you had in mind?

Aximili, your idea is nice but that is just a way to say: All skills are class skills. It is I believe a little too much.

Marius
2006-12-26, 08:05 AM
The problem with your fighter is that it doesn't solve the problem. Not only doesn't solve it but it also unbalances the fighter making him more powerful than the other non-full-caster classes. So now you still have the problem you had before and a new one.

Matthew
2006-12-26, 09:08 AM
Hmmn. I think I might agree with Marius about this. A cleaner Feat progression and free Specialisation is about the only thing I would change with regard to the Fighter. It's already a great Base Class and Spring Board.

(I think I would give everyone more Skill Points and Class Skills or just divorce the system from Levels altogether)

ambu
2006-12-26, 09:20 AM
Marius and Matthew, how so? What is the problem that doesn't solve? I believe that the fighter I propose has some utility outside of combat and holds his own better in the upper levels. I do not know if that is sufficient but I believe it is definitely better. And once again, I disagree with the notion that the fighter SHOULD be just a dip class. If you think so fine but I start from a different angle: I want fighter to be playable at all levels.

Matthew
2006-12-26, 09:35 AM
I just already think Fighters are pretty much fine. If you want to increase their powers at later levels, you need to do the same for all the other Non Caster Base Classes. The genericness of the Fighter and his potential for customisation is what makes the Base Class attractive (to me).

Marius
2006-12-26, 09:35 AM
A high level wizard could still cast a chain disjuntion and a quickened forcecage using rods of metamagic and your fighter can't do anything about it. The Druid and the cleric are still better then your fighter too. But now your fighter is overpowered when you compare it with a rogue, a ranger, a barbarian, etc.
I also disagree with the notion that a fighter should be a 2 level dip but your take on the fighter doesn't fix the base problem of unbalance in d&d.

The White Knight
2006-12-26, 10:12 AM
I like the idea of making the fighter-only feats (weapon spec., GWF, GWS, etc) automatic class features instead of feats (and perhaps even some things like armor specialization). I think those can be implemented without skewing things too much. That's where I'd leave it, though... adding additional class features might just end up leaving classes like Knight, Paladin and Ranger in the dust. Maybe not, though. I can't really tell.

ambu
2006-12-26, 11:32 AM
Well I see your point now, but we aim at different things. I also believe that wizards are still more powerful but I am not aiming to change DnD so much. I believe that for example Arcana Evolved exists for those who want more equality to the classes, caster of reasonable power etc etc. I was aiming at creating a fighter who would be fun to play, without being underpowered to anything that moves or crawls. The rogue, the barbarian, the ranger, they all have features that make them distinct. I wished for the fighter to have something similar while keeping its genericness and its flavor. So yes, I did not fix the whole DnD. I do believe I proposed a fighter variant that is somewhat better than the original. And if you believe that the fighter is so far behind, so come you advocate that 'fighter is fine as it is?'
Please, I am not trying to be antagonistic, just wondering... I will be happy if the majority believes that my proposal is better than the original fighter.

Matthew
2006-12-26, 11:40 AM
No problem. I think the Fighter is 'just fine' in comparison to the other Non Casters; it's just my opinion, though. I have, overall, found it easier to nerf the Casters, rather than power up the other Classes.

To me, the Fighter is currently capable of supporting just about any warrior-type concept. The only things that rub me up the wrong way are the Skills and Skill Points (but that's a more widespread issue anyway) and the way that Specialisation is handled.

Marius
2006-12-26, 01:03 PM
Well I see your point now, but we aim at different things. I also believe that wizards are still more powerful but I am not aiming to change DnD so much. I believe that for example Arcana Evolved exists for those who want more equality to the classes, caster of reasonable power etc etc. I was aiming at creating a fighter who would be fun to play, without being underpowered to anything that moves or crawls. The rogue, the barbarian, the ranger, they all have features that make them distinct. I wished for the fighter to have something similar while keeping its genericness and its flavor. So yes, I did not fix the whole DnD. I do believe I proposed a fighter variant that is somewhat better than the original. And if you believe that the fighter is so far behind, so come you advocate that 'fighter is fine as it is?'
Please, I am not trying to be antagonistic, just wondering... I will be happy if the majority believes that my proposal is better than the original fighter.

Sure, the rest of the classes have their features but they aren't more powerful. I don't like some of your changes too. Why they get better saves? You want better will saves? Take the Iron Will feat. I agree to give them 4 skill points per level but why do they get Gather information? And survival? That's just stepping on barbarian territory.
I would change the "learning ease" feature from "any feat" to "any fighter feat".
"Height of battle" it's ok
Armored mobility is just ilogic I don't think anyone should get it.
I also don't like "learning mastery"
If you want a better fighter use this one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169285
That class also has some abilities that I don't like but it's hard to satisfy everyone.

