[Pathfinder] Rage Prophet-I mean Barbarian/Oracle advice?

[Beowulf DW]

EDIT: So, after some thought, Rage Prophet still probably isn't very good no matter how you slice it. So, any ideas on how to do a decent Barbarian/Oracle? I'm looking for more Fighty than Casty, but I am open to suggestions.

So, I've always been intrigued by the Rage Prophet. It seems to be a class designed for characters like Ar-Ulric or even the Shaman from ME2. However, I'm always confronted with the argument that an Oracle/Barbarian with no Rage Prophet levels could accomplish the whole 50/50 Oracle Barbarian act better even without the PrC to tie them together. Then I took a closer look at the requirements and class abilities of the Rage Prophet. It only takes one level of Oracle to qualify for this class, and as far as my friends (some of whom are also my GMs) and I can tell the Savage Seer class feature allows a Rage Prophet to use his Barbarian and RP levels rather than Oracle levels to determine the effects of revelations and curses (two of them even said that they'd allow the ability to count towards my barbarian level for qualifying for rage powers and revelations gained through feats).

With all of this in mind, I'm approaching the Rage Prophet not as a way to tie the Oracle and Barbarian together, but rather as a way to play a barbarian that can cast. The plan here is to use only one level of Oracle, resulting in 8 caster levels by the end of the class. I figure that the priority for my stats will be something like STR>CON>CHA>everything else.

So, what I asking for here is suggestions on feats, rage powers, mysteries and curses. I mean, in your opinions, do the Spirit Totem rage powers suddenly become worth it to the Rage Prophet? What kind of Revelations would be most useful (I figure that most will come from the Ancestor, Battle and Metal mysteries)? Any ideas, my fellow Playgrounders?

[grarrrg]

However, I'm always confronted with the argument that an Oracle/Barbarian with no Rage Prophet levels could accomplish the whole 50/50 Oracle Barbarian act better even without the PrC to tie them together.

Quite.
One of the big hits against the class is that it doesn't give you any more Revelations/Rage Powers. Yes, you can always 'take a feat'. But you shouldn't have to.
Another hit is the 3/4 Bab AND 7/10 casting. If either was Full, it'd be OK.


and as far as my friends (some of whom are also my GMs) and I can tell the Savage Seer class feature allows a Rage Prophet to use his Barbarian and RP levels rather than Oracle levels to determine the effects of revelations and curses

Yeah...it's horribly worded.
The intent is pretty obvious.
Rage Prophet stacks with Oracle for Curse and Revelation strength.
Rage Prophet stacks with Barbarian for Rage Power strength.


(two of them even said that they'd allow the ability to count towards my barbarian level for qualifying for rage powers and revelations gained through feats).

It's a start.


So, what I asking for here is suggestions on feats, rage powers, mysteries and curses. I mean, in your opinions, do the Spirit Totem rage powers suddenly become worth it to the Rage Prophet? What kind of Revelations would be most useful (I figure that most will come from the Ancestor, Battle and Metal mysteries)? Any ideas, my fellow Playgrounders?

Personally? I'd use my 1 level of Oracle and grab one of the Revelations that grants CHA to AC (either Nature or Lore), grab the Noble Scion feat, dump DEX, and not bother with any more Revelations.
That being said, since you'll (apparently) be allowed to use Prophet levels to QUALIFY for Revelations...
Lame is your standard pick for Barbarian multiclass, getting you Immunity to Fatigue sooner than later, combine this with the 1/Rage Barbarian powers and you're good to go.
Next best would be Wolfscarred for the Bite attack (possibly paired with Deaf through Dual-Cursed if desired).
Next up would be one of the "eh" curses that doesn't really do anything. Legalistic, Tongues, etc...

Skip Ancestor, not enough worthwhile Revelations.

Battle has Maneuver Mastery, that can snag you Imp/Greater versions of a Maneuver withOUT needing the Pre-reqs. FINALLY a (non-Monk) Tripper without 13 INT!
Surprising Charge is nice for the semi-Pounce, but only useable 2/day without at least 5 levels of Oracle.
War Sight is always nice for the Initiative reroll, and Surprise round.
And Weapon Mastery can help make up for your reduced Bab.
Battle also grants Enlarge Person as your first Mystery spell.

