Blizzard closes all auction houses permanently as of March 2014

[Avilan the Grey]

According to an official statement from Blizzard today, Diablo III will no longer have any auction houses as of March 2014.

The reason for this is that the auction houses destroyed the purpose of the game, which is to kill things for loot and made the game impossible to properly balance.

Or as the sceptics of us said already before release: DUH.

In combination with "Loot 2.0", a totally rebalanced loot and drop system, this will be the big news for Diablo for a while.

[Psyren]

When you post news, include a link! (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/17/diablo-3-closing-real-money-gold-auction-houses-blizzard-says/)

Too little too late for D3 in my mind.

[Ogremindes]

When you post news, include a link! (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/17/diablo-3-closing-real-money-gold-auction-houses-blizzard-says/)

Too little too late for D3 in my mind.

Well it is also getting, you know, an expansion.

[Traab]

Ah see, I saw that in my email, decided since it included links I should ignore it as my luck tends to involve lots of keylogger spam. Im not too surprised, it really was silly. And especially with being able to pass the gear around to alts and such. Its been awhile since I played, but couldnt you also like, farm gold and gear on your hell character, and let your level 10 newbie spend that gold buying ludicrously overpriced items?

[Cikomyr]

So Blizzard realized that a cheap cash grab actually.. *gasp* HURT THEIR GAME?


D3 had other problems than the AH. Too cartoony in theme, for one.

[Avilan the Grey]

So Blizzard realized that a cheap cash grab actually.. *gasp* HURT THEIR GAME?


D3 had other problems than the AH. Too cartoony in theme, for one.

Hardly. Torchlight II is far more cartoony, and a much more fun game to play. (In fact, I cannot see anythign cartoony about DIII at all? Care to elaborate?)

[Cikomyr]

Hardly. Torchlight II is far more cartoony, and a much more fun game to play. (In fact, I cannot see anythign cartoony about DIII at all? Care to elaborate?)

But Torchlight is a different IP, with a different way of selling itself.

Just look at The Butcher; he's introduced like a freakkin' WWE wrestler

[Sylthia]

The title makes it sound like the WoW AH is getting the ax as well.

[Talderas]

Game with premise based on perpetual pointless grinding discards the one feature that made perpetual pointless grinding less necessary.

[Psyren]

Well it is also getting, you know, an expansion.

So?


The title makes it sound like the WoW AH is getting the ax as well.

Agreed, thread should specify D3.


Game with premise based on perpetual pointless grinding discards the one feature that made perpetual pointless grinding less necessary.

Taking out the grind sounds great in theory but really it's the reason people play. Look at ME3, if it weren't for Ultra-Rares being so insanely difficult to max out people would have moved on long ago.

[Talderas]

Taking out the grind sounds great in theory but really it's the reason people play. Look at ME3, if it weren't for Ultra-Rares being so insanely difficult to max out people would have moved on long ago.

Bioware doesn't have the same persona built up in its games that Blizzard does. Any current Blizzard title has an e-sports scene to it. Every single one of their current games is all about competition. Their whole strategy has been removing grindiness to foster greater competition. WoW has been getting less and less grindy to allow more and more individuals or guilds to compete. Diablo 3 introduced the AH to allow people will more commits (less time) to be able to compete with people have more time but fewer commitments.

My personal playtime of ME3 dropped off significantly once I had earned Best of the Best and maxed out all the rare weapons. A grind for a chance at something is of no interest to me since it's effort that may or may not be rewarded.

The D3 AH allows you to get rid of useful items that aren't of use to you and acquire items that are useful to you because you pretty much weren't going to get the stuff useful to yourself based on the stupid random loot generation. The system as it was designed at least allowed for some measurement of constant meaningful progress, unless the D2 model which was constant grind with no idea or guarantee of when something might happen or even if it would happen.

The whole "YESSS" moment of Diablo 2 was stupidly overrated because people severely devalued their own time spent playing the game by grinding hours for crap results.

The only reason I can tolerate grinding we at least meaningful progress is because I don't have nearly the responsibilities that other older gamers might have. The grind is something kids, college students, and the unemployed. For everyone else, if it doesn't have meaningful progress it's going to be discarded.

[Chen]

The implication of whats going to happen with the expansion will be interesting. Gold will be useful for some things (crafting, mystic, repairs) but I wonder if it will move towards a more barter economy. The problem is its going to remove a lot of information people have about the market. This generally benefits those who spend a lot of time FAR more than those who do not. Never being sure of the worth of something is certainly something to be concerned about.

It also makes trading less efficient. This isn't totally a bad thing. The AH was TOO efficient in this regard. You will need to spend more time in trade chat or trade games (if they add the ability to make named games). I don't necessarily think that's bad, though it does remove playing time.

I also wonder about what will happen with the massive disparity in gold there currently is. The mystic will let you re-roll stats on gear. I presume they'll need to cost this so that most everyone can use it, but that means those with billions of gold will clearly not even be inconvenienced by it. Also without an efficient AH trading system I wonder if some of the fixed prices need to be reduced. Collecting 14 million gold (let alone all the gems) to create a radiant star will take FOREVER without the incremental gold gains you could easily get with the AH (people won't waste time trying to peddle their 100k items via trade chat). Just crafting is extremely expensive. I collected 20 Demonic Essences to create gloves with. Forgetting the other mats, that cost 1 million in regular gold. That's FAR more gold than I picked up during the time I collected those 20 essences. I suspect things will need to be rebalanced around that.

I suppose they could just make every monster past level 60 drop stacks of 1 billion gold and then just divide everyone's gold by 1 million to "reset" the economy. I don't think that'd be very popular though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So basically... RMAH wasn't making as much money for them as they thought it would and caused too many hassles, so they decided to ax it. Good.

Now all they need to do is introduce single-player off-line play, even something along the lines of SC2 where you don't get any achievements recorded or whatever, and I might actually consider buying it.

[Tengu_temp]

They gave us the official reason. I bet the real reason why Blizzard is closing the D3 auction house is because the profits from it were way lower than expected, and not worth the hassle of maintaining the servers and watching out for scammers.

This will be especially true if the expansion will no longer be online-only. We all know that the reason Diablo 3 is online-only is the auction house.

EDIT: And somehow, Shneekey ninja'ed me with exactly the same points.

[Chen]

Now all they need to do is introduce single-player off-line play, even something along the lines of SC2 where you don't get any achievements recorded or whatever, and I might actually consider buying it.

I suspect they won't be doing that. Locking a lot of the information away from the client seems to have done remarkably well for keeping hacks/cheats out of the game. Most of the exploits that have occurred were due to errors in Blizzard's code rather than the more active hacks that occurred in D2.

[Choyrt]

Online only is the future for everything, I suspect.