Valairn
2006-12-28, 11:40 AM
Sure, the rest of the classes have their features but they aren't more powerful. I don't like some of your changes too. Why they get better saves? You want better will saves? Take the Iron Will feat. I agree to give them 4 skill points per level but why do they get Gather information? And survival? That's just stepping on barbarian territory.
I would change the "learning ease" feature from "any feat" to "any fighter feat".
"Height of battle" it's ok
Armored mobility is just ilogic I don't think anyone should get it.
I also don't like "learning mastery"
If you want a better fighter use this one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169285
That class also has some abilities that I don't like but it's hard to satisfy everyone.

Couldn't you have just said, I don't like your class and I'm not using it. You didn't offer anything useful to the conversation.

Kayeich
2006-12-28, 02:39 PM
Hrm...well, the fighter does have some issues, but his ability to go a diverse amount of paths is a big draw to it.

Notably, when I saw the Warrior generic class in Unearthed Arcana, I've offered the option of using that in place of Fighter to players. Still not necessarily optimal, especially after seeing "weapon aptitude" from warblades.

So playing around with the warrior and warblade in mind, and giving fighter's combat versatility while also keeping it limited (my goal anyhow) this is what I've come up with:

***

The Fighter

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 10

Class Skills:
The fighter may select six skills as class skills, plus Craft.

He may not select Decipher Script, Disable Device, Open Lock, Spellcraft, or Use Magic Device as class skills.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Base Save Bonuses: Fighters get one good save, and two poor saves.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all
simply and martial weapons, and with medium and light armor,
and shields (excluding tower shields).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Good Save|Poor Saves|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|Quick Draw

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|Weapon Training, Bonus Feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|Bear With It+1

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|Bonus Feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Tower Shield Proficiency

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|Die Hard

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|Bonus Feat

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|Bonus Feat

11th|
+11|
+7|
+3|Bear With It+2

12th|
+12|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat

13th|
+13|
+8|
+4|

14th|
+14|
+9|
+4|Bonus Feat

15th|
+15|
+9|
+5|Armor Supremacy

16th|
+16|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat

17th|
+17|
+10|
+5|

18th|
+18|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat

19th|
+19|
+11|
+6|Bear With It+3

20th|
+20|
+12|
+6|Fighter's Edge, Bonus Feat[/table]

Class Features:
Quick Draw - A fighter gains the benefit of the Quick Draw feat. If he already has this feat, he may instead select another feat in its place, so long as the feat selected is a fighter feat that he qualifies for.

Weapon Training - Once per day, a fighter can spend an hour retraining what weapon any feat that is weapon specific applies to.
He does not need to retrain all weapon specific feats, but any retrained feat must still meet all prerequesites. For example, a fighter
may not retrain weapon specialization from longsword to rapier if he has not also retrained weapon focus from longsword to rapier.

Bonus Feats - At all even levels, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat. A fighter's bonus feat must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequesites for a bonus feat before selecting it.

Bear With It - At level 3, a fighter can better bear through one of combat's rigors. He must select one of his saves and from then on he applies a +1 bonus to it. At levels 11th and 19th, this bonus improves by 1.

Armor Proficiency (Heavy) - A fighter may wear heavy armor at no penalty after level 5.

Tower Shield Proficiency - A fighter may use a tower shield at no penalty after level 5.

Die Hard - A fighter gains the benefits of the Die Hard feat, even if he does not meet the prerequesites.

Armor Supremacy - At level 15th, a fighter has become familiar with usage of all armors and knows how to get the most out of it. He ignores the standard speed reduction for wearing medium or heavy armor, the Maximum Dex Bonus increases by 1, and his armor check penalty is reduced by 1.

Fighter's Edge - At level 20, a fighter can spend an entire day retraining up to five of his fighter bonus feats. When retraining a feat, he must not only meet any feat prerequesites now, but he must have met the prerequesites at the time he chose the original feat.

***

As can be seen, I've gotten rid of most of the dead levels (left only three), replaced the first level bonus feat with Quick Draw (I'm not a fan of people selecting a class purely for the bonus feat), and still give the fighter the use of heavy armor and tower shields, though not until level 5.

I also made sure they get Weapon Training, based on the warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability, since it's silly that warblades are somehow better with weapons than a fighter.

I added a bit of flavor of the style like Grace, Battle Fortitude, and those class features that add a small bonus to a save with Bear With It.

Die Hard is again, some flavor stuff, since a fighter shouldn't be someone that goes down easy.

Armor Supremacy is based off the Knight's Armor Mastery ability, but because it's better, it becomes available to fighters at a high level.

