Book of Darkness, Descent of Shadows, and the Line between Homebrew and 3rd party.

[Xuldarinar]

Digging around I recently became aware of this book: Book of Darkness: Guide to Shadow magick. It was released some time in 2010. Taking a look at the sample of it (Here (http://www.geeknative.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/book-of-darkness.pdf)), I stumbled upon something. Mysteries that seemed familiar.

The familiar mysteries in question were as follows:

Fundamentals:
Ghostly Blade, Midnight Veil, Olden Tales, Shadow Vigor, Shadowy Touch, Shadowstep, Sustained Stride, Tools of the Trade, Trick of the Light, Withdrawn Thought

Apprentice Paths:
False Faces, Waking Nightmares, Voice from Beyond, Shaded Flame, Out of Mind, Shadow's Whispers, Umbral Charm

Initiate Paths:
Shadow's Shield, Darken Wards, Infinite Eyes, Twisted Mockery, Umbral Mass, Dark Journey

Master Paths:
Dark Dreams, One with Naught, Endless Void,- (the sample cuts off there)

Where are they from you might ask? Well, from my previous knowledge and only confirmed by (this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?277441-Books-of-Shadows-%96-A-Guide-to-Shadow-Magic)), the source is here on the Playground. Back in 2008, there was this lovely piece of homebrew, Descent of Shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519). There are even PDFs for it (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12400178&postcount=199)).

Now, aside from potentially questionable business practices (I don't know of Realm of Chaos's involvement with the production of the book. Also, a fair bit seem ripped from Tome of Magic itself as well..), I have an interesting question from the standpoint of approaching a DM with content.

Frequently I think of content as follows:
Core, 'Official' Supplements, 3rd Party Supplements, and Homebrew.

This might seem silly to some (or even many), but given that Descent of Shadows has content that seems to have been copied verbatim in Book of Darkness: Guide to Shadow Magic, I find myself wondering where Descent of Shadows now falls.

[TuggyNE]

From my perspective, there is no qualitative difference between 3rd party and homebrew, except the reputability of the publisher (for homebrew, usually one-man hobby shops, for 3rd party, often also one-man shops). There's a fair bit of homebrew of higher quality in every respect than the output of a fair number of "professional" publishers.

[Xuldarinar]

From my perspective, there is no qualitative difference between 3rd party and homebrew, except the reputability of the publisher (for homebrew, usually one-man hobby shops, for 3rd party, often also one-man shops). There's a fair bit of homebrew of higher quality in every respect than the output of a fair number of "professional" publishers.

To my own perspective, there is a difference. If I'm not mistaken, 3rd party generally gets some form of permission from WotC to produce content for their game, or in the case of pathfinder Paizo. The simple fact content, regardless of quality, is actually published and sold, makes some difference to my perception. I do admit and agree the quality does differ between various publishers and between various homebrewers. Some homebrew is higher quality than a a lot of 3rd party content, and some even official supplements. Hey, if I'm not mistaken some 3rd party is held to be much better than even some official content, like Hyperconscious: Explorations in Psionics when compared to Complete Psionic.

I hate to be one caught up in labels. If I weren't so concerned about them, this would be simpler. The simple fact of the matter that some homebrew from one thing (with or without permission) was published in a 3rd party supplement, would one then:

View only the copied content to then be 3rd party supplementary content, the rest remaining homebrew.

View the whole of the homebrew to be viable 3rd party supplementary content.

Still view it as homebrew and ignore the existence of the book.

Much of this would only come into play really, if a DM flat out said that 3rd party content is fine to bring to the table, but homebrew is not.

[TuggyNE]

To my own perspective, there is a difference. If I'm not mistaken, 3rd party generally gets some form of permission from WotC to produce content for their game, or in the case of pathfinder Paizo.

Nope! OGL means WotC gave permission up front for anyone, anyone at all, to do that. 3rd party publishers use the OGL licensing, without making any special arrangement, and without having any direct contact with WotC. So do homebrewers.