As for Diablo 3, I found it to be a very well made game that was polished and I very much enjoyed the dark and violent atmosphere (while the palette was vibrant I do not think that the story is cheerful). Group play was where it shined.

In the end, the game was short and while I enjoyed upping the challenge the nature of the grind became absurd to me and I was quickly bored. I can only do these games in spurts. I'm honestly amazed to see the real money AH still chugging along.

As for the game itself, my wife and I both got it for free from our Warcraft subscriptions... I wonder how much money Blizzard lost on that in order to pursue the real money AH....

I also think the control scheme on a controller will be far superior to that of mouse and keyboard, so I am curious to see where Diablo 4 might land.

[Psyren]

Bioware doesn't have the same persona built up in its games that Blizzard does. Any current Blizzard title has an e-sports scene to it.

WoW has no e-sports scene as I understand the term. A "sport" is a game in which each competitor starts on a level playing field, with only training/skill/talent to differentiate them. WoW PvP has a gear progression model, therefore people don't start out equal. In Starcraft/Warcraft meanwhile, everyone has access to the same factions, the same resources and the same units.



WoW has been getting less and less grindy to allow more and more individuals or guilds to compete.

You've got to be kidding here. It's as grindy as its ever been, because the grind is the reason to keep logging on every night. Grind for mats for raid consumables. Grind rep for a Kite or Dragon. Grind to raise your ilvl another increment. And when you finally have the best gear possible, stand in town and /afk, preferably with a mod that lets you count how many times people check out your glistening bod.

[Chen]

You've got to be kidding here. It's as grindy as its ever been, because the grind is the reason to keep logging on every night. Grind for mats for raid consumables. Grind rep for a Kite or Dragon. Grind to raise your ilvl another increment. And when you finally have the best gear possible, stand in town and /afk, preferably with a mod that lets you count how many times people check out your glistening bod.

There's no way its as grindy as it ever was. There was an absurd amount of grind that was necessary in vanilla since you could stack every buff known to man (including both the Hakkar and Onyxia buffs which were separate raids in and of themselves!) just to raid the top tier content (Naxx). Rep grinding Quiraji tomes to get exalted? Rep grinding frostsaber trainers to get that one mount? No, original WoW was way grindier than now.

Of course, that's not to say its not still grindy. Its an MMO and as you said they stay grindy to keep people playing and thus paying.

[tigerusthegreat]

Maybe blizzard will realize that auction houses and loot systems work better if there's a drain to the loot....i.e. gear durability wear that isn't just a gold sink, but actually leads to gear eventually being useless.

[Psyren]

There's no way its as grindy as it ever was. There was an absurd amount of grind that was necessary in vanilla since you could stack every buff known to man (including both the Hakkar and Onyxia buffs which were separate raids in and of themselves!) just to raid the top tier content (Naxx). Rep grinding Quiraji tomes to get exalted? Rep grinding frostsaber trainers to get that one mount? No, original WoW was way grindier than now.

Of course, that's not to say its not still grindy. Its an MMO and as you said they stay grindy to keep people playing and thus paying.

That's fair but there's a floor to these things - a minimum amount of grind necessary to keep people doing dailies every night etc. A second job within the game as it were, because the dailies themselves sure as hell ain't fun - it's the rewards that people look forward to, in all the Skinnerboxy glory.


Maybe blizzard will realize that auction houses and loot systems work better if there's a drain to the loot....i.e. gear durability wear that isn't just a gold sink, but actually leads to gear eventually being useless.

Firefall is taking this route. Though I can see the benefits, fan reactions have been... mixed.

[Talderas]

WoW has no e-sports scene as I understand the term. A "sport" is a game in which each competitor starts on a level playing field, with only training/skill/talent to differentiate them. WoW PvP has a gear progression model, therefore people don't start out equal. In Starcraft/Warcraft meanwhile, everyone has access to the same factions, the same resources and the same units.

The e-sports isn't in PVP, it's in end game raiding. The competition is between guilds seeking world/server firsts on content. This in turn helps fuel the less hardcore players to want to do the content which leads Blizzard making it easier to get into the content.




You've got to be kidding here. It's as grindy as its ever been, because the grind is the reason to keep logging on every night. Grind for mats for raid consumables. Grind rep for a Kite or Dragon. Grind to raise your ilvl another increment. And when you finally have the best gear possible, stand in town and /afk, preferably with a mod that lets you count how many times people check out your glistening bod.

And that grind is fundamentally different from what is present in Diablo 3. Instead of praying for the RNG gods to grant you a good or useful item in Diablo 3, you pray for the RNG gods to drop X item over Y item and even if those items don't drop for you, they do drop for the raid so the guild is improved. Statistically, the item will drop far faster and far more reliably than what you need or want in Diablo 3. And all those grinds have measurable progress towards the goal. Exalted reputation? Every point of reputation is a point towards exalted. It's that measurable progress which separates the two. With D3 the AH provided measurable progress on the grind through gold. It didn't matter if the item was trash and crap. You sell it and you get X gold towards being able to buy something useful. Without the AH you get the D2 model where trash was vendored so you can waste gold on gambling hoping for something decent. Pointless, mindless grinding.

[Chen]

Maybe blizzard will realize that auction houses and loot systems work better if there's a drain to the loot....i.e. gear durability wear that isn't just a gold sink, but actually leads to gear eventually being useless.

Considering D2 didn't have this and lasted a hugely long time, I suspect you're wrong in that. Personally if my gear was going to get destroyed I wouldn't even bother with games like this. You want to have a carrot to go after. D2 was kept "fresh" with new runewords and other things that kept people going. The problem in D3 is that items weren't really unique and were just bigger numbers. My Wizard is nowhere near maxed out, but I'm at the point where its probably dozens of hours (if not more) to try get enough money for even a minor upgrade. And that will just be a numeric upgrade. It won't change the style of play or anything like an Enigma would in D2. I haven't found any drops that make me want to try a complete different playstyle. Itemization changes like this (which they've previewed for the expansion and loot 2.0 changes) will certainly help with longevity.

[Avilan the Grey]

Game with premise based on perpetual pointless grinding discards the one feature that made perpetual pointless grinding less necessary.

Um all Diablo games and Diablo-ish games consists of 100% grinding. It's what they are. It's like saying that we should remove the nerds from BBT, since they are so nerdy.


Look at ME3, if it weren't for Ultra-Rares being so insanely difficult to max out people would have moved on long ago.

There is no such things in ME3.
In the unnecessarily tacked on multiplayer there might be, but I wouldn't know.

[Talderas]

Um all Diablo games and Diablo-ish games consists of 100% grinding. It's what they are. It's like saying that we should remove the nerds from BBT, since they are so nerdy.

