Khan (Star Trek) vs Space Marine (40k) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Brother Oni

2013-09-18, 06:31 AM

Whilst I lack your knowledge regarding Space Marines I would have said Khan would have beaten the Space Marine easily on the grounds that the Space Marine wouldn't be expecting any real opposition and that if you were going to have them fight each other it would have to be based on both their strengths and the Marine wouldn't stand a chance.

While Space Marines are prone to arrogance, they are by nature, paranoid and suspicious - as remarked by a Farseer, "you can never surprise a Space Marine, only validate their suspicions".

An Astartes sees what appears to be a mere normal human in front of them, they're unlikely to take him at face value.

A Space Marine is on average, 7'6" tall and weighs approximately 780lbs. In addition to the physical requirements to move that bulk around, they have reinforced bones, extra muscle plus an implanted membrane in the torso that can resist small arms fire.
I seriously doubt that Khan would be able to do any damage to the Marine unarmed and even his advantage of regeneration is going to be negated once the Astartes figures out he needs to use his acid spit to put Khan down.

If you're thinking that a Space Marine is somewhat ridiculous, then welcome to the universe of 40K. :smalltongue:

GolemsVoice

2013-09-18, 06:32 AM

On top of that, Space Marines are also said to be incredibly intelligent. You just don't see that very often.

Brother Oni

2013-09-18, 06:36 AM

On top of that, Space Marines are also said to be incredibly intelligent. You just don't see that very often.

Given that only exceptional individuals get picked to become a Space Marine, it may be a case that only clever (or at least non-stupid) people get to be Space Marines rather than the process makes them clever.

hamishspence

2013-09-18, 06:40 AM

This, I think, was the quote on Marine mental powers:

Indoctrination - Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described above. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree.

RCgothic

2013-09-18, 06:42 AM

The marine also has incredible powers of regeneration, so Khan doesn't even come out on top in that regard.

Coidzor

2013-09-18, 10:29 PM

-Flat unending desert
-Fight to the death
-Gear is Hawaiian T-Shirt, Shorts, Small Flash Light (Batteries included)
+shoes and socks
-Aka imperial guard "equipment" (note that this is a joke, I don't mean a las gun I really mean a flash light)
-Start 20 feet apart
-Both know the objective and want to kill the other (khan just wants to escape (has to kill the space marine first), the space marine wants to kill a heretic)
-Space marine is a standard ultramarine

Who would win and by how much?

Bonus Round: Leman Russ vs Khan. How much of a massacre are we talking? What would he do in the fight (any one liners)? Anyone who you think in the imperium would make it less of a fair fight than Russ without psyker powers?

I was watching star trek into darkness.

Khan Noonien Singh is still mortal despite being superior to baseline humanity in every way. The Space Marine has plastic explosives for excrement, acid for blood, titanium for bones, and can actively use projectile vomiting of a highly caustic nature as a weapon.

Khan's physical prowess is incidental to what actually makes him noteworthy, his intellect, his cunning, his charisma, and his leadership skills. The Space Marine's physical prowess is essentially his raison d'etre.

Don Julio Anejo

2013-09-19, 04:47 AM

Unless the contest is something like "do science" or "become a successful politician in a democracy", a space marine likely wins. Even if you make the contest "command an army," as a centuries-old soldier would be easily able to pull up a similar scenario to the one before him and go from that.

Sorry, but there's no way Khan would win. I'd probably bet against a Spartan too, and I'm a massive Halo fanboy.

Brother Oni

2013-09-19, 05:27 AM

The marine also has incredible powers of regeneration, so Khan doesn't even come out on top in that regard.

I'm know Marines heal faster and can take more punishment, but I'm not aware of any significant regeneration ability similar to what Khan possesses.

Sorry, but there's no way Khan would win. I'd probably bet against a Spartan too, and I'm a massive Halo fanboy.

This has been proposed before and with the conditions as stated, it's just about in the marine's favour.
With standard equipment, I think people decided in favour of the Spartan.

If it came down to an endurance match (the marine and spartan were dropped somewhere on a planet and had to hunt the other down), the marine would win due to his non-combat related implants giving him the edge (no/little sleep requirement and ability to eat anything is pretty important).

IrnBruAddict

2013-09-19, 10:56 AM

This isn't even a contest. Marine punches Khan's head off his shoulders. Or throws the torch through his chest. Or just spits acid at him.

Selrahc

2013-09-19, 11:14 AM

The space marine is to Khan as Khan is to a normal human.

I think that is overstating the case. Khan has physically enhanced strength. TOS Khan was able to crumple up a gun in his hand and bend steel bars, which is at least in the same ballpark as a space marine. He was also physically enhanced enough to just ignore Kirk whacking him in the face(although not tough enough to be repeatedly hit with a metal bar, which I would say a Space Marine probably would be)

shadow_archmagi

2013-09-19, 11:24 AM

Kahn is a boss, but he's not "Beat an enemy with the same quality of augmentation, but twice as much of it" boss. Kahn is what, twice the physical strength of a human? SM is definitely more than double.

Now, in a shooting match, he might stand a chance- He's really fast and has really good aim. That'd be a close enough fight that I wouldn't bet. But this is a sticks and stones match, so the space marine spits acid in kahn's eyes, and then beats up a blinded Kahn using superior strength, reach.

Kahn vs Commissar Yarrick would be a much closer fight.

gooddragon1

2013-09-19, 11:40 AM

This has been proposed before...

Curiously enough by the same OP. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173907)

hamishspence

2013-09-19, 12:03 PM

Kahn is a boss, but he's not "Beat an enemy with the same quality of augmentation, but twice as much of it" boss. Kahn is what, twice the physical strength of a human? SM is definitely more than double.

To give a rough idea- a starting Deathwatch marine, not in armour, could have a "max lift off the ground capacity" of between 224 kg and 4500kg- and can carry half of that without penalty.

An average marine is going to be able to carry 675kg without penalty and lift 1350 kg.

For comparison, normally, the weakest starting humans (Dark Heresy) can lift 36kg and carry 18 kg: and the strongest lift 112 kg and carry 56kg.

DaedalusMkV

2013-09-19, 03:41 PM

Kahn vs Commissar Yarrick would be a much closer fight.

I'm not sure that there's anything Khan could physically do to Yarrik to make him give up. Yarrik's skull is made of Adamantine, so head attacks won't work, and this is a guy who got his arm ripped right out at the socket and calmly used the opportunity to decapitate the guy who did it, then commanded the rest of an hours-long battle before allowing himself the luxury of passing out from trauma and blood loss. A guy who the Black Templars have so much respect for that they basically consider him an honorary member of their Chapter. A guy who the biggest, meanest, greenest Ork in the entire universe considers a completely worthy foe, and basically an honorary Ork, which surprised basically everyone (including the other Orks), because Orks don't even do that. Unless we give Khan ranged weaponry capable of killing Yarrik outright or deprive Yarrik of his cybernetics, the only possible way the battle can end is with Khan having a laser drilled through his head from Yarrik's Bale Eye or chopped in half by his Power Claw. Even if Yarrik has to break every single bone in his body to do it. If anything, I'd say that Yarrik does even better against Khan than the Marine by virtue of his body being about 50% cybernetic weapon at this point.

