vampire vs spawn

[DrDeth]

MY DM has read the Vampire spawn entry in the 3.5MM, and is convinced that Spawn are just as hard to kill as full Vampires, ie when their HP's are reduced to 0, they just turn gas and float off, basically unkillable. Help me convince him otherwise.

And, given that- how does one kill a 3.5 vamp then? Other than sunlight and really high level turning?

[ArcturusV]

Blow up his coffin and dust him. Note that if he doesn't return to HIS coffin (not just A coffin) within a short time frame that basically means his Coffin needs to be intact, and within 2 miles.... he's dead.

Also he turns into Mist. Not invisible, immaterial, stealth mode. The mist moves slow enough you can just follow it back to it's coffin. Once it is in its coffin? Just stake it. You killed it and it's helpless to do anything else.

Heck, you don't even need to destroy the coffin if you can just make sure that the Vampire is on the other side of a stream/river/moat or something. He can't cross it unless he's in it or on a boat. In which case his Misted butt is toast.

[Karnith]

Help me convince him otherwise.That might be hard, given that he is correct. Per the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn)
A vampire spawn heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Once at rest in its coffin, it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.

Also he turns into Mist. Not invisible, immaterial, stealth mode. The mist moves slow enough you can just follow it back to it's coffin. Once it is in its coffin? Just stake it. You killed it and it's helpless to do anything else.Also, this. It's not terribly hard to track a vampire in its gaseous form, and you've got a fair bit of time to do so.

[hamishspence]

MY DM has read the Vampire spawn entry in the 3.5MM, and is convinced that Spawn are just as hard to kill as full Vampires, ie when their HP's are reduced to 0, they just turn gas and float off, basically unkillable.

He's right that they do turn to gaseous form at 0 hp.

However, beings in gaseous form are not invincible:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm

and if you can get it away from its coffin in such a way as to make it impossible to get there in time, it will die.

Immersion in "running water" also works.

[Lord Vukodlak]

He's right that they do turn to gaseous form at 0 hp.

However, beings in gaseous form are not invincible:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm

Might as well be for a vampire, doesn't matter how much damage you deal to the gaseous form you won't kill the vampire.

[hamishspence]

It may still be a valid target for spells like Sunbeam:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunbeam.htm

[Traab]

Or any method of holding it in place, trap it in a solid cube, or, if in an area with little room to roam, block off a vital checkpoint and keep it from being able to make it back to its coffin in time. Hey, quick question, can you forceably teleport someone thats a big sack of gas? Because thats another way to get a fast perma kill. Send it 2 cities away and laugh evilly.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It may still be a valid target for spells like Sunbeam:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunbeam.htm

Well yes but you could have slain the vampire with sunbeam before it assumed gaseous form.

[Thanatosia]

It's not terribly hard to track a vampire in its gaseous form
I dunno, the RAW don't indicate how easy or hard it is to follow the mist really..... In the recent Durkon vs Malak fight in OOTs for example Durkon had no idea where Malak went after mistforming and had to provoke him into monologuing to find him again. I know OOTs isn't D&D Rules cannon, but since the rules don't specify, it's one way the DM could chose to interpret it functioning. And even if it is easy to follow, unless you have mistorm or similar abilities of your own, it would be pretty easy for a misted vamp to elude trackers by utililizing it's abilities to move through small holes and cracks, and such.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I dunno, the RAW don't indicate how easy or hard it is to follow the mist really..... In the recent Durkon vs Malak fight in OOTs for example Durkon had no idea where Malak went after mistforming and had to provoke him into monologuing to find him again. I know OOTs isn't D&D Rules cannon, but since the rules don't specify, it's one way the DM could chose to interpret it functioning. And even if it is easy to follow, unless you have mistorm or similar abilities of your own, it would be pretty easy for a misted vamp to elude trackers by utililizing it's abilities to move through small holes and cracks, and such.

They may only fly at a speed of 20ft in mist form(check the vampire entry) but the ability to seep through cracks and such would make escaping in an urban environment or a castle rather easy.
If the city has a sewer system... well your not going to follow them with anything other then divination.(the spell gaseous form has half the speed of a vampire's)

[ArcturusV]

Except wouldn't sewers be filled with running water draining into a swamp/ditch/cesspool/river? So a vampire in an urban setting wouldn't really be escaping with them. DnD presumes most walls are solid unless otherwise stated, so unless you're talking about escaping out of archer's slits in the wall nowhere near a gate you're probably not really gaining all that much distance against your trackers. Maaaaybe if it was only a solo adventurer after you, as they might have to burn actions opening doors and such allowing you to open up some distance. Or if the weather was foggy and thus you could effectively hide. But average conditions with a party that just misted you? There's gonna be someone who can follow up on you and keep you in sight. Sure one guy might fall behind because he burned an action opening a door or something. But he's just one run action away from catching up while his teammates keep eyes on you.

