Balancing the Order of the Stick

[stavro375]

So apparently high-level wizards in D&D are horribly, awfully overpowered, to the point where The Giant has indirectly compared Vaarsuvius in the Order to Superman being an FBI Agent:


There is a huge difference between EVERY main character having such powers, and ONLY ONE main character in a group of supposed equals having such powers. There is no power—no power in the world—that is story-breaking all by itself, especially if the author has the freedom to detail the costs and drawbacks of that power (a luxury I don't have with OOTS).

Superman by himself is not a problem. Superman as part of the Justice League is not a problem. Superman as a member of an ensemble FBI team IS a problem, because sometimes Agent Fred is supposed to be the one to catch the serial killer. You end up resorting to a LOT of kryptonite[Note this was in a thread about V constantly being "Benched"].

What would have to happen, from either a story or D&D mechanics perspective, to bring the rest of the Order's "effectiveness" (so to speak) to Vaarsuvius's level? Or is V's alleged ability to instantly end every conflict an inherently intractable problem?

[Fish]

The party would have to face a steady stream of magical threats that would take up V's spell slots.

[Zweisteine]

To bring Durkon's "effectiveness" to the same level as V's, he'd just have to focus on being effective rather than focusing on acting as his personality dictates (i.e. If the comic were a game of D&D, Durkon is a player focused on roleplaying over optimization).

You cannot bring the other members of the order to a wizard's level of strength. In D&D, a Wizard will eventually end up with game-breaking power, unless they choose not to.
V's personality will not allow him/her to NOT choose powerful spells if they are available, though V's personality also prevents him/her from making the best choices of spells.



That said, V does not, as you said, have the ability to instantly end any problem. However, having V in all of the Order's fights would result in the other members of the Order having considerably less to do.

(I'd say a lot more, but I don't have any more time right now.)

[Solse]

Everybody becomes a wizard.
Xykon is killed in 20 minutes.

[Ronnoc]

While V's deal with the IFCC is going to do a lot to curb V's potential to override the plot I think the single best way for the strip to override the tendency of casters to dominate is to continue treating the setting as a world rather than a game.

It's the rare D&D game where the party doesn't structure their adventuring day around the casters spell slots. Even the Order did this in early strips. With the plot gearing up it is highly unlikely that the Order will have time to wait for Durkon and V to prepare their spells every time they begin running dry.

A Vancian caster is an immense tactical resource, but one that comes at the expense of endurance. Putting the order in situations where V must prepare non-combat spells, or use AOE's to clear out swarms of mooks while the rest of the party goes after the boss should provide plenty of chances to shine for the rest of the group.

[SavageWombat]

You convert them to 4th ed.

We've been through this, people.

[KillianHawkeye]

You convert them to 4th ed.

We've been through this, people.

QFT.

The imbalance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters in an inherent quality of basically all of pre-4th Edition D&D. Most people view 3rd Edition to have been particularly flagrant in this regard, since many of the Wizard's weaknesses in older editions were removed or minimalized.

Still, it's hard to get past the concept that Magic > not-Magic.

[zimmerwald1915]

QFT.

The imbalance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters in an inherent quality of basically all of pre-4th Edition D&D. Most people view 3rd Edition to have been particularly flagrant in this regard, since many of the Wizard's weaknesses in older editions were removed or minimalized.

Still, it's hard to get past the concept that Magic > not-Magic.
Eh, magic should only be for villains anyway. Everyone knows the point of fantasy is to show ever-so-masculine heroes smash the effete spellcasters. Magic's corrupting influence can be seen in the cases of V and Durkon as compared to Roy, and Redcloak as opposed to Right-Eye.

[CRtwenty]

From a rules perspective there's no way to balance out the party outside of most of the Order using retraining rules to upgrade themselves to more powerful classes. Anyway off the top of my head.

Durkon: Potential wise he's just as strong as V. Clerics are very powerful, but Durkon doesn't really optimize his spell selection. Healing is not an efficient way to go through encounters. If he'd toss on some of the personal buff spells Clerics get along with his new vampire resistances and he could be a melee powerhouse that is resistant to most forms of damage.

Elan: Elan needs to use his spells a lot more. Bards have great buff spells that would make the rest of the party stronger, and a whole bunch of control spells he could use to make fights easier by incapacitating large amounts of enemies.

Haley: Archer Rogues are pretty weak in comparison to other builds. Haley is unlikely to change her entire build, so instead she needs to focus on ways to pop in and out of combat so she can hit vital targets with a sneak attack than vanish. A magic item that gives invisibility or concealment or something that lets her do short distance teleportation like Dimension Door would be invaluable for her.

Roy: Roy is actually a pretty solid Fighter. 2-handed weapons are the main way of pumping out melee damage in 3rd ed D&D. However Fighters are very, very underpowered in comparison to most other classes. Roy's main weakness is that he doesn't have any way to close with far away targets and he isn't specced for using ranged weapons. Something like Winged Boots that allow him to fly at will would go a long way towards helping him out here. A Ring of Regeneration would also help out a lot, allowing him to stay in combat without heals longer, and letting him recover to full health in between engagements.

Belkar: Belkar's build sucks. Seriously it's terrible. He's incapable or unwilling to use a large chunk of most of his Ranger class abilities. And his Barbarian skills are still too low level to be of much use. He needs to get a Wisdom enhancing item so he can at least start using his Ranger spells. This would give him some more options in combat.

[Reddish Mage]

What would have to happen, from either a story or D&D mechanics perspective, to bring the rest of the Order's "effectiveness" (so to speak) to Vaarsuvius's level? Or is V's alleged ability to instantly end every conflict an inherently intractable problem?

I think it says a lot about the comic that the Order of the Stick are functioning with such suboptimal builds. I tend to wonder if this is a hallmark of the games Rich plays in, or if it is a commentary on how to play D&D. Importantly, it doesn't seem like any of the members are gimped when it comes to their ability to contribute meaningfully to the group and to the story.

In fact, from that perspective, V is the one that needs help!

[Tiiba]

I find it a bit surprising, actually, that DND is so balanced, given that it's a game of swords and sorcery. If it was a game of guns and sorcery, yes, I'd understand. But come on, medieval weapons against superpowers? A bunch of "feats" against Incendiary Fog? Barbarian rage against Lightning Bolt?