GloatingSwine

2013-09-19, 04:05 PM

shadow_archmagi

2013-09-20, 07:07 AM

I'm not sure that there's anything Khan could physically do to Yarrik to make him give up. Yarrik's skull is made of Adamantine, so head attacks won't work, and this is a guy who got his arm ripped right out at the socket and calmly used the opportunity to decapitate the guy who did it, then commanded the rest of an hours-long battle before allowing himself the luxury of passing out from trauma and blood loss. A guy who the Black Templars have so much respect for that they basically consider him an honorary member of their Chapter. A guy who the biggest, meanest, greenest Ork in the entire universe considers a completely worthy foe, and basically an honorary Ork, which surprised basically everyone (including the other Orks), because Orks don't even do that. Unless we give Khan ranged weaponry capable of killing Yarrik outright or deprive Yarrik of his cybernetics, the only possible way the battle can end is with Khan having a laser drilled through his head from Yarrik's Bale Eye or chopped in half by his Power Claw. Even if Yarrik has to break every single bone in his body to do it. If anything, I'd say that Yarrik does even better against Khan than the Marine by virtue of his body being about 50% cybernetic weapon at this point.

Well, keep in mind that it's a Powa Klaw, not a power claw. Weapons roughly the size of your torso will be extremely hard to bring to bear against a significantly faster, more agile opponent. The Bale Eye is trickier, but Kahn can probably survive a few laspistol rounds.

Fan

2013-09-20, 10:07 AM

To give a rough idea- a starting Deathwatch marine, not in armour, could have a "max lift off the ground capacity" of between 224 kg and 4500kg- and can carry half of that without penalty.

An average marine is going to be able to carry 675kg without penalty and lift 1350 kg.

For comparison, normally, the weakest starting humans (Dark Heresy) can lift 36kg and carry 18 kg: and the strongest lift 112 kg and carry 56kg.

Then you have Lemann Russ who is the second scenario who is to a normal space marine what an unarmed babe is to a fighter jet.

Primarchs are all in the double digit machs with at least mountain busting capability individually. Some of them drowned dragons in lava because they couldn't beat it to death with their bare hands and got a set of necrodermis hands from the melting dragon as they held it's head in the magma.

Lost Demiurge

2013-09-20, 01:00 PM

Yeah, sorry, this is a mismatch. 20 feet apart pretty much gives it to the space marine.

Now if they have some significant distance, objects, and terrain to work with, Khan's got a chance of pulling it off. Mind you it's not a high chance. He may underestimate the amount of punishment the marine can take, and be unable to escape when his first few traps and gambits fail.

EDIT: Against Leman Russ himself, Khan is boned. No chance, even if he starts with significant advantages.

HandofShadows

2013-09-20, 02:08 PM

hamishspence

2013-09-20, 02:21 PM

Khan might be close to the strength of the weakest marines though- the ones who can just about lift 224 kg.

The Glyphstone

2013-09-20, 02:55 PM

Maybe a Scout Marine? They haven't received the full set of implants and augments yet at that point in their training.

hamishspence

2013-09-20, 02:59 PM

That lift capacity is the minimum a full-fledged Marine can have when joining the Deathwatch- it requires the player to have rolled snake-eyes for both Str and Toughness.

DaedalusMkV

2013-09-20, 03:21 PM

Well, keep in mind that it's a Powa Klaw, not a power claw. Weapons roughly the size of your torso will be extremely hard to bring to bear against a significantly faster, more agile opponent. The Bale Eye is trickier, but Kahn can probably survive a few laspistol rounds.

Yarrik's Power Claw might be cumbersome, but he's got decades of combat experience wielding it and it does supply him with a hell of a reach advantage. More than that, any hit whatsoever with it will take Khan right out of the fight. While Khan can probably dodge the majority of Yarrik's swings, he's going to have to spend a very long time beating on Yarrik before the Hero of Hades Hive goes down, and Yarrik only needs one hit to win. Also, the Bale Eye does hit about as hard as a Hellpistol, which gives it moderately more stopping power than a laspistol, and even nonlethal hits are going to slow Khan down. Yarrik should have the stamina advantage and he's got a ton of combat experience fighting superhuman enemies. I don't see Khan wearing him down before Yarrik lands the hits he needs to finish Khan off. Hell, Khan could poke Yarrik's organic eye right out and Yarrik would just use it as an opportunity to calmly shoot Khan in the face with his laser eye, then go home and demand the Techpriests install a flamethrower in the socket so that he doesn't have to worry about speedy people dodging his attacks any more.

shadow_archmagi

2013-09-20, 03:53 PM

Yarrik's Power Claw might be cumbersome, but he's got decades of combat experience wielding it and it does supply him with a hell of a reach advantage.

Yarrik should have the stamina advantage and he's got a ton of combat experience fighting superhuman enemies.

I'd disagree on the stamina thing. Yarrick is only human- He'll tire before a superhuman.

Keep in mind also that he's had decades of experience fighting exclusively orks, unless I'm missing one of his stories. Orks are huge and slow, so very little of Yarrick's training will prepare him for a human that's trained to fight humans.

hamishspence

2013-09-20, 03:56 PM

Yarrick was old when he fought in the 2nd Battle of Armageddon and ancient when he fought in the 3rd (the 1st was several centuries before).

But before the 2nd, and between the 2nd and 3rd - there's plenty of opportunity for him to have commanded Imperials in battles against non-Ork opponents.

Tavar

2013-09-20, 03:59 PM

Are orks really considered slow?

Lamech

2013-09-20, 04:05 PM

EccentricCircle

2013-09-20, 04:05 PM

I think Khan's only real hope is if he can somehow convince his opponant to join him, rather than fight. Thats probably a long shot against someone who is as fanatically dedicated to the emperor as a space marine, but Khan does have a very good track record of subverting others to his will.

Coidzor

2013-09-20, 11:22 PM

Khan's cool and all, but all his best tricks aren't his super strength. Now something like species 8472, or one of the galactic barrier enhanced humans might pull it off, but Khan? No. Give him a gun and maybe, give him science to do and sure! But he'll lose a boxing match.

Indeed. Khan as a pugilist is probably the least interesting use you could put him to.

I'd disagree on the stamina thing. Yarrick is only human- He'll tire before a superhuman.

In an endurance march or marathon, sure. In a fight like this? Shouldn't last long enough for that to matter, especially going in armed against an unarmed man.

chiasaur11

2013-09-21, 04:59 AM

Really, Space Marines are so heavily modified nothing close to being human has a real chance to beat them. About the only thing (remotely human) that would have a good chance to beat them consistantly would be a Shlockverse Super Soldier. :smallbiggrin:

I'd put good money on Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson, and he's a Dwarf. That's pretty close to human in most people's books. (And, by extension, I'd give a good shot to Cohen and Vimes. Definitely would bet on Ridcully or [Emperor help the Space Marine] Vetinari.)

If we're sticking to non-fantasy homo sapiens sapiens, Felix from Armor, basically a perfect killing machine. He'd also have a good shot. Yeah, no gene mods, and he'd be at a major disadvantage if this is shorts and a t-shirt instead of combat armor, but the man is a born survivor, even in this kind of mess. Samus Aran's got less survival instinct, but her combat abilities are up to the task, so that's another.

(And that's ignoring Marvel, DC, and X-Com, who could all field "more or less" humans who'd reduce Space Marines to a fine paste. Some of them are still in elementary school. Space Marines are impressive, but let's not overrate.)

Forum Explorer

2013-09-21, 05:32 AM

I'd put good money on Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson, and he's a Dwarf. That's pretty close to human in most people's books. (And, by extension, I'd give a good shot to Cohen and Vimes. Definitely would bet on Ridcully or [Emperor help the Space Marine] Vetinari.)