In any case, killing vampires? It's training for killing Liches. So if your DM is throwing Vamps at you, you might expect Liches later in the game, as quite a few of the same general principles (Avoiding natural abilities, finding their soul Coffin/Phylactery weakness, etc) are similar in how you deal with them.

[Alefiend]

I dunno, the RAW don't indicate how easy or hard it is to follow the mist really.....

A smart GM will have set the scene already, describing a misty or foggy night. Good luck tracking a gaseous-form vampire through that—it's like trying to follow a piece of water in a river. :smallamused:

Bonus points if the encounter happens in a ruin or a run-down urban area. Lots of cracks and crevices to seep through.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Except wouldn't sewers be filled with running water draining into a swamp/ditch/cesspool/river? So a vampire in an urban setting wouldn't really be escaping with them. DnD presumes most walls are solid unless otherwise stated.

No the sewers wouldn't be filled there would be amble space for a mist creature to squeeze through. What we often think of as "sewers" are actually storm drains(or in D&D double as storm drains) and would have room for vampires to physically run down (unless of course there's a severe rain) So doing it in mist wouldn't be a problem at all. And really how many adventurers have adventuring parties going into the city sewers

Medieval stone walls were made with bricks and mortar and they're were rarely perfectly fitted it. Unless the wall is underground, relatively new or made from the wall of stone spell it have cracks here and there for a vampire to slip between bricks in mist form.(a clever vampire would make a point of finding these spots)

Additionally houses were clustered close together mere inches could separate you form your neighbor, provides a rather nice avenue for a vampire to slip through

[Milo v3]

I think the issue with sewers isn't one of space for the Vampire, but the vampires inability to cross running water ever. Sewers have soo much running water they would barely be able to get anywhere.

Though theoretically this should also screw over any vampire who walks across a street with a sewer under it.... But that's generally forgotten....

[ArcturusV]

That's what I was going for, not spacing, but he fact that even a tiny sliver of water traveling through the pipe/tunnel is an insurmountable barrier to the vampire, at least in mist form. So he wouldn't get far in sewers. Nor streets if your DM was sadistic about that. I know that bridges don't count for allowing them to cross, so it makes sense. A city is where you'd expect a vampire (Lots of cattle) but sounds like it'd actually be their worse nightmare to navigate, between temples, running water, tons of buildings that are off limits to them, etc.

[Alefiend]

In this case, the running water of folklore meant streams, rivers, and other large flowing bodies. It's up to the GM whether artificially flowing water counts, and at what volume it ceases to be a problem.

[Lord Vukodlak]

That's what I was going for, not spacing, but he fact that even a tiny sliver of water traveling through the pipe/tunnel is an insurmountable barrier to the vampire, at least in mist form. So he wouldn't get far in sewers. Nor streets if your DM was sadistic about that. I know that bridges don't count for allowing them to cross, so it makes sense.
Unless there has been heavy rains the water would be more or less stagnant(if it was present at all) and thus no obstacle to a vampire heavy rain was required to wash away sewage unless you had a sufficient aqueduct system in place.


In this case, the running water of folklore meant streams, rivers, and other large flowing bodies. It's up to the GM whether artificially flowing water counts, and at what volume it ceases to be a problem.
And what DM is going to count the city sewers? What DM is that nice to the players? The likely response would be natural bodies of waters or at the very least enough water to immerse the vampire. If taken to the literal extreme as Arcturus would have us. A vampire couldn't step over a live human being because his blood is running water.


A city is where you'd expect a vampire (Lots of cattle) but sounds like it'd actually be their worse nightmare to navigate, between temples, running water, tons of buildings that are off limits to them, etc. They can't enter the buildings without permission.(unless they are public places which ironically would include many temples especially good aligned ones) But they can easily weave between the narrow space between buildings in mist form. Where the PC's would be forced to barrel through a residential section of the city. Or try and get around and hopefully know which end the vampire is going to come out.

Of course many vampires masquerade as nobles which can give them and their servants a free pass to enter any and all buildings in the city.

[DrDeth]

Thanks guys, interesting points.

[Katana1515]

slightly off topic question but what would happen if you used baleful polymorph or flesh to stone on a vampire? would that induce the gasous form effect or would they be fixed in the new form? I am AFB at the moment so forgive me if this is a stupid question

[Traab]

Heck, i still want to know if you can forcibly teleport a vamp in gas form. No need to worry about its coffin then. Teleport it to another city and problem solved.

[Lord Vukodlak]

slightly off topic question but what would happen if you used baleful polymorph or flesh to stone on a vampire? would that induce the gasous form effect or would they be fixed in the new form? I am AFB at the moment so forgive me if this is a stupid question

Baleful Polymorph and flesh to stone are subject to fortitude saves but don't effect objects thus undead are immune. Polymorph any Object on the other hand... would leave it in a fixed form.


Heck, i still want to know if you can forcibly teleport a vamp in gas form. No need to worry about its coffin then. Teleport it to another city and problem solved.

You could teleport a still solid vampire into to the otherside of the word where the sun is up too.