[3.5] Warforged, the "Death And Dying" variant, and the "Reserve Points" variant

[Maginomicon]

Warforged have a special condition called "inert" that replaces the dying condition.



A warforged cannot heal lethal damage naturally.

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Unlike other constructs, warforged are subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, death effects, and necromancy effects

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A warforged responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A warforged with 0 hit points is disabled, as with a living creature. He can take only a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than –10, a warforged is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and cannot perform any actions. An inert warforged does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, however, as with a living creature that has become stable.

Now, consider a scenario where the following "official" variants are used together:

Death And Dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/deathAndDying.htm)
Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm)


What I want to know is:

Should a warforged have / be able to use Reserve Points?
Would a warforged that's rendered inert from damage be essentially immortal unless a massive amount of damage was dealt in the felling blow or a coup de grace was used?
Would a warforged that's gained immunity to critical hits (such as through warforged juggernaut) be essentially-unkillable by all normal mundane means?
If the answer to #1 is yes, wouldn't that mean that one minute after you K.O. a warforged, unless you kill it entirely, wouldn't it get right back up one minute later assuming it still has Reserve Points left?


What I don't want to hear is:
How or why these variants shouldn't be used (together or separately).

[RedWarlock]

1. Sure, why not.

2. Kind of, but that's part of the point of the inert ability.

3. Definitely not. I'd say that the death-save is still viable, and an active exception to the standard about crit-immunes ignoring Fort.

4. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps being inert means that until they are repaired by an external effect, their reserve points are also inert.

Mixing in Warforged rules-weirdness with two lesser-known UA variants is troublesome, but not impossible. Just consider the impact that each difference and alteration grants, and if it makes them too powerful. It should be a neutral trade-off.

The death save reminds me of the 4e death saves, so the WF counterpart for 4e is probably a good example to go by. (in 4e, the death save needs three fails to die, but 10+ succeeds on an unmodified d20, and a WF can choose to treat any result as a 10.) In this case, the WF still makes the save when they get hit, but might just automatically stabilize when they make the save on their turn, granting them the chance to roll and wake up. (On the other hand, maybe inert means truly inert, and assuming they pass their save on the hit that drops them, they can't do anything until someone outside repairs them.)

[RoyVG]

I'm not entirely sure if these two rules are fit to be used together in regards to player dying/death situations. As long as you get stable, you will be up on your feet in 1 minute as long as you have 1 reserve point left, whether you are a Warforged or not.

As already mention, maybe as a house-rule, make it so that a Warforged, being mostly construct, do not expend Reserve points to regain health when inert as they must "actively" use their body repair functions, unlike living creatures who do this automatically. He'll stay inert forever unless healed 1 hitpoint. A Cure Light Wounds spell or a Craft(Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing or Gemcutting) DC 16 is enough to heal a Warforged 1 HP over the course of 8 hours. If the party has no way of doing this, he is effectively dead.

[Psyren]

For Death & Dying it seems simple to me - remove the "Dying" state. Also, during the "Stable" state, they can't improve their condition on their own - they must be healed or repaired. (You can change the name of this state to "Inert" to better represent this.) Warforged can therefore only be Disabled, Inert, or Dead.

Yes, this means they can't die on their own (they must be killed by failing the save by 10 or more.) But it also means they can never recover if rendered inert, unless they have some means of acting while unconscious (e.g. Subconscious Power or a Contingency.)

Reserve Points can then be used normally; you can choose to apply the Warforged's healing reduction either once (when they gain a healing effect that replenishes their hit points, cut it in half before determining the effect on their health and reserve), or twice (cut it in half both when they gain it and when they access their reserve.) Which you choose depends on how deadly you want to make things for them.

[Maginomicon]

Reserve Points can then be used normally; you can choose to apply the Warforged's healing reduction either once (when they gain a healing effect that replenishes their hit points, cut it in half before determining the effect on their health and reserve), or twice (cut it in half both when they gain it and when they access their reserve.) Which you choose depends on how deadly you want to make things for them.

Hmm... perhaps the simplest way to handle this is that the healing of lethal damage provided by reserve points counts as "healing naturally" and thus for warforged and non-intelligent undead reserve points only recover nonlethal damage (which means reserve points do nothing whatsoever for normal constructs and non-intelligent undead). This is based on the fact that without the Reserve Points variant, natural healing of lethal damage doesn't in-itself also recover nonlethal damage (all characters heal nonlethal damage anyway at a rate of 1/ECL/hour, so it would make sense that reserve points recovering a pool-limited number of nonlethal damage at a rate of 1 per minute wouldn't be game-breaking). This can be fluffed as something akin to "nanorepair".

I agree though that the "Dying" and "Stable" conditions are simply replaced with "Inert" for warforged. (they have to make another Fort save if damaged again just like a living creature that's stable, but they aren't actually "stable").

