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Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 02:51 AM
Post 1 completion goal: Tomorrow (18 Sept)

Why are dragons bad?


They don't get big fast enough

Dragons size scales by CR in a way that makes sense for most evenly-divided leveling schemes, but really throws me off. Dragons are supposed to be Big. That B is capitalized on purpose. This (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Blue-Dragon-392820789) (credit sandara) is the sort of dragon that heroes in epic fantasy should be, yet that sort of dragon doesn't start showing up till around CR 20 or higher--which means most campaigns won't have PCs that get to fight truly enormous dragons. Players with dragon mounts (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Wyrm-80491028) (credit sandara) don't even get appropriately-sized dragons (large or larger, we're discounting mounted gnomes for now) till level 10! So dragons need to be bigger at low levels, both for the sake of our Dragon Riders and our Dragon Slayers.


Huge selection encourages dumpster diving or heavy sandbagging

Just giving dragons access to the sorcerer list means they can pick out half the Spell Compendium, and the vast number of hit dice dragons get is more than enough to supply them with enough combat and metamagic feats to make the Grapplemancer cry. To top it off, dragons get two sourcebooks of material dedicated to the things they do, and amongst all these options is a supply of both gold and horrible terrible tripe. As a DM tasked with writing a dragon, you could put all your options in alertness and toughness etc and end up with an dragon that gets touch-AC'd to death, just as much as you could accidentally take the coolest stuff out of Draconomicon and end up with metabreath monstrosities throwing down two fistfuls of d6 as a swift action.


Too many complicated things

Dragons get some of their very own special abilities that you need to keep track of (when is it beneficial to do a crush attack versus a regular grapple? Is this dragon the right size? What the damage die on all these natural attacks?) as well as a bunch of unselected character options. This means that as a DM you can't just pull out a red dragon--you need to do you tax returns character creation for something with spellcasting, 6 + Int (for high Int) skills, and a bunch of feats. Making DMing harder than it needs to is never something I advocate.


They get spellcasting oh god why

Giving dragons spellcasting be default has already been somewhat described in the above 2 points, but the thing that really irks me is that most dragons aren't doing that.

In the D&D movies, dragons breathed elemental power and clawed things, and that was cool. In Eragon (I know I'm going to get flack for mentioning this) and Dragon Rider, the dragons were tough, smart, keen of senses, and could shoot fire--spellcasting wasn't even mentioned. The quintessential dragon Smaug wasn't casting see invisibility to detect intruders or wings of cover when he was in a fight. His power was being a big fire-breathing monster. And I think that's what dragons should be considered from default.


Color-coded to alignment...

Just giving dragons a re-name solves this, but it's always irked me.


Not playable despite being awesome.

Despite being far stronger than their CR, dragons come with piles of hit dice and LA that makes me sad. Basically every dragon is unplayable out of the box (though WhamBamSam is doing a good job of picking the best of the best (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204)), and even worse: Dragons larger than medium are hardly even available options.


They are good at everything, and totally under-CR'd

Perhaps this should have gone first. For whatever reason, people don't think it's true. All I can really say is--look at a dragon's statblock, then look at another equal encounter statblock, and find all the ways either side is superior. The dragon is basically always too strong for its CR, and while this makes for great stories (and really makes dragons prestigious), it does not translate well to a PC class, so I'm making the sacrifice.


Why are there so many age categories?

This isn't so much of a big deal, but I never understood why we had names for two different subtypes of a dragon that differ by all of 1 CR. That just seems to add clutter.

What are we going to do about it?
If you make dragons a PC class and balance that class, a lot of these problems go away. You also get a lot of room for modularity if you use PrCs. Also we can make sample builds that don't suck (why picks alertness for a dragon's feats? Seriously...), and revise the benefits so that dragons aren't the Best Chassis Ever.

What should I be wary of?
I use a lot of my homebrew rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302209). I will include provisions for making things your own, but I'll forget (guaranteed). I also don't do math well so I eyeball a lot of things, and formatting drives me crazy.

The Dragon PC Class
The concept of a dragon coming right out of an egg and being immediately capable of adventuring is a strange one to me. So dragons do not begin adventuring until they're medium-sized, which corresponds with being young (age 16-25). At this point dragons have achieved human maturity.

Random dragon starting age: 15 + 1d10

{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Maximum Age|Special
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|25|Archetype, bite attack, elemental immunity, minor flight, natural armor
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|40|Breath weapon, draconic senses
3|+1|+3|+1|+3|55|Claw attacks, draconic immunities
4|+2|+4|+1|+4|70|Archetype 1, +2 Str
5|+2|+4|+1|+4|90|Draconic flight, +2 Con
6|+3|+5|+2|+5|110|Large, +2 Str
7|+3|+5|+2|+5|130|Archetype 2, Damage reduction
8|+4|+6|+2|+6|155|Tail attack, +2 Str
9|+4|+6|+3|+6|180|Archetype 3, frightful presence
10|+5|+7|+3|+7|205|Spell resistance, +2 Con, +2 Str
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Int. NPC dragons are pre-generated with a list of skills at maximum rank.

Archetype: From birth, each dragon is gifted with the same elemental immunity and archetype as its parents. The immunity is detailed later and decide the dragon's primary damage type as well as the environments it favors, but a dragon's archetype determines how it grows in power and what capabilities it has available. The four archetypes below grant dragons class skills that they automatically gain ranks in equal to their dragon level + 3, and continue to grant bonuses thereafter.
Drake: Intimidate, Spot, Survival
True Dragon: Concentration, Spot, Listen
Wyrm: Spellcraft, Concentration, 1 knowledge skill of choice
Sovereign: This the catchall term for dragons. They get individual skills and bonuses (doing five now, but I'm sure there's room for more in "catchall").
Shadow: Hide, Move silently
Psionic: Autohypnosis, Psicraft, Bluff
Nature: Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Listen



This is meant to go hand-in-hand with the low skill ranks. Dragons can do a lot of things, but certain concepts are very core to the dragon and you don't get to choose whether you take spellcraft as a mage or not. Most classes should have 4 + Int skills, but these compensate.

Bite Attack: The dragon begins with a bite attack, dealing 1d8 damage + 1 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. They can be used in a full attack with the dragon's other natural weapons--the dragon may choose to use this as his primary weapon during a full attack.

Considering you're not proficient with any weapons, it's nice to have some reliable damage. Notice that the dragon isn't getting special reach considerations. I find that annoying.

Elemental Immunity (Ex): Choose one damage type from (Sonic, Acid, Electricity, Fire, Cold). The dragon gains immunity to damage of that type.

That's right, a 1st level dragon does not get breath weapon. From a balance perspective, handing dragons 2 damaging abilities is frontloading, and from a flavor perspective I like to justify it as the dragon developing. Perhaps the magic organ was not yet ready to contain all that... magic stuff that produces breath weapons, or maybe it just had to grow from when the dragon was a baby. Goodness knows!

Minor flight: The dragon has a fly speed equal to half its move speed, with poor maneuverability. It cannot use this fly speed more than 1 round per dragon level in a row.

Natural armor: The dragon begins with a +3 natural armor bonus which does not stack with other armor bonuses. This improves by 1 at level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter.

Now the dragon gets to be more useful as a tank. Good thing too, because they can't wear regular armor.

Breath Weapon (Su): At level 2, a dragon gains a breath weapon, either as a line out to 20' per dragon level or a cone out to 10' per dragon level, that deals 1d6/HD damage of the type selected by your elemental immunity.

This breath weapon area scales in area because combats scale in size. At level 1, you're fighting skeletons and goblins on the 20' landings in the Sunless Citadel, and at level 20 you're flying over armies. Might have to scale quadratically even... The damage is OK for clearing rats out, but I promise it will get better.

Draconic Senses (Ex): At level 2, a dragon's eyesight improves. It can see twice as far as a human in shadowy illumination, and gains darkvision out to 60 feet. At level 6, it instead can see four times as far as a human and gains darkvision out to 120 feet.

Claw Attacks: At level 3, a dragon gains 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 + 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. They can be used in a full attack with the dragon's other natural weapons--the dragon may choose to use them as his primary weapon during a full attack.

Now the dragon can make full attacks. This should cement it in the espoused role of "stand in front of all the bad guys, wail on a dude, breath fire".

Draconic immunities (Ex): At level 3, a dragon is immune to sleep and paralysis effects.

Archetype 1: Depending on the archetype that the dragon was born into, it gains an ability listed here:
Roar (Drake): As a move action, a drake can unleash a mighty roar. All creatures within 60 feet of the drake must either make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the dragon's HD + the dragon's Constitution modifier) or become shaken, or make a Fortitude save (DC 8 + 1/2 the dragon's HD + the dragon's Constitution modifier) or become deafened. The effects last for 2 minutes, or an hour if they fail the save by 5 or more. Roar is not a fear effect.
Invocations (Least) (True Dragon): The true dragon may select 3 least invocations that it knows (add more links to homebrew invocations here), as per the warlock or dragonfire adept. These invocations can be taken from either list, but the dragon cannot choose blast shape invocations. Eldritch essences affect his breath weapon. The true dragon then gains 1 additional least invocation per level until his .
Sorcerous Power (Wyrm): The wyrm gains casting as per a sorcerer of its dragon level - 3, but bonus spell slots, minimum attribute required to cast spells, and save DCs are based on Intelligence. The wyrm additionally gains an 3 bonus spell slots of each spell level he has access to.
Unique (Sovereign): Each sovereign gets an additional ability, which references the Archetype Number. It's the number in the ability title here (1), and will increase to (2) and (3) later.

Shadow: Shadow dragons can see out to their darkvision range in all forms of darkness--even magical darkness. Shadow dragons can cast deeper darkness at-will, but may only have one instance active at a time.
Psionic: Psionic dragons can passively detect the presence of intelligence within 60 feet of them as if they constantly benefited from 1 round of observation using detect thoughts. They cannot pinpoint the location from which the thought comes, but they can determine roughly how many minds there are, whether those minds are hostile (not to the dragon specifically, but thinking hostile thoughts), and if those minds are familiar.
The effect can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Opponents may also willfully resist the ability for an hour at a time by making a successful will save (DC 14 + 1/2 the dragon's hit die + the dragon's intelligence modifier). Will saves may only be repeated once per hour, and the dragon notices a creature that fails its save.

In addition, psionic dragons can sense opponents attacking them. They get a +2 insight bonus to AC and saves against any opponent affected by their passive thought detection.

These are both [Mind-Affecting] effects.
Nature: Nature dragons are highly attuned to their environment, and they learn to become that which they protect. A nature dragon can wild shape as a druid of its dragon level into tiny or small animals. Every time the nature dragon permanently increases in size, it can wild shape into animals one size category larger than beforehand.

In addition, nature dragons can lay on hands as a paladin of its dragon level.



Draconic Flight: The dragon no longer has a maximum number of rounds that it can fly in a row. It's maneuverability improves to average, and its speed equals its land speed.

Large: If the dragon is not permanently large, its grows to large size. This is not a magical size increase, and does not grant any attribute or natural armor changes.

Beware of walls of text. While some of these might seem like they scale crazy while others don't, I have it under control. The next archetypes will give very little if you're getting something like spellcasting, but will grant big bonuses if you got a one-time benefit like See in Darkness.

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 02:54 AM
Still Reserving Posts Here, Captain.