Diablo like games have grinding for the sake of grinding. They have no measurable progress towards any specific goal. Without the auction house I can't say "Oh I am this far or this close to getting X." With the auction house I can see the price of the goal and know that every piece of gold I acquire is moving towards that goal even if the goal posts are shifted.

These yardsticks provide people with less time the ability to at least gauge the amount of effort they need to put in to obtain the goal they want. if I know that I can earn 50k gold in an hour in Diablo 3 and the item I want costs 1m gold, then I know I need to invest about 20 hours to reach that goal. To use WoW. If I need 42,999 reputation to max out a faction at exalted and I can earn 1,900 reputation from daily quests, then I know that I will be exalted after 23 days of doing daily quests. I know about how long it takes to do those daily quests so I know how much time is being invested.

[Psyren]

There is no such things in ME3.
In the unnecessarily tacked on multiplayer there might be, but I wouldn't know.

The term "Ultra-Rare" didn't tip you off? :smallconfused:


The e-sports isn't in PVP, it's in end game raiding. The competition is between guilds seeking world/server firsts on content. This in turn helps fuel the less hardcore players to want to do the content which leads Blizzard making it easier to get into the content.

That's not a sport either; sports can be played more than once. Once a guild gets world first the competition is over, and the "server first" rush is not far behind that. What's more, 90% of guilds are simply unable to even compete in this so-called "sport." The barrier to entry for a guild capable of world-firsting or even server-firsting anything is too high. It's like not even being able to try swimming if you're not an Olympiad.

MOBAs can easily be an e-sport, but not MMOs - unless they have those closed-off PvP areas where everyone's gear is kept constant, which has been a continual non-starter in WoW.


And that grind is fundamentally different from what is present in Diablo 3. Instead of praying for the RNG gods to grant you a good or useful item in Diablo 3, you pray for the RNG gods to drop X item over Y item and even if those items don't drop for you, they do drop for the raid so the guild is improved. Statistically, the item will drop far faster and far more reliably than what you need or want in Diablo 3. And all those grinds have measurable progress towards the goal. Exalted reputation? Every point of reputation is a point towards exalted. It's that measurable progress which separates the two. With D3 the AH provided measurable progress on the grind through gold. It didn't matter if the item was trash and crap. You sell it and you get X gold towards being able to buy something useful. Without the AH you get the D2 model where trash was vendored so you can waste gold on gambling hoping for something decent. Pointless, mindless grinding.

There's not that much difference in practice between "pointless" grinding and... "pointful?" I dunno. Anyway, whether you're actually walking up to an NPC and clicking gamble or not, you're gambling just as much in WoW. Even putting aside the RNG, that gold you're earning gets sunk just as much into consumables, repairing, regemming, and re-enchanting as it does into actually buying upgrades on the AH, and thanks to Soulbound/Tier gear, many of the very best pieces simply can't be bought for any price. Not to mention massive goldsinks like flight training, super flight training, chocolate flight training and rocky road flight training. So saying "every gold piece goes toward something useful" isn't quite true.

The problem with D3 was the opposite - you could buy BiS gear, and in fact had to since your chances of getting Rares and Legendaries that were still trash for your class was unfortunately high. So AH farming became a core mechanic. Worse, there's little to no character customization (skills are chosen for you in a set progression, the main attributes are the only ones you need etc.) so there's almost no variation. At least in WoW, the right gear or tier bonuses could change which talents you would go with.

There's got to be some middle ground there somewhere.

[Avilan the Grey]

The term "Ultra-Rare" didn't tip you off? :smallconfused:

Note to self: Do not attempt humor on the interwebz. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:
Was trying to make fun of the fact that I am one of those who were dead set against a multiplayer component that affected single player in any way. And although it is still mostly patched away (since it is now almost impossible not to get max points even without MP) the whole idea that it affects SP is both morally wrong (as it points to Greed Above All as a mindset), and just don't fit the ME universe.

But let's not hit that particular undead horse today. :smallsmile:

[Legoshrimp]

Considering D2 didn't have this and lasted a hugely long time, I suspect you're wrong in that.

D2 didn't have a gear breaking thing to reduce items, but every 6 months- 1 year they completely reset the ladder. So they did have a gear/gold reset built in.

[GloatingSwine]

There is no such things in ME3.
In the unnecessarily tacked on multiplayer there might be, but I wouldn't know.

It's a pity Mass Effect 3 was a multiplayer title and they never finished the singleplayer story, imagine how much variation and unique content there could have been for all of our different approaches to playing the first two games.

[Psyren]

D2 didn't have a gear breaking thing to reduce items, but every 6 months- 1 year they completely reset the ladder. So they did have a gear/gold reset built in.

That's true, and thanks to ladder-only runewords they kept everyone wanting to stay there even if it meant abandoning a previously-progressed character.

But D3 has no items like that (that fundamentally change the way you play.) It's all just bigger numbers. As I said before, even WoW had some endgame items with tier bonuses on them (PvP and PvE alike) to mix things up and make the grind somewhat desirable.

[Karoht]

I also think the control scheme on a controller will be far superior to that of mouse and keyboard, so I am curious to see where Diablo 4 might land.You do know that they just launched the console version of D3, right?

[Avilan the Grey]

I also think the control scheme on a controller will be far superior to that of mouse and keyboard, so I am curious to see where Diablo 4 might land.

Still have not find any game, or game genre, that is easier to control than with a keyboard and mouse with a controller except for racing games and fighting games.

I shudder at the idea of trying to control Diablo 3 with a controller... *ugh*

[Siosilvar]

It's a pity Mass Effect 3 was a multiplayer title and they never finished the singleplayer story, imagine how much variation and unique content there could have been for all of our different approaches to playing the first two games.

It's a pity that two different teams developed the multiplayer and singleplayer and both turned out pretty good, with some spotty exceptions in the singleplayer.

And no, you can't just add the multiplayer dev team to the singleplayer dev team and expect anything good to come from it. Too many cooks, diminishing returns, different focuses, and all that jazz.

I won't defend its flaws as anything except flaws, but multiplayer was not the cause of them. Which is a story for another thread and which has been hashed and rehashed far more than is necessary.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's a pity that two different teams developed the multiplayer and singleplayer and both turned out pretty good, with some spotty exceptions in the singleplayer.

And no, you can't just add the multiplayer dev team to the singleplayer dev team and expect anything good to come from it. Too many cooks, diminishing returns, different focuses, and all that jazz.

I won't defend its flaws as anything except flaws, but multiplayer was not the cause of them. Which is a story for another thread and which has been hashed and rehashed far more than is necessary.

I have no problem with the MP except from the decision to connect it in ANY way to the SP campaign.

[GloatingSwine]

It's a pity that two different teams developed the multiplayer and singleplayer and both turned out pretty good, with some spotty exceptions in the singleplayer.