... Still, even with those stipulations, warforged in the Death And Dying variant are hardy-as-hell mofos, almost on-par with terminators.

[Psyren]

Hmm... perhaps the simplest way to handle this is that the healing of lethal damage provided by reserve points counts as "healing naturally" and thus for warforged and non-intelligent undead reserve points only recover nonlethal damage. This is based on the fact that without the Reserve Points variant, natural healing of lethal damage doesn't in-itself also recover nonlethal damage (all characters heal nonlethal damage anyway at a rate of 1 per hour, so it would make sense that reserve points recovering a pool-limited number of nonlethal damage at a rate of 1 per minute wouldn't be game-breaking). This can be fluffed as something akin to "nanorepair."

This all sounds fine to me.



... Still, even with those stipulations, warforged in the Death And Dying variant are hardy-as-hell mofos, almost on-par with terminators.

This is true, but once they DO get damaged, they're harder to heal, so it should be okay.

The intent behind Reserve Points is to reduce the game's lethality anyway; it's basically the prototype for Healing Surges. So presumably you're okay with PCs being harder to take down/feeling less in danger if you're using this variant to begin with.

[Maginomicon]

Ah s***. What about creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage but have fast healing for some reason? They'll get right back up six seconds later, won't they? (it's important that they be immune to nonlethal damage because fast healing heals nonlethal damage first).

[Psyren]

Ah s***. What about creatures that are immune to nonlethal damage but have fast healing for some reason? They'll get right back up six seconds later, won't they? (it's important that they be immune to nonlethal damage because fast healing heals nonlethal damage first).

Yes; under this variant, without nonlethal damage to keep them unconscious, they'll get up the following round from any attack that doesn't kill them outright. If you're not okay with that, you'll either need to restrict the means by which PCs can become immune to nonlethal, or tweak the system itself.

[Maginomicon]

Yes; under this variant, without nonlethal damage to keep them unconscious, they'll get up the following round from any attack that doesn't kill them outright. If you're not okay with that, you'll either need to restrict the means by which PCs can become immune to nonlethal, or tweak the system itself.
Come to think of it though...

A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing.
So would any creature that cannot heal lethal damage on its own (i.e. warforged) only be able to heal nonlethal damage with fast healing? Similarly, would non-intelligent undead and constructs get no benefit from fast healing whatsoever?

[Psyren]

Come to think of it though...

So would any creature that cannot heal lethal damage on its own (i.e. warforged) only be able to heal nonlethal damage with fast healing? Similarly, would non-intelligent undead and constructs get no benefit from fast healing whatsoever?

That depends on how you define "except for what is noted here." Fast Healing specifies you heal at the start of your turn. And it can be obtained from magic, e.g. lesser vigor.

[Maginomicon]

That depends on how you define "except for what is noted here." Fast Healing specifies you heal at the start of your turn. And it can be obtained from magic, e.g. lesser vigor.
Any number of Extraordinary abilities can be granted by magic (Darkvision, Evasion, Blindsight/Blindsense, Regeneration, Energy Resistance, Scent, Spell Resistance, and Turn Resistance, to name a few).

Regardless, I guess I'll just have to specify a house rule

Fast healing while at 0 hit points heals any nonlethal damage as normal, but instead of then healing lethal damage it provides a +2 circumstance bonus on The Fortitude Save for every point of fast healing that would heal lethal damage.

A mere +2 seems kind-of lame though...

[Psyren]

Any number of Extraordinary abilities can be granted by magic (Darkvision, Evasion, Blindsight/Blindsense, Regeneration, Energy Resistance, Scent, Spell Resistance, and Turn Resistance, to name a few).

Indeed, but they're magical if granted by a spell. Remember that an ability's default state is just that, default. (For example, magical darkvision can be dispelled and detected, while racial darkvision cannot.)

Nevertheless, your houserule seems fine also.



A mere +2 seems kind-of lame though...

+2 per point seems okay to me, so long as the Warforged's healing reduction doesn't apply to it. (So Lesser Vigor would give them +2 instead of +1 or nothing.)

[Sith_Happens]

The problem in the OP has nothing to do with Warforged and everything to do with the fact that the Death and Dying variant rules forget to address what happens when a dying or stable character is dealt lethal damage. The best fix is probably to just copy and paste the second to last sentence of the "disabled" section.

[Maginomicon]

The problem in the OP has nothing to do with Warforged and everything to do with the fact that the Death and Dying variant rules forget to address what happens when a dying or stable character is dealt lethal damage. The best fix is probably to just copy and paste the second to last sentence of the "disabled" section.
If you're already dying, there's no point in doing more damage to you as you're already unconscious and fading.

If you're stable, it's obvious that dealing damage to you would force another fortitude save as if you had just been knocked to 0 HP. It's not necessary to make that explicit.

