Looking for an item: +3 to all saves

[Rakaydos]

Years ago I remember an item to this effect in the level 26-30 range, but I do not remember what it's called or what slo it is. I tried browsing the character builder, but I didnt see it. Does it still exist, or was it erratta'd? What is it, and where?

[Ashdate]

Years ago I remember an item to this effect in the level 26-30 range, but I do not remember what it's called or what slo it is. I tried browsing the character builder, but I didnt see it. Does it still exist, or was it erratta'd? What is it, and where?

The only one I can see is the Nullifying Ring (Level 30 Ring Slot, AV). Was that it?

[Rakaydos]

It's not what I remember, but it works. Memory might be playing tricks on me.

The character I'm putting together now gets to spend a healing surge when he takes his warforge auto-pass death save. And Sou;forge armor means he doesnt even fall down! Hows that for invincibility?

[tcrudisi]

It's not what I remember, but it works. Memory might be playing tricks on me.

The character I'm putting together now gets to spend a healing surge when he takes his warforge auto-pass death save. And Sou;forge armor means he doesnt even fall down! Hows that for invincibility?

Not bad, but it's not perfect. It's begging for monsters to coup de grace you whenever you are unconscious. That's not something I'd normally do as a DM (except in boss fights), but if a player brought a character like this to the table, I would suddenly start singing a different tune.

Also, what do you have so far in your quest for +9 to saves?

[Rakaydos]

Unfailing Vigor allows me to auto-rez on an 18 or higher on a death saving throw
Disciple of Death gives a +5 feat bonus to death saving throws
Nullifying Ring gives a +3 Item bonus to all saving throws
Warforge race/Selfforged Paragon path allows me to take 10 on death saving throws.
10+5(feat)+3(item)=18 (triggering Unfailing Vigor)

Soulforge armor (Lvl 29 plate armor only) keeps you from falling unconcius (or dying!)no matter how far below 0 you go, until the end of your next turn. (as a property) As you are auto-rezing before that happens, you have a character who literally cannot die. (at least until you run out of surges- and out of quickdrawn 20gp potions)

[Ashdate]

Unfailing Vigor allows me to auto-rez on an 18 or higher on a death saving throw

Unfailing Vigor allows you to "auto-rez" when you roll an 18 or higher on a death saving throw. Like critical hits, it's checking the natural roll, sans bonuses.

So stacking saving throw bonuses doesn't actually help in that regard.

(Edit: Note that the rules for death saving throws however only check if you've rolled a 20 or higher for the purposes of spending a saving throw, so stacking bonuses to this roll should still work)

(Edit 2: if you're willing to give up your belt slot, you can also use a Survivor's Belt to roll twice to see if you can hit a 20. If ALL your allies are willing to give up a slot, then you can potentially get a +5 item save bonus - or higher if you've got more allies - from people wearing "The Returning Beast" set (D396).)

[Rakaydos]

Eh, just means I need Warforged Juggernaut or Destined Scion as well.

[Firebug]

Unfailing Vigor allows you to "auto-rez" when you roll an 18 or higher on a death saving throw. Like critical hits, it's checking the natural roll, sans bonuses.

So stacking saving throw bonuses doesn't actually help in that regard.

(Edit: Note that the rules for death saving throws however only check if you've rolled a 20 or higher for the purposes of spending a saving throw, so stacking bonuses to this roll should still work)

(Edit 2: if you're willing to give up your belt slot, you can also use a Survivor's Belt to roll twice to see if you can hit a 20. If ALL your allies are willing to give up a slot, then you can potentially get a +5 item save bonus - or higher if you've got more allies - from people wearing "The Returning Beast" set (D396).)

If it was checking the natural roll it would say "rolled a natural 18 or higher". You used the example of critical hits, which specifically calls out that it has to be the natural roll. Unfailing vigor (and death saving throws) do not ask for a natural roll. Its clearly stating that you treat your result of 18 or 19 as if it was a 20.

[Ashdate]

If it was checking the natural roll it would say "rolled a natural 18 or higher". You used the example of critical hits, which specifically calls out that it has to be the natural roll. Unfailing vigor (and death saving throws) do not ask for a natural roll. Its clearly stating that you treat your result of 18 or 19 as if it was a 20.

You're right that it was a poor example, but Unfailing vigor still suggests that it asks for a "natural" 18 or higher. The wording is:


When you roll an 18 or higher on a death saving throw, you can spend a healing surge as if you had rolled a 20.

The wording suggests that the intent of this feat is to count a "natural" 18 or 19 as a 20 (as only on a "natural" 20 are you normally allowed to spend a healing surge on a death saving throw), but they use this wording elsewhere without specifically calling out the roll as a "natural".

Example 1: Jagged Weapons
The property of this weapons says that they score critical hits on a 19 or 20. A hilariously bad RAW reading of this would suggests that these are not on a natural 19 or 20, thus making them incredibly strange weapons to play with at both low and high levels.