And no, you can't just add the multiplayer dev team to the singleplayer dev team and expect anything good to come from it. Too many cooks, diminishing returns, different focuses, and all that jazz.

I won't defend its flaws as anything except flaws, but multiplayer was not the cause of them. Which is a story for another thread and which has been hashed and rehashed far more than is necessary.

It's a pity you didn't catch my tongue in cheek point that the Multiplayer was the best and most compelling bit of Mass Effect 3.

I mean at least the only way it can end in crushing disappointment is a disconnect in wave 11.

(and yeah, it totally should have been seperate from the stupid war assets thing).

[GloatingSwine]

Hardly. Torchlight II is far more cartoony, and a much more fun game to play. (In fact, I cannot see anythign cartoony about DIII at all? Care to elaborate?)

Insufficient brown and grey.

If you want the old Diablo gloomy feel, then Path of Exile.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I suspect they won't be doing that. Locking a lot of the information away from the client seems to have done remarkably well for keeping hacks/cheats out of the game. Most of the exploits that have occurred were due to errors in Blizzard's code rather than the more active hacks that occurred in D2.

It didn't seem to hurt Torchlight 2 in the least...

[Avilan the Grey]

Insufficient brown and grey.

If you want the old Diablo gloomy feel, then Path of Exile.

Haha I love this fake argument... D1 was basically Technocolor. BRIGHT red, BRIGHT yellow, DARK blue...

The argument that DIII is too colorful is made by people with severe nostalgia filter.

[Krade]

I shudder at the idea of trying to control Diablo 3 with a controller... *ugh*

I never played on PC, but I picked D3 up for my 360 a couple weeks ago. The controls are fantastic. I'd change a couple things about them myself, but as they are, I can find no major complaints.

As far keyboard and mouse being inherently superior to a controller, the only way it's really an issue is in twitch-reaction multiplayer games. A predominantly PvE game like Diablo doesn't lose a significant amount of anything worth complaining about with a controller.

[Ogremindes]

I go with a controller whenever possible. I played D3 on PC for a while over the last couple of days, and now my clicking finger hurts.

[Avilan the Grey]

I go with a controller whenever possible. I played D3 on PC for a while over the last couple of days, and now my clicking finger hurts.

How is that different from whatever button you press on the controller?

[Ogremindes]

How is that different from whatever button you press on the controller?

Dunno. But it is. Maybe it's just 'cause the controller is different movements than the mouse I'm using every day anyway.

[Choyrt]

I almost always prefer keyboard and mouse unless it is a fighting game or platform game, but the movement in Diablo 3 on PC really bugged the hell out of me. I imagine an analog stick would fix much of that problem, and the game isn't complicated enough to merit a hot-keyed keyboard map.

I do think that people sharing a SCREEN might be an issue, though. I despise split screen!

[Cikomyr]

Insufficient brown and grey.

If you want the old Diablo gloomy feel, then Path of Exile.


Haha I love this fake argument... D1 was basically Technocolor. BRIGHT red, BRIGHT yellow, DARK blue...

The argument that DIII is too colorful is made by people with severe nostalgia filter.

I don't want to distract you from your strawman too much, but how about we get back to the conversation?

TUN makes a better argument than I as to why Diablo III's overall theme fails. And it has little to do with the coloring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I22Ivb8ELzQ

[Sylthia]

I usually find a controller to be more ergonomic. At a keyboard, I can get cramps, but almost never have that issue with a controller.

[Wookieetank]

It's a pity Mass Effect 3 was a multiplayer title and they never finished the singleplayer story, imagine how much variation and unique content there could have been for all of our different approaches to playing the first two games.

BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I have to agree with you on this one. :smallbiggrin:

Due to a number of concerns with D3 from the get go, I skipped it in favor of TL2 which I don't regret one bit.

On the console bit, I can see how it'd work well, having played Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2, Dungeon Siege 3 and the like on the PS3. Proper button mapping can make all the difference.

[Talderas]

How is that different from whatever button you press on the controller?

Controllers are frequently using the thumb to press buttons while the mouse relies on the index and middle finger. The former is much stronger and can handle repetitive action much better.

[Traab]

It could also be a matter of familiarity. I am used to using the keyboard and mouse combo, I havent really been a console gamer for years, so its all about flexing finger muscles in ways I am no longer used to. I could see a good controller working well for D3 though. All your skills are right there and ready to be used.

[Avilan the Grey]

Controllers are frequently using the thumb to press buttons while the mouse relies on the index and middle finger. The former is much stronger and can handle repetitive action much better.

I guess it's a matter of exercise then. My fingers are definitely stronger than my thumbs. Of course I have been using a mouse since Amiga 500 first came out, and since I sit in front of a computer all day in the office...

(Also, the second statement is just wrong, there is no noticeable difference in endurance between finger finger joints, thumbs or otherwise).

[Krade]

How many skills can you hotkey in the PC version, anyway? You get 6 on console. I feel they could have easily put on a toggle to double that, though, like in Baldur's Gate (console version).

[Ogremindes]

How many skills can you hotkey in the PC version, anyway? You get 6 on console. I feel they could have easily put on a toggle to double that, though, like in Baldur's Gate (console version).

Just the 6 on PC too.

[Krade]

Just the 6 on PC too.

Really? I would've figured it had more. That's pretty much the only thing (aside from what I said before about multiplayer games) the keyboard and mouse really has on controllers: More possible commands.

So the Left Trigger (L2 on PS3) is "Target Lock". I think I tried to use it once or twice before realizing how completely useless and unnecessary it was. All they had to do was change that useless command to an ability toggle and BAM! 12 abilities on hot key.

[Starwulf]

Really? I would've figured it had more. That's pretty much the only thing (aside from what I said before about multiplayer games) the keyboard and mouse really has on controllers: More possible commands.

So the Left Trigger (L2 on PS3) is "Target Lock". I think I tried to use it once or twice before realizing how completely useless and unnecessary it was. All they had to do was change that useless command to an ability toggle and BAM! 12 abilities on hot key.

You can only HAVE 6 skills to use at any point in time, so more spaces would be useless ^^

[Avilan the Grey]

You can only HAVE 6 skills to use at any point in time, so more spaces would be useless ^^

Yeah, it's not like Dragon Age Origins.

[Krade]

You can only HAVE 6 skills to use at any point in time, so more spaces would be useless ^^

But that's my point. Why be restricted to 6 when you can double it?

[Avilan the Grey]

But that's my point. Why be restricted to 6 when you can double it?

But then why stop at 12 and not 244?
I mean you have to stop somewhere, right?

[Seerow]

But then why stop at 12 and not 244?
I mean you have to stop somewhere, right?