And of course, if guns were introduced, they'd also be balanced somehow with a monk's unarmed fighting. That's why there aren't any scientists. No matter what you invent, it'll always be reigned in lest it "break the game". There will not be a spell that can kill every evil creature within ten miles, making a hardness check against the creature's soft fragile brain, instead of its battle-hardened will. No easy, non-evil way to obtain immortality. No first-level spell that does what a seventh-level spell used to do. No way to make the world a better place in a lasting way. No victory, no defeat. Only breathers and setbacks.

Behold the futility of your everlasting struggles, denizens of the Infinite Planes, and despair. And pray not to your gods, for they, too, wear the same shackles.

[HobbesB]

Retcon them all into Tomb of Battle classes for a start.

[Amphiox]

Roy: Roy is actually a pretty solid Fighter. 2-handed weapons are the main way of pumping out melee damage in 3rd ed D&D. However Fighters are very, very underpowered in comparison to most other classes. Roy's main weakness is that he doesn't have any way to close with far away targets and he isn't specced for using ranged weapons. Something like Winged Boots that allow him to fly at will would go a long way towards helping him out here. A Ring of Regeneration would also help out a lot, allowing him to stay in combat without heals longer, and letting him recover to full health in between engagements.

Basically, Roy can optimize himself by killing Tarquin and looting his smug corpse....

[Bulldog Psion]

I suppose the problem is that if magic actually existed, it would give those who could use it a strong advantage over those who could not.

In that regard, the magic rules are too realistic (in no others, but I'm saying that a guy who could throw a blast of fire from his fingertip to engulf an area in it really, really would be significantly more powerful and dangerous than a guy who can swing a sharpened piece of steel).

You can look at it from a technological perspective. The most skilled swordsman in the world would die, 99 times out of 100, if sent up against a skilled modern soldier with an automatic rifle, hand grenades, and a rocket launcher.

Our own world stinks at "balance." Is it any wonder that our fantasy worlds are also that way? :smallsmile:

If anything, D&D is more balanced than reality. The sword swinger can potentially chop the heck out of the wizard. A guy with a spear confronted by an assault helicopter is just dead.

[Reddish Mage]

I suppose the problem is that if magic actually existed, it would give those who could use it a strong advantage over those who could not.

In that regard, the magic rules are too realistic (in no others, but I'm saying that a guy who could throw a blast of fire from his fingertip to engulf an area in it really, really would be significantly more powerful and dangerous than a guy who can swing a sharpened piece of steel).

You can look at it from a technological perspective. The most skilled swordsman in the world would die, 99 times out of 100, if sent up against a skilled modern soldier with an automatic rifle, hand grenades, and a rocket launcher.

Our own world stinks at "balance." Is it any wonder that our fantasy worlds are also that way? :smallsmile:

If anything, D&D is more balanced than reality. The sword swinger can potentially chop the heck out of the wizard. A guy with a spear confronted by an assault helicopter is just dead.

See the problem with both cases is you are not recognizing that wizards are not Glass Cannons or Assault helicopters. Their powers are FAR more versatile and yet so much more able to do finer work! When V talks about wizards changing the very makeup of reality he could be meaning the game itself! The powers of the wizard allow them to bypass all sort of human limitations and to remake a battlefield, a dungeon, or (if the DM isn't careful) a story into one that is more suitable for them.

As I've mentioned in a "barbarian vs wizard" dual thread. To talk about damage potential and duels is to fundamentally misunderstand what a wizard is capable of. A wizard doesn't need to take on a barbarian directly, the wizard can summon creatures that are more powerful than the barbarian (or the wizard himself for that matter!)! The wizard can alter the battlefield so the barbarian would have to move through a maze just to get to the wizard! The wizard could set up for all sorts of contingencies, and can use all sorts of scry and die tactics. He can engage that barbarian from well beyond bow shot! A high level wizard can dominate another high level person for a matter of days!

Let the optimizers create mundanes all day that can dish out 100's of points of damage in one round! It just takes a new set up spells to make that warrior utterly useless!

[Prowl]

If anything, D&D is more balanced than reality. The sword swinger can potentially chop the heck out of the wizard. A guy with a spear confronted by an assault helicopter is just dead.

I've seen a Greek phalanx sink a battleship

[BaronOfHell]

Put it up as magic vs. non-magic and magic is of course better, as it's regarded as contributing. However that's not how I'd like the game to work. Spell casters ought to be frail individuals who spend so much time and effort on their studies that their own body suffer, as such they usually have low health and can't do much else apart from magic, and daily stuff.

On the other hand I'd like if a warrior was supposed to be beyond the prime example of fitness a given creature can achieve. A warrior should be able to move & act faster, punch harder, jump higher than what is reasonable.

At this stage, a magic user is still superior if the magic is sufficiently diverse, and the situation isn't very specific in favor of the warrior, but that's only the first part which illustrates the magic user is only that, a weak person who have control of powers way beyond himself, while a warrior is not dependent of this mysterious ability to cast spells, but will always have his level of fitness (at least until age penalties hits).

Now for the more important part, magic itself. In D&D magic is just there, sometimes it seems to require components, levels, etc., but it's a power rather easy acquirable.
A point made is that magic is too realistic, therefore it's overpowered, but I'd say it's not realistic enough. Magic is not a machine gun which works because someone else prepared it for you, it's something you've to study yourself, but since the acts of applying this magic is something only a magic user can do, it stands to reason it's not something which randomly happens for any being at any time. Therefore I'd argue magic isn't realistic enough, the procedures required for conjuring fire balls ought to be much more complex, and fire balls are some of the simplest parts. Imagine a contingency spell, to merely word it and have some greater understanding spirit of magic to understand that wording at every time, that's not realistic, in my opinion.

While I find it difficult to put my words exactly as I'd like, I do find that magic isn't too realistic, no it's rather the other way around, it's not realistic enough.

[Leolo]

I'd really like to see a balanced OOTS - i think that the giant is doing a great job finding ways for durkon and V to step back (or to be forced to step back), but it has been a little bit overused, and i don't see this problem getting any better. Readers do know that in the future V and Durkon will get benched again - and this lessens the tension. At least for me.

The higher level the order gets, the more tier 1 or 2 classes outshine the rest. Even Elan, who plays a tier 3 class is affected by this and has to be ignorant to spells that could help him.

So i do think the story could be better without this imbalance. But we would also loose some great rule jokes about 3.5 and as much as i like 4E: It doesn't make that much sense to do jokes about it's rules. There are much more 3.5 players than 4E players, so the chance to recognize something from the rules within the comic strip is much higher.

