Let's talk about Cold Iron

[Firechanter]

As always, if there's a compilation for this kind of question, just post the link and I'll happily read up. ^^ I've done a google search before starting this thread but didn't find an answer to my question.

Okay, here's the thing: on the web, Cold Iron weapons seem to be in low regard. Partly probably to the weird (contradictory) rules for enchanting CI weapons, and for the rest they are considered unnecessary, because "how often do you have to fight Fey?"

As for the former, just use the DMG rule and be done with it.

As for the latter, I kinda wonder: do you guys never fight Demons?

In my book, Demons (as well as Devils) are a very common enemy at higher levels (let's say 10+), and being able to bypass their DR is as useful as anywhere. Actually, one of my previous characters used Cold Iron as primary weapon, combined with a Ring of Adamantine Touch and Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane to emulate Adamantine and Silver properties on top of it. With the proper Crystal, I was able to bypass pretty much any non-epic DR.
I did not find any item that allows a weapon to be treated as Cold Iron.

Only thing that comes to mind would be the Metalline or Transmuting properties, but back then I did the math and concluded that the above combo of Cold Iron weapon plus those items (9K each as secondary properties) was cheaper than paying for a +2 bonus (taking a weapon from +5 to +7 will set you back almost 50K, for instance).

So am I missing something? Why is Cold Iron so crummy, if it's the cheapest way to bypass pretty much any DR?

[Gavinfoxx]

You use cold iron as the cheapest better than iron material at low levels.

And then when you can afford adamantine or aurorum or baatorian green steel and magical enchantments, you get those and never look back. If you want to overcome material DR, you use the Metalline or that shadowstriking or whatever it is called enchantment from Tome of Magic.

[hamishspence]

Shadow Striking, yes. Not to be confused with the Shadowstrike property in Magic Item Compendium that does something completely different.

The Shadow Striking property also helps overcome alignment-based DR as well- handy.

[PaucaTerrorem]

... Partly probably to the weird (contradictory) rules for enchanting CI weapons, and for the rest they are considered unnecessary, because "how often do you have to fight Fey?"


What are the weird (contradictory) rules?

[hamishspence]

What are the weird (contradictory) rules?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold

Weapons made of cold iron cost twice as much to make as their normal counterparts. Also, any magical enhancements cost an additional 2,000 gp.

problem is that if you apply the enhancements all at once- it's just 2000 gp- but if you upgrade the weapon over time, it's an additional 2000 gp each time an upgrade is applied.

[Firechanter]

That, and that MIC gives totally different rules (which make Cold Iron entirely unusable).
Typical solution for the price unclarity is to apply the +2000 surcharge only once, then all additional enchantments don't cost extra.


The Shadow Striking property also helps overcome alignment-based DR as well- handy.

But that's even more expensive! Alignment-based DR is easily handled by a Lesser Fiendslayer Crystal against the typical suspects for 3K.

Let's compare an Adamantine (for durability) weapon with +1 Enhancement and other properties amounting to +4 bonus, so total +5. Cost so far: 53.000GP

As Metalline or Transmuting (total +7): 104K inc. Crystal
As Shadow-Striking (total +8): 131K

Compare to a Cold Iron base weapon with +5 worth of properties that also counts als Adamantine and Silver and Good-Aligned:

2K (Cold Iron) + 50K (+5 bonus) + 9K (DR/Adamantine) + 9K (DR/Silver) + 3K (DR/Good) = 71K

So you save a bunch of gold that you can invest in other properties.
The main difference here is that your Cold Iron weapon has less Hardness and HP than an Adamantine weapon, so getting the weapon sundered may be a problem (if your DM is enough of a **** to do that; something I've never had to deal with).

[Gavinfoxx]

Adamantine > Cold Iron.

Period. Adamantine overcomes a material based DR, and overcomes the hardness of most things. So you make your weapon out of adamantine, and if and only if you care about overcoming other material DR then you enchant it to do so. Understand?



Compare to a Cold Iron base weapon with +5 worth of properties that also counts als Adamantine and Silver and Good-Aligned:

2K (Cold Iron) + 50K (+5 bonus) + 9K (DR/Adamantine) + 9K (DR/Silver) + 3K (DR/Good) = 71K


This is impossible and against the rules. You can't just slap on 'adamantine' or 'silver' to cold iron, or 'silver' to adamantine. You HAVE to pick one base, and then enchant metalline if you want more DR overcoming capability. You seem to be misunderstanding the rules!

