[PF] How would you run a fight on top of a moving train?

[genderlich]

In my Eberron game, the PCs might end up robbing a lightning rail by jumping on top from an airship. To make it more exciting than just "get in, get the thing, get out" there's probably going to be a fight on top. Lightning rails move at ~30 miles per hour, so I'm not sure what to do about people standing and moving around on top during a battle. Acrobatics checks to move? What happens if you fall off?

[Khosan]

There's a table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/weather#Table-Wind-Effects) for that! Or something like it anyway. That should be enough to get you started.

[Psyren]

^ That, and I would treat the roof as difficult terrain since it's not meant to be walked on. Maybe have them make a DC 15-20 Acrobatics check at the start of their turn as a free action to not treat it as difficult terrain for 1 round.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The table is a good suggestion. Just assume they act the same as if the train weren't moving and there was a 30 mph wind. maybe shift the direction of the wind a little for a turn if the train turns.

[1stEd.Thief]

Preface: I'm not familiar with the differences between PF and 3.5

Wind speed is a good start, but unless the train is moving at a constant speed in a straight line there will be acceleration effects.

Depending on character level, and how hard you want this to be, I'd look into something similar to the effects of a (3.5) Grease spell: unless one has N ranks in balance they're flat footed, balance checks to remain upright and/or regain footing.

Give them plenty of opportunities to NOT fall off the train, otherwise they're essentially out of the game (once again, depending on character level) But I'd make it a possibility.

[Andreaz]

The table is a good suggestion. Just assume they act the same as if the train weren't moving and there was a 30 mph wind. maybe shift the direction of the wind a little for a turn if the train turns.

The wind just accounts for part of the problem. Their ground is moving in ways that cannot be emulated just by summing the train speed and wind speed, thus the whole difficult terrain thing.

I'd do it this way:
A DC 10 STR test for moving, as per the Checked condition in that table and the ground is difficult terrain (with a base speed of 30 mph, the wind will be at least strong, almost always severe so Small and smaller are checked).
Particularly brisk wagon movements, like a bump or a curve, will force an appropriate check to retain balance (climb to hold on during a curve, acrobatics on a bump). Failure by a large threshold means you fall off the wagon.

[NeoPhoenix0]

good suggestions, if anyone falls off i'd suggest a check to grab the side of the train so they might be able to get back in the fight eventually. I'm not familiar with some of the changes in PF, but in 3.5 this would probably be a reflex save.

[Andreaz]

good suggestions, if anyone falls off i'd suggest a check to grab the side of the train so they might be able to get back in the fight eventually. I'm not familiar with some of the changes in PF, but in 3.5 this would probably be a reflex save.

PF and 3.5 are nearly the same. The purpose of each test is basically the same. There's no need to be so afraid of committing a conversion mistake.

[dspeyer]

I'd propose a reflex save for coping with bumps and jogs unless you have three points of contact. If you fail by a little, you're forced to take a five foot step in a random direction (hope it's not off the train!). If you fail by a lot, you move five feet and fall prone. In either case, if you fall off, you can make a second reflex save to grab something.

I say this based on experience standing on subways.

[Andreaz]

This is one situation where I feel skills are underused. "Reflex save" doesn't account for encumbrance/armor, for example, and this is the kind of situation that can be mastered to the point of obviation quite easily.

So acrobatics and climb instead of saves. Fits just as well, if not better, and throws the mundanes a bone.

[urkthegurk]

Particularly brisk wagon movements, like a bump or a curve, will force an appropriate check to retain balance (climb to hold on during a curve, acrobatics on a bump). Failure by a large threshold means you fall off the wagon.

Failure means you make no progress

Failure by 5 or more means you are knocked prone

Failure by 10 or more means you fall of the train, and must make a reflex save (DC 15?) to catch yourself. The character is now clinging to the side of the train.

Failure by 15 or more means you fall off the train car, no save

Failure by 20 or more means you fall underneath the wheels and are run over. :smallbiggrin:

[Lightlawbliss]

I'd propose a reflex save for coping with bumps and jogs unless you have three points of contact. If you fail by a little, you're forced to take a five foot step in a random direction (hope it's not off the train!). If you fail by a lot, you move five feet and fall prone. In either case, if you fall off, you can make a second reflex save to grab something.

I say this based on experience standing on subways.