And at this point a conversion would also change the characters more than it is good for the story.

When 4E came out rich said he wouldn't make the switch. And this might have been the only time when this switch would have consistet of at least a little bit of sense anyway, because this was still near the time when the characters where starting to become deeper and the story had become more important. Now we are at a point where the story is evolving into the final climax, with maybe only 2 books left to write.

A balanced order would be great, but this would have to be the case from start on.

[Cerlis]

the thing is , that the system was basically designed around this. Magical members bring more to the party than non magical members. and non magical ones are basically like battlements or weapons. a strong force constantly there.

But my point is that V isnt some Deux ex machina that has to be shelved every so often.

He is a powerful player that

a) solves major problems so the order can deal with lesser but more complicated problems

B) go mono e mono with powerful magical forces that would otherwise do the same battlepwned V did in this strip...to the order.

C) enemies or conditions are such as to exploit the few(or many) weaknesses of a caster.

Emphasis on the last one.

V wasnt shelved with the Owlbear, he was grappled.

V wasnt shelved during the battle of Azure City, he put ALL of his power into a single encounter and ran out of spells. thus becoming useless (something that people who say wizards make better X than X tend to ignore or thinks never happens).

V wasnt shelved by an antimagic zone. the Antimagic zone was created in order to deal with magical criminals like V

These aren't magical plot devices that turns the Deux ex machine off. They are legitimate ways to neutralize a caster.

Basically because casters have this horrible weakness of being vulnerable to every day events that completely neutralize them.

----
Now sure, yes the Giant DOES make deliberate attempts to make sure that Vaarsuvius faces these problems during events in which he would otherwise turn the tides...but so what. That is one problem he faces

No different (from a narrative standpoint) than Roy losing his sword.

The problem is that it is THE thing that V has to overcome. You want tremendous magical power? Well then your direct adversary anything that would pull the rug out from under your ultimate magical power.(Bound and gagged scenarios is why Psionics is inherently better, even if you do have to spend more power points.)

-----------------

So basically, one doesnt need to balance the Order of the stick, because no parties even in shows like CSI have a "balanced party" . Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and often the most powerful characters have to face the fact that because they are so strong they often end up completely neutralized in any legitimate attempt to stop the party (such as sending the lead in a crime stopping show on a wild goose chase so he wont be there to stop X plot device)

We had a balanced V in the books where 3.5 went against 4.0 and indeed though her weaknesses where lowered his strengths where as well and i think that any interesting cast needs an ability to "let loose" once and awhile. and in this case Letting Loose isnt just V using her most powerful spells, but also Roys Great Cleavage and Durkon's OP (for his average party level) Vampire powers

[Roland Itiative]

The "balancing factor" for spellcasters is that they run out of power. Roy can swing his sword all day long, but V can "only" battle at full power for a few minutes, then he's completely useless and needs protection (or wasted a few spell slot foreseeing this, so he can protect himself). The problem is that, most of the time, this limitation doesn't really become apparent. The battle of Azure City is the only time I can remember that happening in the comic, and the Giant can't have every battle be a mass scale battle such as that. Guns vs. swords is a good metaphor, in that the gun is only useful when it has bullets.

This limitation makes for bad storytelling, though. And bad gameplay, too, specially considering most groups just rest when the spellcasters start running out of juice, unless time is short. So, the Giant has to go through loops to guarantee V doesn't use all his spells to deal with any combat situation they face quickly, and serves as the cavalry instead.

[GnomeGninjas]

I've seen a Greek phalanx sink a battleship

Where did you see this?

[Leolo]

Plus, without healing Roy runs out of HP faster than V or Durkon runs out of spells. Roy can swing his sword all day is not really true. He would go down.

[Karuth]

I would like to note that V has an additional problem that a Wizard in a D&d game usually does not have... he does not have time to think of the best solution for a given situation.

A player with a wizard (or casters in general) character can study his spell list while the other players are playing their turn to decide which spell would make the most out of a current situation. In fact many players when in a critical phase of a battle/story tend to take forever to decide on an action (I had single turns in games that took 30 minutes to resolve... 30 minutes for a decision that has to be decided within a second or two.)

A turn based system favors the character with the most options. However if there is no time to ponder which option is the best, a suboptimal choice is often the result (and better than hesitating and taking no action at all).

Durkon for example is portrayed as having average if not below average intelligence. This means he can't think up new tactics in battle as easily as V or Roy does. So he has trained himself to a standard set of tactics: Fight in melee, heal as necessary and maybe throw in a buff or two.

The same reason is behind regular emergency drills. Once the emergency is there every second counts. The few moments you waste on thinking which staircase to use or what you take with you could cost you your life. But a trained standard reaction sets in immediately and you move on instinct.

In-setting Durkon might waste valuable seconds deciding if he should heal a friend or send Thor's lightning at an approaching group, which could mean he can't do any of the two options. But trained Durkon does his standard reaction and heals his friend. Not optimal but better then nothing.
In-game Durkon would see his fallen friend is only at -1, none of the other 5 enemies is within range for a finishing melee attack (he can count the squares whereas he'd have to guess normally). Then he moves to the exactly the right spot to get 4 of the enemies in a straight line and fires his lightning bolt, knowing he can kill the 5th in his next round and heal his friend afterwards.

[Gil-Galad II]

Everybody becomes a wizard.
Xykon is killed in 20 minutes.

Eugene?! What are you doing here? :smalltongue:

[Morty]

I think the best way to 'balance' the Order is to realize that it's not the end of the world if one of the members kills more mooks than the other ones. Everyone contributes, in their own way.

[Kish]

Retcon them all into Tomb of Battle classes for a start.
Where fighting goes to die...

[Irenaeus]

I've seen a Greek phalanx sink a battleship
This made me smile. The memories. The frustration.

Where did you see this?
Civilization.

[Quild]

I haven't played a lot at D&D but I've read a lot of rules trying to see why wizards were better than sorcerers and why they were so powerful. Some of my conclusions were:

- Wizards have way more choices of spells.
- The low encounter rate in one day makes the number of spells slots not being as much troubles than it could be (but when playing Baldur's Gate sleeping is usually for the simple purpose of spells recovery).
- Some players chose to cheat ( - You had that spell prepared? / - Yeah, yeah...).
- Wizards/Sorceres are glasscannons. They're glad to have their meatshields.
- They lose lot of their firepower if they try to be polyvalent. A full group of wizards wouldn't be that great in some case.
- Some players/GM chose not to play with the whole components thing (or for that matter with the need of drinks, food, etc...)