OUTLINE:
1. Why are dragons bad? Problems with CR, dumpster diving, setup, and doing everything.
2. Fixing dragons--AS A PC CLASS, ERMAGERD WHAT
3. Dragon base classes, because I had these awesome ideas and need to share them.
4. Dragon feats--seriously, who wrote those things for WotC. That stuff is terrible.
5. Dragons as enemies--Writing dragon statblocks, how dragons age, and how they should fight.
6. Misc?

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 02:56 AM
Because I need to wait 60 seconds between posts, I'm just gonna keep writing while I reserve things...

Dragon
d12
1/2 BAB (that's right, wizard BAB)
Good fort/will
4 + Int skills (dunno the list yet)

Class is 10 levels, with areas for dragon archetypes, then each type of dragon gets a semi-unique 10-level class for afterwards.

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 02:57 AM
Just a few more...

1. Small immunities, breath weapon, bite attack
2. 3 + 1/2 lvl NatArmor, keen senses
3. Claws, dragon immunities
4. +2 Str, X
5. +2 Con, Flight
6. +2 Str, Large
7. DR lvl/magic, Y
8. +2 Str, Tail attack
9. Frightful Presence, Z
10. +2 Str, +2 Con, Spell Resistance

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 03:02 AM
One more after this.

ARCHETYPES

True Dragon
x = invocation progression (least, more available)
y = cc with breath
z = lesser invocations!

Drake
x = Roar, or some weak fast cc
y = more breath damage
z = strafing attacks(?), or How to Deal with Smart Parties

Wyrm
x = Sorc casting (level - 3), +3 spells / day of each level. No spells other than sorc/wiz list!
y = You get 2nd level spells... is this enough?
z = Free persist spell 1/day

Sovereign (covers random archetypes)
Shadow -- miss chance, str drain, illusion magic
Artifice -- get items for free, craft items(?), You Activated My Trap Card
Psionic -- Mind control/charm, stunning mind blast, predictive actions?
Nature -- Wildshape, grow plants errywhere, heal things
Necrotic -- Get undead legions, nauseating breath, heal self?, magic arcing effects?
Curses -- Disrupt casting, penalties to actions, action denial

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 03:04 AM
Aaaand on hold

Dragoon: Use a lance, jump from things, tame and ride dragons. Of Warrior, Rogue, Mage, this is the rogue.

Dragon Shaman: Not sure what to do here. Get a dragon totem, have good perception, breath weapon, and single-target damage. blaster type. Mage.

Dragonshifter: Barbarian-style shapeshifting into dragons. Ranger tracking, monk powers (zen AC, run on water, stunning attacks?), aura buffs. Definitely warrior.

Jormengand
2013-09-18, 10:54 AM
Post 1 completion goal: Tomorrow (18 Sept)

Why are dragons bad?
They don't get big fast enough
Huge selection encourages dumpster diving
Too many complicated things (crush attacks, choosing skills)
They get spellcasting oh god why
Color-coded to alignment...
Not playable despite being awesome.
They are good at everything, and totally under-CR'd

What are we going to do about it?
If you make dragons a PC class and balance that class, a lot of these problems go away. You also get a lot of room for modularity if you use PrCs. Also we can make sample builds that don't suck (why picks alertness for a dragon's feats? Seriously...), and revising the benefits so that dragons aren't the Best Chassis Ever can have its uses.

What should I be wary of?
I use a lot of my homebrew rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302209). I will include provisions for making things your own, but I'll forget (guaranteed). I also don't do math well so I eyeball a lot of things, and formatting drives me crazy.

Pathfinder brings you The Gold Dragon, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/zerzix-s-torture-chamber/bestiary-levels/dragon-classes/gold-dragon-class) along with its silver cousin, which although annoying as far as your first problem is concerned (Still Small at ninth level? Really?) neatly solves your last two problems, doesn't mention anything that would annoy your third, and bypasses your fifth with a cheeky "Normally." The spellcasting is minorly horrific (I'm sorry, Quest at will?) but can easily be removed and replaced, or even just altered (I don't think that at-will Daylight or Detect Evil is going to be gamebreaking, and I like my dragons magical.) I'm not sure what you mean by Dumpster Diving, though.

Anyway, that may at least give you some ideas.

LordErebus12
2013-09-18, 01:19 PM
Pathfinder brings you The Gold Dragon, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/zerzix-s-torture-chamber/bestiary-levels/dragon-classes/gold-dragon-class)
Anyway, that may at least give you some ideas.

My reaction (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20120914120348!Exploding-head.gif)

ddude987
2013-09-18, 01:58 PM
I think dragons size increase is fine as written, traditionally in fantasy dragons lived to be what thousands of years old? I digress,
I am very interested in what you do here so I'll give my 2 cents when I can. Why do you think dragons should not have sorcerer casting?

Beelzebub1111
2013-09-18, 03:54 PM
One point I'd like to make: I don't think dragons are under CR'd. And I can sum up why in about three words "Treasure: Triple Standard" They are difficult for their Challenge Rating, I won't disagree, but they are still doable at their CR's level. And what they lack in giving you XP for the encounter, they make up for it literally three times over in wealth.

AuraTwilight
2013-09-18, 04:06 PM
Not playable despite being awesome.

The only problem you listed I really fully agree with.

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 05:11 PM
I think dragons size increase is fine as written, traditionally in fantasy dragons lived to be what thousands of years old?I'm cool with dragons living thousands of years, but the different categories of dragon need to feel meaningful. The difference between a "juvenile" and "young adult" dragon is hit dice and access to DR/magic--that's not really a different monster, that's an advanced monster with a passive tacked on, and it doesn't deserve a name.


I am very interested in what you do here so I'll give my 2 cents when I can. Why do you think dragons should not have sorcerer casting?Because it's yet another option (on top of feat selection and skills) that you, as a DM, have to write up from scratch before allowing the players to give it a look. It also eats up page count like crazy when you do write it, wiz/sorc spells have ridiculous buffs high-level that make optimizing a dragon encounter just ridiculous, and giving every dragon sorcerer casting cuts out on the number of awesome features you could give them instead like being bigger, breathing more fire, causing earthquakes when they land, etc.

Surely some dragons deserve to be Nicol Bolas when they become Great Wyrms, but it shouldn't be the standard.


One point I'd like to make: I don't think dragons are under CR'd. And I can sum up why in about three words "Treasure: Triple Standard" They are difficult for their Challenge Rating, I won't disagree, but they are still doable at their CR's level. And what they lack in giving you XP for the encounter, they make up for it literally three times over in wealth.

A few things on this:
The reason you get triple treasure is because dragons are hard to kill. Getting more stuff in exchange for being beaten within an inch of your life does not make that beating any better during the fact.
Aren't creatures supposed to use the treasure you take from them? So wouldn't this make the encounter that much harder?
Srsly this is a thing that gets better stats than you (everywhere except Dex), free sorcerer buffs (of course they're buffs, it wants to improve its mauling capabilities), free strafing tactics and a you-can't-catch-me speed, and hilariously strong grapple modifiers. Scariest thing in the monster manual, hands down (except maybe Shadows).

The Mentalist
2013-09-18, 05:31 PM
Scariest thing in the monster manual, hands down

Something has to be and dragons are universal enough in myth to take that claim and run with it. Now there is something to be said for differentiating the different types of dragons further from each other, and getting rid of the damned "Color Coded For Your Convenience" but dragons have good reason to be scary and cutting Sorcerer casting is not the worst thing you can do to them but you'll need to buff their Touch AC if you do or you'll see dragons dropping out of the sky with a Reached Shivering Touch (and Chain it to bring down the whole family)



Because it's yet another option (on top of feat selection and skills) that you, as a DM, have to write up from scratch before allowing the players to give it a look.


You don't have to customize every dragon, as a matter of fact spell choice and use is a very easy way to make dragons different from each other without having to re-write the whole monster.



wiz/sorc spells have ridiculous buffs high-level that make optimizing a dragon encounter just ridiculous,

You don't have to optimize every dragon either. I've run dragons as melee tanks before and I've run dragons as full-on Tier 1 Wizard death machines and they function "Out of the box" in both roles quite well.




and giving every dragon sorcerer casting cuts out on the number of awesome features you could give them instead like being bigger, breathing more fire, causing earthquakes when they land, etc.


Or you can use spells to replicate these things, whichever.
Enlarge Person (custom so it works on Dragons) (permanencied if you're feeling fancy-shmancy)
Cone of Cold (Fire Substituted) or Lightning Bolt (Fire Substituted)
Earthquake, Widened Grease, Entangle, Solid Fog all options if refluffed

Yogibear41
2013-09-18, 05:43 PM
My reaction (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20120914120348!Exploding-head.gif)


Finds 6 level hound archon class that is amazing, begins to think of ways to talk DM into letting me play it in an e6 game.

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 05:52 PM
You don't have to customize every dragon, as a matter of fact spell choice and use is a very easy way to make dragons different from each other without having to re-write the whole monster.But there is no previous spell selection. So even if I'm using multiple dragons, the first time I stat my dragon out I have to write all its skills (too many skill points...), then choose all its feats (HD/3 == oh man that's a big number), and then pick out somewhere in the range of 6-30 spells. For one monster. Were I writing up a bunch of dragons that might be OK, but I don't write dragon campaigns--just dragon bosses.


You don't have to optimize every dragon either. I've run dragons as melee tanks before and I've run dragons as full-on Tier 1 Wizard death machines and they function "Out of the box" in both roles quite well.I'm not optimizing, I'm picking crap like haste and bear's endurance because they're the first thing that comes to mind. So the dragon uses it and then screws everyone because he's got +40 HP and an extra attack while he auto-wins his grapple against the party fighter at level 10.


snip about reflavoring spellsOr I could just remove spells because it's easier for both the monster-designer and me... laziness is my jam.

EDIT: Before we start up a storm about whether dragons deserve spellcasting and whether writing a dragon from scratch is OK or not, I want to make it known that I'm not throwing out sorcerer casting--there is an archetype of dragon dedicated to keeping it (wyrm), so if you're into dragons with WORLD-SHATTERING MAGIC then don't feel let down! I'd just rather make it an option, for the people who want Nicol Bolas, than a mandatory requirement, so that your friends can still ride on dragons and feel cool.

Beelzebub1111
2013-09-18, 05:53 PM
The reason you get triple treasure is because dragons are hard to kill. Getting more stuff in exchange for being beaten within an inch of your life does not make that beating any better during the fact.
Aren't creatures supposed to use the treasure you take from them? So wouldn't this make the encounter that much harder?
Srsly this is a thing that gets better stats than you (everywhere except Dex), free sorcerer buffs (of course they're buffs, it wants to improve its mauling capabilities), free strafing tactics and a you-can't-catch-me speed, and hilariously strong grapple modifiers. Scariest thing in the monster manual, hands down (except maybe Shadows).
1) Yeah, it does make it better. It means more that you've earned it. A hard fought and well planned victory feels so much better.
2) Dragons can't use coins and art objects and weapons and can't carry potions with them and can't wear armor or most clothing items. And yet they tend to hoard those things anyways
3) May as well say the same thing about demons and devils and devouers and nightshades. They have better stats than you. They get all of their features and spell like abilities "for free". The Fliers are fast and get teleport without error "for free". And their grapples match up to an equivalent sized dragon.

Dragons are strong and awesome, but they're a monster. But monsters get things that players don't. It's just the natural order of things.