[Firechanter]

This is impossible and against the rules. You can't just slap on 'adamantine' or 'silver' to cold iron, or 'silver' to adamantine. You HAVE to pick one base, and then enchant metalline if you want more DR overcoming capability. You seem to be misunderstanding the rules!

Yes you can. Please look up two MIC items:

Ring of Adamantine Touch
Gloves of Weaponry Arcane

They cost 6K each, and grant your attacks, natural or with a weapon, to overcome the DRs like Adamantine and Silver, respectively.
By the rules for stacking magic properties of items, you can put these properties on existing gloves for 50% surcharge, so 9K each.

--

Edit:
What I'd like to know now,
is there any _cheap_ way (max +1 Bonus cost, but preferrably <10K) to bypass DR/Cold Iron with an Adamantine weapon?

[Bronk]

Sure:

oerthblood: +6000gp, Dragon 351 p 45. When alloyed with another metal, the weapon or armor retains that metal’s properties while gaining the beneficial properties of adamantine.

[Firechanter]

oerthblood: +6000gp, Dragon 351 p 45. When alloyed with another metal, the weapon or armor retains that metal’s properties while gaining the beneficial properties of adamantine.

And a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage! =D
Thanks, that will do nicely. I generally don't like Dragon Mag stuff but this sounds quite reasonable. The easier enchantment and the debuffing effects may be a bit over the top.
However, do note that it just gains the hardness and HP of Adamantine, not its DR- or Hardness-bypassing properties (so you still need things like a Ring of Adamantine Touch).

Anyway, that should get all the bases covered. So for a fixed cost of 2+6+9+9+3=29K - much cheaper than Metalline in the long run - you get a weapon that is as sturdy as Adamantine, and will bypass DRs as a Good-Aligned Adamantine, Cold Iron and Silver weapon, all at the same time and without losing actions. Top.

BTW, it has also come to my attention that people like the Least and Greater Fiendslayer Crystals, but consider the Lesser Version sub-par. Again, I don't understand why. It's a cheap, quasi-permanent way to bypass DR/Good, which you need against a ton of Outsiders.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think I've ever had a character with a magical cold iron weapon. Cold iron arrows can be useful, and if you've got some gold in the low levels on a Tier ~4 character it's not a bad idea to carry weapons of varying damage types for skeleton/zombie DR and just make one of them cold iron just in case. Other than that, there's not really any reason to bother with it.

At the levels that DR is really going to matter (around 1-4) you're almost never going to run into X/Cold Iron anyway, it's usually bludgeoning or slashing or magic or maybe silver if there are wererats. In a game I ran quite a while back, they'd just started out and the guy who usually plays a hard-hitting warrior type started out as a 1st level Rogue. He got separated from the party and ran into a Twig Blight (MM2), a small CR 1/3, 5 hp plant with DR 5/bludgeoning or slashing and a miserable 2 claws +0 for 1d3-1 plus poison for 1 Str and no secondary. The Rogue only had a rapier, a shortsword, and a shortbow with Str 10... but a decent AC. Needless to say it was a long fight, and I think it ended when he took enough Str damage that he was hitting for 1d6-1, and finally smashed it with a rock. Sometimes the best solution is the most uncivilized.

[Firechanter]

At the levels that DR is really going to matter (around 1-4)

Well as you may have gathered, I'm a sucker for bypassing DR. Granted, most DR does not exceed 10/X, but this effectively means that bypassing said DR equals an extra 10 damage that stacks with everything else.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well as you may have gathered, I'm a sucker for bypassing DR. Granted, most DR does not exceed 10/X, but this effectively means that bypassing said DR equals an extra 10 damage that stacks with everything else.

The Weapon of Transmutation from the Miniatures Handbook is a +1 Longsword which once it's hit a creature with any kind of damage reduction, the weapon adapts to overcome all of that creature's DR on your next turn. It lasts for ten rounds or until it hits a creature with different DR. The cost is a bit prohibitive (50k, or on a +1 weapon equivalent to a +4 ability cost), but it's a guaranteed method of always overcoming DR no matter what it is.