Wizards are not unbalanced. They're just really powerful at dealing damages if they focus on it but often lame in anything else.


Also:

Everybody becomes a wizard.
Xykon is killed in 20 minutes.
Depends how prepared they are. We learned that Xykon is immune to fire damages thanks to his ring (or at least well protected). He seems to be able to deflect desintegrate. As a lich, I seem to remember he only takes half damages from lightning. And much more things we don't know or that I am forgetting.

Not knowing this, even a full group of wizards could very well end in this situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html), or in this other one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).

[Diadem]

This made me smile. The memories. The frustration.

Civilization.

Good old "Fortified Phalanx in a mountain city with a city walls". Oh man how I hated those.

Later games make combat a lot less random, which is generally a good thing, though I wouldn't want to have missed out on those memories.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I haven't played a lot at D&D but I've read a lot of rules trying to see why wizards were better than sorcerers and why they were so powerful. Some of my conclusions were:

- Wizards have way more choices of spells.
- The low encounter rate in one day makes the number of spells slots not being as much troubles than it could be (but when playing Baldur's Gate sleeping is usually for the simple purpose of spells recovery).
- Some players chose to cheat ( - You had that spell prepared? / - Yeah, yeah...).
- Wizards/Sorceres are glasscannons. They're glad to have their meatshields.
- They lose lot of their firepower if they try to be polyvalent. A full group of wizards wouldn't be that great in some case.
- Some players/GM chose not to play with the whole components thing (or for that matter with the need of drinks, food, etc...)

Wizards are not unbalanced. They're just really powerful at dealing damages if they focus on it but often lame in anything else.

No just no, Wizard (and spellcasters in general) can do whatever the hell they want, deal damage, battlefield control, diplomacy, sneaking, transport, knowledge, everything. in D&D there is an spell for that (yes, even that)

The problem with "mundane" characters is not that they don't deal enough damage (there are builds that deal damage that can only be expressed in scientific notation, builds that can one-shot any monster in any MM), the problem is that they simply don't do anything else.

Besides balance is relative, you could balance the party to V's level by having the rest of the order taking more powerful classes, for example Elan could take Sublime Chord levels to really kick his spellcasting, Roy could actually put his high Int to use and become a gish and so on. Or you could bring them "down" to the order's level (tier 4-ish), Durkon could become a Healer (the class from the miniature handbook), V would retrain into Warmage (CArc).

[F.Harr]

From a rules perspective there's no way to balance out the party outside of most of the Order using retraining rules to upgrade themselves to more powerful classes. Anyway off the top of my head.

Durkon: Potential wise he's just as strong as V. Clerics are very powerful, but Durkon doesn't really optimize his spell selection. Healing is not an efficient way to go through encounters. If he'd toss on some of the personal buff spells Clerics get along with his new vampire resistances and he could be a melee powerhouse that is resistant to most forms of damage.

Elan: Elan needs to use his spells a lot more. Bards have great buff spells that would make the rest of the party stronger, and a whole bunch of control spells he could use to make fights easier by incapacitating large amounts of enemies.

Haley: Archer Rogues are pretty weak in comparison to other builds. Haley is unlikely to change her entire build, so instead she needs to focus on ways to pop in and out of combat so she can hit vital targets with a sneak attack than vanish. A magic item that gives invisibility or concealment or something that lets her do short distance teleportation like Dimension Door would be invaluable for her.

Roy: Roy is actually a pretty solid Fighter. 2-handed weapons are the main way of pumping out melee damage in 3rd ed D&D. However Fighters are very, very underpowered in comparison to most other classes. Roy's main weakness is that he doesn't have any way to close with far away targets and he isn't specced for using ranged weapons. Something like Winged Boots that allow him to fly at will would go a long way towards helping him out here. A Ring of Regeneration would also help out a lot, allowing him to stay in combat without heals longer, and letting him recover to full health in between engagements.

Belkar: Belkar's build sucks. Seriously it's terrible. He's incapable or unwilling to use a large chunk of most of his Ranger class abilities. And his Barbarian skills are still too low level to be of much use. He needs to get a Wisdom enhancing item so he can at least start using his Ranger spells. This would give him some more options in combat.

But, but, but, what about our story about incompitant good against apathetic evil?


the thing is , that the system was basically designed around this. Magical members bring more to the party than non magical members. and non magical ones are basically like battlements or weapons. a strong force constantly there.

But my point is that V isnt some Deux ex machina that has to be shelved every so often.

He is a powerful player that

a) solves major problems so the order can deal with lesser but more complicated problems

B) go mono e mono with powerful magical forces that would otherwise do the same battlepwned V did in this strip...to the order.

C) enemies or conditions are such as to exploit the few(or many) weaknesses of a caster.

Emphasis on the last one.

V wasnt shelved with the Owlbear, he was grappled.

V wasnt shelved during the battle of Azure City, he put ALL of his power into a single encounter and ran out of spells. thus becoming useless (something that people who say wizards make better X than X tend to ignore or thinks never happens).

V wasnt shelved by an antimagic zone. the Antimagic zone was created in order to deal with magical criminals like V

These aren't magical plot devices that turns the Deux ex machine off. They are legitimate ways to neutralize a caster.

Basically because casters have this horrible weakness of being vulnerable to every day events that completely neutralize them.

----
Now sure, yes the Giant DOES make deliberate attempts to make sure that Vaarsuvius faces these problems during events in which he would otherwise turn the tides...but so what. That is one problem he faces

No different (from a narrative standpoint) than Roy losing his sword.

The problem is that it is THE thing that V has to overcome. You want tremendous magical power? Well then your direct adversary anything that would pull the rug out from under your ultimate magical power.(Bound and gagged scenarios is why Psionics is inherently better, even if you do have to spend more power points.)

-----------------

So basically, one doesnt need to balance the Order of the stick, because no parties even in shows like CSI have a "balanced party" . Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and often the most powerful characters have to face the fact that because they are so strong they often end up completely neutralized in any legitimate attempt to stop the party (such as sending the lead in a crime stopping show on a wild goose chase so he wont be there to stop X plot device)

We had a balanced V in the books where 3.5 went against 4.0 and indeed though her weaknesses where lowered his strengths where as well and i think that any interesting cast needs an ability to "let loose" once and awhile. and in this case Letting Loose isnt just V using her most powerful spells, but also Roys Great Cleavage and Durkon's OP (for his average party level) Vampire powers


I would like to note that V has an additional problem that a Wizard in a D&d game usually does not have... he does not have time to think of the best solution for a given situation.