A few companies did make special arrangements, like Paizo, and therefore are somewhat closer to official, but those are usually called 2nd party or something.

[Xuldarinar]

Nope! OGL means WotC gave permission up front for anyone, anyone at all, to do that. 3rd party publishers use the OGL licensing, without making any special arrangement, and without having any direct contact with WotC. So do homebrewers.

A few companies did make special arrangements, like Paizo, and therefore are somewhat closer to official, but those are usually called 2nd party or something.

Huh, well, you learn something every day.

[Fax Celestis]

First party: WotC-published materials (Forge of War, Dragons of Eberron, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Champion, etc.)
Second party: WotC-outsourced materials (Sword and Sorcery's Ravenloft Player's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Ravenloft-Players-Handbook-Campaign-Setting/dp/1588460916), Sovereign Press' Legends of the Twins (http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Dragonlance/dp/193156731X), AEG's Rokugan, Paizo's Savage Tide).
Third party: OGL materials not sanctioned by WotC (Goodman Games' Etherscope (http://www.goodman-games.com/etherscope.html), Dreamscarred Press' Untapped Potential (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/cid=1/pid=23.html), Sword and Sorcery's Hyperconscious (http://www.amazon.com/Hyperconscious-Explorations-Psionics-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/1588469956), Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might (http://www.amazon.com/Monte-Cooks-Collected-Experimental-Malhavoc/dp/1601250800/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379547385&sr=1-1&keywords=book+of+experimental+might))
Homebrew: Unpublished, hobbyist-created material (like anything in my signature)

[Xuldarinar]

First party: WotC-published materials (Forge of War, Dragons of Eberron, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Champion, etc.)
Second party: WotC-outsourced materials (Sword and Sorcery's Ravenloft Player's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Ravenloft-Players-Handbook-Campaign-Setting/dp/1588460916), Sovereign Press' Legends of the Twins (http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Dragonlance/dp/193156731X), AEG's Rokugan, Paizo's Savage Tide).
Third party: OGL materials not sanctioned by WotC (Goodman Games' Etherscope (http://www.goodman-games.com/etherscope.html), Dreamscarred Press' Untapped Potential (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/cid=1/pid=23.html), Sword and Sorcery's Hyperconscious (http://www.amazon.com/Hyperconscious-Explorations-Psionics-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/1588469956), Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might (http://www.amazon.com/Monte-Cooks-Collected-Experimental-Malhavoc/dp/1601250800/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379547385&sr=1-1&keywords=book+of+experimental+might))
Homebrew: Unpublished, hobbyist-created material (like anything in my signature)

Huh. Thank you. That is pretty straight forward and handles the fundamental question.

[Saidoro]

A few companies did make special arrangements, like Paizo, and therefore are somewhat closer to official, but those are usually called 2nd party or something.

:smallconfused: The second party is the consumer. It's not a ranking system it's a list of the two people who made the initial transaction with the third party (who was not involved in your decision to purchase the players handbook) being listed last because they're only supplemental to the initial transaction. Any homebrew you have written yourself is second party material and any homebrew written by someone who is neither yourself or WotC is third party material.

That being said, the main difference between published third party material and the stuff you find on the homebrew boards here is the price tag. In both categories some is good and some bad.

[Snowbluff]

First party: WotC-published materials (Forge of War, Dragons of Eberron, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Champion, etc.)
Second party: WotC-outsourced materials (Sword and Sorcery's Ravenloft Player's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Ravenloft-Players-Handbook-Campaign-Setting/dp/1588460916), Sovereign Press' Legends of the Twins (http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Dragonlance/dp/193156731X), AEG's Rokugan, Paizo's Savage Tide).
Third party: OGL materials not sanctioned by WotC (Goodman Games' Etherscope (http://www.goodman-games.com/etherscope.html), Dreamscarred Press' Untapped Potential (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/cid=1/pid=23.html), Sword and Sorcery's Hyperconscious (http://www.amazon.com/Hyperconscious-Explorations-Psionics-Roleplaying-Adventure/dp/1588469956), Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might (http://www.amazon.com/Monte-Cooks-Collected-Experimental-Malhavoc/dp/1601250800/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379547385&sr=1-1&keywords=book+of+experimental+might))
Homebrew: Unpublished, hobbyist-created material (like anything in my signature)
You know, I've always thought the second party would be the gamer. The first party being the developer (including licensed work), and the third party being neither the developer or the consumer.