Example 2: The Infernal Prince Character Theme
The Infernal Prince Character Theme allows character to reroll a bluff or diplomacy check when their roll is 5 or less at 5th level. This feature would be absolutely useless it was looking strictly at the die roll, as not only does the theme give you +2 itself, but any 5th level character is going to have a natural +2 anyway. Only a character with an 8 charisma would be able to "use" this power if we were checking die roll + modifier, and even then not past level 8).

Example 3: The "futuristic" weapons from dragon 410
i.e. the "laser pistol", the "chainsaw sword", etc. They all malfunction on a roll of 1 on an attack roll. If we insist that because they don't strictly mention a "natural 1", then it's virtually impossible to even trigger the malfunction, as rolling a modified 1 - especially with magical weapons - is extraordinarily unlikely).

There are tons more I'm sure I could find if I bothered.

The bottom line is - as with anything - if your DM is okay with reading a particular feat/power a certain way, great. They're the final arbiter of the rules after all. There is a RAW argument for suggesting that Unfailing vigor does not check "natural" rolls, certainly, as well as potentially a lot of finger-wagging at WotC for not being consistent. But in an actual game, you'll find that RAI tends to trump RAW, and I think for most readings of the Unfailing Vigor feat, the RAI suggests that it is looking for a "natural" 18 or higher.

[Rakaydos]

Except Death savig throws DONT require a natural roll, 20 or otherwise. (which is the whole point of this build, to guarantee a successful surge every time a death save is rolled)

Pg 295 PHB1: Death saving throws
-20 or higher: spend a healing surge.

Because Unfailing Vigor calls out Death saving throws, it increases this NON NATURAL range to 18 and up.

[Ashdate]

Except Death savig throws DONT require a natural roll, 20 or otherwise. (which is the whole point of this build, to guarantee a successful surge every time a death save is rolled)

Pg 295 PHB1: Death saving throws
-20 or higher: spend a healing surge.

Because Unfailing Vigor calls out Death saving throws, it increases this NON NATURAL range to 18 and up.

I think that's a good point, but then why would Unfailing Vigor not simply grant an untyped +2 bonus, which would do the exact same thing with clearly language? And how does that jive with other abilities - like the ones I listed above - if we always assume that anytime a "natural" roll isn't called out that modifiers must be taken into consideration first?

I believe the intent of the feat when it was printed back in PHB3, was to allow players to spend healing surges on rolls other than a 20, which would be the default for most characters. We can quibble about what this means by RAW, but I suspect the language that was used was meant to indicate that the designer figured that the player would be rolling an 18 or 19, not hitting it with a modifier. They had used bonuses to death saving throws before (in PHB2 in fact), so why not here?

But again, the bottom line is that if your DM is okay with interpreting Unfailing Courage to effectively grant an untyped +2 bonus to death saving throws, power to you. But I wouldn't assume it does, when there are so many other examples of that wording not working that way.

[Rakaydos]

I think that's a good point, but then why would Unfailing Vigor not simply grant an untyped +2 bonus, which would do the exact same thing with clearly language? And how does that jive with other abilities - like the ones I listed above - if we always assume that anytime a "natural" roll isn't called out that modifiers must be taken into consideration first?

I believe the intent of the feat when it was printed back in PHB3, was to allow players to spend healing surges on rolls other than a 20, which would be the default for most characters. We can quibble about what this means by RAW, but I suspect the language that was used was meant to indicate that the designer figured that the player would be rolling an 18 or 19, not hitting it with a modifier. They had used bonuses to death saving throws before (in PHB2 in fact), so why not here?
It is more limited than a +2 untyped- it doesnt reduce the chance of FAILING a death save, only makes you more likely to rez if you roll high.

The wording is easy to understand, even by people who missed the implications of "20 or more" working differenty than the crit mechanics elsewhere in the game. This is especially relevant in that Essentials are supposed to be easy for new layers to grasp. But being in the same book as a +2 feat bonus to ALL saves (for any character race) means making NOT stack with save bonuses makes it a trap option, even within the same book.

[Ashdate]

It is more limited than a +2 untyped- it doesnt reduce the chance of FAILING a death save, only makes you more likely to rez if you roll high.

The wording is easy to understand, even by people who missed the implications of "20 or more" working differenty than the crit mechanics elsewhere in the game. This is especially relevant in that Essentials are supposed to be easy for new layers to grasp. But being in the same book as a +2 feat bonus to ALL saves (for any character race) means making NOT stack with save bonuses makes it a trap option, even within the same book.

Again, I think the straight reading (RAI) of the feat is that you have to roll an 18 or higher, not simply hit that by stacking saves to get a "modified" 18.

To interpret it as anything as "if you roll an 18 or 19 on a d20, treat it as if you rolled a 20" is almost certain the intent of the feat . As I said, there is a RAW argument, and again, if your DM disagrees with me and agrees with your interpretation, bully for you. But I wouldn't assume your interpretation would work in a game without DM approval.

(As an aside, I would agree that it's a poor feat if RAI, but that is neither hear nor there. Would we to have a game where it was consistent in calling out "natural" rolls against modified ones...)