Finally, Fighter's Edge gives fighter a hallmark level 20 ability, without being necessarily overpowered. After all, PHBII already gives players the option of retraining feats in much the same fashion, Fighter's Edge merely does it faster and for free.

As an aside, shouldn't this thread be in homegrew? Since it is about customizing a class after all...

And some edits made to post on stuff I thought in hindsight might be too close to breaking the posting non-SRD content rule.

Aximili
2006-12-28, 08:38 PM
Aximili, your idea is nice but that is just a way to say: All skills are class skills. It is I believe a little too much.

Have you seen the human paragon class from UA?
THAT's a way to say: All skills are class skills.

But maybe 4 optional class skills is too much. Give him just one. Or give him two to choose from a list of 8.

ambu
2006-12-29, 05:49 AM
Good answers everybody thanks.
Kayeich, I like your proposal, but I believe that it still leaves fighter hanging in the higher levels, where he needs the boost most. Just my 2cp.
Aximilli, I was too short for a decent answer. I meant to say that if you let someone choose four skills you are effectively allowing him to choose whatever skill he wants, as most of the times four skills are more than he needs. I would like to propose that he chooses a skill too, but this is getting somewhat complex.

paigeoliver
2006-12-29, 06:15 AM
Much simpler than redoing the whole class, have you simply considered making ALL the fighter bonus feats floating fighter bonus feats that can be changed daily? Best part is that it can be done by merely changing ONE sentence in the class description.

Or, slightly better would be changing TWO sentences in the class description, making the 4th level and higher bonus feats floating. Making the first and second level bonus feats floating would make every other fighting class in the game more powerful, since they would REALLY all take two levels of fighter then.

Making a whole bunch of them floating assures that a fighter with preparation (much like a wizard with preparation), can always be in top form, and if need be he can leave them blank until needed.

Marius
2006-12-29, 06:19 AM
Couldn't you have just said, I don't like your class and I'm not using it. You didn't offer anything useful to the conversation.

And your reply to my post did? I just gave my opinion about ambu's fighter and posted what could be a better fighter.
You, on the other hand, really didn't offer anything useful to the conversation.

I agree with ambu, Kayeich fighter is almost as weak as the original one. He just have a couple of minor abilities that at high levels don't matter at all.
Think about what other class can do at that point (+10th level) and then look at the fighter.

tarbrush
2006-12-29, 09:49 AM
THe problem with fighters is not so much the stuff they can do, a fighter whos actually toe to toe with the oponent he wants to hit is still effective at high levels. It's their appaling vulnerability to:

a) Invisible opponents
b) Flying opponents
c) Will save or fall over/be dominated spells

Just making them an archer has little effect as it's very easy to stymie arrows with wind wall.

Personally, what I'd propose is to give them a few innates of

Iron heart surge, but X per day rather than per encounter
Blindsight for a few rounds per day
The ability to leap at flying opponents and force them to the ground (or at least hang on and keep hitting them.
And the ability to auto pass a save/have infinite spell resistance for a couple of effects a day.
Mettle

I wouldn't introduce any of these things before about 10th level, probably having them appear in a similar manner to the rogues special talent.

As people have often pointed out, dipping into fighter is potent enough already and doesn't need amping up, but the real problem is when high level fighters try to cope with magical threats.

Aximili
2006-12-29, 05:22 PM
a) Invisible opponents
b) Flying opponents
c) Will save or fall over/be dominated spells


Actually, A and B are really easy to solve with magic items (though they are a real pain in those levels when your opponent has the spell but you don't have the item yet).

The real big problem is the weak will save. (No item gives enough bonus, and a helm of mindblank is sort of expensive)
I'd simply give fighters a good will save, and transfer the feat he'd get in level 1 to level 3.

That avoids the problem of making the fighter an even more tempting dip-class. (Yeah, it's a terrible idea to make a class with no level 1 class-features. But what are you gonna do?)

tarbrush
2006-12-29, 07:16 PM
Actually, A and B are really easy to solve with magic items (though they are a real pain in those levels when your opponent has the spell but you don't have the item yet).


Well, yeah, but saying 'magic items can fix the problem' is more of an admission of a problem than a solution. Magic items don't arrive on tap in most campaigns, and it's probably infuriating for a fighter to have to sift through every treasure pile hoping there's something in there that'll let him do his job properly.

Also, fighters tend to need items the most. Casters can generally get away with a thingy of +X casting stat and a few wands, and benefit enormously from them.

As it stands, fighter really needs a teleporty thingy, a fly thingy, a see invisibility thingy, magic armour, and a good weapon just to be effective AND he can't even make them himself.

Aximili
2006-12-29, 10:25 PM
As it stands, fighter really needs a teleporty thingy, a fly thingy, a see invisibility thingy, magic armour, and a good weapon just to be effective AND he can't even make them himself.