If we're sticking to non-fantasy homo sapiens sapiens, Felix from Armor, basically a perfect killing machine. He'd also have a good shot. Yeah, no gene mods, and he'd be at a major disadvantage if this is shorts and a t-shirt instead of combat armor, but the man is a born survivor, even in this kind of mess. Samus Aran's got less survival instinct, but her combat abilities are up to the task, so that's another.

(And that's ignoring Marvel, DC, and X-Com, who could all field "more or less" humans who'd reduce Space Marines to a fine paste. Some of them are still in elementary school. Space Marines are impressive, but let's not overrate.)

I wouldn't. Carrot is strong and skilled but no where near the level of a space marine. Vimes as well. Strong and even has some tricks up his sleeve but I wouldn't put money on him breaking the Space Marine's skin. Ventrini would be pretty dead as well.

Cohen might do better, but I really don't know his capabilities as the only book I really remember him being in was the light fantastic or something early like that. Ridcully could win because there is no defense against his magic. Though is he just throws a fireball instead of a more optimal move like teleporting the Space Marine or transforming it into something harmless, then the Space Marine could win as well.

I don't know anything about Felix

Samus is good and might be able to win with her equipment. Actually I'd give her better then even odds that she'd win a fight against the average marine. Without her equipment she would certainly lose.

None of the Superheroes in Marvel or DC are very 'human'. Particularly Batman.

X-Com? As in the video game? Yeah they would completely lose even at the highest rank troops you've got.

Soras Teva Gee

2013-09-21, 08:22 AM

There's plenty of "normal" humans that can easily beat a generic space marine.

Its just a matter of equipment. Naked in the the desert still gives the Marine a lot of "equipment" in the form of enhancements. Other then unrealistically awesome martial artists a normal human should loose. Of course its really a one trick pony that says a lot about the limitations of the Astartes that naked matches on open ground are really their ideal.

For "could" once you add weapons back even modern soldiers can with the right equipment. Yes even with Astarte equipment. Though anything quickdraw dueling style still (probably) favors the marine for the single reason of who shoots first will tend to win. Which is why nobody really takes chances like that

Infantry period is pseudo-irrelevant these days because people will just ambush/snipe from cover, use vehicles, or call in artillery instead of even bothering with anything like a fair fight. The pseudo comes from environments like forests and cities with lots of cover that effectively restrict the ability to use the second two options so lots of cat and mouse games instead. Though far more fiction then 40k fails to realize this.

Brother Oni

2013-09-21, 08:34 AM

Maybe a Scout Marine? They haven't received the full set of implants and augments yet at that point in their training.

Assuming the indoctrination process is standardised (ie Ultramarine), most scouts are likely to have all the relevant implants under normal deployment conditions: the Black Carapace is the last implant and is installed somewhere between 16-18 years of age, which is about when you'd expect scouts to be eligible for combat deployments if manpower isn't critically short.

I really don't see initiates being deployed at 16, which is when they have all the implants except for the Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Progenoids and Black Carapace.

On the somewhat out of date scale, I know the protagonists of Space Marine had their Black Carapace when they went on their first mission.

The scout's lack of practical combat experience would even up the odds though. While he's probably got a fair bit from his pre-marine days, that wasn't with a marine's body.

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-21, 09:06 AM

INone of the Superheroes in Marvel or DC are very 'human'. Particularly Batman.

Neither is a Space Marine. In fact I'd say most superhoers probably are more "human" than Space Marine, both physically and mentally.

This is, frankly, a very poorly set up engagement (and heavily stacked in favour of the marine, not least because who DOES have "equipment" in the form of his enhancements).

Put Khan (or any other human/near-human) in a similar situation - even Batman - and they'd probably struggle. (Bats would probably win, but even he'd be pushed without any of his gear and no planning time or terrain or even distance.)

You might as well have replaced the Space Marine with a D&D troll or a stone golem or some monster out of Final Fantasy or something... Or heck, even a Zergling. It might be perfectly killable in normal cases, but in circumstances where you can't do anything other than get hit by it (no distance or terrain) where it's got a physical advantage, you're screwed, unless you have equal or better natural superpowers.

Place a Space Marine captain or something (not a Named Hero, but maybe even then) naked twenty feet from a Balor (or a Bloodthirster) or a D&D Spectre (or lowly Shadow) and you'd get pretty much the same result in reverse.

I mean, the set-up for this "verses" is only about two steps from being nearly "Professor Xavier naked is on a totally flat empty plain, he's not got his wheel chairs (but his back is still broken) and he hasn't got his telepathic powers, also both of his arms are broken and he's five feet for the enemy, which is all of every faction in 40K. At once."

(Ironically, Prof X with his superpowers 20' from a nearly-naked Space Marine would be a curbstomp in the other direction.)

Forum Explorer

2013-09-21, 01:46 PM

Neither is a Space Marine. In fact I'd say most superhoers probably are more "human" than Space Marine, both physically and mentally.

This is, frankly, a very poorly set up engagement (and heavily stacked in favour of the marine, not least because who DOES have "equipment" in the form of his enhancements).

Put Khan (or any other human/near-human) in a similar situation - even Batman - and they'd probably struggle. (Bats would probably win, but even he'd be pushed without any of his gear and no planning time or terrain or even distance.)

You might as well have replaced the Space Marine with a D&D troll or a stone golem or some monster out of Final Fantasy or something... Or heck, even a Zergling. It might be perfectly killable in normal cases, but in circumstances where you can't do anything other than get hit by it (no distance or terrain) where it's got a physical advantage, you're screwed, unless you have equal or better natural superpowers.

Place a Space Marine captain or something (not a Named Hero, but maybe even then) naked twenty feet from a Balor (or a Bloodthirster) or a D&D Spectre (or lowly Shadow) and you'd get pretty much the same result in reverse.

I mean, the set-up for this "verses" is only about two steps from being nearly "Professor Xavier naked is on a totally flat empty plain, he's not got his wheel chairs (but his back is still broken) and he hasn't got his telepathic powers, also both of his arms are broken and he's five feet for the enemy, which is all of every faction in 40K. At once."

(Ironically, Prof X with his superpowers 20' from a nearly-naked Space Marine would be a curbstomp in the other direction.)

The example was saying that there are humans that can beat a Space Marine. I'm not saying that Space Marines are human, just that you can't say that the superheroes from Marvel or DC are really that human either.

And sure I agree, this is a horrible set up for Khan who is primarily a thinker anyways.

The Glyphstone

2013-09-21, 02:20 PM

Now, something like Khan and a Space Marine on, say, a modern-day Earth where neither 40K nor Star Trek ever existed would be interesting. Marine retains his punishing physical-demigod status, but becomes a gigantic fish out of water, while Khan is in his perfect element as a superhuman manipulator among normals.

Somewhere

2013-09-21, 02:34 PM

Re: Humans who could possibly win
The guy in my sig (Saitama) could, if he counts as human.

It's a gag/parody series of superheroes, so feats (particularly, his) can get silly. Like say, Saitama's punched through an asteroid just about to hit the surface (already broke into the atmosphere). The fragments after the punch still wrecked the city, mind you, but he jumped and punched that asteroid with minimal effort.