Just to Browse
2013-09-18, 06:07 PM
1) Yeah, it does make it better. It means more that you've earned it. A hard fought and well planned victory feels so much better.So then an encounter that grants more XP but is more difficult is also the same CR? Because XP is a "larger reward" and encounters that grant more XP can be hard fought, well-planned, and totally earned, and yet XP granted is tied directly to the definition of CR.


2) Dragons can't use coins and art objects and weapons and can't carry potions with them and can't wear armor or most clothing items. And yet they tend to hoard those things anywaysFair enough, but items like cloaks of charisma and giant's belts and magic staffs, wands, etc. are all usable since worn items resize to the wearer (just not reshape, so no armor).


3) May as well say the same thing about demons and devils and devouers and nightshades. They have better stats than you. They get all of their features and spell like abilities "for free". The Fliers are fast and get teleport without error "for free". And their grapples match up to an equivalent sized dragon. Except their buffs aren't sorcerer buffs and are generally not as strong, they usually have less move speed (seriously 100-200 ft from birth) or need to use a standard action which wastes their regular stuff (oh hai teleport) and their grapples are less than a dragon because they will usually have lower strength and/or be smaller than the dragon at equal CR.

An example I just did right quick: Very Old Green Dragon (CR 19, more buff selection, 200' speed, Grapple +48) versus Balor (CR 20, fewer buffs, 90' speed, Grapple +36).


Dragons are strong and awesome, but they're a monster. But monsters get things that players don't. It's just the natural order of things.
Monster != Balanced. A white wyrmling is CR 2, but comes with more immunities, better perception (blindsense, 120' DV, 4x LLV), the ability to create terrain (a la Sunless Citadel), a better melee AND ranged routine, superb kiting, and better HD/saves than any member of a level 2 party.

The Mentalist
2013-09-18, 08:34 PM
A white wyrmling is CR 2, but comes with more immunities, better perception (blindsense, 120' DV, 4x LLV), the ability to create terrain (a la Sunless Citadel), a better melee AND ranged routine, superb kiting, and better HD/saves than any member of a level 2 party.

It's a challenge for an entire party though, it's not meant to be equivalent to a single player.

In theory (emphasis on theory) An at CR fight should take up 20% of the party's resources for the day. We'll assume that dragons being triple treasure are meant to take up 3 fights worth of CR and yes, you can take out a Wyrmling at level 2 with 60% of a day's resources. Easily. You keep talking about how fast this flight speed is and you seem to be forgetting that that's only really useful if the terrain is reasonably clear, even small dragons have terrible maneuverability and have to move to maintain flight so if they're flying they're not full attacking and they have to get reasonably close to breathe and can only breathe so often (1d4+1 as I recall) which if the party spreads out is not as effective, and once they land to full attack they're a reasonably difficult melee monster but not impossible. As for pre-buffing it's CL sucks for its challenge rating so you're not going to have too much trouble with a targeted dispel on the damned thing to eliminate the worst of those buffs and every round it spends buffing is a round that the party is attacking it or buffing themselves. If it grapples the rogue gets free sneak attacks every round which is very nice. All of these pieces fit together that make a monster that is strong but defeatable and for a lot of people that's what they want from dragons, something that if you just want to wade into combat with whatever your usual specialties are you're going to lose, it's a monster that is designed to be able to exploit any possible weakness so you have to cover those weaknesses and play the fight intelligently. Wizards are going to have to stay mobile to avoid taking the full-attack that will probably kill them (or have some sort of miss chance), clerics are going to have to pull out more tricks than just the heal-bot, rogues are going to have maneuver and be a team player with the fighter so that they can keep him getting those massive pools of d6s and the fighter (or more favorably a Warblade) is going to have to do something to make sure the dragon doesn't go after his more vulnerable companions.

That's not to say that this isn't a good project, but some of us are kind of knee-jerking to the fact that you say dragons are bad, dragons are one of the most straight out of the MM interesting mobs in the game.

Also as for Spell selection, pull it from the NPC spellcaster spell selection in the DMG (they still have a spells prepared list right?)

In addition, does anyone know if it's still a rule that dragons can't fly at under 50% health?

TuggyNE
2013-09-18, 08:46 PM
In addition, does anyone know if it's still a rule that dragons can't fly at under 50% health?

Wat? When was that a rule?

The Mentalist
2013-09-18, 09:00 PM
Wat? When was that a rule?

Second Edition, it was in the Draconomicon at least, I think it appeared elsewhere as well but I'd have to check my books again.

"A flying dragon who has lost more than 50% of their health, will glide down to the ground unable to fly. If they lose 75% or more of their health while in flight, they plummet to the ground taking normal fall damage (usually enough to finish them off if they were up high)"

Daedroth
2013-09-19, 03:20 AM
Monster != Balanced. A white wyrmling is CR 2, but comes with more immunities, better perception (blindsense, 120' DV, 4x LLV), the ability to create terrain (a la Sunless Citadel), a better melee AND ranged routine, superb kiting, and better HD/saves than any member of a level 2 party.

A CR 2 monster must be more or less equal to a level 2 character, thats correct. But there are a exception: Boss type monsters. Beholders, Dragons, Big bad infernals, Big good celestials, Big badass giants... they are under-CR'ed on pourpose. They are not supossed to be just an encounter, they are supossed to be the final encounter, the one that makes the party sweat.
If you know the Tome of Frank and K you will know what I am talking about.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 03:29 AM
Daedroth: I do recall. In fact, the solution to that is proposed almost immediately after its discussion.


Awesome Because Its Awesome AKA Player Killers (PKs): Some Monsters are just built to make players cry. Dragons are the classic example, as they are traditionally CRed about two to four lower than they should be, and some other monsters have also been unofficially given the [awesome] subtype, meaning that players will always remember these monsters for being Party Killers. Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category.

Can you see the problem with making these creatures into playable and balanced characters? Character monsters and PKs can be easily modified into playable characters by modifying raw stats...

The modification of raw stats is exactly what I'm going for here.


It's a challenge for an entire party though, it's not meant to be equivalent to a single player.A level 2 character is a CR 2 challenge, thus a CR 2 challenge must be similar to a level 2 character, not superior in every way.


We'll assume that dragons being triple treasure are meant to take up 3 fights worth of CRThis assumption fails. You do not gain triple experience for this fight, and correlating XP to wealth does not work. CR and difficulty must always be correlated to experience because that's how the game was designed.


You keep talking about how fast this flight speed is and you seem to be forgetting that that's only really useful if the terrain is reasonably clear, even small dragons have terrible maneuverability and have to move to maintain flight so if they're flying they're not full attacking and they have to get reasonably close to breathe and can only breathe so often (1d4+1 as I recall) which if the party spreads out is not as effective, and once they land to full attack they're a reasonably difficult melee monster but not impossible. If the ceiling is greater than melee reach, melee is useless because the breath weapon can be used indefinitely while strafing. Every round after getting 1 round of ranged attacks off, the dragon flies at least one ranged increment away (out the door, into the sky, through the trees) and recharges. If it's in a small room, you all got stuck in its breath weapon and are probably already low. Have fun trying to hit its tiny AC plus NatArmor. The dragon will full attack only if there's a single opponent around, which it can isolate if you move out of range. If melee even moves to engage the dragon, it counters with a five foot step and a better full attack routine than a whirling frenzy barbarian.



[dragon tactics]This is a dragon's tactics:
1) If they are close together, breath on them and strafe.
2) If they are more than a move action apart, grapple the weakest target, lift it into the air, and drop it for the killing blow.
3) If anyone goes into the air against you, lol grapple them into the dirt.
4) If your opponents can't full attack you, stand there and take it because you have more HP, better AC, and better saves than all of them.

Dragons not only do everything a party can do, they also do all those things better than any individual member of the part. Parties of the same CR as a dragon will not lose 20% of their resources like they're supposed to--they'll probably lose double or triple that.


That's not to say that this isn't a good project, but some of us are kind of knee-jerking to the fact that you say dragons are bad, dragons are one of the most straight out of the MM interesting mobs in the game.Interesting != Good. If a creature is overpowered (I don't understand why you debate this), does not follow most regular fantasy dragon archetypes (big fire-breathing monsters, instead of small ubertanks with magic that goes to 11), and requires excessive generation to even implement the sample monsters, that is bad design. Dragons are awesome, spellcasting dragons are awesome, and dragons as the quintessential monstrous jack-of-all-trades beast is awesome, but the designers did not do it well. And that's why I'm reworking them.


Also as for Spell selection, pull it from the NPC spellcaster spell selection in the DMG (they still have a spells prepared list right?)This is better, but is also two books and is also not buff spells like dragons want and doesn't come with domains. An NPC spellcaster will prepare like a humanoid (like with attack spells), so as a DM I will end up with a creature not being played as designed without use of all the options after having to reference two seperate books for only feature. We still haven't even chosen the dragon's excessive number of feats yet.

BWR
2013-09-19, 03:34 AM
Pathfinder brings you The Gold Dragon, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/zerzix-s-torture-chamber/bestiary-levels/dragon-classes/gold-dragon-class) along with its silver cousin, which although annoying as far as your first problem is concerned

Notice that the thing is under "Custom Creations", so it's just another homebrew.

Debihuman
2013-09-19, 05:16 AM
Post 1 completion goal: Tomorrow (18 Sept)

Why are dragons bad?
They don't get big fast enough
Huge selection encourages dumpster diving
Too many complicated things (crush attacks, choosing skills)
They get spellcasting oh god why
Color-coded to alignment...
Not playable despite being awesome.
They are good at everything, and totally under-CR'd
Why are there so many age categories? Goodness...


I don't understand why any of this is "bad." It also sounds like you have no idea how to be a creative DM and since you can't figure out the rules, you're apparently a self-avowed poor DM.

What do you mean they don't get "big" fast enough? How fast is fast enough? You can magically age dragons all you want. And you can change anything you want with aging to fit your expectations.

Crush attacks are NOT complicated at all. If it flies and lands on you, you take crushing damage. If it trips and falls prone on you, you take crushing damage. If it runs over you, you take trample damage. If it falls out of the sky and lands on you it depends whether you take crushing damage or falling object damage. If it's alive, I'd rule crushing damage. If it's dead, well treat it like any other object falling on you. There are rules for that. The online SRD makes it a lot easier to check.

How are choosing skills complicated? You do this with every single creature/NPC you make. Doh!

Of course they get spellcasting: THEY'RE DRAGONS! If you want non-spellcasting dragons you make a variant dragon or use a wyvern. How hard is it to make a dragon that's unable to cast spells? Just adjust the CR accordingly. You can make stupid dragons too. Brain damaged dragons or ones that were hit by a feeblemind spell and never recovered. The choices are endless.

Color-coding is flexible too. Who says you can't have a neutral evil gold dragon or a lawful good white one? People have been doing this for over 30 years. This is a facetious argument. Color me confused.


I use a lot of my homebrew rules. I will include provisions for making things your own, but I'll forget (guaranteed). I also don't do math well so I eyeball a lot of things, and formatting drives me crazy.

If you want to be a bad DM, that's your business and I will gladly ignore the result. I'm bad at math too; use a calculator.

Eyeballing things and lack of formatting is just lazy. Thanks for the advanced warning that bad homebrew will be forthcoming.


I'm cool with dragons living thousands of years, but the different categories of dragon need to feel meaningful. The difference between a "juvenile" and "young adult" dragon is hit dice and access to DR/magic--that's not really a different monster, that's an advanced monster with a passive tacked on, and it doesn't deserve a name.