To be fair, you didn't describe fighters, but also barbarians, monks, rangers and paladins. (rogues too, but they can use wands and stuff, so there's not much problem for them).

Those are issues for all non-(decent)casting classes. But while the paladin has a god-blessed will save and the barbarian at least get's a little bonus from his rage, the fighter (who is suppose to be up to every enemy) is stuck with that pittyful will. (Yes, rangers too.)

Valairn
2006-12-30, 04:43 AM
I never could figure out why a fighter had a bad will save... I mean come on, hes the guy running closest to death and pain, and is required to keep going even AFTER half of his body is missing or burning or somesuch. No matter how strong you are, it would still take a hell of a lot of will to keep moving under DnD conditions of combat.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-30, 04:47 AM
I made what I think is a pretty solid fighter fix, boosting it up to the level of, say, the Tome of Battle classes. It's in the Homebrew section.

Aximili
2006-12-30, 09:12 PM
I never could figure out why a fighter had a bad will save... I mean come on, hes the guy running closest to death and pain, and is required to keep going even AFTER half of his body is missing or burning or somesuch. No matter how strong you are, it would still take a hell of a lot of will to keep moving under DnD conditions of combat.

Exactly! How is a high level fighter supposed to be dauntless if he runs from the first fear effect that's thrown at him? It's just wrong.

Also, having a melee class with good will save (aside from the stereotyped paladin) could prove quite interesting, since it would brake the melee=bad will rule. Imagine the wizard's player looking at his spellsheet and wondering to himself: "Crap! Is he a ranger or a fighter?"

Matthew
2006-12-30, 09:38 PM
Saving Throws are out of whack in D&D in general anyway. It's not too surprising given the massive break between 2.x and 3.x in that regard, but it is problematic. Folding Saves, Attack Bonuses and Skills into the same Scaling Mechanic has proved to be the answer for my Homebrewed and Houseruled (A)D&D campaign.

SpartacusThe2nd
2007-01-01, 02:57 PM
Overpowered!

ambu
2007-01-01, 03:18 PM
Spartacus... what?

Matthew
2007-01-01, 04:11 PM
I'm Spartacus!

ambu
2007-01-02, 03:10 AM
Matthew and Spartacusthe2nd: .......What?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-02, 06:04 AM
Overpowered!

Uh... "I disagree"? Overpowered how? Compared to what? Why?

Caewil
2007-01-02, 06:07 AM
Spartacus is overpowered! He's freeing all the slaves!

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-02, 08:25 AM
Im considering replacing the Fighter with the Man-at-Arms from Iron Heroes. That class seems to fit what I think the fighter could be like.

ambu
2007-01-02, 12:26 PM
Isn't Iron Heroes significantly high powered when introduced in a world were magic items also exist?

Golthur
2007-01-02, 12:31 PM
Isn't Iron Heroes significantly high powered when introduced in a world were magic items also exist?
Yes, it's pretty much based on the skill-not-equipment assumption.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-02, 01:14 PM
The only real difference is some extra skill points, and evry couple of levels he gains a 'wildcard feat', that he can use a full-round action to choose for the day, but he must meet the prerequisites.

ambu
2007-01-02, 03:12 PM
And what about the 'enhanced' BAB and the saves? Not to mention the feat tree, but I guess that doesn't have to be imported

paigeoliver
2007-01-05, 07:31 AM
Fighters worried about flying opponents can all invest in a flying mount, which really helps take care of the problem. Either they can buy it with money, or they can take a level of beastmaster for the Dire Bat mount.

Is Wind Wall REALLY that common? I have a Living Greyhawk archer who has been in about 40 different adventures by dozens of authors and I have never encountered a Wind Wall. And I can't recall ever using the spell as a GM (never had both a bad guy with the spell prepared AND a PC archer at the same time).


Also, a few flying potions can help close the gap.

Also, fighters can carry a whip, pull it out and pull flying opponents out of the sky with it. Those trips are touch attacks, even non-proficient a good fighter will pull them off. If he drinks his potion of enlarge person first then he can get people up to 40' up, more if he jumps.

Fawsto
2007-01-05, 10:10 PM
I couldn't read it all cause I lack time... But as far as I read you did a nice job! I really agree with you when you say that fighters can do little out of fighting. Epic fighters do only one thing, crush enemies! Even Epic Barbarians have other functions (scouting for example)!

As I said I couldnt read it all, but I hope you tried to fix the problem above.


As I said, a nice job! All my thanks to you since I love playing fighters! (Could you do something for the paladin too? =) )

ambu
2007-01-06, 06:50 AM
Fawsto, your post brings tears of pride in my eyes. Thanks.