And this is how you get Starcraft and WoW players with their entire keyboards + 30 button mouse + alt/shift/ctrl macros for all of them, and a total of hundreds of keybinds all of which are completely necessary to play

[Avilan the Grey]

And this is how you get Starcraft and WoW players with their entire keyboards + 30 button mouse + alt/shift/ctrl macros for all of them, and a total of hundreds of keybinds all of which are completely necessary to play

LOL yeah
But yes. why is 12 better than 6? It's all about game design and balance.

[Aotrs Commander]

LOL yeah
But yes. why is 12 better than 6? It's all about game design and balance.

I would say largely because unless you are adept and wont to switch things around frequently (and I suspect a large proportion of people, like me, aren't), then you will naturally end up gravitating to spamming the same handful of abilities over and over. Out of sight, out of mind and all that.

(I found that especially true in D2.)

One thing I thought NWN1 did right was to have multiple bars of quick slots (normal, shift bar, control bar...)

[Choyrt]

I will never understand the argument that rages over Diablo's evolving ascetic. I honestly was never impressed with the games themselves or compelled by the genre overall, so perhaps my minimal investment bars me from grasping the nuances of it all. I was an Icewind Dale kinda guy. I do enjoy Torchlight 2, however, in that it feels less... stressful? And I have a ferret with goggles, which is a selling point for any game.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/Xyljin/ilurbferret.jpg

Returning to the closing of the real money AH, I wonder what kind of precedent this may set in the future for games of this nature? Will gamers hesitate to delve money into these kinds of systems? Will games like D3 launch and then a year-after release a real money AH will come along?

Also, doesn't Eve have a real money AH? How is their's successful when compared to D3? I've got a few guesses, but what do you think?

[Krade]

LOL yeah
But yes. why is 12 better than 6? It's all about game design and balance.

Thinking about it more, having quick access to a half-dozen more abilities could throw balance right out the window. Especially with the classes with powerful abilities that require a cooldown instead of resource cost (mostly the barbarian). You could just cycle through 4 or 5 (or more) cooldown skills and always have a powerful ability ready to go and be able to save the resource for when you need it (which would end up being much less often).

If the game worked solely off of mana for everyone, the number of bindings possible wouldn't need to be brought up. If your limiting factor is mana and only mana for every skill, then it wouldn't matter and you could bind however much you want. As it stands with the cooldown powers, allowing more hotkeys would break the balance (some classes more than others, though).

So never mind about that, I guess.

[Karoht]

They also did it to make those abilities actual meaningful choices, without completely overwhelming a player. And they planned on a console release from the get go, but that got delayed due to several issues.
And as far as the expansion goes, I was expecting them to allow for a 7th ability slot, or maybe a 4th passive. Now I'm not so sure, based on the datamining so far.

As far as the RMAH goes, it was in interesting experiment towards another approach to free to play, pay to upgrade. I think standard sale and pricing schemes (IE-Buy points, spend points on gear) will be how other companies handle monetized itemization in future, rather than trying to link it into a player driven economy in any way. It's how other F2P games are running currently with minimal fuss.

There is one reason I am concerned about the lack of the AH from this point forward.
The secondary reason Blizzard made the AH in the first place was to keep people from going to 3rd party sites and having their credit card info stolen, their computers loaded up with viruses, their accounts hijacked, etc. Yes, they did it to make money but they also did it to protect their customers. They can't control the 3rd party sites but they can control their product, so they included the AH to make the 3rd party trading and selling unnecessary and obsolete.

So what happens when people turn to the 3rd party sites again?
"Stupid Blizzard for including the AH and ruining the game!"
~followed by~
"Stupid Blizzard for taking out the AH and forcing players to go to 3rd party alternatives to get gear, getting hacked and viruses and having credit card info stolen."

Chen also brought up some of the problems involved with bartering gear. Namely the problem of comparison. But, players somehow solved this problem back in the D2 days, so maybe it will get solved again by players.

[Psyren]

Buying gear is really a double-edged sword (and I find it interesting that Blizzard themselves used this term.) On one hand, it encourages people who otherwise don't have time for your game to play it, because they can quickly keep pace with challenging content without sinking in time they don't have, and thus not get bored or frustrated before they reach it.

On the other hand though, it removes the need to actually play your game, which means the only folks actually playing the game normally are the ones seeking to make money or gold on one of the two exchanges, or the folks who can't afford to buy gear and don't make a career out of the AH. My guess is that the former group isn't the most fun to actually play with, while the latter group will quickly get disillusioned whenever they see someone running around in uber-powerful paid gear.

So the folks who skip to high-end gear relish their uberness, play for awhile, then realize there's no real reason to keep playing since they already have the best gear (or close enough) and so quit. As their market dries up, the folks who were playing the game to sell to them see their business drop off, and as their wares languish on the exchanges, they play less too, if not move on entirely. As both groups slip out of the exchanges, there are less transactions and so Blizzard makes less and less commissions, and the AH becomes a detriment.

Removing it forces players to progress normally again - the best gear is "found gear" and so that shortcut to power goes away.

I also took a look at the breakdown for "Loot 2.0." (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127079-Update-Diablo-IIIs-Loot-2-0-Breakdown-Less-Better-More-Epic) The emphasis is on less whites (and thus less clutter), blues staying relatively unchanged, yellows being reduced but also becoming "smart drops" which are more likely to be tailored to your class. Finally, Legendaries (uniques) will be "build-changers - modifying your skills in ways that runewords used to. For example, they previewed a legendary Wizard Staff that, under Loot 2.0, had a chance of spawning hydras with every kill that don't count against your maximum. If you were focused around Hydras then you could summon an entire battery of them with this weapon, thus getting it would encourage you to do exactly that.



As far as the RMAH goes, it was in interesting experiment towards another approach to free to play, pay to upgrade. I think standard sale and pricing schemes (IE-Buy points, spend points on gear) will be how other companies handle monetized itemization in future, rather than trying to link it into a player driven economy in any way. It's how other F2P games are running currently with minimal fuss.

Sort of. Current F2P games with successful microtransaction models tend to sell convenience, not power. D3 was absolutely selling power (even if they weren't the direct seller), and they are just one more case study in why that's a bad idea.

[Talderas]

Sort of. Current F2P games with successful microtransaction models tend to sell convenience, not power. D3 was absolutely selling power (even if they weren't the direct seller), and they are just one more case study in why that's a bad idea.

Plenty of F2P games sell power. World of Tanks, for instance, sells better quality ammunition for money. Travian sells a lot of huge boosts for playing the game for real money.

[Traab]

Wow, I like the sound of the gear drop changes. It was freaking weird how it seemed you couldnt so much as kill a zombie pack without them dropping 6 bits of grey armor, 3 grey weapons, 2 potions, and a handful of gold. And with the greys being so worthless to sell im surprised merchants didnt stand charging us to take it off our hands! lol.