Umm, the difference is not a separate creature, it's a variant on a theme. Sheesh. This is a part of D&D history. Gary Gygax gave everything a new name. Boo on trying to erase that.

Debby

Beelzebub1111
2013-09-19, 05:47 AM
Daedroth:
This is a dragon's tactics:
1) If they are close together, breath on them and strafe.
2) If they are more than a move action apart, grapple the weakest target, lift it into the air, and drop it for the killing blow.
3) If anyone goes into the air against you, lol grapple them into the dirt.
4) If your opponents can't full attack you, stand there and take it because you have more HP, better AC, and better saves than all of them.

1)Carry a bow. or at least a crossbow. If everybody in the party doesn't have one by second level you're doing something wrong...or you're all playing monks
2)In order to move while grappling a target you need improved grab or the snatch feat and you need to take a -20 on your grapple check in order to not count as grappled.
3)See 2.
4)Their AC is high, but still hitable for the party's level compared to the CR. and their touch AC is atrocious. throw an enervation. Yeah they have a lot of hit points, but Ideally there are four of you. The mentioned CR2 white dragon has 22 hit points. that's about 5 hits with a bow (with no bonus to damage) on average to bring it down to zero. Completely possible with a party of four.

And you mentioned before about the Balor vs the Very Old Green Dragon. I'm pretty sure the Balor wins most of the time dude. The magic is only 11th level so the dragon needs a 17 or better to beat the spell resistance. And the Balor can cast a 20th level greater dispel magic at will. The dragon can clumsily fly, but the balor can greater teleport at will. The dragon has a breath weapon, the Balor has Implosion, Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun, and Insanity. The dragon has a high grapple modifier, the balor deals 6d6 points of fire damage to anyone grappling it. The dragon has 5 attacks with its natural weapons, the Balor has 5 with a Vorpal Longsword and 2 with a flaming whip that can entangle on an opposed strength check. The balor has a higher strength. The dragon has dr 15/magic, which the Balor beats. The Balor has Dr 15/Cold Iron and Good, which the Dragon doesn't. The dragon can cast plant growth 1/day, the Balor can summon another Balor

And don't even get me started on Pit Fiends.

Jane_Smith
2013-09-19, 09:26 AM
Yeah... no offense dude but from all of us who have dm'ed for years, all I can see in this thread from you is a lot, and i mean a lot, of lazy-esq excuses. Oh boo hoo they get tons of skills, oh boo hoo, THE LIVING INCARNATIONS OF MAGIC AND SUPERNATURAL POWER IN SCALE AND FLESH HAVE ACCESS TO SPELLS, god forbid they should do more then roar and shoot fire. Your even complaining about the danged flight. So you want stupid, flightless, spell-less dragons with half the age categories? So... you want a cripple wyvern? K. Just don't forget to take out the poison stinger, cause omfg poison to op. So much work to remember! Oh and nerf the skill points to 2+ int bonus/level, of course after making its intelligence 3.

Also, remember that 75% of a dragons hoard is actually copper and silver coins according to the draconomicon. Only the most old and powerful/ancient+ dragons use solid gold coins for bedding. The other 25% is usually fancy trash its found from its territory or found from morons that stumble upon it, and virtually all of that it can't use unless, you do get something that resizes to fit the wearer as you said, but... just because it RESIZES ITSELF does not mean a dragon CAN PUT IT ON. >_> If a dog can't put on a belt, i am going to assume a dragon can't, either.

Jormengand
2013-09-19, 11:16 AM
Notice that the thing is under "Custom Creations", so it's just another homebrew.

As is this entire project. The reason I put it there is because it might give a few good ideas.


just because it RESIZES ITSELF does not mean a dragon CAN PUT IT ON. >_> If a dog can't put on a belt, i am going to assume a dragon can't, either.

Can't quite a few dragons assume human(oid) form, put on the belt, and then be a dragon again?

Mando Knight
2013-09-19, 11:26 AM
If a dog can't put on a belt, i am going to assume a dragon can't, either.

Dogs aren't magical hyper-intelligent flying battle tanks.

Debihuman
2013-09-19, 11:54 AM
If you look at the Dracaonomicon: there are specific magic items that dragons can use on pgs. 82- 83 and other races can use those items too. And page 24 lists the items that dragons can use

There's no reason a dragon can't use any magic for which it has the appropriate body slot. Even animals can wear magic items. See Wild Life article part 2 (relevant info listed below):

Animal Item Slots
Although it's easy to imagine an animal benefiting from magic equipment beyond a simple saddle and a suit of barding, fitting a mount's physiology to the list of item slots available to characters is not an easy task. Try the following variant list of item slots for quadruped animals (and other monsters when appropriate).
• One skull cap or helm
• One pair of lenses or goggles
• One collar
• One saddle blanket or vest
• One saddle or jacket
• One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches
• One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders
• One pair foreleg bracers
• One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
• Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves
• One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts

Debby

nonsi
2013-09-19, 01:02 PM
Post 1 completion goal: Tomorrow (18 Sept)

Why are dragons bad?
They don't get big fast enough
Huge selection encourages dumpster diving
Too many complicated things (crush attacks, choosing skills)
They get spellcasting oh god why
Color-coded to alignment...
Not playable despite being awesome.
They are good at everything, and totally under-CR'd
Why are there so many age categories? Goodness...

What are we going to do about it?
If you make dragons a PC class and balance that class, a lot of these problems go away. You also get a lot of room for modularity if you use PrCs. Also we can make sample builds that don't suck (why picks alertness for a dragon's feats? Seriously...), and revising the benefits so that dragons aren't the Best Chassis Ever can have its uses.

What should I be wary of?
I use a lot of my homebrew rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302209). I will include provisions for making things your own, but I'll forget (guaranteed). I also don't do math well so I eyeball a lot of things, and formatting drives me crazy.

The Dragon PC Class
The concept of a dragon coming right out of an egg and being immediately capable of adventuring is a strange one to me. So dragons do not begin adventuring until they're medium-sized, which corresponds with being young (age 16-25). At this point dragons have achieved human maturity.

Random dragon starting age: 15 + 1d10

{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Maximum Age|Special
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|25|Archetype, bite attack, elemental immunity, natural armor
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|40|Breath weapon, draconic senses
3|+1|+3|+1|+3|55|Claw attacks, draconic immunities
4|+2|+4|+1|+4|70|Archetype 1, +2 Str
5|+2|+4|+1|+4|90|Draconic flight, +2 Con
6|+3|+5|+2|+5|110|Large, +2 Str
7|+3|+5|+2|+5|130|Archetype 2, Damage reduction
8|+4|+6|+2|+6|155|Tail attack, +2 Str
9|+4|+6|+3|+6|180|Archetype 3, frightful presence
10|+5|+7|+3|+7|205|Spell resistance, +2 Con, +2 Str
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Int. NPC dragons are pre-generated with a list of skills at maximum rank.

Archetype: From birth, each dragon is gifted with the same elemental immunity and archetype as its parents. The immunity is detailed later and decide the dragon's primary damage type as well as the environments it favors, but a dragon's archetype determines how it grows in power and what capabilities it has available. The four archetypes below grant dragons class skills that they automatically gain ranks in equal to their dragon level + 3, and continue to grant bonuses thereafter.
Drake: Intimidate, Spot, Survival
True Dragon: Concentration, Spot, Listen
Wyrm: Spellcraft, Concentration, 1 knowledge skill of choice
Sovereign: This the catchall term for dragons. They get individual skills and bonuses (doing five now, but I'm sure there's room for more in "catchall").
Shadow: Hide, Move silently
Artifice: Use Magic Device, Knowledge (Arcana)
Psionic: Autohypnosis, Psicraft, Bluff
Nature: Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Listen
Curses: Intimidate, Bluff, Knowledge (The Planes)



Bite Attack: The dragon begins with a bite attack, dealing 1d8 damage + 1 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier.

Elemental Immunity (Ex): Choose one damage type from (Sonic, Acid, Electricity, Fire, Cold). The dragon gains immunity to damage of that type.

Natural armor: The dragon begins with a +3 natural armor bonus which does not stack with other armor bonuses. This improves by 1 at level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter.

Breath Weapon (Su): At level 2, a dragon gains a breath weapon, either as a line out to 20' per dragon level or a cone out to 10' per dragon level, that deals 1d6/HD damage of the type selected by your elemental immunity.

Draconic Senses (Ex): At level 2, a dragon's eyesight improves. It can see twice as far as a human in shadowy illumination, and gains darkvision out to 60 feet. At level 6, it instead can see four times as far as a human and gains darkvision out to 120 feet.

Claw Attacks: At level 3, a dragon gains 2 claw attacks. It can use these to full attack, making use of one bite or claw as a primary attack, and using other natural weapons as secondary attacks.

Draconic immunities (Ex): At level 3, a dragon is immune to sleep and paralysis effects.

Seems awkward to force a specific class on all dragons.
Wouldn't it be more intuitive to create a Dragon race parallel to the PC races and tack True Dragon / Drake / Wyrm via specialized classes or feat trees, and leave the option of normal classes available ?

also, what does the 'cc' in "cc with breath" and "Roar, or some weak fast cc" stand for ?

Jane_Smith
2013-09-19, 01:28 PM
CC usually stands for "Crowd Control", as in stuns, fears, silence, sleep, stagger, etc. Some way to disable or some way inhibit the enemies actions - not just penalties to rolls (aka, debuff), but preventing them from making some actions entirely (cc).

nonsi
2013-09-19, 01:31 PM
CC usually stands for "Crowd Control", as in stuns, fears, silence, sleep, stagger, etc. Some way to disable or some way inhibit the enemies actions - not just penalties to rolls (aka, debuff), but preventing them from making some actions entirely (cc).

10x :smallcool:

Debihuman
2013-09-19, 01:39 PM
Just to Browse:

You apparently don't understand primary and secondary weapons. Claws come in pairs and can both be primary weapons (or secondary if the dragon's bite is the primary weapon). Your homebrewed rules leave a lot to be desired. Changing feats to odd levels is what Pathfinder does and you'd probably be happier with that system than 3.5.


Bite Attack: The dragon begins with a bite attack, dealing 1d8 damage + 1 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. Is this the creature's primary weapon then?


Claw Attacks: At level 3, a dragon gains 2 claw attacks. It can use these to full attack, making use of one bite or claw as a primary attack, and using other natural weapons as secondary attacks.

This is just goofy. Either the bite or the claws (both of them) are primary weapons. Pick one. How much damage does a claw do? These aren't crabs. They don't have one big claw and one puny one.

Debby

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 01:43 PM
1)Carry a bow. or at least a crossbow. If everybody in the party doesn't have one by second level you're doing something wrong...or you're all playing monksIt's AC is above-standard and it breaths every 2.5 rounds. It will kite out more than 20% of your resources.


2)In order to move while grappling a target you need improved grab or the snatch feat and you need to take a -20 on your grapple check in order to not count as grappled.
3) See 2Dragons favor snatch as a feat, it says so in their creation rules. If the creature isolated is a human, you're almost guaranteed to win even on a -20. It's not like you're grappling anyone dangerous in melee like the fighter.