A player with a wizard (or casters in general) character can study his spell list while the other players are playing their turn to decide which spell would make the most out of a current situation. In fact many players when in a critical phase of a battle/story tend to take forever to decide on an action (I had single turns in games that took 30 minutes to resolve... 30 minutes for a decision that has to be decided within a second or two.)

A turn based system favors the character with the most options. However if there is no time to ponder which option is the best, a suboptimal choice is often the result (and better than hesitating and taking no action at all).

Durkon for example is portrayed as having average if not below average intelligence. This means he can't think up new tactics in battle as easily as V or Roy does. So he has trained himself to a standard set of tactics: Fight in melee, heal as necessary and maybe throw in a buff or two.

The same reason is behind regular emergency drills. Once the emergency is there every second counts. The few moments you waste on thinking which staircase to use or what you take with you could cost you your life. But a trained standard reaction sets in immediately and you move on instinct.

In-setting Durkon might waste valuable seconds deciding if he should heal a friend or send Thor's lightning at an approaching group, which could mean he can't do any of the two options. But trained Durkon does his standard reaction and heals his friend. Not optimal but better then nothing.
In-game Durkon would see his fallen friend is only at -1, none of the other 5 enemies is within range for a finishing melee attack (he can count the squares whereas he'd have to guess normally). Then he moves to the exactly the right spot to get 4 of the enemies in a straight line and fires his lightning bolt, knowing he can kill the 5th in his next round and heal his friend afterwards.


No just no, Wizard (and spellcasters in general) can do whatever the hell they want, deal damage, battlefield control, diplomacy, sneaking, transport, knowledge, everything. in D&D there is an spell for that (yes, even that)

The problem with "mundane" characters is not that they don't deal enough damage (there are builds that deal damage that can only be expressed in scientific notation, builds that can one-shot any monster in any MM), the problem is that they simply don't do anything else.

Besides balance is relative, you could balance the party to V's level by having the rest of the order taking more powerful classes, for example Elan could take Sublime Chord levels to really kick his spellcasting, Roy could actually put his high Int to use and become a gish and so on. Or you could bring them "down" to the order's level (tier 4-ish), Durkon could become a Healer (the class from the miniature handbook), V would retrain into Warmage (CArc).

These are, I think, the major arguments so far. I think where this come down is, yes, a spell-caster CAN do a lot. A HELL of a lot. But they need to know ahead-of-time what it is they WANT to do. And, as pointed out, in a real-time situation (like the OotS-verse) you don't get to waste time making up your mind, the story of the dithering fox comes to mind. Furthermore, if the enemy (or DM) has prepared in advance to counter what you tend to do, you have no fallbacks. You can't turn the battle into a fistfight because you will LOOSE.

I rather think the point of these games is teamwork. Roy and Belkar deal-out the hurt. Haley works at long-range. V wields the sledgehammer as needed. Durkon and Elan heal, fight or otherwise support as the situation demands.

[Scurvy Cur]

Where did you see this?

Mildly ninja'd on this, but it deserves some explanation.

In the very first civilization, there were only two combat stats: attack and defense. The outcome of any combat contest was determined by the relative magnitude of the attacker's attack score and the defender's defense score. If memory serves, battleships had 12 attack, and phalanxes had 2 defense, and so the odds were 6:1 in the battleship's favor. This still left a lot of room for really silly lucky rolls, and you were always running a risk in that fight that the scrappy band of bronze-age spearmen would wreck the modern age naval behemoth.

Later versions of civ corrected this. Civ 2 added hit points and firepower scores to each unit, to reflect difficulty to kill the unit and how much damage the unit would do if it won the combat roll respectively. This helped reduce the odds of a phalanx-sinks-battleship phenomenon to statistical insignificance.

[Quild]

These are, I think, the major arguments so far. I think where this come down is, yes, a spell-caster CAN to a lot. A HELL of a lot. But they need to know ahead-of-time what it is they WANT to do. And, as pointed out in a real-time situation (like the OotS-verse) you don't get to waste time making up your mind, the story of the dithering fox comes to mind. Furthermore, if the enemy (or DM) has prepared in advance to counter what you tend to do, you have no fallbacks. You can't turn the battle into a fistfight because you will LOOSE.

I rather think the point of these games is teamwork. Roy and Belkar deal-out the hurt. Haley works at long-range. V wields the sledgehammer as needed. Durkon and Elan heal, fight or otherwise support as the situation demands.

Thanks for saying what I would have said in a less better way :)

Wizards can't be prepared for everything anytime plus being such great damage dealers.

[littlebum2002]

V could stop getting in as many encounters as the rest of the Order does, so they level up more quickly than she.

Oh wait, that's already happening

[Dusk Eclipse]

Cough (http://dndtools.eu/feats/exemplars-of-evil--64/uncanny-forethought--3009/) You were saying?

Edit: And Wizards don't need to be damage dealers, anyone can be damage dealer

[Quild]

Cough (http://dndtools.eu/feats/exemplars-of-evil--64/uncanny-forethought--3009/) You were saying?

Edit: And Wizards don't need to be damage dealers, anyone can be damage dealer

Seems pretty cheesy and broken at high level to me. Do most GMs allow that?

Still, one of my arguments about why wizards were that powerful was the low number of encounters in one day. Make them face 2 or 3 fights a day and see how spellcasters manage that compared to others.

Xykon made a really poor use of this spells, but in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) he starts to be out of spells and... That could have been really bad for him.

[Roland Itiative]

Plus, without healing Roy runs out of HP faster than V or Durkon runs out of spells. Roy can swing his sword all day is not really true. He would go down.
I'm assuming no damage taken here. If we add that to the equation it needs to be added to both sides. V's HP runs out much faster than Roy's HP. He can use magic to protect himself, but not completely.

As for Durkon... Clerics are OP :smalltongue:

[Origomar]

I haven't played a lot at D&D but I've read a lot of rules trying to see why wizards were better than sorcerers and why they were so powerful. Some of my conclusions were:

- Wizards have way more choices of spells.
- The low encounter rate in one day makes the number of spells slots not being as much troubles than it could be (but when playing Baldur's Gate sleeping is usually for the simple purpose of spells recovery).
- Some players chose to cheat ( - You had that spell prepared? / - Yeah, yeah...).
- Wizards/Sorceres are glasscannons. They're glad to have their meatshields.
- They lose lot of their firepower if they try to be polyvalent. A full group of wizards wouldn't be that great in some case.
- Some players/GM chose not to play with the whole components thing (or for that matter with the need of drinks, food, etc...)