Anyway, the dude's the titular One-Punch Man and is intentionally overpowered in speed/strength/durability/what have you, as long as it's an attribute of a baseline human (no flight or psychic powers, for example).
The interesting thing is something that the original webcomic presented, but Murata's redraw of it hasn't gotten to yet, so I'll put it in spoilers.
Saitama, in the OPM setting, is a human. He is not a natural non-human like the Seafolk or an alien from the other side of the galaxy. He was not born with any special powers, like the psychics. He did not get any cybernetic enhancements. No transformation/rebirth into monster form. The latent potential he was born with was that of just any random, regular dude. He had no special qualities about him at all.

Now, in the OPM setting, every living thing has a limiter, capping how powerful one can be. Imposed on them by a higher being because an individual growing too strong for itself will lose control. Just about everything shown so far has obeyed that limiter, no matter how impressive their abilities are.
The lone exception being Saitama, who broke his limiter solely through his effort.

....and the joke here is that he broke his limiter after 3 years of a training regimen that was revealed way earlier to be 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10 km running every single day with no air conditioning, and 3 meals a day. A banana for breakfast is fine. This had the price of rendering him bald.

HandofShadows

2013-09-21, 02:54 PM

That gag/parody character are further away from being human than even the Space Marine. And makes a heck of a lot more sense with regards to things like physics.

Lamech

2013-09-21, 02:58 PM

There are plenty of humans that would turn a space marine into a bloody paste. From the worm-verse you have... any of the triumvirate, Grey Boy, Defiant (final form), Crawler, Siberian, G.U., a lot of flying artillery types and so forth. Clockblocker might even get a kill in.

X-men has a bunch as well. Prof X, the Phoenix, Cyclops probably.

A lot of fantasy wizards would also shred a Space Marine. For example, anyone with the right ward and attack spell from Ars Magica. Blackstaff from Dresden.

chiasaur11

2013-09-21, 03:50 PM

I wouldn't. Carrot is strong and skilled but no where near the level of a space marine. Vimes as well. Strong and even has some tricks up his sleeve but I wouldn't put money on him breaking the Space Marine's skin. Ventrini would be pretty dead as well.

Cohen might do better, but I really don't know his capabilities as the only book I really remember him being in was the light fantastic or something early like that. Ridcully could win because there is no defense against his magic. Though is he just throws a fireball instead of a more optimal move like teleporting the Space Marine or transforming it into something harmless, then the Space Marine could win as well.

I don't know anything about Felix

Samus is good and might be able to win with her equipment. Actually I'd give her better then even odds that she'd win a fight against the average marine. Without her equipment she would certainly lose.

None of the Superheroes in Marvel or DC are very 'human'. Particularly Batman.

X-Com? As in the video game? Yeah they would completely lose even at the highest rank troops you've got.

Carrot's got plot armor. As in, it's an explicitly written part of the books. On top of the really thick plot armor, he's got charisma that pretty much breaks any unnamed mook.

The Space Marine may be an ultra-zealous pile of muscle, but that's all fuel for Narrative Causality to show off Carrot's Rightful King bonuses. (Again, explicitly part of his ability set, not just the books he's in) Named one would do better, but that's a different question.

Vimes is tougher to kill than Carrot. That says enough.

And Cohen? Cohen's the worst of the set. He's a Hero with a capital H, of the old school. He runs on The Rules, which say that as long as the odds are against him, he's at least slightly better than the enemy, and he plays all the old heroic beats, he's going to win. He rolls 7s, which does not sound that impressive until you remember he does that with a six sided die.

Samus won't need her power armor. Would help, but she's already augmented with Chozo DNA that puts her roughly in Space Marine territory, and she's trained on deathworlds since she was 3. She's also one-in-a-trillion good even without the suit.

Marvel and DC are generally still much more human than space marines. They only go outside the limits when pushed.

X-Com? X-Com fields low level alpha telepaths. Those guys would have a field day with Space Marines. Species of hive minded aliens that only live due to their massive psychic powers? Yeah, it takes a top X-Com agent about a second to reduce its will to putty, then use its eyes to see all its buddies, and brainjack them into suicide. I'd put Space Marines roughly on a level with Muton Elites. MAYBE a Muton berserker, who are tough to mind control since their higher reasoning is entirely replaced with bloodlust.

X-Com can take those guys easy. And don't even mention the Volunteer. He'd just open a warp storm on the poor Marine.

As for Felix? Saved the best for last. He's the Bergholt Stuttley Johnson of suicide. Man joined the army because he ruined his life and wanted to die. Should have been a safe bet. Nobody survived ten combat drops, and precious few survived one. Odds were even worse for scouts like him, with worse armor and more dangerous jobs. He even started out on the worst mission ever, one where bad data resulted in a third of the army dropping right in the middle of enemy battle lines. Felix started his first military drop in the middle of a parade of marching bugs, each one strong enough to breach his armor and kill him instantly. (Banshee's a death world's death world. One second of armor breach, it's all over.) Everyone else in that position bit it. Everyone else on that whole drop died.

Felix... persisted. You know that talk about how in a disaster people discover a will to survive they didn't know existed? Felix's will to survive would grab the Doom Marine's will to survive and beat it to death with its own metaphorical femur. He's... impressive.

Forum Explorer

2013-09-21, 04:26 PM

Carrot's got plot armor. As in, it's an explicitly written part of the books. On top of the really thick plot armor, he's got charisma that pretty much breaks any unnamed mook.

The Space Marine may be an ultra-zealous pile of muscle, but that's all fuel for Narrative Causality to show off Carrot's Rightful King bonuses. (Again, explicitly part of his ability set, not just the books he's in) Named one would do better, but that's a different question.

Vimes is tougher to kill than Carrot. That says enough.

And Cohen? Cohen's the worst of the set. He's a Hero with a capital H, of the old school. He runs on The Rules, which say that as long as the odds are against him, he's at least slightly better than the enemy, and he plays all the old heroic beats, he's going to win. He rolls 7s, which does not sound that impressive until you remember he does that with a six sided die.

Samus won't need her power armor. Would help, but she's already augmented with Chozo DNA that puts her roughly in Space Marine territory, and she's trained on deathworlds since she was 3. She's also one-in-a-trillion good even without the suit.

Marvel and DC are generally still much more human than space marines. They only go outside the limits when pushed.

X-Com? X-Com fields low level alpha telepaths. Those guys would have a field day with Space Marines. Species of hive minded aliens that only live due to their massive psychic powers? Yeah, it takes a top X-Com agent about a second to reduce its will to putty, then use its eyes to see all its buddies, and brainjack them into suicide. I'd put Space Marines roughly on a level with Muton Elites. MAYBE a Muton berserker, who are tough to mind control since their higher reasoning is entirely replaced with bloodlust.

X-Com can take those guys easy. And don't even mention the Volunteer. He'd just open a warp storm on the poor Marine.

As for Felix? Saved the best for last. He's the Bergholt Stuttley Johnson of suicide. Man joined the army because he ruined his life and wanted to die. Should have been a safe bet. Nobody survived ten combat drops, and precious few survived one. Odds were even worse for scouts like him, with worse armor and more dangerous jobs. He even started out on the worst mission ever, one where bad data resulted in a third of the army dropping right in the middle of enemy battle lines. Felix started his first military drop in the middle of a parade of marching bugs, each one strong enough to breach his armor and kill him instantly. (Banshee's a death world's death world. One second of armor breach, it's all over.) Everyone else in that position bit it. Everyone else on that whole drop died.