4)Their AC is high, but still hitable for the party's level compared to the CR. and their touch AC is atrocious. throw an enervation. Yeah they have a lot of hit points, but Ideally there are four of you. The mentioned CR2 white dragon has 22 hit points. that's about 5 hits with a bow (with no bonus to damage) on average to bring it down to zero. Completely possible with a party of four.Five hits with a bow. It has an AC of 14. If you have a bow, a Dex of 18, +2 BAB, and weapon focus (because you just love punishing yourself at being good at anything but bow combat), you have 70% chance to hit, which means you're dragging out on average of three breath attacks, and that hit chance is if the dragon is really dumb and doesn't fly 150' feet away from you as a move action.

If you have a party of ray-wizards throwing out enervations, then of course the dragon will fall down. But that's a party of ray-wizards, and they could just as easily be a party of polymorph wizards that turn into flying trolls and tank the dragon into eternity.


And you mentioned before about the Balor vs the Very Old Green Dragon. I'm pretty sure the Balor wins most of the time dude. The magic is only 11th level so the dragon needs a 17 or better to beat the spell resistance. And the Balor can cast a 20th level greater dispel magic at will. The dragon can clumsily fly, but the balor can greater teleport at will. The dragon has a breath weapon, the Balor has Implosion, Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun, and Insanity. The dragon has a high grapple modifier, the balor deals 6d6 points of fire damage to anyone grappling it. The dragon has 5 attacks with its natural weapons, the Balor has 5 with a Vorpal Longsword and 2 with a flaming whip that can entangle on an opposed strength check. The balor has a higher strength. The dragon has dr 15/magic, which the Balor beats. The Balor has Dr 15/Cold Iron and Good, which the Dragon doesn't. The dragon can cast plant growth 1/day, the Balor can summon another BalorWe're not talking about a fight, we're talking about player challenges. The Green Dragon kites better (his kiting is a move action instead of a standard), deals regular damage better, comes with better buffs and utility and can make encounters favorable, has actually decent damage on his breath weapon (lol 6d6 fire damage at level 20), he has better single-target control (+12 grapple on the balor), and he 150% of the balor's hit points so he can tank more hits. The only real advantage the balor has is that IF he gets the jump on someone, he might be able to dominate them or implode them, but he can't even jump in, shoot a spell, and run away, because even his full sprint action is less than a quarter of dimension door.

Even if we ignore the fact that a Very Old Green Dragon has the capacity to literally change terrain and summon servants from any place with its 6th-level sorcerer spells and triple wealth, the dragon has easier and better-available tactics if randomly thrown into a group of PCs. And we haven't even gotten into dragon sovereigns with access to every druid and cleric spell yet.


Yeah... no offense dude but from all of us who have dm'ed for years, all I can see in this thread from you is a lot, and i mean a lot, of lazy-esq excuses.

[snip incredible rage]Yeah no offense but you appear to be combining:
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/008/2/2/_wallpaper__glorious_pc_gaming_master_race_by_admi ralserenity-d5qvxos.png
and
http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f2/1025708d1364429749-dear-japanese-watchmakers-please-stop-24-hour-subdials-stop-liking-what-i-dont-like.jpg

Let me make this clear: Dragons can look awesome and have tons of things to do in combat without excessive character generation. Dragons can have useful combat options without sorcerer casting. Dragons can be magic flying supertanks without being overpowered for their CR.

And in the same post where you say a dragon is super special and should get everything, you also say that the dragon can't put on a magic resizing cape because a dog couldn't do the same. I mean what? :smallconfused:


Is this the creature's primary weapon then?A creature may choose its primary natural attack from those it has available. If you want to hit somebody, you pick a primary natural attack, and the others are secondary and take -5. If you pick up the Rotting Spittle [Monstrous] feat, you probably want your bite attack as your primary. But if you pick up the Poisoned Nails [Monstrous] feat, you will want to make claws your primary.

When you have four arms, 1 is a primary arm and the other 3 are secondary. I'm trying to make that same application fit to natural weapons because it's more balanced and makes a hell of a lot more sense. Forcing players to pick a bite attack doesn't do anything.


This is just goofy. Either the bite or the claws (both of them) are primary weapons. Pick one. How much damage does a claw do? These aren't crabs. They don't have one big claw and one puny one.Different claw sizes would be different damage. Damage is identical. The reason you aren't allowed to get 2 primary attacks at level 1 is because I feel that's too strong for someone getting +1 hit/lvl, and also not everyone is ambidextrous. But looking at claw damage (1d4 v 1d8, +1/2 StrMod v +1.5StrMod), I believe I may actually allow either to be primary.

Jane_Smith
2013-09-19, 02:07 PM
You say im raging/etc, but am I wrong? your complaining about them having to many options, skills, kiting power, etc. Your virtually hating on every single thing that is been a signature dragon trait sense.. well, ever, even in other d20 game systems with dragons. And most of your issues come from the workload or complexity, your own words, not mine, when handling a monster meant to be a boss/badass/general earth shaking, sky-rendering terror of the medieval fantasy worlds (And others).

You came to a forum and showed your work off, wanting people to give there 2 cents. My 2 cent's is your sound like your complaining way to much about something people have handled just fine for years - but at the end of the day, if your the dm, then do whatever you want with them. But don't come on a forum and ask peoples advice on your work if you ain't ready to receive it.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 02:26 PM
Nonsi: I was thinking of making draconic abilities feats or even magic item slot taxes, but doing so felt like it removed the awesomeness of being a dragon. It feels so much cooler to say "Oh yeah I'm a Dragon 6 / Death Knight 2" than "I'm a dragon Fighter 6 / Knight 2", and feat trees feels terribly restrictive. Perhaps that's just me? Maybe I'll do the item slots thing.

Jane got the definition of CC--I'm planning on making it low saves for high debilitation, so you're more likely to dispatch crowds of mooks (which is what breath weapon is for).

Jane_Smith: I have no problem with you raging, I do it all day every day. That was my semi-subtle attempt at humor.

You appear to be looking at my posts where I say "Dragons do everything, and do it better than you" and you think I'm saying "Dragons shouldn't do anything". I'm OK if you want a dragon that uses magic, that flies, that full attacks, that grapples, but he shouldn't be capable of better magic, better flying, better full attacks, and better grapple than basically any equal-CR creature other than a fullcaster. That's like a factotum on crack.

And again, the complexity is an issue for anyone who wants to put a dragon in their campaign. If you want to write dragons for your games, I am not stopping you, but as a DM you are entitled to have a Red Dragon statblock just as much as much as a Fire Giant statblock, so I the designer have an obligation to write that statblock and make your life easier.

Sky-rending terrors can exist if their CR is judged appropriately. Dragon CR is not judged appropriately.

Jane_Smith
2013-09-19, 02:37 PM
Thats just it though, im saying he should, as has been stated, dragons CR is actually lower then what it should be, by quite a lot -and this was done so on purpose, for a reason-. Its suppose to be a wealth boost to the party, not significantly a "oh, it was CR 30, you get a free level up".

Remember a dragons biggest weakness is action economy. Yes, it can full attack and shread you, or kite one person, but can it handle a wizard using bull's grace/curses on it to drop its dexterity to 0, while the buffed/hasted fighter is chasing it down, while the sneak is taking pot shots, while the cleric is using wall of blades, etc to help control the battlefield, summoning angels/demons/devils, etc for fodder, and each one of those having an action to surround, poke, or otherwise debuff/cc the dragon in some way? Hell don't forget animal companions, cohorts, or followers or hirelings to. Its the literal embodiment of a teamwork fight to take down, you just abuse action economy to win. Your wanting to nerf it in some categories to make it "Balanced"? A dragon? Balanced? I am sorry but I can't comprehend this, not sure if i want to. Hes suppose to be a powerhouse in all regards whos better at everyone in any specialist field of the same level, because he can only perform once a round to bring it to bare.

For example, there use to be a magic: the gathering game on xbox. Changed a lot of the rules, but essenstially every match was "you and the enemy start with 1 mana you can use", every like 60 seconds, you could get an upgrade for more mana, to use more powerful abilities. The VERY last boss/villian of the game however, starts off at MAX 10 mana, when you at 1... he spams the biggest and worst stuff in the game at you every turn. You have to survive, push back, and beat him. Theres only 1 way to do it - the games rules makes it so that when 1 of his monsters attacks another and lives, they reset there march, and go right back to his side of the field and begin to march to you again. So you used spam to take him down - sure, he has a 7 attack, 7 defense DEMON on his his side, but you got 2 goblins. The demon can only attack one, the other will go threw and poke him. That was the general idea.

I know D&D and mtg have VASTLY different rulesets, but the basic premise stays the same - raw stat blocks mean nothing if your limited to 1 turn when the enemies have 4-50 and/or have a way to refresh there numbers, even if you got 5-6 attacks, aoe's, spells, etc. Even if the dragon can summon or has followers, usually the pc's handle them before tackling the dragon. No dm in there right mind is just gonna sick an entire army and a boss on the pc's unless they WANT the pc's to have 0 survival chance or the pc's are acting stupid- so that is entirely up to the dm's control.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 03:20 PM
You are trying to equate "Cannot TPK party" and "Makes an awesome, difficult encounter" to "Is fine for its CR". That does not work. Let me re-explain.

If a creature of any kind is too strong for its CR, it is not fit for a PC class.
A creature is too strong for its CR if, in an encounter with a party of four PCs of the same level as the creature's CR, that party manages to defeat the dragon by expending only 20% of their resources.
If a creature is too strong for its CR, in order to make it a PC class you must nerf it until it is balanced for its CR.
The dragon is too strong for its CR.
More treasure does not make it less difficult.
More planning on the players' parts does not make it less difficult.
Less action economy is already a factor of its difficulty.
Thus the dragon must be nerfed before it is made PC-playable.

Debihuman
2013-09-19, 03:21 PM
Different claw sizes would be different damage. Damage is identical. The reason you aren't allowed to get 2 primary attacks at level 1 is because I feel that's too strong for someone getting +1 hit/lvl, and also not everyone is ambidextrous. But looking at claw damage (1d4 v 1d8, +1/2 StrMod v +1.5StrMod), I believe I may actually allow either to be primary.

Generally damage would be different or you could have one claw be primary and the other secondary even if they use the same die damage since one would add 1/2 damage and one would use full damage not (1.5 Str. Modifier). 1.5 Str modifier is only used if the creature only has 1 attack.

The problem is that you "feel" that 2 primary attacks are too strong but you haven't done the playtesting that determines this. There is no handedness in 3.5 (that's why the designers removed the ambidexterity feat). Creatures get attacks based on limbs and not on BAB as PCs do. What you are doing is comparing apples to oranges.

Debby

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 03:28 PM
The terms "character" and "creature" are used interchangeably in the rulebooks, and are even defined to be the same thing. A character is a creature, and thus should follow the same rules.

Heck, just like in Magic of Incarnum when the totemist binds the Girallon Arms to her Totem Chakra and gets 1 primary claw attack plus 3 secondary claw attacks, the dragon can grow his claws and use 1 as primary, and the 1 as a secondary.

But looking at the damage, I realized 2d4 + Str < 1d8 + 1.5Str, so I made both claws primary weapons together to deter people from always picking bite attack as their primary. Other benefits will come from specializing in on-hit effects (like the +BAB damage houserule), but if you're not using any of those then you can just stick to bite and have a grand old time.

