Adnd 2nd edition help

[Bainezn45]

Our group has decided to leave 3.5 amd go back to 2nd edition problem is its been over a decade for any of us since we last played it. So if you kind gentleman we be so kind to help me build a half elf fighter theif that would be great. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and if possible name the book I can find these things and best weapon/weapon combos armor proficiencies all that good stuff thanks in advance.

[Jay R]

Ask the DM how are characters are being generated. We can't help optimize under the rules until we know the rules.

[Lord Torath]

A fighter thief in AD&D 2E is probably best thought of as a thief with increased fighting ability. If you want to use your thieving abilities, you're not going to want armor heavier than leather (AC:8, where 10 is the worst). Beyond that, you need to decide what kind of thief you want to be. Are you a sneaky pilferer or are you good at traps and locks? You're not going to have the points to be good (or even almost decent) at everything, so you need to decide what skills you want to focus on.

How is your DM handling weapon proficiencies for multi-class characters? Are you limited to Thief weapons? Or can you access the full range available to warriors?

Can your multi-class warrior specialize in weapons? Or is your DM limiting that to straight fighters?

How is your party set for fighter-types? Are you the only one? Or is there someone else who can stand on the front line?

Lots of questions to answer before we can help you too much.

[Bainezn45]

Ok sorry as I said quite out of date with 2nd edition. I think instead I'll just single class fighter keep it simple first campaign back. . I think sword and board.? As far as how we are creating characters I'm not sure prob role 4d6 drop lowest assign how we want. So I guess what a good kit might be or if you guys have any different ideas I'd be open as well I like flavor but also functionality. Most books would be open ie most of the complete________ books as well as core. As for other questions that were asked I'm not sure and neither is my dm lol. So I guess a good fighter/warrior build you can just throw what your thinking and I can sift thru /reaserch what I need. I would still be interested in the fighter/thief if it's not too complicated I had a vision of sneaking in backstabbing then dual weapon killing like a fighter but if that's not a very viable option then screw it lol I'd rather be a better fighter than theif. I hope this helps clarify a little more.

[Digitalelf]

I had a vision of sneaking in backstabbing then dual weapon killing like a fighter

A thief's backstab ability in 2nd edition works differently than 3rd edition's sneak attack. Backstab can only be used in very specific and limited circumstances.

[Jay R]

Ok sorry as I said quite out of date with 2nd edition. I think instead I'll just single class fighter keep it simple first campaign back. . I think sword and board.?

Toss the shield and take two swords. The shield is worth 5% defense only, and the second sword doubles the damage you do. Then increase your DEX for both increased AC and to reduce the penalties for fighting two-handed.

[MeeposFire]

Toss the shield and take two swords. The shield is worth 5% defense only, and the second sword doubles the damage you do. Then increase your DEX for both increased AC and to reduce the penalties for fighting two-handed.

Well that 5% makes a nice difference at low levels where you need anything to help keep you up and running. You can also put a point into specializing in sword and shield which lets you bash with a shield and keep your AC (well if you use latest version of the prof anyway) so you can get an extra attack and armor.

[Rhynn]

Actually, the Skills & Powers version of Weapon & Shield Fighting Style Specialization grants +1 to AC and +1 to attacks when wielding a shield and a weapon. The Combat & Tactics version only lets you use Shield-Punch and Shield-Rush, both of which explicitly forgo the protection of the shield for that round. Shield-Punch is just two-weapon fighting (at -2/-4 mitigated by Dex) for mediocre damage (1d3 to 1d6), and unless the DM rules that magic shields get attack and damage bonuses, you're going to suck even more at higher levels. Shield-Rush knock your opponent down.

Anyway, even with Player's Option, creating an AD&D 2E character is easy. You've already got the "build": you're a half-elf fighter or fighter/thief. You're just missing ability scores (prioritize Str, Dex, and Con in that order) and proficiencies, which depend entirely on which rules you're using. Is Player's Option in use? If so, it's much more complicated. If not, just choose four weapons (longsword, longbow, dagger, and maybe spear or a polearm that can be set against charges) and, if making a fighter/thief, split your thief skill points into whichever skills you want to use. You can choose whatever for NWPs.

Edit: Oh yeah, and no kit is really a bad choice. 2E, even with all the extras, doesn't really have trap options the way 3.X does. If you're a fighter/thief, you're not supposed to get a kit, but then the demi-human Completes broke that rule, so who knows anymore... if you're a fighter, just pick one that you like the style of from CFHB.

[Digitalelf]

Well that 5% makes a nice difference at low levels where you need anything to help keep you up and running. You can also put a point into specializing in sword and shield which lets you bash with a shield and keep your AC (well if you use latest version of the prof anyway) so you can get an extra attack and armor.

If you're talking about the rules in "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", that's not Weapon Specialization, that's burning an actual Weapon Proficiency on a Fighting Style (in this case, "Weapon And Shield Style")... Not the same thing, not the same thing at all.