[Sith_Happens]

If you're already dying, there's no point in doing more damage to you as you're already unconscious and fading.

Unless the enemy wants you dead ASAP and can't/won't CdG you for some reason (e.g.- they just moved to get to you, or they'd provoke an AoO from someone).


If you're stable, it's obvious that dealing damage to you would force another fortitude save as if you had just been knocked to 0 HP. It's not necessary to make that explicit.

In that case it's equally "obvious" that the same applies to inert Warforged.

[Maginomicon]

Unless the enemy wants you dead ASAP and can't/won't CdG you for some reason (e.g.- they just moved to get to you, or they'd provoke an AoO from someone).At best, an enemy will return to disabled status. They'd then be able to heal themselves, so I see your point, but still...


In that case it's equally "obvious" that the same applies to inert Warforged.No not really. The SRD's stable condition doesn't mention any special "if damaged during" conditions either. That's why it's implied here and not necessary to state it.

[Maginomicon]

Here's what I have now:


The Fortitude Save

When a character’s hit points are reduced to 0, he must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack). Success means the character is disabled; failure indicates that he is dying. Failure by 10 or more means the character is dead. If the character rolls a natural 1, he is dying. Calculate the numeric result; if he missed the DC by 10 or more, he is dead.

The possible results of the save are as follows.

Disabled

A disabled character is conscious, but can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but if a disabled character takes any standard action (or any other action the GM deems strenuous, including some free, swift, or immediate actions such as casting a quickened spell), she must succeed on a Fortitude save (against the same DC as the save made when reduced to 0 hit points) to remain disabled; otherwise, she becomes dying after she completes the action.

If a disabled character takes any new lethal damage, she must make a new Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect), but any result other than dead means the character is now dying.

A disabled character who is dealt (or who is currently suffering from) any nonlethal damage becomes unconscious (since the character’s nonlethal damage now exceeds his hit points) but does not begin dying.

A warforged that becomes disabled does not risk further damage from strenuous activity.

Dying

A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first, +2 per 10 lethal damage dealt to him in the last turn) to become stable. If the character fails the save, he dies. If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round. If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious. If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled.

Another character can make a dying character stable by succeeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity).
A warforged that would gain the dying condition instead becomes inert.

Stable

A stable character is unconscious. Every hour, a stable character must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per hour after the first) to remain stable. If a stable character takes any new lethal damage, she must make a new Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect) to remain stable.

If the character fails the damage save, he becomes dying (otherwise he remains stable).

If the character fails the hourly save, he becomes dying. If the character succeeds on the hourly save by less than 5, he does not get any worse, but does not improve. He is still stable and unconscious, and must continue to make Fortitude saves every hour. If the character succeeds on the hourly save by 5 or more, he becomes conscious and has 1 hit point.
Another character can grant a stable character a +2 bonus on his hourly Fortitude save to remain stable by tending to him for at least 10 minutes during the hour between saves and by making a DC 15 Heal check.

A warforged that would gain the stable condition instead becomes inert.

Dead

A dead character’s soul immediately departs the body, and getting it back into the body is a major hassle. Unless you have access to powerful divine magic, you can’t do much to a dead character except go through his pockets for loose gold pieces.

Healing

A disabled, stable, or dying character has 0 hit points. Healing that raises her above 0 hit points makes her conscious and fully functional again, just as if she had never been reduced to 0. A spellcaster retains the spellcasting ability she had before dropping to 0 hit points. (Of course, a character suffering from nonlethal damage equal to or in excess of her current hit points must still deal with the ramification of that state.)

The Fast Healing ability acts differently while you’re at 0 hit points. It first heals any nonlethal damage as normal, but instead of then healing lethal damage it provides a +2 circumstance bonus on The Fortitude Save for every point of fast healing that would heal lethal damage.

[Sith_Happens]

Looks fine, although I still think not being able to not-really-CdG someone is dysfunctional.

[Maginomicon]

Looks fine, although I still think not being able to not-really-CdG someone is dysfunctional.
What do you mean? There's nothing in there that says you can't CdG someone.

[Psyren]

Looks fine, although I still think not being able to not-really-CdG someone is dysfunctional.

CdG would work as normal - you automatically hit and crit. This forces the fort save due to damage just like whacking them normally would. Then the CdG action itself forces another fort save. So the odds are truly against someone surviving it - just like they would be for a CdG under normal rules.

[Sith_Happens]

I referred to "not-really-CdG"-ing. As in, just hitting them.

[Psyren]

I referred to "not-really-CdG"-ing. As in, just hitting them.

I'm not sure I understand you. You can hit them just fine, forcing another fort save.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not sure I understand you. You can hit them just fine, forcing another fort save.

*double-checks*

Okay, he did add that for Stable.