Wizards are not unbalanced. They're just really powerful at dealing damages if they focus on it but often lame in anything else.



thats actually the exact opposite of what wizards are(the highest damages in the game that isn't something cheesy that wouldnt work in game anyway like the locate city bomb are things like uberchargers and war hulk hulking hurlers). Wizards are mainly used for battlefield control and stat reducers+save or die spells.

Their strength comes in the fact that they can literally prepare for ANYTHING and have a massive variety of powerful options in regards to everything.

Sorcerers are more like what you described("mailman sorcerers are atleast), but still not exactly.


Anyone that doesnt understand that wizards are literally superior in every way needs to go to the 3.5 forums on this website and ask for an explanation. There are ways around pretty much every supposed weakness that a wizard has once they get to a certain level and even before they get broken spells they are still strong.

You basically just have to judge wether or not its worth being that paranoid in a game thats supposed to be fun, and in some games where its supposed to be challenging it is.


(i keep editing this) That being said the giant did a very good job of gimping V to make sure dumb things that can happen in games, will not happen in this comic.(for example banning the two strongest spell schools in favor of evocation , one of the weakest, and making him not high enough level to use wish).


Also "not being prepared for everything" is actually incorrect.

[The MunchKING]

This made me smile. The memories. The frustration.

Civilization.

How did you get the Phalanx to attack a Navel Unit?

[F.Harr]

Cough (http://dndtools.eu/feats/exemplars-of-evil--64/uncanny-forethought--3009/) You were saying?

Edit: And Wizards don't need to be damage dealers, anyone can be damage dealer

I don't know. That seams like a way to deal with a DM who can't forshadow worth beans or players who can't take a hint.

Wizard's


strength comes in the fact that they can literally prepare for ANYTHING and have a massive variety of powerful options in regards to everything.



That you can prepare for anything is one thing. But can they prepare for everything at once? How many of those spell slots do you need to use to prepare for every single possible thing that can happen?

[Origomar]

I don't know. That seams like a way to deal with a DM who can't forshadow worth beans or players who can't take a hint.

Wizard's


That you can prepare for anything is one thing. But can they prepare for everything at once? How many of those spell slots do you need to use to prepare for every single possible thing that can happen?


they can prepare for everything better than anyone else can, and generally better than someone else can prepare for one thing.

Celerity is a good example of something that is just ridiculous in pretty much every situation.(and is a fourth level spell)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Heres a good guide on what im talking about(they know way more about it than i do)

[Yoyoyo]

The best way to balance a party is through GM action and that is exactly what the Giant is doing. Creating circumstances to neutralize V in various ways so s/he does not impact every encounter and render the rest of the party irrelevant. "Grappling the caster" or juicing saving throws or creating pre-encounter strategies to minimize a caster's power and, hopefully, test their game play ability and ingenuity makes the game more fun for everyone involved--caster included. It gets boring for everyone when all problems are solved by a fireball. Or several fireballs.

A great example comes courtesy of Red Cloak:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

Or even having a spell fail once in awhile works too (granted, that's Durkon, but point is the same):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html

[F.Harr]

they can prepare for everything better than anyone else can, and generally better than someone else can prepare for one thing.

Celerity is a good example of something that is just ridiculous in pretty much every situation.(and is a fourth level spell)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Heres a good guide on what im talking about(they know way more about it than i do)

So, what you're telling me is that it is possible and likely for a wizard to prepare for every single possible eventuality and to prepare enough iterations of a spell so that it cannot run out at an inconvenient time.

O.K., what do I know?

[Forbiddenwar]

A wizard's balance is through DM action or inaction. Players seem to take for granted that any and every spell in D&D, all third party splats and anything every homebrewed is available to a wizard to cast. This is not the case. Wizards are restricted by what spell the DM allows the Wizard to gain on level up and what spells the DM allows the wizard to find and acquire. Whole quests can be made in order to find and acquire a spell such as fireball, if the DM chooses to.

Now Codzilla is just silly in comparison.

[MtlGuy]

Folks often forget that before Wizards become powerful, they're just a guy/gal in a bathrobe that's one crossbow bolt or claw/bite/claw away from death. This was particularly true in AD&D, you start off significantly weaker than in later editions like 3.5/Pathfinder. V, obviously, is waaay past that point.

Give the mage too little power and they become the comic relief like on He-Man, seemingly perpetually casting prestigitation on everything and not really being able to contribute.

[Reddish Mage]

A wizard's balance is through DM action or inaction. Players seem to take for granted that any and every spell in D&D, all third party splats and anything every homebrewed is available to a wizard to cast. This is not the case. Wizards are restricted by what spell the DM allows the Wizard to gain on level up and what spells the DM allows the wizard to find and acquire. Whole quests can be made in order to find and acquire a spell such as fireball, if the DM chooses to.

Now Codzilla is just silly in comparison.

That's not a standard way to DM, and in the absence of making magical items difficult to obtain for everyone, looks like your picking on the wizard.

Also no one is talking homebrew, you can create homebrewed ways to try to reign in the wizard, but its really difficult. May make your game less fun in the process too.


Folks often forget that before Wizards become powerful, they're just a guy/gal in a bathrobe that's one crossbow bolt or claw/bite/claw away from death. This was particularly true in AD&D, you start off significantly weaker than in later editions like 3.5/Pathfinder. V, obviously, is waaay past that point.

Give the mage too little power and they become the comic relief like on He-Man, seemingly perpetually casting prestigitation on everything and not really being able to contribute.


No one is forgetting the fact (if they are the types to start play before level 6), The tiers of play are just an awful way to justify balance issues.

[Boogastreehouse]

I think it looks nice with a little space here

I think it's important to point out that the lack of "balance" of which many of you seem concerned about is only in their combat power. Consider first the fact that it was Elan—often considered the weakest character—that freed everyone from Girard's illusion trap. It was Haley who figured out the Xykon-shell-game-trick during the battle of Azure City. Each member of the party has strengths and weakness that go far beyond determining how much damage they can do to some goblins.