Metal offers Armor Mastery which is great to take if you did NOT take Lame, otherwise it's fairly poor.
Dance of Blades is great if you DID take Lame, canceling the penalty.
The rest are less great, or require more work.

Overall, I'd go with (lore+noble scion) Battle.



For the Barbarian side of things.
The 3 Beast Totem feats get you Pounce.
Spirit totem is a good choice, note that the Spirits can still attack regardless of what else you are doing.
Powerful Blow and/or Surprise Accuracy are decent choices that will scale with you.

[Beowulf DW]

Yeah...it's horribly worded.
The intent is pretty obvious.
Rage Prophet stacks with Oracle for Curse and Revelation strength.
Rage Prophet stacks with Barbarian for Rage Power strength.

Just saying how my group interpreted it. Yeah, we're pretty sure it's a typo, but we're running with it.

[Beowulf DW]

Edited the first post. Anyone have any brilliant ideas for a Barboracle or maybe even a Clerbarian? Or should I just give up on this entire concept?

[Psyren]

I really don't see the big deal against Rage Prophet. Sure it doesn't give you more Rage Powers or Revelations, but alternating between Barbarian and Oracle you'd have missed those anyway, and at least it does stack for the strength of the ones you have. It also advances casting.

There aren't many other ways to cast while raging, even if you give up 3 CL to do it.

[grarrrg]

I really don't see the big deal against Rage Prophet. Sure it doesn't give you more Rage Powers or Revelations, but alternating between Barbarian and Oracle you'd have missed those anyway, and at least it does stack for the strength of the ones you have. It also advances casting.

There aren't many other ways to cast while raging, even if you give up 3 CL to do it.

Prepare for Rant.
Spoilered for length.

The main issue is that the class plays it MUCH too safe with regards to being a Hybrid class, especially for a Hybrid that demands specific classes be used to enter.
This is most obvious with the 3/4 Bab and 7/10 casting.

While it's levels stack for the effects of Rage Powers/Revelations/Curses (horrible wording), they don't stack for qualifying for them, a lot of the better stuff requires much higher levels.

The majority of the abilities are weak/bad. A lot look good, until you realize that with all the lost caster levels, it's more playing 'catch-up' than it is getting an actual bonus.

3rd level you can cast Cure spells on yourself without having to use "Clarity of Mind" (horrible writing again, the ability is Moment of Clarity).
Moment of Clarity itself is one of those powers you don't want to have to use. While Raging, you don't get any bonus/penalties from Raging for the round you use it, but it still costs a round of Rage. For Rage-Cyclers this is useless.
At 8th level you can cast "personal range" spells on yourself without having to use Moment of Clarity.
I will grant you, that this works wonderfully with any/all Immediate/Swift action spells. That are either Cure or 'range personal'.
So much for "casting while Raging".

CON to Concentration at level 3? You're down at least 3 caster levels already, so your CON better be at least 16.

Ragecaster at 4? You get to add Barb levels to your Caster level, but ONLY when using Moment of Clarity, YAY! for _almost_ every level of lost casting I get a bonus.
Ragecaster at 7? You get a near useless bonus to DC. Your DC's get a boost equal to your Constitution bonus _while Raging_.
Think on that a second.
Without using Moment of Clarity, you can only cast Cure or Personal spells on yourself. So you have to use Moment of Clarity to cast something that actually makes use of a Save DC. OH! That's right! Moment of Clarity _removes your Raging-CON bonus_ when you use it. And by this point, you're already down 4 caster levels/2 spell levels, so you have weaker spells to start with.

Enduring Rage at 6th lets you sacrifice Spell Slots (remember, down at least 4 Caster levels at this point) for extra rounds of Rage. That's right, Rage Prophet doesn't stack for round of Rage. But at level 6 of the class (character level 12 minimum), you can FINALLY get more Rage.

As the "capstone" you get Greater Rage. At character level 16.

I will grant you, that after level 5 of the class, the Spirit Guide ability becomes handy, but only vs. certain types of enemies, and only then if you Rage-Cycle. Because Spirit Guide is only useable 1/Rage.

A multiclass Barbarian/Oracle, or even straight class Oracle is better off.