And if you're referring to the rules within the "Player's Option" books... Well, nevermind... :smalltongue:

[Matthew]

Yeah, it is difficult to build a character in the same way that you do in D20/3E. Basic things, I guess:

Attributes

Strength: Unless you are playing with encumbrance rules a 16 or more is necessary if you want any combat bonuses. However, friendly magicians can easily increase this attribute with the strength spell for limited durations.

Dexterity: Probably the easiest attribute to benefit from, a high dexterity grants missile attack bonuses from 16 and armour class benefits from 15, and additionally it affects saving throws. It is usually more economical to put a high number in this attribute than any other if you are going to see a lot of combat.

Constitution: More hit points from a rating of 15 and only fighters get the higher benefits at 17 and 18. Also good for resurrection survival and system shock.

Intelligence: More languages/proficiencies. Usually you can ignore this attribute as a fighter unless you want to be intelligent or the optional rules are in play for fighting styles and specialisations.

Wisdom: You need a very high score in this attribute to benefit as a fighter, and then it is only a small adjustment for saving throws against magical attacks.

Charisma: This can either be hugely important or irrelevant. If the game master is using the reaction adjustment table a leader with high charisma can help your party avoid unnecessary fights and get better prices for equipment. Also, if you are using henchmen and hirelings this attribute really becomes significant for the number of henchmen (special characters) and the loyalty of both. Having a troop of men-at-arms in your employ can be extremely helpful in the wilderness, and with enough incentive even in the dungeon to some extent.

Equipment

Second edition eradicated movement limitation by armour type and hugely increased the cost of banded mail without bothering to do anything about splinted mail. Assuming you roll a decent number for starting cash and you want to fight on the front lines, you cannot go far wrong with splinted mail, large shield, spear, long sword, and dagger (this last is a must if monsters try to grapple or overbear you). Spears are good for setting against a charge or throwing at the start of combat, but after that you will want to switch to the long sword. The bastard sword is also an option, but turns up less as a magical item on the random treasure tables. You might also consider a horseman's mace, hammer or hand axe for confined spaces, undead (not in the case of the hand axe) or throwing (not in the case of the mace).

These weapon considerations often go out the window if weapon specialisation is in play, as it basically overrides almost every other concern.

Alternatively, you could go with an archer character. This means you will sink a lot of starting cash into a bow of some sort, and probably have to choose a lighter armour type. Usually, a long bow with "war" arrows is most desirable, but tactical considerations are of considerable concern. Your whole group has to be set up to engage at range, because shooting into close combat is crazy risky.

[Bainezn45]

Ok great so what race would you suggest then? I was thinking the mirydon kit? Any other suggestions? Stats were fairly flexible as long as there nit 18s across the board but I will have atleast one 18 amd prob a 17 and prob a 16 and low ball the rest.

[Lord Torath]

I think it really comes down to what do you think would be fun to play. There are not a huge amount of differences mechanically between the races. Yes, some get infravision, or can tell direction underground, or get a bonus to hit with swords and bows. Most of those differences will not have a huge impact in the long run.

It really comes down to fun. What race do you think would be the most fun? Do you want to play a halfling trying to show everyone that he/she can be a serious warrior? Or a dwarf struggling to regain his honor and no longer be a disgrace to his clan? Or a human noble seeking a lost family heirloom? Or a bored elven undead hunter? Or a grown-up street urchin seeking fortune and glory? I could go on....

What setting are you playing in? Do you know what the reactions of the general populace are to the PC races? Do you want to stand out in the crowd, or play as someone who can pass unremarked?

As far as warrior kits, I never really found one that jumped out at me. I always played as a straight Fighter.

[Bainezn45]

I know we won't be playing with the reaction tables just role play but a minotaur pc will def have a tougher time around towns and such than a human. But that doesn't mean can't play just be tougher role playing.

[Lord Torath]

A minotaur will certainly Stand Out in a Crowd... 2nd Edition did publish rules for minotaurs in The Complete Book of Humanoids, but I don't recall them being terribly balanced. I'd check with your DM before going outside the Standard 6 (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, and Half-elf).

Did you mean the Myrmidon kit from the Complete Fighter's Handbook? That's the professional soldier kit, right?

[Bainezn45]

Ya the professional soldier from complete fighter and ya minotaur def stand out lol. What about orcs and half orc that's not too out of wack is it.

[Lord Torath]

I'll say it again:
I'd check with your DM before going outside the Standard 6 (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, and Half-elf).Rules for anything other than those will likely be in The Complete Book of Humanoids. Be ready to tell the DM why you want to play something else, and how you're going to get along with the other PCs/general populace.

What kind of campaign are you playing in? Forgotten Realms? Greyhawk? Mystara? Something else?

Edit: Also, keep in mind that playing an unusual race makes it very hard to hide from your enemies. If you are the only adventuring group with an orc as a member, it will be remarked upon in every city, town, and village you pass through. Any enemies you make will be able to track your every move, so expect them to know where you are going, when you plan to arrive, and possibly when you will next blow your nose. :smallwink:

[MeeposFire]

Actually, the Skills & Powers version of Weapon & Shield Fighting Style Specialization grants +1 to AC and +1 to attacks when wielding a shield and a weapon. The Combat & Tactics version only lets you use Shield-Punch and Shield-Rush, both of which explicitly forgo the protection of the shield for that round. Shield-Punch is just two-weapon fighting (at -2/-4 mitigated by Dex) for mediocre damage (1d3 to 1d6), and unless the DM rules that magic shields get attack and damage bonuses, you're going to suck even more at higher levels. Shield-Rush knock your opponent down.