Plenty of F2P games sell power. World of Tanks, for instance, sells better quality ammunition for money. Travian sells a lot of huge boosts for playing the game for real money.

Wartunes is another that sells power as well as toys. Spend 20 bucks and you get gear at like level 5 that will be superior to anything you will see till level 40 (which is pretty high in that game) as well as an item that adds a permanent stat boost you cant get anywhere but from the store. You will not see anyone in the top 20 pvp rankings that hasnt done this, its pretty unbalanced that way. Though you CAN play without buying it.

[Psyren]

Plenty of F2P games sell power. World of Tanks, for instance, sells better quality ammunition for money. Travian sells a lot of huge boosts for playing the game for real money.

Actually, that's not an example - you're paying for convenience there because you can buy that same quality ammunition using the in-game currency, and you don't have to buy it from other players (so supply is unlimited.) In D3 however, there is no in-game store where you can buy premium items directly from Blizzard; combined with the extreme rarity of legendaries, and supply of quality items is very limited. Which results in a purchasing power / pay to win scenario even if that wasn't what they intended.

Not familiar with Wartunes though.

[Krade]

Watched the presentation for Loot 2.0. Is the Paragon thing in the PC version now, or is it a completely new thing?

[Traab]

Actually, that's not an example - you're paying for convenience there because you can buy that same quality ammunition using the in-game currency, and you don't have to buy it from other players (so supply is unlimited.) In D3 however, there is no in-game store where you can buy premium items directly from Blizzard; combined with the extreme rarity of legendaries, and supply of quality items is very limited. Which results in a purchasing power / pay to win scenario even if that wasn't what they intended.

Not familiar with Wartunes though.

As a brief description, Wartunes is a mishmash of genres, its a bit of an rpg, with a linear storyline. You can play as a mage, a knight, or a archer. Very rock paper scissors type of ability range there. Also, as you level up, you come into ownership of a city, and more and more buildings unlock like a blacksmith to upgrade the gear you looted, an arena to fight duels, a building to setup groups for dungeon runs, etc etc etc. There is an mmo feel to it because you can chat with everyone, form guilds, form groups, etc etc etc.

There is also a sizeable pvp chunk of game play. You can fight in 20 duels a day in a ladder ranking. After the first day or so you are generally ranked close to your limit and your rank at the end of the day, determines the reward you get. The closer to number 1 you are, the better your reward will be. This reward is used to upgrade troops you hire to help run through the game. There are also team pvp duels 3v3. You can join a random group or form a premade one, then duel other teams. And as you do so, you earn insignias that you can cash in for some pretty kickass gear.

In wartunes, the micro transactions are a mix of things, some that makes a difference in gameplay, others that make less, some that makes none (cosmetic things) In the example I listed, by spending rl money, you can purchase some gear, in this case jewelry, with stats equal to what you loot at level 40 or 45, I forget which. Now, if you are willing to wait till that level you can loot it then, but if you are willing to spend money you can get it WAY earlier, and have a freaking massive advantage over other players who didnt at low to mid levels.

Since there is pvp in this game, focusing on arena duels and such, that has a fairly large effect on your gameplay. It also causes you to level up way faster and get larger rewards, because there are events like world boss fights where you egt rewarded based on how much damage you did personally, and also where you ranked among the potentially hundreds of other people attacking it. So those who spent the cash get the higher rankings, which gives them bigger rewards, which lets them level up faster and widen the gap between you even further.

Now, jewelry aside, there is also an item you can buy ONLY with rl money that adds a passive stat bonus. Its impact is less and less the higher level you get, but its still there. You will always have that many more hp, hit that much harder, etc etc etc. Once again, all things being equal, the guy willing to drop real money will have that advantage.

Overall, you dont need to spend money to play, but if you do you will have a HUGE early advantage, and at least a noticeable advantage late game, though not insurmountable. Since this is a D3 topic, imagine if your barbarian started out the game, and by level 5, was given a weapon that he wouldnt normally be able to equip till he is in act 3 nightmare difficulty. Can you see how massive of a bonus that would be for him? The advantage shrinks as he levels up, but for the early to mid game, its still there.

Now imagine if like half the game revolved around ranking you against other players. Half the rewards you can get require you to fight other players in several ways. Without that money spent, you will not be able to compete at the highest ranks until you hit the end of nightmare difficulty at best. You will never be in the top 20% until your gear is able to catch up to the guy who paid real cash for that early boost. And because he DID spend that cash and got that advantage, he also leveled up way faster than you, and progressed further than you did, meaning he will be many levels ahead of you by the time your gear catches up to his bought stuff. So his gear will still be better than yours. After all, the ladder ranks arent separated by level, so that new level 10 player is on the same ladder as mr moneybags level 50 with his real money gained bonuses and such.

[huttj509]

Watched the presentation for Loot 2.0. Is the Paragon thing in the PC version now, or is it a completely new thing?

The post-cap levels? They're in-game now.

[GloatingSwine]

Haha I love this fake argument... D1 was basically Technocolor. BRIGHT red, BRIGHT yellow, DARK blue...

The argument that DIII is too colorful is made by people with severe nostalgia filter.

I may not have been 100% For Serious Guys.


(Actually, I would say that much of Diablo's reputation for being gloomy came from the soundtrack anyway)

[Traab]

I never liked original diablo, though in hindsight that MAY have been because I didnt know what the gamma setting was so I couldnt see squat in the dungeons. I still have d2 on my computer though. I think my favorite time was when they first added in the skill synergy thing. Suddenly my characters are way stronger than they were because the 12 ranks I put in my previous skill and ignore now that I have a higher ranked version are also adding in a passive damage boost to the better one! Or, my skeletons are way tougher and stronger than before. I also found it pretty awesome when they started putting in the class only stuff like targes, shrunken heads, special javelins, etc. It made things interesting.

[Avilan the Grey]

(Actually, I would say that much of Diablo's reputation for being gloomy came from the soundtrack anyway)

My favorite soundtrack ever.

[Psyren]

Now, jewelry aside, there is also an item you can buy ONLY with rl money that adds a passive stat bonus. Its impact is less and less the higher level you get, but its still there. You will always have that many more hp, hit that much harder, etc etc etc. Once again, all things being equal, the guy willing to drop real money will have that advantage.

Overall, you dont need to spend money to play, but if you do you will have a HUGE early advantage, and at least a noticeable advantage late game, though not insurmountable. Since this is a D3 topic, imagine if your barbarian started out the game, and by level 5, was given a weapon that he wouldnt normally be able to equip till he is in act 3 nightmare difficulty. Can you see how massive of a bonus that would be for him? The advantage shrinks as he levels up, but for the early to mid game, its still there.