If you want a true multiclass of Barbarian/Oracle, go with Battle Oracle, and skew more towards the Oracle than the Barbarian.
Otherwise a Barbarian with a dip in Oracle is quite solid on it's own.
I'd have better ideas, but I'm tired from the rant.
Check back tomorrow...or Friday...

[avr]

If you take just one level as an oracle (lore mystery, seer archetype) you can get natural divination at the start, and if desired spend feats on extra revelations for more oracular abilities. Focused trance would stack with natural divination for 30 added to an intelligence based skill check, for example. Mostly this would expand your out of combat utility.

If you want to mix them in combat it's harder. Holy vindicator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindicator) is a cleric PrC which could benefit from more HP and some of its abilities could be useful in a rage. It doesn't advance any barbarian abilities other than being full BAB though.

[Psyren]

A multiclass Barbarian/Oracle, or even straight class Oracle is better off.

See, bold is what I disagree with, unless you're talking a Barbarian dip on an Oracle main (and why would you do that?) Of course a straight Oracle is more powerful, straight casters are always more powerful. Straight Wizard will kick Eldritch Knight's ass any day of the week and twice on sundays, that's not the point and never was. Even with 4 CL lost, this will still mop the floor with a straight Barb thanks to Oracle spells. Blessing of Fervor alone destroys almost every rage power out there.

The PrC is for people that want to combine Oracle and Barbarian and actually feel like both halves are combining in some way, rather than playing an Oracle who had an anger management problem at some point in her past or something.

I'll give you the qualification point, but that's easy enough to ask the DM for since they have to spend feats to get more revelations or rage powers anyway.

MoC is for people that aren't cheesing away the fatigue penalty. "Rage cycling" effectively gets you an ability that requires Barbarian 17 at a much lower level. Many DMs look askance at the practice. But it's RAW so I'll leave it there.

Why would your Con not be 16? Especially while raging?

[grarrrg]

See, bold is what I disagree with, unless you're talking a Barbarian dip on an Oracle main

Nope. The abilities of Prophet are mostly garbage/flavor. Any multiclass that gets similar casting will be better.
Rage Prophet 10 is worse than 7 levels of Oracle and 3 of Barbarian.

Compare:
Barbarian 12, Oracle 8 vs. Barbarian 8/Oracle 2/Prophet 10 (Barb 9/Oracle 1 is decidedly worse)
I'd put the advantage with the Non-Prophet, it has about the same casting, more abilities, and more useful abilities. Slightly better Bab, and not having to waste feats to get more Rage Powers/Revelations.
(ignoring feats) 3 Revelations is a lot better than just 1, and 6 Rage Powers is better than 4 (especially the ones that require 10+ levels).
Archetypes/Favored Class bonuses also factor bigger into the Multiclass.



Even with 4 CL lost, this will still mop the floor with a straight Barb thanks to Oracle spells. Blessing of Fervor alone destroys almost every rage power out there.

?
Agreed. Casting > Smashing.
But just because Rage Prophet > Barbarian does not mean Rage Prophet > Barb/Oracle.


The PrC is for people that want to combine Oracle and Barbarian and actually feel like both halves are combining in some way, rather than playing an Oracle who had an anger management problem at some point in her past or something.

Flavor is decent, I'll give it that.
But it tries to boost your casting in ways that are "meh" or just don't cut it.
And it barely does anything to help your Barbarian/Rage side.


I'll give you the qualification point, but that's easy enough to ask the DM for since they have to spend feats to get more revelations or rage powers anyway.

Which is still a hit against the class. Asking the DM to fix a class shouldn't be needed.


MoC is for people that aren't cheesing away the fatigue penalty. "Rage cycling" effectively gets you an ability that requires Barbarian 17 at a much lower level. Many DMs look askance at the practice. But it's RAW so I'll leave it there.

Rage Cycling really only comes into play with the Spirit Guide ability. Without Cycling it becomes a 1/encounter trick, that has a VERY minor impact until level 9 anyway.

Even without Rage Cycling, the abilities that need/bypass Moment of Clarity just aren't that great. The spells you can cast _while_ Raging are greatly limited.
The bonuses you get when using Moment of Clarity are weak. Using Moment of Clarity to add your NON-Raging CON to Save DC's? Getting your Barbarian level added to your Caster level is less useful than you'd think, on a Barb heavy build, your Caster level/spells are already way behind the curve, and on an Oracle heavy build the bonus is tiny and doesn't make up for the caster levels lost from the class itself.