I personally would go the climb and balance/acrobatics check. Reflex saves are how well you react, and this isn't really a test of "can I respond to the problem very quickly". You can have a modest reaction time and your ability to balance isn't directly affected.

Also, keep in mind that the inside of a subway car is made to be easy(er) to stand in. the outside of the train would be made for maximum performance. the outside of the train is likely going to be smooth, if not slick.

to the OP: something else to consider is if the roof has any defenses on it (spell turrets or what have you). Something like grease if someone goes in the wrong area while it is active is a possibility.

EDIT: almost forgot: the movie classic of the train going into a tunnel while the fight is going on. Get prone or eat rock.

[Andreaz]

Also, keep in mind that the inside of a subway car is made to be easy(er) to stand in. the outside of the train would be made for maximum performance. the outside of the train is likely going to be smooth, if not slick.Slick is not very sought compared to curved, but yes. It'll often be some sort of cylinder shape.

[Dr. Yes]

To add to the difficult terrain/Acrobatics thing, if they fail you could treat it as a bull rush in a random direction to simulate the way a moving train tosses you around. If it would push them off the edge, give a Reflex save to fall prone instead.

[NeoPhoenix0]

This is one situation where I feel skills are underused. "Reflex save" doesn't account for encumbrance/armor, for example, and this is the kind of situation that can be mastered to the point of obviation quite easily.

So acrobatics and climb instead of saves. Fits just as well, if not better, and throws the mundanes a bone.

Did some reading, I agree it should be an acrobatics check to not be jostled around and it should obviously be a climb check to climb back up if you manage to grab onto something after you fell. However, I believe it should be a reflex save to grab onto something if you fall. It doesn't take any kind of training to grab a bar or something, it's based on your reflexes. Your armor/encumbrance also isn't a factor here, your armor won't prevent you from grabbing a bar, it is taken care of with the climb check to get back up. if you fail your climb check to get back up bad enough, you fall. There is also precedence in both 3.5 and PF for reflex saves to grab ledges, just look at the jump checks.

[nedz]

Airship — Moving Train
Kind of reminds me of Firefly — "The Train Job"
But no fighting on the roof for those shiny guys.

[Andreaz]

Did some reading, I agree it should be an acrobatics check to not be jostled around and it should obviously be a climb check to climb back up if you manage to grab onto something after you fell. However, I believe it should be a reflex save to grab onto something if you fall. It doesn't take any kind of training to grab a bar or something, it's based on your reflexes. Your armor/encumbrance also isn't a factor here, your armor won't prevent you from grabbing a bar, it is taken care of with the climb check to get back up. if you fail your climb check to get back up bad enough, you fall. There is also precedence in both 3.5 and PF for reflex saves to grab ledges, just look at the jump checks.Yes, I agree with the "grab ledge" part. Always did, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Just to annotate our current suggestion.

- 30 mph wind speed (or however fast the train happens to be moving at the time.
- acrobatics checks to avoid being jostled on bumps and when the train is moving.
- if they fall off the ledge a reflex save to grab onto something.
- a climb check to climb back up after grabbing onto a ledge.
- probably difficult terrain.

This kinda makes me want to run an encounter on top of a train.

My group already did that but we didn't have anything like this ready at the time.

[genderlich]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I think I'll go with the 30 mph wind speed, and they must make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to move at half speed, using this:


Failure means you make no progress

Failure by 5 or more means you are knocked prone

Failure by 10 or more means you fall of the train, and must make a reflex save (DC 15?) to catch yourself. The character is now clinging to the side of the train.

Failure by 15 or more means you fall off the train car, no save

Failure by 20 or more means you fall underneath the wheels and are run over. :smallbiggrin:

If they grab the side, they can make a DC 12 Climb check as a full-round action to get back up.

I'll probably make each train car 10 feet wide and 30 feet long, with 5-foot gaps in between each car. I might introduce a tunnel through a mountain or something as well, just to mix things up even more.

I still don't know how they'll go about the theft, logistically with the airship and everything. Maybe they'll try jumping down with a rope tied to the top or something. I'll probably just improvise everything according to that, since there's too many possibilities to really prepare for. Unless people have good ideas.

I wanted something more exciting as a fetch quest than just a dungeon, and since Eberron has both airships and trains I figured a classic heist was in order. I was indeed very influenced by the Train Job episode of Firefly. :smallamused:

[IronFist]

I'm pretty sure there are exact rules for that in one of Eberron's modules, I just can't remember which one now.