Now imagine if like half the game revolved around ranking you against other players. Half the rewards you can get require you to fight other players in several ways. Without that money spent, you will not be able to compete at the highest ranks until you hit the end of nightmare difficulty at best. You will never be in the top 20% until your gear is able to catch up to the guy who paid real cash for that early boost. And because he DID spend that cash and got that advantage, he also leveled up way faster than you, and progressed further than you did, meaning he will be many levels ahead of you by the time your gear catches up to his bought stuff. So his gear will still be better than yours. After all, the ladder ranks arent separated by level, so that new level 10 player is on the same ladder as mr moneybags level 50 with his real money gained bonuses and such.

But it sounds like you agree with me here - pay to win is a bad model and should be avoided. And it looks like this game has fallen into that trap. And so has Diablo 3, hence (at least in part) the decision to shutter the RMAH.

[Traab]

But it sounds like you agree with me here - pay to win is a bad model and should be avoided. And it looks like this game has fallen into that trap. And so has Diablo 3, hence (at least in part) the decision to shutter the RMAH.

I dunno, at least in d3 you could buy the stuff with in game currency. Admittedly I havent played in months so I dont know if the regular ah is dead and only the one for real cash is going but, I honestly dont mind. See, to me, d3 is a single player game, so if I cant buy the awesome mega gear for my level, no big, the junk I loot is good enough to get on with. In wartunes while you didnt NEED the store bought gear to play, it was an advantage, and it caused problems due to the pvp stuff involved with regular game play.

[Starwulf]

But that's my point. Why be restricted to 6 when you can double it?

Because that is how they balanced the game, based around the use of 6 skills at any given time. You give people access to all the skills, or even just 12, or 10, or probably even 8, and you've suddenly massively overbalanced things towards the players.

Edit: sigh, and this is why I should have read just 2-3 posts further, I'd have seen that you came to that conclusion on your own :)

[GloatingSwine]

Restricting the number of skills people can access at a time makes them think about their build more, means they have to make decisions about their character and therefore about how their build will approach given challenges.

[Hyena]

Oh no, buying gear for real money has backfired. How could this possible happen?

[Artanis]

Even without getting into peoples' personal opinions (including mine)...


How many of the various complaints about D3 stemmed from the AH? Online-only was "required" to keep the economy - and thus the AH - as cheat-proof as possible. The loot system was designed (at least in part) to make the economy - and thus the AH - work as well as possible. The massive jump in both difficulty and grindy-ness from Hell to Inferno was related to, you guessed it, the effect it would have on the economy - and thus the AH. And so on.


I'm not saying that removing the AH will fix said points of contention, but said points of contention sure as hell can't be fixed without taking out the AH first.

[Sylthia]

Even without getting into peoples' personal opinions (including mine)...


How many of the various complaints about D3 stemmed from the AH? Online-only was "required" to keep the economy - and thus the AH - as cheat-proof as possible. The loot system was designed (at least in part) to make the economy - and thus the AH - work as well as possible. The massive jump in both difficulty and grindy-ness from Hell to Inferno was related to, you guessed it, the effect it would have on the economy - and thus the AH. And so on.


I'm not saying that removing the AH will fix said points of contention, but said points of contention sure as hell can't be fixed without taking out the AH first.

Any chance we can get off-line mode now? I understand they want to make an e-sport of it, but if people want to mod their own game, have at it. It's part of what makes Skyrim and Baldur's Gate, as well as PC gaming in general, great.

[Avilan the Grey]

Any chance we can get off-line mode now? I understand they want to make an e-sport of it, but if people want to mod their own game, have at it. It's part of what makes Skyrim and Baldur's Gate, as well as PC gaming in general, great.

Nope. Already official that there will never be an offline mode (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/18/diablo-3-to-remain-always-online-despite-planned-auction-house-closures/).

[Sylthia]

Nope. Already official that there will never be an offline mode (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/18/diablo-3-to-remain-always-online-despite-planned-auction-house-closures/).

Why is cheat-prevention an issue in a single-player game?

[Traab]

Nope. Already official that there will never be an offline mode (http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/09/18/diablo-3-to-remain-always-online-despite-planned-auction-house-closures/).

Never say never, they used to say never about a number of things in their games, if enough people gripe long enough, they will eventually get around to making it happen. It will just be awhile, because they need time to let their staunch hatred of single player gaming fade a bit from our memory, then they can work on it, then announce it for an upcoming patch. :p

[Psyren]

Never say never, they used to say never about a number of things in their games, if enough people gripe long enough, they will eventually get around to making it happen.

Precisely - during development when people were predicting the RMAH was a bad idea, they were talking about how excited they were about it and that it would redefine monetization etc. But like any company they'll analyze the numbers and make the rational choice.

What's amusing though is that the console folks do get offline play.

[Avilan the Grey]

Why is cheat-prevention an issue in a single-player game?

It's not a single player game.
You can play alone, but it's not a single player game.

Also, this has been explained over and over - the reason D1 and D2 got hacked, was because of client side data. Aka off line play. By not having the data off line, there is nothing to hack, nothing for the hackers to aid them figuring out how the server works.

[Sylthia]

It's not a single player game.
You can play alone, but it's not a single player game.

Also, this has been explained over and over - the reason D1 and D2 got hacked, was because of client side data. Aka off line play. By not having the data off line, there is nothing to hack, nothing for the hackers to aid them figuring out how the server works.

I know that's the reason that it got hacked, I just don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to mod the game to give themselves whatever, why is it an issue?

I thought a game you could play by yourself was the definition of a single-player game. It can be multiplayer, but it is the same fundamental experience. Sorry, not trying to sound rude.

[Avilan the Grey]

I know that's the reason that it got hacked, I just don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to mod the game to give themselves whatever, why is it an issue?

I thought a game you could play by yourself was the definition of a single-player game. It can be multiplayer, but it is the same fundamental experience. Sorry, not trying to sound rude.

The issue is that the off line data allowed people to construct hacks that could get into the servers. Cheated characters, duped items etc.

[Starwulf]

The issue is that the off line data allowed people to construct hacks that could get into the servers. Cheated characters, duped items etc.

Which in turn destroys the player built economy. At one point the common trade rune in Diablo 2 was an Um. Then it was Ist. Then Vex became the more or less standard. Early on Sojs were considered currency, it eventually got to the point where they were so devalued, 40 of them were barely enough to do anything with.

Still, I do wish there was offline mode, just for those times I want to mess around without dealing with peeps online, or, better yet, download a mod or two, because some of the mods people made for D2(Median XL!!!!) were pretty freaking incredible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Which in turn destroys the player built economy. At one point the common trade rune in Diablo 2 was an Um. Then it was Ist. Then Vex became the more or less standard. Early on Sojs were considered currency, it eventually got to the point where they were so devalued, 40 of them were barely enough to do anything with.

Which was only a concern if you actually ever logged into bnet. For those of us who never did, it never had an impact.