Second, as a long-time player of D&D and a long-time consumer of stories with an element of adventure in them, I have to say that having a variety of power-levels often makes things more interesting. In D&D the Wizard might be the most powerful, but the other character-classes contribute in different ways. The Fighter may not be as powerful as a Wizard, but they both help to keep the other alive—the fighter is much more effective with a good wizard around, and the Wizard is much more effective with a good fighter around. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer (just the first example that springs to mind), Xander is usually the weakest character around, but he does contribute, usually in ways that other characters hadn't thought of. In the Avengers, Captain America is far weaker than Thor, yet he leads the group, and helps Thor to focus his tremendous powers where they will be most effective.

Also...

The thing it seems people are forgetting is that Vaarsuvius isn't the only character that's ever been benched, and that characters aren't only benched to keep them from overpowering the challenges and obstacles. It's Rich's story, and if he worries that his obstacles are insufficient, he has any number of options at his disposal including simply making the obstacles more formidable in the first place.

Roy has gone without his weapon on numerous occasions, for instance, and also spent a great deal of time on another plane of existence. He wasn't benched because he was too powerful for the story-arcs that were unfolding at those times. He was separated so that we, the readers, could see how the team would fall apart without his guidance. He was weakened so that we would see how he handled such a burden. These periods were vital to Roy's development, and each occasion was an opportunity for him to learn more about his friends and himself.

Belkar spent a great deal of time essentially benched due to the Mark of Justice. Was this because Belkar was so powerful that he would have derailed the plot? Obviously not. It's Belkar.

Haley spent a great length of time unable to talk. It wasn't to keep her from interfering with the plot. It was the plot.

That's what this is. V isn't being benched so that he or she would otherwise overpower the plot; V is being hindered by trials and handicapped by obstacles because that is the plot. We get to see how Vaasuvius grows as a character and manages to find a way to victory despite these difficult restrictions.

I think it looks nice with a little space here

[warrl]

I find it a bit surprising, actually, that DND is so balanced, given that it's a game of swords and sorcery. If it was a game of guns and sorcery, yes, I'd understand. But come on, medieval weapons against superpowers? A bunch of "feats" against Incendiary Fog? Barbarian rage against Lightning Bolt?

For that matter:

Barbarian Rage:

Free action during own turn to invoke
+4 Str
+4 Con
+2 on Will saves
Duration: ConMod+3 rounds
Uses: 1 per day at level 1, +1 at levels 4/8/12/etc; limit once per encounter
-2 AC
loses most skills based on Cha Dex or Int
loses Concentration
loses spellcasting (if any), and magic-item-uses that require specific acts to trigger
loses Combat Expertise and certain other feats.
When it expires he is Fatigued


(most caster classes) Bear's Endurance + Bull's Strength:

2 Standard actions to invoke (subject to metamagic)
+4 Con.
+4 Str
Duration is (caster level * 10) rounds (assuming 6-second rounds).
Uses: Two level-2-or-higher spell slots. For a Cleric fake-Barbarian that's once per day beginning level 3, at least one additional use per day for each level from 5 up. No other limit on per-encounter uses, but will almost-never need it twice per encounter.


The superiority of Bear's Endurance + Bull's Strength over Rage is pretty obvious. The downside is the time to activate it and the absence of a bonus to Will saves. The upside is the longer duration and the absence of deductions and disabilities.

Of course, this is far from optimal use of a caster's abilities... but if you want to play a Barbarian for the Rage, Cleric is a better class to choose.

[Reddish Mage]

That's what this is. V isn't being benched so that he or she would otherwise overpower the plot; V is being hindered by trials and handicapped by obstacles because that is the plot. We get to see how Vaasuvius grows as a character and manages to find a way to victory despite these difficult restrictions.

I applaud you Boogastreehouse.

[Scow2]

Of course, this is far from optimal use of a caster's abilities... but if you want to play a Barbarian for the Rage, Cleric is a better class to choose.
Actually, the Barbarian's still better as a Rager than a Cleric Faux-Rager: The barbarian's bonuses stack with other enhancement bonuses and scale with level. They're also on a better chassis - The Cleric needs Divine Power to offset the lower accuracy and hit die. A Clericzerker also is more MAD than a Barbarian.

The cleric makes up for the lack of a +2 Will save by having a superior Good will save (Unless the Barbarian Rage keeps up with it).

[CombatOwl]

So apparently high-level wizards in D&D are horribly, awfully overpowered, to the point where The Giant has indirectly compared Vaarsuvius in the Order to Superman being an FBI Agent:



What would have to happen, from either a story or D&D mechanics perspective, to bring the rest of the Order's "effectiveness" (so to speak) to Vaarsuvius's level? Or is V's alleged ability to instantly end every conflict an inherently intractable problem?

Roy would need to retrain either into single class melee smash cleric or MAYBE warblade.

Durkon is fine.

Belkar... uhh, he's kind of hosed since he doesn't have the wisdom for druid.

Haley... maybe go into unseen seer?

[Dusk Eclipse]

A wizard's balance is through DM action or inaction. Players seem to take for granted that any and every spell in D&D, all third party splats and anything every homebrewed is available to a wizard to cast. This is not the case. Wizards are restricted by what spell the DM allows the Wizard to gain on level up and what spells the DM allows the wizard to find and acquire. Whole quests can be made in order to find and acquire a spell such as fireball, if the DM chooses to.

Now Codzilla is just silly in comparison.

Claiming something isn't broken because it can be fixed is a fallacy, the Oberoni fallacy IIRC. No matter what the DM does or doesn't do, by the rules spellcasters are much more powerful than non-casters, and in the case of D&D you can't balance them without fundamentally altering how the game works (4e is the best example of this, WotC had to change the entire framework of the game so it would be "balanced").


I think it looks nice with a little space here

I think it's important to point out that the lack of "balance" of which many of you seem concerned about is only in their combat power. Consider first the fact that it was Elan—often considered the weakest character—that freed everyone from Girard's illusion trap. It was Haley who figured out the Xykon-shell-game-trick during the battle of Azure City. Each member of the party has strengths and weakness that go far beyond determining how much damage they can do to some goblins.