Zaydos
2013-09-19, 03:42 PM
Dragon CR isn't actually that bad. Take the CR 2 white dragon you're talking about. It's breath weapon deals an average of 3.5 damage on a failed save and the party will succeed saves more often than not and it must get within 15-ft. In anything other than an open field (you know like a cave where you're more likely to face them) it cannot get out of bow range and with its need to move in to breath on you it has at least 1 round in which it is within 1 range increment even then. Couple this with an AC of 14, what the Monster Manual defines as the go to AC for CR 2 creatures it's not actually that tough. A Mighty Composite Longbow will take it down in an average of three hits from a 16 Str fighter who has a 55% chance of hitting it assuming a 14 Dex and 45% chance if its further than one range increment away (+5% if the fighter has a Mw bow). The level 2 fighter has lets say 14 Con so 19 hp. The dragon deals less than 1 damage per round (fighter has a 55% chance of making his reflex save and the dragon needs 2.5 rounds between uses) the fighter deals more than 2 each round.

This is a level 2 melee fighter with no feats vs the dragon (which has at least Flyby Attack) and the fighter is winning through archery.

I have used white wyrmlings, they're average encounters at CR 2.

Now you're argument gets better at higher levels; a dragon that is optimized is more powerful than another creature of its CR, but typically remains a valid 20% expenditure against an equally optimized party. You have a party with no casters, go light on the dragon's spells. And Snatch? By CR 12 the fighter can beat a +17 grapple check, the wizard can DDoor out, the cleric can Freedom of Movement out or Righteous Might to beat the dragon if it is using Snatch, and the Rogue can use Escape Artist to escape (ok bad example because no one uses Escape Artist). Or you know it successfully picks up the non-caster and the casters blast it because by the time they are Huge (required for Snatch) casters have outs for grapple. But yes the disparity optimization makes in a dragon's stats is why I don't CR most of mine, because a dragon's CR is largely independent upon the base creature.

That said 3.5 has much better dragon CRs than 3.0.

Also an easy fix for playable dragons: Reduce their LA by 3 unless they have a save or lose breath weapon. I tried it with a red dragon once and it was weaker in direct combat ability than the Crusader of the same level (I built both to equalize optimization) but had a variety of abilities that allowed it to keep up in the party of a wizard (who did next to nothing but toy with his Rod of Wonders), a crusader, it, and I believe a non-early entry arcane hierophant (the only theurge who is still tier 1). This was ECL 9. Tried it with a Shadow Dragon in a gestalt game too, it was a little strong (as expected from gestalt) and I'd advice dropping Shadow Dragon AC by 3 to keep it in line with other dragons'.

Edit: tldr: A 2nd level fighter with a bow beats a strafing white dragon and loses less than half his health doing it. A high level dragon has the same CR problems as a wizard npc in that it all depends upon how you build them. Dragon LA is generally stupid past 5th level except on Brass and Silver dragons.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 04:04 PM
I'm not going to argue your example, because anecdotes don't win fights. Suffice it to say that dragons can wreck parties, BUT they still have some specific weaknesses (especially at low levels).

I'll admit that the disparity is way smaller at low levels. That dragon could probably be taken down with 20% of resources from an optimized or tailored (e.g. Might longbow dex/str fighter). I'd start reliably adding +2 CR to anything young at around CR5.

And LA is just an insult to everybody...

NosferatuZodd
2013-09-19, 04:24 PM
An alternative to all this bickering business would be using a system that's not clunky as **** with rules upon rules and numbers.


Strands of FATE?

Owrtho
2013-09-19, 05:29 PM
You are trying to equate "Cannot TPK party" and "Makes an awesome, difficult encounter" to "Is fine for its CR". That does not work. Let me re-explain.

If a creature of any kind is too strong for its CR, it is not fit for a PC class.
A creature is too strong for its CR if, in an encounter with a party of four PCs of the same level as the creature's CR, that party manages to defeat the dragon by expending only 20% of their resources.
If a creature is too strong for its CR, in order to make it a PC class you must nerf it until it is balanced for its CR.
The dragon is too strong for its CR.
More treasure does not make it less difficult.
More planning on the players' parts does not make it less difficult.
Less action economy is already a factor of its difficulty.
Thus the dragon must be nerfed before it is made PC-playable.

While I have other issues with some of your arguments, I will point out the most glaring one I've noticed. Aside from what I assume is a typo here (the bit about it being too strong if the party can beat it using only 20% of their resources), you are working off the mistaken assumption a level 2 character is a CR 2 encounter. This is not correct. As you noted, a CR 2 creature (or one of any CR) should cause a party of 4 characters the same level to use 20% of their resources fighting it. A single character with a player race and class levels of a level equal to the party will not do so unless there is a notable disparity in optimization or external factors notably favour said single character.

Any creature should be stronger than any single pc of the same level as the creature's CR (this is not taking into account high optimization) and as such would need to be nerfed to be playable as a character of that level.

It's also worth noting that generally PCs don't just randomly encounter dragons, but rather tend to hunt them down for quests and such, and as part of that are generally going to try to face it in an area that doesn't blatantly favour the dragon.

I would also suggest that while responding to people's arguments, at least those referencing specific examples or situations that you limit your replies to that specific point to relevant abilities. For earlier someone was discussing the tactics you had stated dragons can use in reference to the CR 2 dragon fight you had brought up and noted snatch would be needed for one to be usable. You're response that snatch is on the dragon suggested feat list was irrelevant to that discussion given that a CR 2 dragon does not qualify for snatch and thus cannot take it. While admittedly in this kind of discussions it is easy to get mixed up on just what you are replying to, avoiding mixing up examples or changing the premise can help to keep discussions civil and less aggravating.

The debate as to the balance level of dragons in RAW aside, the premise of making dragons playable is not a bad one. While I've seen many attempts in the past, another is always worth having since they allow different focusses and provide more options or balance levels. That said, the choice of half BAB seems a bit odd given dragons are generally depicted as fairly effective in melee. Still it is your class, though I would at least suggest having one of the less magically inclined archetypes changing it to full. On the issue of multiple claws and primary natural weapons, most monsters if they have two claws or similar will treat both or neither as a primary natural attack.

Owrtho

Network
2013-09-19, 05:32 PM
I was thinking of making draconic abilities feats or even magic item slot taxes, but doing so felt like it removed the awesomeness of being a dragon. It feels so much cooler to say "Oh yeah I'm a Dragon 6 / Death Knight 2" than "I'm a dragon Fighter 6 / Knight 2", and feat trees feels terribly restrictive. Perhaps that's just me? Maybe I'll do the item slots thing.
What's wrong with feat trees? Draconic feats are probably one of the best ideas mentioned thus far in the thread, and you immediately decide that feat trees are too restrictive (despite the fact that they balance the game better).

You are trying to equate "Cannot TPK party" and "Makes an awesome, difficult encounter" to "Is fine for its CR". That does not work. Let me re-explain.

If a creature of any kind is too strong for its CR, it is not fit for a PC class.
A creature is too strong for its CR if, in an encounter with a party of four PCs of the same level as the creature's CR, that party manages to defeat the dragon by expending only 20% of their resources.
If a creature is too strong for its CR, in order to make it a PC class you must nerf it until it is balanced for its CR.
The dragon is too strong for its CR.
More treasure does not make it less difficult.
More planning on the players' parts does not make it less difficult.
Less action economy is already a factor of its difficulty.
Thus the dragon must be nerfed before it is made PC-playable.
Arguments 1 and 2 are invalid. It doesn't matter if the monster is under-CRed, given that PCs don't even have CR in the first place. Even though you hate LA, it already solves the issue.

Edit : ninja'ed by Owrtho.

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 05:38 PM
If you don't think a level 2 player is supposed to be a CR 2 encounter, there is nothing for you in this thread. That's the premise of the community monster classes and all NPC encounter design ever, and you just can't say it's wrong. That's as core to this work as the existence of tiers.

Network
2013-09-19, 05:53 PM
If you don't think a level 2 player is supposed to be a CR 2 encounter, there is nothing for you in this thread. That's the premise of the community monster classes and all NPC encounter design ever, and you just can't say it's wrong. That's as core to this work as the existence of tiers.
I don't know what you mean here, but I'll have to repeat myself. A CR 2 wyrmling white dragon has an ECL of 5. Therefore, a PC of that race must have the versatility of a 5th-level character.

You're using the fallacious argument that if a given level implies a given CR, then a CR of 2 implies a level of 2, but the argument is wrong, because PCs use ECL, not CR.

eftexar
2013-09-19, 06:18 PM
Honestly this kind of arguing is why I haven't started a new thread in a while.
Instead of assisting me in my goal, or telling me how I'm doing it wrong, recently posters have instead focused on convincing me why my goal shouldn't be a goal in the first place or why my reason for having that goal is invalid.

The person heading any thread is the one attempting to accomplish some goal or another. Specifically this thread operator, Just to Browse, wants to recreate dragons as a PC viable class.

Whether or not you, which I'm using ambiguously here, agree with his assessment of CR and LA is, in this particular case, arguing about it is a waste of time for a few reasons:


CR is irrelevant to the overall goal. Because classes are centered around ECL, and not CR, neither side needs to agree on what CR is. The class can be built without mutual agreement on the subject.

The thread operator doesn't agree with a different assessment. If you have presented both your argument and your counter-argument, and the operator still doesn't agree, arguing further is a waste of time unless you believe he has misunderstood the meaning behind your words.
It is unlikely you will convince Just to Browse otherwise and you will only frustrate yourself trying to understand why he doesn't agree with you. He is just as adamant about his position, as you are about yours, and is as likely to budge as you are.

I, and likely others, want to see a functioning dragon class and the more we argue about CR here the more likely that won't happen (as frustration builds up on both sides, possibly causing the thread to implode).

CR and LA, including what their purpose is and how they function (if at all), are already hotly debated subjects. Nobody can honestly insist their view of it without a debate.
For example, I think that CR is a useless measure of power. It assumes a party with tier 1 characters, which it notes in the DMG (specifically referencing the Cleric), doesn't properly factor in extingent circumstances, and causes many novice DMs to just go with the charts instead of thinking about what his specific group of PCs can handle. Therefore, both assumptions are wrong in their entirety. (See what I did there :smallcool:)

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 06:25 PM
No, you are using ECL and assuming it's a useful system, when in fact it is completely broken. Since the DMG says that a player of level X is supposed to be a challenge of CR X, we can do the following:

CR 2 dragon has ECL 5. If the CR 2 dragon is played by a character, without any changes it is now CR 5. Without changing the details of the dragon at all, you are bringing its CR up by 3, and that's ridiculous. I assumed everyone in this thread would ignore ECL because it's non-functional and that's the basis of all the community monster classes, and since the next approximation is CR (endorsed by the DMG), I used that instead.

Please don't try to argue that ECL or useful. That's been hashed out a hundred times or more--Wizards did their LA and ECL assignment worse than they did the CW Samurai. ECL is just such a bad metric for measuring anything that it should be immediately discarded. If you don't agree, then like I said this thread offers nothing to you. Enjoy your dragons.

eftexar: That's like 400 characters over my signature limit. Damn it man.

ShadowFireLance
2013-09-19, 06:41 PM
What I think Dragons should be:

(warning, Some might be large images:)

http://mayhemandmuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/A-dramatic-digital-fantasy-painting-of-dragon-and-giant-eagles-by-Singapore-computer-artist-Sandara.jpg
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=878855&d=1263442552
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ud_hTYby_qw/UFkl7zidnlI/AAAAAAAAADM/80lRUjeMiOo/s1600/Zhaitan+the+Elder+Dragon.png
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lii4pjHVoN1qdsqmvo1_500.jpg

My Ideas to fix them:

1: Remove Dragon's spellcasting.
My Reasoning:
They should have protective Spells built in, naturally, and offensive based spells timed with a recharge, to stimulate the ability to cast. Nothing PREVENTS them from learning how to cast, just that they don't normally have such things.