Why would your Con not be 16? Especially while raging?

MADness is a good reason, you want STR/CON/CHA, and probably some DEX (unless going with Nature/Lore).

And only 2 Prophet abilities make use of CON.
Bonus to Concentration checks, which I'll grant works even when NOT Raging. But the spells you can cast while Raging are, as stated, greatly limited.
The Bonus to Save DC's, which can't ever benefit from your Raging CON bonus.


The class should have had either Full Bab, or Full Casting (or both...). And it should have given you _some_ extra Rage Powers or Revelations.
As-is, it's a mess that isn't worth your time.

[ericgrau]

Odd. An experienced friend of mine who has made some good chars said he played a rage prophet in PFS and stomped face. I don't remember the details though, but something about killing everything. OTOH, PFS isn't always that hard.

I would guess you'd play it like any self-buffing melee and let all the buffs add up with the rage, guidance and so on. Someone else would have to figure out the specific details though, add up all the bonuses, and see if it really works.

[Psyren]

Rage Prophet 10 is worse than 7 levels of Oracle and 3 of Barbarian.


Again, I know that. Didn't I just say Main Oracle + Barbarian dip will beat this? You're not listening at all.

But Oracle 7/Barbarian 3 isn't an Oracle-Barbarian - it's an Oracle with some dead levels. Which is really the point when you get down to it. And if you compare it to a build that tries to keep Oracle and Barb even. the Prophet wins there.

[Beowulf DW]

Well, Psyren and Grarrrg, instead of going back and forth like this why don't we see how you would build a Barboracle and/or Rage Prophet, and how you would use the respective builds? The point of this thread was to build a character to fit a concept, and still be able to function in a moderately optimized party, not spark a debate about the merits of a prestige class. Meanwhile, I think I'll look up possible builds for a Cleric/Barbarian and see how that stacks up. I need to see if the
Destruction domain has any synergy with Rage.

[Psyren]

How it gets built depends on you, not us. Does Barb 2-3/Oracle X feel "Barboracle" enough for you? If so, then absolutely go with that because it's much more powerful than Rage Prophet. But if you're leaning more towards an even mix like Barb 10/Oracle 10, then going Barb 2/Oracle 4/Rage Prophet would be stronger since you top out at 7ths instead of 5ths.

And the other important question is whether your DM allows rage-cycling or not.

[Beowulf DW]

I'll have to get back to you on the Rage Cycling thing, but generally speaking as long as we aren't nullifying encounters with a single ability, we're good.

As for what I'm trying to get out of this, I'm trying for a build that mostly involves hitting things with the fury of the spirits in combat, while using spells for the out of combat role of councilor/adviser/shaman. I had thought I could make it work with Rage Prophet, but now I'm wondering if it was just the tempting glow of a prestige class that drew me in, and now I'm back to being undecided at square one.

[Psyren]

Then I would suggest you go along with grarrg's first suggestion of either dumping Barb entirely, or sticking with it just long enough to get pounce before dumping it entirely. Combining the two beyond that, if that's not your thematic goal, won't work mechanically either.

[grarrrg]

Again, I know that. Didn't I just say Main Oracle + Barbarian dip will beat this? You're not listening at all.

:smallsigh:
I am listening, see the part where I conceded that full caster beats not-full-caster?

"Agreed. Casting > Smashing.
But just because Rage Prophet > Barbarian does not mean Rage Prophet > Barb/Oracle."


But Oracle 7/Barbarian 3 isn't an Oracle-Barbarian - it's an Oracle with some dead levels. Which is really the point when you get down to it.

Again :smallsigh:
That's not "a build", that's me saying that whatever else you have going on for Barb/Oracle, you're better off with 7 MORE of Oracle and 3 MORE of Barbarian, than you would be if you went Rage Prophet for those specific 10 levels.


And if you compare it to a build that tries to keep Oracle and Barb even. the Prophet wins there.
How so?
Barbarian 12/Oracle 8 vs. Barb 8/Oracle 2/Rage Prophet 10
I've listed my points above, what are yours?

[Psyren]

That's not "a build", that's me saying that whatever else you have going on for Barb/Oracle, you're better off with 7 MORE of Oracle and 3 MORE of Barbarian, than you would be if you went Rage Prophet for those specific 10 levels.