Second, as a long-time player of D&D and a long-time consumer of stories with an element of adventure in them, I have to say that having a variety of power-levels often makes things more interesting. In D&D the Wizard might be the most powerful, but the other character-classes contribute in different ways. The Fighter may not be as powerful as a Wizard, but they both help to keep the other alive—the fighter is much more effective with a good wizard around, and the Wizard is much more effective with a good fighter around. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer (just the first example that springs to mind), Xander is usually the weakest character around, but he does contribute, usually in ways that other characters hadn't thought of. In the Avengers, Captain America is far weaker than Thor, yet he leads the group, and helps Thor to focus his tremendous powers where they will be most effective.

Also...

The thing it seems people are forgetting is that Vaarsuvius isn't the only character that's ever been benched, and that characters aren't only benched to keep them from overpowering the challenges and obstacles. It's Rich's story, and if he worries that his obstacles are insufficient, he has any number of options at his disposal including simply making the obstacles more formidable in the first place.

Roy has gone without his weapon on numerous occasions, for instance, and also spent a great deal of time on another plane of existence. He wasn't benched because he was too powerful for the story-arcs that were unfolding at those times. He was separated so that we, the readers, could see how the team would fall apart without his guidance. He was weakened so that we would see how he handled such a burden. These periods were vital to Roy's development, and each occasion was an opportunity for him to learn more about his friends and himself.

Belkar spent a great deal of time essentially benched due to the Mark of Justice. Was this because Belkar was so powerful that he would have derailed the plot? Obviously not. It's Belkar.

Haley spent a great length of time unable to talk. It wasn't to keep her from interfering with the plot. It was the plot.

That's what this is. V isn't being benched so that he or she would otherwise overpower the plot; V is being hindered by trials and handicapped by obstacles because that is the plot. We get to see how Vaasuvius grows as a character and manages to find a way to victory despite these difficult restrictions.

I think it looks nice with a little space here

I agree with your points, but I have to note that they only work for a story, not for a D&D campaing, seriously if I was V's player and was constantly benched so I can't interfere with the plot I would say "screw it, I'll roll another character". When playing D&D (or any TTRPG for that matter), you can't (or shouldn't) have more than a rough plot line, because players will do things you didn't expect, the will figure how to kill your inmortal villain 10 levelos before they ought to, they can die to a random goblin that you just threw in to spice a combat-lite session.

[Oko and Qailee]

Actually, the Barbarian's still better as a Rager than a Cleric Faux-Rager: The barbarian's bonuses stack with other enhancement bonuses and scale with level. They're also on a better chassis - The Cleric needs Divine Power to offset the lower accuracy and hit die. A Clericzerker also is more MAD than a Barbarian.

The cleric makes up for the lack of a +2 Will save by having a superior Good will save (Unless the Barbarian Rage keeps up with it).

Except a cleric rager gets other spells in addition to all that. I would only take a level in Totem barbarian for pounce.

But a standard cleric rager vs a standard barbarian, the standard cleric rager actually ends up winning.

[Oko and Qailee]

I agree with your points, but I have to note that they only work for a story, not for a D&D campaing, seriously if I was V's player and was constantly benched so I can't interfere with the plot I would say "screw it, I'll roll another character".


To be fair though, V has gotten a lot of good moments though.

Just now for example, darth V, Azure City.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Those where how many years ago? Still not that relevant to my point. The Giant has said he has had to bench V for story reasons and that is completely fine within the context of a story, but not from a gaming-context.

[Morty]

Another of the threads that remind me why I don't play D&D anymore and occasionally wish OotS wasn't shackled to it.

[Boogastreehouse]

I think it looks nice with a little space here


I agree with your points, but I have to note that they only work for a story, not for a D&D campaing, seriously if I was V's player and was constantly benched so I can't interfere with the plot I would say "screw it, I'll roll another character". When playing D&D (or any TTRPG for that matter), you can't (or shouldn't) have more than a rough plot line, because players will do things you didn't expect, the will figure how to kill your inmortal villain 10 levelos before they ought to, they can die to a random goblin that you just threw in to spice a combat-lite session.


True. In D&D you don't bench characters, because it's not quite a story-telling exercise so much as it's a game of challenges devised by the GM that ends up also telling a story.

Rich can bench characters, however, because it's not a game. He can use storytelling tools that are not as available to people sitting around a table because he is in total control.

While playing a game, the GM has to take the unexpected events that occur and work with them. This can also be a fun exercise. If a player can't make it to the game that week, then the character is benched, and the GM has to work the reasons into the narrative.

But V wasn't benched because her/his player couldn't make it to the game any more than he/she was benched because she/he is too powerful for the encounter:

Rich is in control of everything and he sets up the scenes based on what the characters need to do in order to progress as characters. Then he figures out if anyone needs to be hindered in some way to keep the scene on track. If Belkar's evil tendencies would get in the way of the scene, for instance, then Belkar would get benched, which might mean he has a spell cast on him, or he is distracted by other events, or he walks out of the scene stating that he has no interest in the events. Whatever fits the character and the circumstances, the end results is that Belkar gets benched all the time, as does Elan, Roy, Haley, Durkon and Vaarsuvius. People are constantly being put at a disadvantage of some sort to keep the story going. It just happens in ways that the readers don't tend to notice.

Nowadays, V's power level happens to be a bit more conspicuous, so people who tend to focus on that sort of thing are starting to notice it more when V gets benched.

I'll restate this: Getting benched. It's been happening all along to everybody; that's what happens in stories. It's just that people who tend to focus on the mechanics are growing more aware of it now with V.


I think it looks nice with a little space here

[Ghost Nappa]

The party would have to face a steady stream of magical threats that would take up V's spell slots.

Pretty much this. They would have to be forced into a lot of situations where they did not have time to rest and thus V would start off very powerful only to very quickly be overshadowed as the day went on and V ran out of spells.

Durkon is still very much their most powerful character, still perfectly capable of functioning in Melee.

[PhallicWarrior]

Eh, magic should only be for villains anyway. Everyone knows the point of fantasy is to show ever-so-masculine heroes smash the effete spellcasters. Magic's corrupting influence can be seen in the cases of V and Durkon as compared to Roy, and Redcloak as opposed to Right-Eye.

OK, I get that sarcasm=bluetext but there's such a vast gulf in sarcasm levels between "Fantasy is all about manly gay-bashing" and "Durkon is an example of magic as a corrupting influence." The dissonance makes my fragile skull hurt.

[AllisterH]

This may sound weird but if Rich went back to an EARLIER edition of D&D, it would be easier to keep magic users in check....

Sure, a 20th level wizard in 1e/2e is more powerful in terms of capabilities than a 20th level warrior but the difference in efect is nowhere near as pronounced as 3e