2: Remove any Dragon below Adult
Reasoning:
...What else, then to make them big. The Adults should be Gargantuan, and anything above that, Colossal.
The Younger ones should be more akin to Drakes than anything, Not quite intelligent, and not quite powerful. Never encountered anywhere other than around the mother.

3: Add Fluff based abilities
My reasoning:
Dragons should be movers and shakers of nations, more akin to Godzilla than..Well, anything.
Mayhaps People and beings immune to flame, fighting say, a Red or Flame Dragon, are now vulnerable?

Thats all I've got.

eftexar
2013-09-19, 07:09 PM
Perhaps I did get a bit too verbose Just to Browse, but I tend to do that when I'm irritated. Some of the last few projects I needed help with were duds because people were too busy trying to be right (rather than actually help me).

Anyways, I suppose I'll actually PEACH your dragon class instead of just taking up metaphorical space:

While I like how you are starting off, I think you need to note the rules for entering the class. I would think it would be restricted to character creation and would replace any racial features you might already have.
And is this a monster class; aka do I have to take levels straight through it's entire progression?

I like scaling numbers, but not scaling features. What I mean by that is the invocations and spellcasting seem out of place here. Not only that, but they overshadow any other kinds of abilities. Rather, I think you should look at monsters of a particular theme and give them per day 'powers' like demons.
For example, you could rip some ideas from the monsters and classes, in ToM, for the Shadow Dragon. Bend Perspective, Flicker, and Warp Spell, along with the Hide in Plain Sight or Shadow Pocket abilities, on a Dragon would make for a terrifying encounter.
Can you imagine the look on your players' faces when a gargantuan beast the size of a mountain appears out of nowhere only to dissapear again?

Natural attacks are always difficult to balance. If I were you I wouldn't follow their normal rules.
Instead give the dragon(s) all of their natural attacks at the start and limit them to BaB as if they were manufactured weapons and interchangeable during a full attack. The Monk's unarmed strike is already precedence for this sort of thing.

I'd say to give it medium BaB and key the saves off of the type of dragon. Fortitude, for example, just doesn't speak Shadow Dragon to me.

Owrtho
2013-09-19, 09:43 PM
Honestly this kind of arguing is why I haven't started a new thread in a while.
Instead of assisting me in my goal, or telling me how I'm doing it wrong, recently posters have instead focused on convincing me why my goal shouldn't be a goal in the first place or why my reason for having that goal is invalid.

The person heading any thread is the one attempting to accomplish some goal or another. Specifically this thread operator, Just to Browse, wants to recreate dragons as a PC viable class.


On the whole I agree that the argument is not really related or conducive to goal of the thread. That said, it is in part the fault of Just to Browse that the argument occurred as his thread title and his opening post (especially before it was edited to include the initial version of the class) came across less as a plan to make a dragon class and more as an issue with dragons being imbalanced and something needing to be done to fix them. This caused people to start discussing what was and wasn't imbalanced since determining that would be the first thing needed when trying to make an appropriate fix, rather than people critiquing the class that had yet to be posted aside from a few line suggesting a class as a possible fix and some thoughts about doing so. Even after these were later posted the debate had already begun and thus continues. I myself have found that generally when posting classes or other homebrew that these boards tend to do quite well at providing constructive criticism.

That said, I will address one further point of the debate before focussing on the class in question.


No, you are using ECL and assuming it's a useful system, when in fact it is completely broken. Since the DMG says that a player of level X is supposed to be a challenge of CR X, we can do the following:

CR 2 dragon has ECL 5. If the CR 2 dragon is played by a character, without any changes it is now CR 5. Without changing the details of the dragon at all, you are bringing its CR up by 3, and that's ridiculous. I assumed everyone in this thread would ignore ECL because it's non-functional and that's the basis of all the community monster classes, and since the next approximation is CR (endorsed by the DMG), I used that instead.

Please don't try to argue that ECL or useful. That's been hashed out a hundred times or more--Wizards did their LA and ECL assignment worse than they did the CW Samurai. ECL is just such a bad metric for measuring anything that it should be immediately discarded. If you don't agree, then like I said this thread offers nothing to you. Enjoy your dragons.


First, from what I recall there is one line in the DMG that suggests a player of level X is CR X, and it specifically references a wizard at I think level 4. Almost everyone I have ever spoken with (both online and offline) regarding this considers the line erroneous considering almost all monsters and ELC fail to support it.

If one noes not believe that players of a given ELC are thus the equivalent CR, your second point about ELC being ridiculous is invalid, as the CR does not change by a player being in control of the creature.

As for only people interested in monster classes coming here, that is unlikely the case as the thread title fails to mention this is a thread for a monster class. Instead it is more likely to attract those interested in trying to fix dragons in general.

Also, the entire premise of monster classes does not operate on the idea of ELC being wrong. ELC is not inherently bad, and LA is at lower amounts (1 or 2) generally manageable if well decided. It is however an imperfect quick fix for a more complex problem. Monster classes work to more appropriately distribute abilities amongst levels while adjusting them as needed to work for a player character. This does not mean they reject the idea of ELC. For one thing many are balanced to reach the full of the monster's abilities at the point it would be the ELC of the monster from its stat block.


Anyway, for class review:
First, I'd note that it may be worth increasing the skills to 4+int. 2+ Int is considered to be the realm of classes with Int as the primary stat (mostly primary casters). While you do have some Int focused archetypes, if the goal is to open up dragons to other play styles such as a brute fighter type dragon it would be worth changing that.

The basis otherwise seems fine so far. As for some of the things noted by eftexar:


While I like how you are starting off, I think you need to note the rules for entering the class. I would think it would be restricted to character creation and would replace any racial features you might already have.
And is this a monster class; aka do I have to take levels straight through it's entire progression?

I'd agree with this. These things along with the issue of the class only being available at first level should be noted.


I like scaling numbers, but not scaling features. What I mean by that is the invocations and spellcasting seem out of place here. Not only that, but they overshadow any other kinds of abilities. Rather, I think you should look at monsters of a particular theme and give them per day 'powers' like demons.
For example, you could rip some ideas from the monsters and classes, in ToM, for the Shadow Dragon. Bend Perspective, Flicker, and Warp Spell, along with the Hide in Plain Sight or Shadow Pocket abilities, on a Dragon would make for a terrifying encounter.
Can you imagine the look on your players' faces when a gargantuan beast the size of a mountain appears out of nowhere only to dissapear again?

On this I disagree. Given the goal is to make a generic dragon class, the selection of spells or invocations allows differentiation of the different types of dragon, and prevents the need of making a large amount of separate lists for each type of dragon desired. That said, I'd suggest possibly reducing the number of invocations known and possibly also reducing the number of spellslots for the spells casting archetype. I'd also suggest eventually allowing the next level of invocations rather than limiting them purely to least. Just make them gain access later than a primary invocation using class and make sure they get less invocations overall. As for such abilities for a shadow dragon, that can be done by selecting those spells already (provided the level is high enough, though hide in plain sight would need to be done with the invisibility spell).


Natural attacks are always difficult to balance. If I were you I wouldn't follow their normal rules.
Instead give the dragon(s) all of their natural attacks at the start and limit them to BaB as if they were manufactured weapons and interchangeable during a full attack. The Monk's unarmed strike is already precedence for this sort of thing.

This may work. The main issue with natural attacks like this though is that it can be more difficult for the dragon to 'upgrade' his weapons that say a human using a weapon who simply needs to acquire a better one. That said, I suspect there are rules somewhere for weapons designed to be used on claws or bites, and even without that there is the option of enchanting them still.


I'd say to give it medium BaB and key the saves off of the type of dragon. Fortitude, for example, just doesn't speak Shadow Dragon to me.

On this I'd partially agree. Allow archetypes to adjust the saves and BAB of the dragon. Thus allowing things like 'frail' but powerful caster dragons, and strong durable fighting dragons with little in the way of magical talent.

It may also be worth having some way to allow dragons effect type breath weapons rather than just elemental ones.

Owrtho

Just to Browse
2013-09-19, 10:04 PM
I don't understand--"what I'm doing about it" explicitly calls out how I'm doing a thing and not other people. If the thread were titled "let's fix dragons" then I could see how people might get confused. But I'm literally telling people that I'm doing some homebrew that fixes dragons the way I want it. It's basically the exact same as a fighter fix thread, and those are certainly not supposed to be places where people argue if the fighter is an OK class to fix--you accept the premise and you look at the homebrew.

And let me give you a nice quote straight out of the DMG:


An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level. Thus an 8th-level sorcerer is an 8th-level encounter. As a rule of thumb, doubling the number of foes adds 2 to the Encounter Level. Therefore, two 8th-level fighters are an EL 10 encounters. A party of four NPC 8th-level characters is an EL 12 encounter.

That's not even ambiguous. Somehow, without changing any sort of skill selection, attribute arrays, feat choices, nothing at all, a white wyrmling can go from a CR 2 encounter (as played by the DM) to a level 5 character (for the player) using ECL, which translates to a CR 5 encounter (as played by the DM using the "NPC level"). So ECL and CR fundamentally do not work, because they measure effectively the same output and produce vastly different numbers.

On the fix: While archetypes do outshine other things, I'm at a bit of a loss as how to model those elder dragons that use arcane magic. The invocations I feel more OK with because they scale much worse than spells. But how do you model the advancement of an enormous ancient wyrm with high intelligence and lots of big spells, but simultaneously high physical stats and colossal/gargantuan size? I was planning on giving them the weaker sorcerer casting, and as they started getting access to really strong spells (4th+) they would take the wyrm class which is basically "Be a dragon, +1 spellcasting / lvl".

Also, I know people like having spells and invocations, so it's nice to have those as options. Lesser invocations come at Archetype 2, and I'm adding more options (spells per day, total invocations) because the stuff the dragon gets (or at least the level they get it at) is so high that I wanted to hand them some horizontal power to compensate. Invocations have always felt pretty weak (with the exception of baleful utterance and some of those Dark ones).

NEW! On sizes: I'm realizing that dragons have a space of 30 feet at colossal size... which is something like the length of a school bus. That goes so much at odds with the images of dragons that pop up in my head that I might have to start with size revisions before I even go into dragons at all.

I'm thinking doubling space at every size category is an OK way to start... so large is 10' (like normal) but colossal hits 80', which is closer to big buildings. I may also need a section on monsters as terrain...

eftexar
2013-09-19, 10:07 PM
I've just had some rough luck with 'critiques' the past few months for some reason and didn't feel like standing by and watching it happen to someone else as well.
Instead of evaluating my last couple of sets of homebrew, and whether or not I was taking the right approach, people were too busy bickering over the accuracy of my thread title, non-existent spell lists, me referencing page numbers, and demanding I list every rule in the DMG.


That aside, unfortunately I don't think there are any mundane items for enhancing natural attacks, though I don't think a Bracer of Magic Fang would be too hard to whip up. The Draconomicon also the Jaws of the Dragon which is kind of handy.
Bettery yet something like an Ancestral Weapon where you sacrifice gold to enchant yourself, as a class feature, could solve that.