I understand you now, but that still depends on factors like whether your DM allows rage-cycling.



Barbarian 12/Oracle 8 vs. Barb 8/Oracle 2/Rage Prophet 10

Er... why on earth would you go with 8 levels of Barb in a Rage Prophet build?

[avr]

One more idea. An Inquisitor with the Anger inquisition should combine usefully with Barbarian; judgements should still work in a rage. You'd start with Barbarian 2 / Inquisitor 6 and then decide which of the two to continue with.

Still, providing sage council and being a wise man out of combat is exactly what the one level and one feat dip in Oracle that I described above does. You don't need to invest a lot of resources to do this!

[grarrrg]

I understand you now, but that still depends on factors like whether your DM allows rage-cycling.

No. It doesn't.


Er... why on earth would you go with 8 levels of Barb in a Rage Prophet build?

Because it's an example.
Take Barb 8/Oracle 12 vs. Barb 4/Oracle 6/Prophet 10
Take Barb 6/Oracle 14 vs. Barb 2/Oracle 8/Prophet 10
As long as they have similar casting, the Barb/Oracle is better.
(because if they don't have similar casting, then whichever side has more casting is more likely better.)



I'm done arguing now.
Unless you have something actually worthwhile in defense of it.


As for a Barb/Oracle, unless your DM allows some substantial revisions, I would skip Rage Prophet.
Choose your Curse wisely, as it will likely take some time to reach the level 10 bonus, and you may never see the level 15 bonus.

[Beowulf DW]

Then I would suggest you go along with grarrg's first suggestion of either dumping Barb entirely, or sticking with it just long enough to get pounce before dumping it entirely. Combining the two beyond that, if that's not your thematic goal, won't work mechanically either.

Thank you.


One more idea. An Inquisitor with the Anger inquisition should combine usefully with Barbarian; judgements should still work in a rage. You'd start with Barbarian 2 / Inquisitor 6 and then decide which of the two to continue with.

Still, providing sage council and being a wise man out of combat is exactly what the one level and one feat dip in Oracle that I described above does. You don't need to invest a lot of resources to do this!

Interesting. Thanks a bunch, avr. I'll have to try it some time.



As for a Barb/Oracle, unless your DM allows some substantial revisions, I would skip Rage Prophet.
Choose your Curse wisely, as it will likely take some time to reach the level 10 bonus, and you may never see the level 15 bonus.

I see. Well, I guess it was worth shot.

At any rate, unless the Inquisitor/Barbarian idea from avr works out, I might actually be better off waiting for that Advanced Class Guide. The Bloodrager is arcane instead of divine, but I guess it could fill the role of "mystic barbarian warrior of the wilderness" better than most multiclass builds.

Thanks again, and sorry about starting an argument between Psyren and Grarrrg. For what it's worth, I think you're both pretty awesome.

[grarrrg]

...Grarrrg. For what it's worth, I think you're ... pretty awesome.

LIES!

And I'll think on the Inquisitor/Barb thing...and such...

[Psyren]

Because it's an example.
Take Barb 8/Oracle 12 vs. Barb 4/Oracle 6/Prophet 10
Take Barb 6/Oracle 14 vs. Barb 2/Oracle 8/Prophet 10
As long as they have similar casting, the Barb/Oracle is better.
(because if they don't have similar casting, then whichever side has more casting is more likely better.)

Not only does the Prophet have more casting in both of those builds, it has more leading up to that point as well. Unless you're starting pure Oracle and only switching to Barb once you hit 12/14, to which I again ask why would you bother with that?



Thanks again, and sorry about starting an argument between Psyren and Grarrrg. For what it's worth, I think you're both pretty awesome.

No worries.

[grarrrg]

Not only does the Prophet have more casting in both of those builds, it has more leading up to that point as well. Unless you're starting pure Oracle and only switching to Barb once you hit 12/14, to which I again ask why would you bother with that?

Unless you have something actually worthwhile in defense of it.

[Psyren]

Unless you have something actually worthwhile in defense of it.

Are you stuck in a loop or something? :smalltongue:

You said "As long as they have similar casting, the Barb/Oracle is better" - but I was responding that they don't, the RP builds have more casting.