Anyway, even with Player's Option, creating an AD&D 2E character is easy. You've already got the "build": you're a half-elf fighter or fighter/thief. You're just missing ability scores (prioritize Str, Dex, and Con in that order) and proficiencies, which depend entirely on which rules you're using. Is Player's Option in use? If so, it's much more complicated. If not, just choose four weapons (longsword, longbow, dagger, and maybe spear or a polearm that can be set against charges) and, if making a fighter/thief, split your thief skill points into whichever skills you want to use. You can choose whatever for NWPs.

Edit: Oh yeah, and no kit is really a bad choice. 2E, even with all the extras, doesn't really have trap options the way 3.X does. If you're a fighter/thief, you're not supposed to get a kit, but then the demi-human Completes broke that rule, so who knows anymore... if you're a fighter, just pick one that you like the style of from CFHB.

Bolded is incorrect as quoted from the book

"However, characters who specialize in weapon and shield style can choose to make one of those secondary attacks every round without losing the AC benefit of carrying a shield."

So yes he can keep his AC. Page 103-104 of the Combat and Tactics book. You are probably thinking of the near useless version in the Complete Book of Fighters (near useless because it is hard to see why you would give up AC for a very weak attack).

As for damage the difference between a d6 and a d8 (likely your best one handed weapon option with your off hand) is tiny. We are talking an average of one damage per swing which is typically once a round. Your point about magic weapons is more of an issue and definitely swings things around if you magic shield cannot be used to hurt magical creatures (oddly if this was D&D it would work because the rules say that even things like gauntlets of ogre power work on creature immune to normal weapons). If you find a way to boost strength (gauntlets of ogre power and belts of giant strength are relatively common and classic items and potions/spells are also easy enough to find and use) then the base damage dice is much less important than the boost for a high strength score.

Notice in order to get the boost of one extra damage a round you have to spend two points into two weapon style to do it. Otherwise you are stuck with a d6 type weapons like the short sword. For the same cost the sword and board guy could have both sword and shield and two weapon fighting which would negate his penalties.

The ability to knock enemies down is sometimes a boon to keep in mind. At higher levels that 5% boost to AC can become a 30% boost plus other abilities depending on the type of magic shield.

Lastly fighter thieves can take kits. In fact there are kits that are explicitly for fighter/thieves. You could not take the kits from the fighter handbook and the thief handbook as those specifically said not to but other books in the complete series and other books after that are clear that multiclass characters can have kits too from those sources (unless of course your DM says otherwise).

[Matthew]

Ok great so what race would you suggest then? I was thinking the mirydon kit? Any other suggestions? Stats were fairly flexible as long as there nit 18s across the board but I will have atleast one 18 amd prob a 17 and prob a 16 and low ball the rest.

Well, if you want your character to be a half-elf, then that is the choice for you! For long term viability level limits make humans the best choice, but demi-humans are built for multi-class combinations and have various "front loaded" abilities. If you are going with a standard fighter type, I would suggest:

Race: Human
Class: Fighter
Attributes: Strength 18/??, Dexterity 17, Constitution 16
THAC0: 20
Hit Points: 12
Armour Class: 4(0)
Equipment: Splinted Mail, Spear, Shield, Long Sword, Horseman's Mace, Dagger

A half-elf is just as playable at low levels, if not more so, of course. Given that it is your first time back into the game I suggest:

No Kits
No Proficiencies
No Weapon Speeds

The last is just a terrible optional rule that makes it necessary to attack every spell caster you see with a dagger. If you are using proficiencies there is more reason to choose a kit, since the main advantage is free proficiencies, in which case myrmidon is a solid choice.

[Hawriel]

The beutiful thing about 2nd edition, or AD&D, is that there are no such thing as "builds". At least as a 3rd ed or video gamer would call it.

[MeeposFire]

The beutiful thing about 2nd edition, or AD&D, is that there are no such thing as "builds". At least as a 3rd ed or video gamer would call it.

Not actually true as there are options and there are better choices and weaker choices if you look carefully but there is far less of it than 3e and 4e. There are builds out there for being better mage killers (up above you see a hint where a mage killer should value low weapon speeds just as one example). There are some nasty archer related proficiencies and the punching rules are nasty as well especially for non-warrior classes (bards probably should go with the cestus as their primary melee weapon along with punching specialization, tumbling, two weapon fighting, and climbing claws as this gives a bard +3 hit, +2 damage, 1d4 base damage that is all permanent/lethal, does not get affected by armor problems/lack of weapon, and gives a bard 3 attacks per round with a chance of knock out the knockout I don't personally use as it is too much IMO but it is part of the rules).