Felix... persisted. You know that talk about how in a disaster people discover a will to survive they didn't know existed? Felix's will to survive would grab the Doom Marine's will to survive and beat it to death with its own metaphorical femur. He's... impressive.

Plot Armor means he survives. And 40K runs on very different narrative rules then Discworld. By 40K narrative rules being the 'Righteous King' just means your death will be horrifying and/or pointless in order to maximize the GRIMDARK! of the universe.

Vimes runs on street smarts, skill, and sheer determination. He also very nearly dies so often that Death has taken to calling it a 'Near Vimes experience'. Also the sort of damage Vimes takes (that almost kills him) wouldn't even hurt a space marine.

Different Narrative Rules again. Discworld is a very different universe then 40K is. So whose rules get supremacy? Because going with Discworld basically means that it's narrative wins, not the characters themselves.

An alpha level psyker is 40K can control hundreds (perhaps thousands) of humans at the same time. It can't control the Space Marine at all. I don't think it even manages to effect him. The aliens massive psy powers are quite frankly pathetic in comparison. They what? Can control one human within sight? If the human isn't strongly willed? Or perhaps they can cause the human to take less damage then if they just shot him.

Felix again means nothing to me. I don't know that character, I don't know what work he is from. I can hardly argue that point.

Lamech

2013-09-21, 06:11 PM

GloatingSwine

2013-09-21, 06:28 PM

Stripping Carrot of his plot armour would be like saying the space marine dies horribly because his techno-magic no longer works. Yeah, Carrot has a power that makes him win. Them the breaks. Ooo, that reminds me.

Tell us, how did Carrot's "plot armour" work out the last time he faced a mildly superhuman opponent?

Oh right, he was defeated trivially and ended up with his arm broken.

It's almost as if this argument is complete nonsense....

Tiki Snakes

2013-09-21, 06:29 PM

The thing with Discworld narrative law/magic is, if the Space Marine is transported buck-naked to the Disc, then he doesn't just have to contend with that weird wibbly wobbly rule-set in terms of his opponents. He also becomes subject to it himself.

Without asking Sir Terry how exactly such a character would fare upon becoming subject to those rules, it's hard to say if he'd be experiencing a nerf or a boost. Both are possible.

Though the likely result is the Space Marine somehow learning to lighten up and fit in, I figure. No, it doesn't make sense. It's incredibly unlikely. A real one-in-a-million shot... :smallwink:

Forum Explorer

2013-09-21, 07:03 PM

Stripping Carrot of his plot armour would be like saying the space marine dies horribly because his techno-magic no longer works. Yeah, Carrot has a power that makes him win. Them the breaks. Ooo, that reminds me. Contessa from Worm could kill a Space Marine.

Plot Armor is Armor. Carrot might get a Deus Ex Mechania in order to survive. But that doesn't mean he will win.

The path to victory doesn't always mean fighting :smallwink:

Basically Contessa needs something more then just her power to win that fight. Something like an environment beyond a flat featureless plain, or some high quality equipment. But those are both pretty reasonable, so yeah I could see her winning.

The thing with Discworld narrative law/magic is, if the Space Marine is transported buck-naked to the Disc, then he doesn't just have to contend with that weird wibbly wobbly rule-set in terms of his opponents. He also becomes subject to it himself.

Without asking Sir Terry how exactly such a character would fare upon becoming subject to those rules, it's hard to say if he'd be experiencing a nerf or a boost. Both are possible.

Though the likely result is the Space Marine somehow learning to lighten up and fit in, I figure. No, it doesn't make sense. It's incredibly unlikely. A real one-in-a-million shot... :smallwink:

Depends on the Space Marine I'd think. I think a Space Wolf might get a boost, but I don't think an Ultramarine would.

Brother Oni

2013-09-21, 07:21 PM

Though the likely result is the Space Marine somehow learning to lighten up and fit in, I figure. No, it doesn't make sense. It's incredibly unlikely. A real one-in-a-million shot... :smallwink:

You mean the Discworld laws of causality would turn an Astartes into a Reasonable Marine? :smalltongue:

paddyfool

2013-09-21, 07:34 PM

There are plenty of humans that would turn a space marine into a bloody paste. From the worm-verse you have... any of the triumvirate, Grey Boy, Defiant (final form), Crawler, Siberian, G.U., a lot of flying artillery types and so forth. Clockblocker might even get a kill in.

X-men has a bunch as well. Prof X, the Phoenix, Cyclops probably.

Um... you haven't named any humans yet. Parahumans yes, humans no.

Lamech

2013-09-21, 08:01 PM

Those people are all a lot more human than Khan. And for the record they are all clearly human, with the whole interbreeding capability. A single mutation does not a different species make. Nor does a bit of brain surgery by a freaky cosmic horror.

Basically Contessa needs something more then just her power to win that fight. Something like an environment beyond a flat featureless plain, or some high quality equipment. But those are both pretty reasonable, so yeah I could see her winning.

She has a flashlight and sand. Plus she's (or someone with her power) have defeated people with a handful of words. And all those fancy implants the marine has? It would just suck if one got hit just the right way to cause a slight glitch that would make the marine explode. That would be just terrible.

Her power is she wins. I think she's gonna win this fight.

chiasaur11

2013-09-21, 08:28 PM

Tell us, how did Carrot's "plot armour" work out the last time he faced a mildly superhuman opponent?

Oh right, he was defeated trivially and ended up with his arm broken.

It's almost as if this argument is complete nonsense....

The trolls? The many many trolls he's fought?

He whipped them flat.

Or is this about Wolfgang? Because, well, he's a named character. Rules are very different when plot armor runs into a Major Character versus a nameless grunt, as I mentioned. Explicit part of the Discworld ruleset. Handy for Carrot, since this is against a very nameless grunt.

As for Marvel and DC, I'm amused that Batman is being called out for not counting as human, pretty much only because he could win. It seems for the purposes of debate, "Not human" and "Could beat a space marine" are synonymous, making "Nothing remotely human could beat a space marine" something of a tautology.

Which is good, because otherwise I'd have to bring up Karate Kid.

Tavar

2013-09-21, 08:31 PM

It's more that, while Batman is human within the rules of the DC universe, he is not really human within our understanding of a human's capabilities. From our understanding, he's blatantly superhuman.

Tiki Snakes

2013-09-21, 08:47 PM

You mean the Discworld laws of causality would turn an Astartes into a Reasonable Marine? :smalltongue:

Not right away.
But it would ensure he had some kind of character arc, and it wouldn't be very interesting if the marine stayed a remorseless murder-machine/terminator stand-in.

Admittedly, the other likely arc would involve the sillyness of Discworld ensuring that the Marine's superhuman, implacable badassery was slowly undermined, like his foe taking refuge in Lancre or something.

The two aren't necessarily incompatible fates for a marine in Discworld.

Forum Explorer

2013-09-21, 09:15 PM

The trolls? The many many trolls he's fought?

He whipped them flat.

Or is this about Wolfgang? Because, well, he's a named character. Rules are very different when plot armor runs into a Major Character versus a nameless grunt, as I mentioned. Explicit part of the Discworld ruleset. Handy for Carrot, since this is against a very nameless grunt.

As for Marvel and DC, I'm amused that Batman is being called out for not counting as human, pretty much only because he could win. It seems for the purposes of debate, "Not human" and "Could beat a space marine" are synonymous, making "Nothing remotely human could beat a space marine" something of a tautology.

Which is good, because otherwise I'd have to bring up Karate Kid.