While I can see why you, Orthwo, might think progressive abilities would be better it does concern me that not every dragon, or build, would have them. We risk getting too generic otherwise. That being the case, what about dragons who don't have that kind of progression?

I think Just to Browse, if he does keep progressive abilities, needs to be careful in balancing them with non-progressive ones. I suppose for non-spell/invocation/etc variants something set up like Bardic Music could work.

Network
2013-09-20, 07:58 PM
That aside, unfortunately I don't think there are any mundane items for enhancing natural attacks, though I don't think a Bracer of Magic Fang would be too hard to whip up. The Draconomicon also the Jaws of the Dragon which is kind of handy.
Bettery yet something like an Ancestral Weapon where you sacrifice gold to enchant yourself, as a class feature, could solve that.
Amulets of Mighty Fists (DMG) and Necklaces of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) are magical items that improve natural weapons. They aren't cheap, but they get the job done.

nonsi
2013-09-21, 01:52 AM
I've just had some rough luck with 'critiques' the past few months for some reason and didn't feel like standing by and watching it happen to someone else as well.
Instead of evaluating my last couple of sets of homebrew, and whether or not I was taking the right approach, people were too busy bickering over the accuracy of my thread title, non-existent spell lists, me referencing page numbers, and demanding I list every rule in the DMG.

I totally get where you're coming from here.
I too post scarcely because of that.
While I recognize and appreciate constructive advice such as "don't list skills by exclusion, because then people won't know if Iaijatsu Focus or Martial Lore are included" or "it's not core, so don't count on people having access to that resource", I can't understand for the life of me why people won't PEACH unless they see BAB & Saves columns, even though everyone with 3 days worth of forum mileage knows exactly what good/average/poor BAB and good/poor saves mean. Or why people insist you re-describe features from the PHB, such as Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision etc. Like if you don't bust your hands formatting, then you don't care enough about your homebrew to deserve PEACHing.

NosferatuZodd
2013-09-21, 11:44 AM
Nonsi the reason it's like that is because that's the best format for comprehending a class, it's also how a class is always formatted in an actual book.

No book is just going to say "BAB: 3/4"

nonsi
2013-09-21, 01:19 PM
Nonsi the reason it's like that is because that's the best format for comprehending a class, it's also how a class is always formatted in an actual book.

No book is just going to say "BAB: 3/4"

My point is that this is a platform for exchanging ideas, not writing up commercial material.
I sincerely hope your're not saying that you find it harder to figure out a class if it has two spec lines for BAB & saves instead of four vertical columns, or that you're not sure what I mean by "Darkvision" when I add "PHB, page 14, bottom right", or link to the SRD.

NosferatuZodd
2013-09-21, 02:19 PM
It's not about commercial content, but if you want someone to honestly look at your class via P.E.A.C.H. You're going to need to format it like any other class in the book.

Honestly, is it that difficult to do the BAB and such? It's lazy to do otherwise.

The Mentalist
2013-09-21, 03:40 PM
Now that there's some material here to actually work with. My comments in Bold


Post 1 completion goal: Tomorrow (18 Sept)

The Dragon PC Class
The concept of a dragon coming right out of an egg and being immediately capable of adventuring is a strange one to me. So dragons do not begin adventuring until they're medium-sized, which corresponds with being young (age 16-25). At this point dragons have achieved human maturity.

Random dragon starting age: 15 + 1d10

{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Maximum Age|Special
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|25|Archetype, bite attack, elemental immunity, natural armor
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|40|Breath weapon, draconic senses
3|+1|+3|+1|+3|55|Claw attacks, draconic immunities
4|+2|+4|+1|+4|70|Archetype 1, +2 Str
5|+2|+4|+1|+4|90|Draconic flight, +2 Con
6|+3|+5|+2|+5|110|Large, +2 Str
7|+3|+5|+2|+5|130|Archetype 2, Damage reduction
8|+4|+6|+2|+6|155|Tail attack, +2 Str
9|+4|+6|+3|+6|180|Archetype 3, frightful presence
10|+5|+7|+3|+7|205|Spell resistance, +2 Con, +2 Str
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Int. NPC dragons are pre-generated with a list of skills at maximum rank.

Archetype: From birth, each dragon is gifted with the same elemental immunity and archetype as its parents. The immunity is detailed later and decide the dragon's primary damage type as well as the environments it favors, but a dragon's archetype determines how it grows in power and what capabilities it has available. The four archetypes below grant dragons class skills that they automatically gain ranks in equal to their dragon level + 3, and continue to grant bonuses thereafter.
Drake: Intimidate, Spot, Survival
True Dragon: Concentration, Spot, Listen
Wyrm: Spellcraft, Concentration, 1 knowledge skill of choice
Sovereign: This the catchall term for dragons. They get individual skills and bonuses (doing five now, but I'm sure there's room for more in "catchall").
Shadow: Hide, Move silently
Psionic: Autohypnosis, Psicraft, Bluff
Nature: Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Listen
Curses: Intimidate, Bluff, Knowledge (The Planes)



Archetypes, cool. Let's see how they turn out.

Bite Attack: The dragon begins with a bite attack, dealing 1d8 damage + 1 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. They can be used in a full attack with the dragon's other natural weapons--the dragon may choose to use this as his primary weapon during a full attack.

Just as a warning not being proficient does not stop you from gaining proficiency, you could end up with a dragon dipping fighter for the proficiencies and running a not at all bad character just due to the fact that melee almost always benefits from large size, especially as early as these guys get it. [More to come on that subject later] but so far, Bite attack, no problem.

Elemental Immunity (Ex): Choose one damage type from (Sonic, Acid, Electricity, Fire, Cold). The dragon gains immunity to damage of that type.

Giving away sonic resistance is a rarity, also a free immunity at level one is a NICE reason to dip this class.

Natural armor: The dragon begins with a +3 natural armor bonus which does not stack with other armor bonuses. This improves by 1 at level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter.

And plus 3 NA off the bat too. Considering that armor is going to get expensive for these guys rather quickly I can understand that.

Now the dragon gets to be more useful as a tank. Good thing too, because they can't wear regular armor

They can actually, they can get barding made for them at double cost for non human and then an additional doubling for each size above medium (this is only for base armor cost not enchantments)

Breath Weapon (Su): At level 2, a dragon gains a breath weapon, either as a line out to 20' per dragon level or a cone out to 10' per dragon level, that deals 1d6/HD damage of the type selected by your elemental immunity.

There is literally no reason not to take sonic as your energy immunity as basically nothing even has a resistance let alone immunity to it..

This breath weapon area scales in area because combats scale in size. At level 1, you're fighting skeletons and goblins on the 20' landings in the Sunless Citadel, and at level 20 you're flying over armies. Might have to scale quadratically even... The damage is OK for clearing rats out, but I promise it will get better.

A 200' cone is more than sufficient by level 20, especially when some of them are going to be stacking warlock invocations and crowd control abilities onto it, it will lock down an entire battlefield. Most battles will never need that much area, even at level 20.

Draconic Senses (Ex): At level 2, a dragon's eyesight improves. It can see twice as far as a human in shadowy illumination, and gains darkvision out to 60 feet. At level 6, it instead can see four times as far as a human and gains darkvision out to 120 feet.

Cool. Nothing drastic.

Claw Attacks: At level 3, a dragon gains 2 claw attacks that deal 1d4 + 1/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. They can be used in a full attack with the dragon's other natural weapons--the dragon may choose to use them as his primary weapon during a full attack.

Okay. Cool. Nothing terribly odd or special about it.

Now the dragon can make full attacks. This should cement it in the espoused role of "stand in front of all the bad guys, wail on a dude, breath fire".

You'd actually be much better served by being able to use that bite multiple times than sticking what's basically two daggers on the end of an attack.

Draconic immunities (Ex): At level 3, a dragon is immune to sleep and paralysis effects.

Not an issue.

Archetype 1: Depending on the archetype that the dragon was born into, it gains an ability listed here:
Roar (Drake): As a move action, a drake can unleash a mighty roar. All creatures within 60 feet of the drake must either make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the dragon's HD + the dragon's Constitution modifier) or become shaken, or make a Fortitude save (DC 8 + 1/2 the dragon's HD + the dragon's Constitution modifier) or become deafened. The effects last for 2 minutes, or an hour if they fail the save by 5 or more. Roar is not a fear effect.

That's 20 rounds of fear. 20 rounds, that effect is going to last the entire fight and it doesn't even get immunities to prevent it. You do know that fear stacks right? (See Here) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_feareffect&alpha=) and getting something that you can happily spam every round at low levels to leave your enemies cowering without giving up attacks really is going to have an effect on gameplay.

Invocations (Least) (True Dragon): The true dragon may select 3 least invocations that it knows (add more links to homebrew invocations here), as per the warlock or dragonfire adept. These invocations can be taken from either list, but the dragon cannot choose blast shape invocations. Eldritch essences affect his breath weapon. The true dragon then gains 1 additional least invocation per level until his .

"Eldritch essences affect his breath weapon" With the massive size of that breath weapon, this becomes problematic. I say again that you are locking down and effecting an entire battlefield with room to spare at higher levels.

Sorcerous Power (Wyrm): The wyrm gains casting as per a sorcerer of its dragon level - 3, but bonus spell slots, minimum attribute required to cast spells, and save DCs are based on Intelligence. The wyrm additionally gains an 3 bonus spell slots of each spell level he has access to.

So it's two spell levels behind (kind of sucks, but it gets spell slots for days. It never gets 9ths so that's one hurtle avoided but you end up with the Mystic Theurge problem of "Are my spells powerful enough to be effective" (As a sorcerer if you're careful about spell selection that answer is always yes), this admittedly has the back-up plan of being a decent melee monster but those bonus spell-slots kind of jump out at me as ugly, arbitrary, and inelegant (and yes I know that that's how many bonus slots a Focused Specialist Wizard gets)

Unique (Sovereign): Each sovereign gets an additional ability, which references the Archetype Number. It's the number in the ability title here (1), and will increase to (2) and (3) later.
[spoiler][list]
Shadow: Shadow dragons can see out to their darkvision range in all forms of darkness--even magical darkness. Shadow dragons can cast deeper darkness at-will, but may only have one instance active at a time.
This is basically a lock-down/gain concealment in all combat; even better if your companions all have alternate methods of avoiding darkness (which is not a major challenge to gain.)

Psionic: Psionic dragons can passively detect the presence of intelligence within 60 feet of them as if they constantly benefited from 1 round of observation using detect thoughts. They cannot pinpoint the location from which the thought comes, but they can determine roughly how many minds there are, whether those minds are hostile (not to the dragon specifically, but thinking hostile thoughts), and if those minds are familiar.
The effect can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Opponents may also willfully resist the ability for an hour at a time by making a successful will save (DC 14 + 1/2 the dragon's hit die + the dragon's intelligence modifier). Will saves may only be repeated once per hour, and the dragon notices a creature that fails its save.

Mindsight made complicated? Why not just use Mindsight here? It would fit perfectly and it saves all of the dice rolling I foresee here as half of the opponents succeed their will saves.

In addition, psionic dragons can sense opponents attacking them. They get a +2 insight bonus to AC and saves against any opponent affected by their passive thought detection.

Ahh, that's why not Mindsight. I still think that Mindsight and a +2 to AC (saves is debatable, maybe Reflex saves) would be less mechanically clunky.

These are both [Mind-Affecting] effect.