[Feytalist]

The Weapon of Transmutation from the Miniatures Handbook is a +1 Longsword which once it's hit a creature with any kind of damage reduction, the weapon adapts to overcome all of that creature's DR on your next turn. It lasts for ten rounds or until it hits a creature with different DR. The cost is a bit prohibitive (50k, or on a +1 weapon equivalent to a +4 ability cost), but it's a guaranteed method of always overcoming DR no matter what it is.

The Transmuting property in the MIC does exactly that for a +2 enhancement cost.

So yeah, it's a slightly better option. :smallbiggrin:

[Waddacku]

Thing is, at level 10+ the effect DR has on your damage output, presuming this is a focus of yours, is negligible. Unless you're doing TWF or archery, of course, but that's one of the reasons they're considered bad ideas.

[Firechanter]

Yes, I know. I also think Transmuting is too expensive; let alone the outdated Transmutation.
A few posts up, I've shown a combo to bypass pretty much any DR for a total cost of 29K. At least I think so.
What it doesn't cover is Epic (of course) and DR/Good, which is not a problem for me since I don't intend to fight Good Outsiders.
Did I forget anything?

Cost-wise, it's cheaper than upping a +3 weapon to +5.

What it doesn't change is the damage type, but at higher levels there are few enemies that have DR/Slashing etc., and you can take care of that by picking the right base weapon. If stuff like that turns up frequently, Morphing could take care of that.

[Bronk]

Neat, I had somehow missed the extra points of attack and damage that Oerthblood gives. I do think it still confers the benefits of adamantine weapons to bypass hardness though, since it says it is 'just as effective'. I suppose you could alloy it with adamantine itself just to be sure.

As for bypassing epic DR, you could do it on a case by case basis by using bane weapons... they add +2 to the magical bonus against their bane targets, so a +4 or above bonus on your weapon would be pushed up to +6 or above. Magebane is a good one for this, because it targets any spellcasters, which would include most dragons, say, and is only a +1 enhancement.

[ddude987]

Sure:

oerthblood: +6000gp, Dragon 351 p 45. When alloyed with another metal, the weapon or armor retains that metal’s properties while gaining the beneficial properties of adamantine.

Don't forget the other amazing parts of a stacking debuff to saves and the cost of enchanting a weapon made with this stuff is cheaper.

[Firechanter]

I do think it still confers the benefits of adamantine weapons to bypass hardness though, since it says it is 'just as effective'. I suppose you could alloy it with adamantine itself just to be sure.

Well, the whole point of the exercise is to keep the Cold Iron properties for kicking fiendish ass. I missed the "just as effective" bit before, but the sentence also says "by reputation". Further down it just says it doubles the regular hardness, capping at 20.
So I suppose it's a matter for the DM to call, or the group to agree on, whether the "reputation" is true or not. ;)

[Chronos]

Wait, you can alloy that stuff with multiple metals at once, and it counts as all of them? That kind of makes DR irrelevant-- Why wouldn't all weapons be made from that?

And I'm not sure that it would be any cheaper to enchant than cold iron, if it replicates all of the properties of cold iron.

[shaikujin]

Unfortunately in DnD, alloys don't work like that...




If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.



Oerthblood is special material that can be alloyed with another and can specifically add its' properties.

Pure Ore is another one that can do this.

Truesilver (+1 enchantment) adds silver properties as an enhancement cost of +1.

Riedran Crysteel is both crystal and steel (might work for stacking Psionic Weapon master + Disciple of Dispater crit fishing)

Glassteel from the older Faerun books is a special material with both mithril and adamantine properties.

Immortals handbook has other materials though, like orichalcum, which can be alloyed.

[Bronk]

True, Oerthblood can only be alloyed with one other metal at a time. If it was alloyed with Cold Iron, it would have the properties of both CI and adamantine... but I agree that it would make sense that you would have to keep paying the 2000gp Cold Iron fee every time you magically upgraded the weapon.

The metalline weapon property mentioned earlier can switch a weapon between the benefits of regular steel, cold iron, silver and adamantine, if that's how you want to go, and is a +2 bonus...

[shaikujin]

Other ways are more efficient, but just for completeness - Ki Focus. It's a +1 weapon ability.

If you happen to be a monk and have enough levels to get several of the class abilities that allows your unarmed attacks to be considered Lawful/Evil/Good/Magic/Cold Iron etc, Ki Focus allows them to be applied to your weapon.