I don't remember Carrot actually fighting any trolls. Talking them down yes. That's generally what Carrot does. That also doesn't really apply to vs battles. Narrative rules I'd argue would only apply in an actual story, and if there was a story then the Space Marine would be upgraded to named character status since he would be the other half of the wacky cross over

Batman survived complete disintegration. He's been disqualified from the human race for cheating. :smalltongue:

But there are certainly many human characters that could beat an unarmed Space Marine, even if they lacked equipment of their own. Off the top of my head:

The Full Metal Alchemist. Who can generate weapons from nothing,

nearly any mage in fantasy stories, as they generally don't need much if any of their equipment.

Kotomien and Kitsurgi from Fate/Stay Night. (depends on the path of course. Also I guess they both count as mages)

With equipment I'd extend that quite a bit further. Samus Aran for example.

Rakaydos

2013-09-21, 09:24 PM

Samus isnt Human these days. She was made part Chozo just to operate the suit, and the Metroid Vaccine just makes it worse.

paddyfool

2013-09-22, 01:53 AM

Those people are all a lot more human than Khan. And for the record they are all clearly human, with the whole interbreeding capability. A single mutation does not a different species make. Nor does a bit of brain surgery by a freaky cosmic horror.

In relation to superpowers, when we talk about someone merely human winning, the standard assumption is you're talking about a badass norm, not about someone with a bit of a cross-dimensional alien that's grafted itself onto them or other forms of special powers which are intrinsically not part of the human biological package, no matter how much you train it.

She has a flashlight and sand. Plus she's (or someone with her power) have defeated people with a handful of words. And all those fancy implants the marine has? It would just suck if one got hit just the right way to cause a slight glitch that would make the marine explode. That would be just terrible.

Her power is she wins. I think she's gonna win this fight.

Agreed. If your power is "you win", and it's always on, then, well, you win unless someone finds a way to shut down your power.

hamishspence

2013-09-22, 02:34 AM

I don't remember Carrot actually fighting any trolls. Talking them down yes. That's generally what Carrot does.

There was a throwaway line in one of the books, saying that Carrot "had a punch even trolls had learned to respect".

The Glyphstone

2013-09-22, 03:19 AM

So, I'm very baffled why everyone is throwing out big lists of 'things that can beat a Space Marine' like it's particularly hard to do, and especially like it was ever really relevant to the challenge or versus.

The actual terms of the fight was beating a Space Marine in, effectively, a bare-knuckles boxing match. Plenty of superhumans can do that. Very few 'normal' humans can. No one is arguing that Space Marines are unbeatable, no one was - so adding people like Harry Dresden kinda pointless...pretty sure Harry's not beating anyone in a fistfight without his magic/Mantle, even most normal mortals.

And briefly on the Marine vs. Discworld thing...it's the exact issue that was brought up in Culture vs. 40K. Carrot's Narrative Casuality abilities are only relevant on the Disc, and become a lethal liability in 40Kverse. So it's not about his plot armor or plot abilities so much as where the fight is taking place (and by extension, whose genre conventions apply) that inevitably guarantees his win or loss.

Hyena

2013-09-22, 03:58 AM

I don't remember Carrot actually fighting any trolls.
The first book, "Guards! Guards!" has him punching out Detritus. And the whole "Mended Drum" beforehand.

Coidzor

2013-09-22, 04:09 AM

Not right away.
But it would ensure he had some kind of character arc, and it wouldn't be very interesting if the marine stayed a remorseless murder-machine/terminator stand-in.

Admittedly, the other likely arc would involve the sillyness of Discworld ensuring that the Marine's superhuman, implacable badassery was slowly undermined, like his foe taking refuge in Lancre or something.

The two aren't necessarily incompatible fates for a marine in Discworld.

...It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a Greebo. XD

lord_khaine

2013-09-22, 04:58 AM

An alpha level psyker is 40K can control hundreds (perhaps thousands) of humans at the same time. It can't control the Space Marine at all. I don't think it even manages to effect him. The aliens massive psy powers are quite frankly pathetic in comparison. They what? Can control one human within sight? If the human isn't strongly willed? Or perhaps they can cause the human to take less damage then if they just shot him.

Not quite true, we have examples of alpha class psykers controlling Space Marines with ease, making them shoot themself.

Tell us, how did Carrot's "plot armour" work out the last time he faced a mildly superhuman opponent?

Oh right, he was defeated trivially and ended up with his arm broken.
Yes, so he lost that specific battle, and won the relevant war regarding the heart of his girlfriend.

Which is good, because otherwise I'd have to bring up Karate Kid

Ohh.. Nice pick, i guess you refer to DC's Karate Kid? because a person able to punch a Land Raider open would certainly ruin a Space Marines day :P
(and he is still a regular unagumented human :smallbiggrin: )

HandofShadows

2013-09-22, 08:56 AM

People seem to be forgeting that Space Marine's are much more than muscle. Average Marines are centuries old and have been in combat and heavy training the entire time. He knows martial arts that have not been invented yet. Everything Batman knows about THT combat? The Marine moved way beyond that that a long time ago.

Also Marine isn't going to let you go up and hit him. No, the second he sees his enemy you will go after him that instant to kill him. And someone with all the enhanced muscle will move really fast. If the enemy (manages to) makes an attack the Marine will dodge it, parry it or block it and make his own attack.

paddyfool

2013-09-22, 08:57 AM

He knows marital arts that have not been invented yet.

Oooh, really? ;)

Brother Oni

2013-09-22, 11:07 AM

Oooh, really? ;)

I don't think we can discuss what the Emperor's Children get up to these days without breaking board rules. :smalltongue:

lord_khaine

2013-09-22, 01:00 PM

And proberly some sanity checks as well :smallbiggrin:

Though i agree, when Batman can be beated by someone like Bane, then i dont belive he has a chance against the Marine without several meters of plot armor.

The Glyphstone

2013-09-22, 01:36 PM

Batman has been beaten by Bane. Batman has beaten Darkseid. Trying to reconcile these causes 404 errors, like any comic book vs. non comic book matchup ends up in.

Lamech

2013-09-22, 02:23 PM

404 Logic Not Found. Please Reset Universe.

gooddragon1

2013-09-22, 04:42 PM

404 Logic Not Found. Please Reset Universe.

*Command Accepted*
*Initiating RetKhan*
*Khan now played by Benedict Cumberbatch*

GolemsVoice

2013-09-22, 09:36 PM

Lost Demiurge

2013-09-23, 10:37 AM

Ventrini would be pretty dead as well.

Ah, no. Vetinari may not WIN, but he certainly will not LOSE.

SOLUTION

The Space marine shows up to find nobody there. Confused, he radios in to the people running the fight. He gets Vetinari in on the other end of things, and promptly calls him a coward and a loser.

Vetinari calmly explains that the rules merely stated that they must be 20 feet apart. They did not say which species "feet" were being used for the purposes of measurement. As such, giant spacegoing turtlefeet are legitimate, and Vetinari chose his starting direction to be UP. Which, coincidentally happened to be the same coordinates as a Rogue Trader ship which... Someone... Hired to be in that sector.