"I, the developer, am providing you, the buyer, with a service that they, third party developers, are supplementing."

[Saidoro]

You know, I've always thought the second party would be the gamer. The first party being the developer (including licensed work), and the third party being neither the developer or the consumer.

"I, the developer, am providing you, the buyer, with a service that they, third party developers, are supplementing."
You were correct. What they're describing is some sort of bizarre misappropriation of terminology that's apparently caught on.

[KillianHawkeye]

:smallconfused: The second party is the consumer. It's not a ranking system it's a list of the two people who made the initial transaction with the third party (who was not involved in your decision to purchase the players handbook) being listed last because they're only supplemental to the initial transaction. Any homebrew you have written yourself is second party material and any homebrew written by someone who is neither yourself or WotC is third party material.


You know, I've always thought the second party would be the gamer. The first party being the developer (including licensed work), and the third party being neither the developer or the consumer.

"I, the developer, am providing you, the buyer, with a service that they, third party developers, are supplementing."

The two of you are correct. The second party is us, the players.



The only difference between third party published materials and third party homebrew is that one of them is published and the other is found on the Internet. Some people assume that anything that is published in book format is better edited and of higher quality than random stuff you find on the Internet, but in reality that may or may not be the case.

In other words, placing a sweeping distinction between third party books and homebrew is completely arbitrary. In both cases, DMs should examine the content on a case-by-case basis and decide whether or not to include it in their games.

[Snowbluff]

Homebrew = Third Party


You were correct. What they're describing is some sort of bizarre misappropriation of terminology that's apparently caught on.

Ew, that's disgusting. I hate that when it happens. My mother is a patent lawyer, and she wouldn't be happy to hear this. :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

:smallconfused: The second party is the consumer.

Indeed. All the same, that's usually the term used! :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Forgive my terrible misinterpretation, that's just the way I've heard it explained before.

[Snowbluff]

Forgive my terrible misinterpretation, that's just the way I've heard it explained before.

It's okay. Not everyone was raised by a lawyer. :smalltongue:

[ZippoMoon]

Just want to say that according to this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?277441-Books-of-Shadows-%96-A-Guide-to-Shadow-Magic) review the Book of Darkness is crap!

[flare'90]

Dragon Magazine and Dragon Compendium would be outsourced material or 3rd-party material?

[Xuldarinar]

Just want to say that according to this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?277441-Books-of-Shadows-%96-A-Guide-to-Shadow-Magic) review the Book of Darkness is crap!

Im well aware, I even linked it in the OP. In the review the mysteries were the only thing they liked, which were ripped from the aforementioned homebrew, and no rules concerning mysteries were really put into the book. It doesn't bring up the tome of magic, but both assumes you have read it to understand mysteries, and hopes you haven't noticed it pulled its first several paragraphs from it.

[Fax Celestis]

Dragon Magazine and Dragon Compendium would be outsourced material or 3rd-party material?

Outsourced. Dragon Magazine and its subsidiary products (such as Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine Compendium) are licensed WotC material created by Paizo.

[ZippoMoon]

Im well aware, I even linked it in the OP. In the review the mysteries were the only thing they liked, which were ripped from the aforementioned homebrew, and no rules concerning mysteries were really put into the book. It doesn't bring up the tome of magic, but both assumes you have read it to understand mysteries, and hopes you haven't noticed it pulled its first several paragraphs from it.

HOW did I miss that? *facepalm*

[Xuldarinar]

HOW did I miss that? *facepalm*

We are all bound to miss something from time to time.