Have fun getting to him with a flashlight. Perhaps the marine can make intimidating shadow puppets that are somehow visible to him in orbit? In the meantime, the Patrician can get back to taking care of real business. Like bargaining with the tau and the empire of humanity simultaneously to get Discworld recognized as neutral territory, buying some bootleg power armor for the Ankh-Morpork guards so that they can go tyrannid hunting if any ever show, helping the witches locate Discworld's necron tombs so that Granny Weatherwax can be waiting for them when they wake up, to glare them back into going to sleep, scheduling tea with Mustrum Ridcully to discuss matters if "those chaos god chappies" ever try to bust in again from the dungeon dimensions, and introducing DISCWORLD orcs to any SPACE orks that somehow think invading might be a good idea.

Oh, and since the Patrician got your chapter to vow to avoid helping you in this challenge before revealing this twist, mister marine, you're going to be down on that planet for quite some time. But if you would care to yield, then, well, Ankh-Morpork could quite use a specialist or two, a good man in case of trouble. Do you believe in angels, friend marine?

So yeah. The Patrician either gets a draw or wins, for certain definitions of winning. Then goes and shakes his head at the notion of expecting ANYONE to play fair, given such a lopsided challenge.

Aotrs Commander

2013-09-23, 12:06 PM

Ah, no. Vetinari may not WIN, but he certainly will not LOSE.

SOLUTION

The Space marine shows up to find nobody there. Confused, he radios in to the people running the fight. He gets Vetinari in on the other end of things, and promptly calls him a coward and a loser.

Vetinari calmly explains that the rules merely stated that they must be 20 feet apart. They did not say which species "feet" were being used for the purposes of measurement. As such, giant spacegoing turtlefeet are legitimate, and Vetinari chose his starting direction to be UP. Which, coincidentally happened to be the same coordinates as a Rogue Trader ship which... Someone... Hired to be in that sector.

Have fun getting to him with a flashlight. Perhaps the marine can make intimidating shadow puppets that are somehow visible to him in orbit? In the meantime, the Patrician can get back to taking care of real business. Like bargaining with the tau and the empire of humanity simultaneously to get Discworld recognized as neutral territory, buying some bootleg power armor for the Ankh-Morpork guards so that they can go tyrannid hunting if any ever show, helping the witches locate Discworld's necron tombs so that Granny Weatherwax can be waiting for them when they wake up, to glare them back into going to sleep, scheduling tea with Mustrum Ridcully to discuss matters if "those chaos god chappies" ever try to bust in again from the dungeon dimensions, and introducing DISCWORLD orcs to any SPACE orks that somehow think invading might be a good idea.

Oh, and since the Patrician got your chapter to vow to avoid helping you in this challenge before revealing this twist, mister marine, you're going to be down on that planet for quite some time. But if you would care to yield, then, well, Ankh-Morpork could quite use a specialist or two, a good man in case of trouble. Do you believe in angels, friend marine?

So yeah. The Patrician either gets a draw or wins, for certain definitions of winning. Then goes and shakes his head at the notion of expecting ANYONE to play fair, given such a lopsided challenge.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

Oh yes, so much this. So much this!

The Glyphstone

2013-09-23, 01:31 PM

Indeed. A Patrician 'victory' in an entirely in-character fashion.

The real question, of course, is...How Many Spartans Does It Take To Kill A Space Marine? (http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1265176060):smallcool:

HandofShadows

2013-09-23, 01:50 PM

Batman has been beaten by Bane. Batman has beaten Darkseid. Trying to reconcile these causes 404 errors, like any comic book vs. non comic book matchup ends up in.

Not hard actually. Bats beat Darkside becasue he had a plan. He has LOTS of plans. And for every plan there was a backup plan. For every backup plan there was a fallback plan. For every fallback plan there was a still another plan. See were this is going?

But with Bane, Batman had never HEARD of Bane before he attacked him and had no plans to deal with him. Bane had also "prepared the field" but getting Bats totaly exausted before the fight chasing down a huge batch of Bat's enemies. Two very different situations.

LordChaos13

2013-09-24, 05:06 AM

Batman has been beaten by Bane. Batman has beaten Darkseid. Trying to reconcile these causes 404 errors, like any comic book vs. non comic book matchup ends up in.

Batman = X
Bane = 2
Darkseid = 10

X > 10
X < 2

Its really quite simple. X is a variable number that changes only depending on the viewer.
Batman is Quantum Physics

shadow_archmagi

2013-09-24, 08:31 AM

Clertar

2013-09-24, 03:59 PM

"Yes we Khan" :smalltongue:

Soras Teva Gee

2013-09-24, 04:07 PM

Batman = X
Bane = 2
Darkseid = 10

X > 10
X < 2

Its really quite simple. X is a variable number that changes only depending on the viewer.
Batman is Quantum Physics

Meh for a ceratain value of "beat" its true, Batman has so help me shot Darkseid with a phlebotnium bullet and let Darkseid beat him up in stolen armor while successfully blackmailing Darkseid with the help of a Mother Box. And in JLU's finale evaded an attack via convenient Parademon. And before that I'm not sure. Maybe they met and "fought" before that but the original statement is questionable

For a different example though certainly. Guy once beat up multiple Supes class dudes with some matches and gasoline (they were Martians) but has trouble with ordinary folks in silly costumes.

Probably just depends on what on the cover. If Bats was to have an exact value based on his core description though it should be low so expect hard to replace shenanigans when he's punching above his number.

Plot shenanigans are the true quantum physics.

deuterio12

2013-09-24, 05:02 PM

Now people have been saying that Khan is a masterful manipulator and play people like an instrument, but we also know Space Marines can be quite charismatic and are incredibly intelligent.

Are they now? Why are they walking around with bright colored armors filled with scribled papers then? Or open books glued to their plating? Or where's any incredible scientific breaktroughs brought by SM in 10 000 years besides "add some extra plating/guns to this vehicle and call it a day"?:smallconfused:

Forum Explorer

2013-09-24, 05:27 PM

Are they now? Why are they walking around with bright colored armors filled with scribled papers then? Or open books glued to their plating? Or where's any incredible scientific breaktroughs brought by SM in 10 000 years besides "add some extra plating/guns to this vehicle and call it a day"?:smallconfused:

because it's purely focused on warfare. They'd certainly lose an election or manipulating people because they barely understand normal humans outside of military matters. However they could certainly lead an army to victory against impossible odds with brilliant new strategies and through inspiration.

GolemsVoice

2013-09-24, 06:34 PM

because it's purely focused on warfare. They'd certainly lose an election or manipulating people because they barely understand normal humans outside of military matters. However they could certainly lead an army to victory against impossible odds with brilliant new strategies and through inspiration.

Well, they DO govern Ultramar, and it seems to be some kind of philosopher kingdom.

The Glyphstone

2013-09-24, 06:48 PM

Well, they DO govern Ultramar, and it seems to be some kind of philosopher kingdom.

They rule it, but they don't do much day-to-day governing - that's left to their appointed castellans, serfs, and representatives. Full-on Astartes only get put in charge of a world as governor when he's too badly injured to stay on active duty, but not injured enough to warrant Dreadnaught interment.

ChaosArchon

2013-09-24, 11:08 PM

Now people have been saying that Khan is a masterful manipulator and play people like an instrument, but we also know Space Marines can be quite charismatic and are incredibly intelligent.

What would happen if we gave them both an intellectual goal, like being elected president of an America-style democracy, or running a successful business and outdo the other? For this, we would of course have to assumethat the SM actually wants to devote his time to such things, otherwise it won't work.

If I'm not mistaken weren't the SM intended by the Emperor to essentially be governors of planets once they finished the Holy Crusade and conquered the whole universe for humanity? I mean the Primarchs were all leaders of their worlds when they were discovered so there is precedent for the Emperor's Children leading civilian governments... albiet these were physical gods of the Space Marines essentially. Also theres Ultramar right? So another example I suppose.

Anyway I'd like to see Caprica 6 vs Khan, who would win :P

Brother Oni

2013-09-25, 01:50 AM

They rule it, but they don't do much day-to-day governing - that's left to their appointed castellans, serfs, and representatives. Full-on Astartes only get put in charge of a world as governor when he's too badly injured to stay on active duty, but not injured enough to warrant Dreadnaught interment.

I know the Salamanders tend to be more hands on with their people/recruitment pool/subjects/whatever they are.

The only other (slightly out of fate) exception is a couple of Deathwing veterans who are rebuilding their homeworld after a genestealer infestation.

The Glyphstone

2013-09-25, 02:19 AM

I know the Salamanders tend to be more hands on with their people/recruitment pool/subjects/whatever they are.

The only other (slightly out of fate) exception is a couple of Deathwing veterans who are rebuilding their homeworld after a genestealer infestation.

Yeah, but Salamanders are kind of atypical in that regard - they actually retain their family ties and live amongst/with their human families after being recruited. I'd expect the 'standard' routine to be more like how Ultramar does things, and even Ultramar is very abberant because it's explicitly a mini-empire ruled by a Space Marine LegionChapter.

GolemsVoice

2013-09-25, 03:06 AM

I'm not saying that it's usual for Space Marines to govern, of course it's not, but sometimes they do, and apparently not that bad.

lord_khaine

2013-09-25, 05:30 PM

If I'm not mistaken weren't the SM intended by the Emperor to essentially be governors of planets once they finished the Holy Crusade and conquered the whole universe for humanity? I mean the Primarchs were all leaders of their worlds when they were discovered so there is precedent for the Emperor's Children leading civilian governments... albiet these were physical gods of the Space Marines essentially. Also theres Ultramar right? So another example I suppose.

You cant compare a Space Marine to a Primac, the first is designed mostly to be a perfect soldier, the other to be among other tings a leader.

And no, regular SM were newer intended to rule the planets they conquered.

ChaosArchon

2013-09-25, 06:10 PM

You cant compare a Space Marine to a Primac, the first is designed mostly to be a perfect soldier, the other to be among other tings a leader.

And no, regular SM were newer intended to rule the planets they conquered.

Your point about the Primarchs vs SM is completely correct. But right before the Battle of Calth the Primarch of the Ultramarines told his SM that the Emperor had intended for them to also be govenors and leaders after war had ended. If I can find the exact quote I'll post it.

EDIT: I found it, "Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture." (Know No Fear. Ch3, p30.)

Fan

2013-09-25, 06:39 PM

Batman has been beaten by Bane. Batman has beaten Darkseid. Trying to reconcile these causes 404 errors, like any comic book vs. non comic book matchup ends up in.

Batman has never beaten Darkseid in a straight fight where Darkseid felt Batman even earned more than a second of his notice. The Omega effect also sent Batman back in time (removing his soul from his body.), and Darkseid didn't really die.

It lead up to the events with The miracle machine where Superman whistles at the perfect frequency to destroy Darkseid's soul.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pScx8BN4h3s/SYMGZIyZaOI/AAAAAAAAClk/h3A2hkMR9vM/s320/fc7-10.jpg

This was after Bruce's bullet hit Darkseid when he had the Anti Life equation (Bruce failing to stop him in death.), and the two Flashes ran at him, bringing with them The Black Racer who claimed Darkseid's soul. In the act though, Darkseid decided to bring the universe with him, dragging the fabric of reality with him through his power.

Superman assembles The Miracle Machine and Darkseid (with The Anti-Life Equation) attempts to stop him from remaking the universe without Darkseid (And thus preventing Batman's apparent "death".).

However once this happens Mandrakk appears and Darkseid becomes a black hole in his true death throes, attempting to take Earth with it. The Monitor comes and Superman uses the solar energy in his cells to summon all of the multiverses Supermen, The GL core, The Zoo Crew, and many many more heroes. They win, drag earth out, and everyone lives happily ever after as Superman wishes for a Happy ending.

And therein ends the events of Final Crisis.

Darkseid is a resilient mofo.

The martian example is also because Martians are hillariously easy to beat, Fire in their general area (not even on them) instantly knocks them out. I could do it.

comicshorse

2013-09-25, 08:00 PM

Your point about the Primarchs vs SM is completely correct. But right before the Battle of Calth the Primarch of the Ultramarines told his SM that the Emperor had intended for them to also be govenors and leaders after war had ended. If I can find the exact quote I'll post it.

EDIT: I found it, "Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture." (Know No Fear. Ch3, p30.)

Yeah but I do believe the SM he says that to thinks to himself that that is never going to work for the World Eaters, the Space Wolves, the Iron Hands......

GolemsVoice

2013-09-25, 09:09 PM

Well, obviously, if your chapter is named World Eaters, some might have second thoughts.

shadow_archmagi

2013-09-26, 10:43 AM

Also, if Space Wolves are just space vikings, then history says they're fantastic at governing. I mean, look at norway!

retromillenium

2016-03-29, 10:29 AM

While Space Marines are prone to arrogance, they are by nature, paranoid and suspicious - as remarked by a Farseer, "you can never surprise a Space Marine, only validate their suspicions".

An Astartes sees what appears to be a mere normal human in front of them, they're unlikely to take him at face value.

A Space Marine is on average, 7'6" tall and weighs approximately 780lbs. In addition to the physical requirements to move that bulk around, they have reinforced bones, extra muscle plus an implanted membrane in the torso that can resist small arms fire.
I seriously doubt that Khan would be able to do any damage to the Marine unarmed and even his advantage of regeneration is going to be negated once the Astartes figures out he needs to use his acid spit to put Khan down.

If you're thinking that a Space Marine is somewhat ridiculous, then welcome to the universe of 40K. :smalltongue:

I don't know where everyone here thinks that an Augment doesn't stand a chance against a Space Marine in hand-to-hand combat. Khan as at least 5 times the strength of James T. Kirk , which he stated in the episode "Space Seed", and Kirk is suppose to be very capable fighter and very athletic. So in effect, Khan and the other Augments had at the very least 5 times the strength of an athlete.
Further, from what we saw in Star Trek Into Darkness, he was a bad ass mother ****er, taking on 20 Klingons, who are also at the very least, 3 times stronger and God knows how many times tougher than humans. He jumped 30 meters to platform, that's about 100ft, with no problem, can a Space Marine do that? Have Space Marines ever fell or jumped 100ft, and landed with no problem? Don't make **** up, quote the facts. So Khan has highly enhanced bone density and highly enhanced muscle fiber, that has been proven not only from watching Into Darkness, but also from the Star Trek Enterprise Augment episodes, and by the way, those Augments were more advanced than Khan since they were developed in a later era Arik Soong. Augments in Star Trek are in many ways more advanced than Space Marines. They have pretty much the same physical capabilities, if not higher physical abilities than Space Marines, without having to be over 7' tall and weighing 700+ lbs. On top of all of that, all of them are super intelligent.

Lastly, an Imperial Guardsman, who I will assume is physical fit and strong, has a Strength rated at 3. A Space Marine has a Strength of 4. If Space Marines were as bad ass as everyone here thinks they are, they should have given them at least Ogryn strength, Strength 5, or higher.