Of course, logging into bnet was highly discouraged by the incredibly toxic community which was, if anything, worse than the actual blizzard forums.

Not everyone wants to be social when playing video games. Some people use video games as a means of de-stressing from having to deal with people all day in the workplace. Some people like raiding, other people just want to kill a bunch of not-so-helpless pixels while mentally putting the faces of those who irritated them on the mobs.

This is what D1 and D2 were to me. For that matter, this is what TL2 is for me. I guess that's just not what D3 wants to be.

[SiuiS]

Still have not find any game, or game genre, that is easier to control than with a keyboard and mouse with a controller except for racing games and fighting games.

I shudder at the idea of trying to control Diablo 3 with a controller... *ugh*

D3 is actually fairly smooth; from what I've read, it's actually easier than using a mouse most ways. The only advantage in the engine would be keybinding, and since that isn't utilized...

I remember how hilariously bad the original diablo was on playstation, too. Ugh. This is heads and tails above it. Above a lot of console games, actually. The controls are fantastic.


I have no problem with the MP except from the decision to connect it in ANY way to the SP campaign.

Eh. "You can get a bonus that isn't necessary by playing both" isn't even really a connection. You're not penalized for going straight single player, you're just slightly, ever so slightly rewarded for going multiplayer. that's fine.


How is that different from whatever button you press on the controller?

Ergonomics, wear, repetition.


I almost always prefer keyboard and mouse unless it is a fighting game or platform game, but the movement in Diablo 3 on PC really bugged the hell out of me. I imagine an analog stick would fix much of that problem, and the game isn't complicated enough to merit a hot-keyed keyboard map.

I do think that people sharing a SCREEN might be an issue, though. I despise split screen!

Wait, you can do split screen? huh.


Just the 6 on PC too.

interesting.


Really? I would've figured it had more. That's pretty much the only thing (aside from what I said before about multiplayer games) the keyboard and mouse really has on controllers: More possible commands.

Aye. I figure it's like mass Effect 2, wherein you've got things much more simplified, to allow for more archetypal choices. The full game looks like it would handle it well, especially as it seems that powers don't have their own damage values and instead use weapon numbers. Every class is basically a 3e warlock; Generiblast plus shape plus effect.


So the Left Trigger (L2 on PS3) is "Target Lock". I think I tried to use it once or twice before realizing how completely useless and unnecessary it was. All they had to do was change that useless command to an ability toggle and BAM! 12 abilities on hot key.

really? I can't imagine what that would be good for. The target lock, I mean.


You can only HAVE 6 skills to use at any point in time, so more spaces would be useless ^^

But they would naturally have changed that. If you had more choices which were simultaneously available as a design decision, then you wouldn't be limited to those six buttons. We are talking about game code, not button space, really.


I will never understand the argument that rages over Diablo's evolving ascetic. I honestly was never impressed with the games themselves or compelled by the genre overall, so perhaps my minimal investment bars me from grasping the nuances of it all. I was an Icewind Dale kinda guy. I do enjoy Torchlight 2, however, in that it feels less... stressful? And I have a ferret with goggles, which is a selling point for any game.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/Xyljin/ilurbferret.jpg

Returning to the closing of the real money AH, I wonder what kind of precedent this may set in the future for games of this nature? Will gamers hesitate to delve money into these kinds of systems? Will games like D3 launch and then a year-after release a real money AH will come along?

Also, doesn't Eve have a real money AH? How is their's successful when compared to D3? I've got a few guesses, but what do you think?

I have to admit, the ferret does make a compelling case...


Thinking about it more, having quick access to a half-dozen more abilities could throw balance right out the window. Especially with the classes with powerful abilities that require a cooldown instead of resource cost (mostly the barbarian). You could just cycle through 4 or 5 (or more) cooldown skills and always have a powerful ability ready to go and be able to save the resource for when you need it (which would end up being much less often).

You cannot change powers while they are in cooldown (yes, I am fast enough o get into the power change menu while on cooldown midcombat). The trigger toggle for additional buttons would simply leave powers on cooldown as greyed out and non-switched.

That said, I don't exactly see it being necessary. The system as is does seem to have quite a variety of capacities, they are just all locked away behind levels. I would have liked a bit more fluidity than that. I was never a fan of "get to level 32, and then you can play the class you want to play".

[Avilan the Grey]

Eh. "You can get a bonus that isn't necessary by playing both" isn't even really a connection. You're not penalized for going straight single player, you're just slightly, ever so slightly rewarded for going multiplayer. that's fine.

---

I have to admit, the ferret does make a compelling case...


It was much worse before the patch. In unpatched ME3 you had to reach a much higher score (the patch lowered it to 3500 from 4500) and in combination with a lack of DLC's at the time, you had to actually struggle as a single player to get the "Shepard Lives" ending.

I love the Ferret. The birds are cool too.
I love TLII, the gameplay is just... better than DIII.

[Traab]

Which was only a concern if you actually ever logged into bnet. For those of us who never did, it never had an impact.

Of course, logging into bnet was highly discouraged by the incredibly toxic community which was, if anything, worse than the actual blizzard forums.

Not everyone wants to be social when playing video games. Some people use video games as a means of de-stressing from having to deal with people all day in the workplace. Some people like raiding, other people just want to kill a bunch of not-so-helpless pixels while mentally putting the faces of those who irritated them on the mobs.

This is what D1 and D2 were to me. For that matter, this is what TL2 is for me. I guess that's just not what D3 wants to be.

So because you and I dont play the multiplayer side of the game, blizzard should develop an offline mode that will eventually let in cheats and hacks because that doesnt effect us? I want an offline mode too, I dont want it at the expense of everyone else's experience. I hope they can figure out a way to make it work, because I would really like it if I didnt have to be connected to the internet to play the game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So because you and I dont play the multiplayer side of the game, blizzard should develop an offline mode that will eventually let in cheats and hacks because that doesnt effect us? I want an offline mode too, I dont want it at the expense of everyone else's experience. I hope they can figure out a way to make it work, because I would really like it if I didnt have to be connected to the internet to play the game.

Segregate online and offline play completely so you don't have the problems with hacks and cheats. If you log in online, you have one list of characters. If you log in offline, you have a completely different list, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

[Artanis]

nothing for the hackers to aid them figuring out how the server works.
I...actually, I hadn't considered that aspect. I basically thought the same way as Shneekey (i.e. completely segregate the two character lists), but if having any sort of offline character info would cause some sort of security hole, it would definitely be a reason to keep it online-only. Not necessarily a good reason, mind you, but a reason nonetheless.

[SiuiS]

It was much worse before the patch. In unpatched ME3 you had to reach a much higher score (the patch lowered it to 3500 from 4500) and in combination with a lack of DLC's at the time, you had to actually struggle as a single player to get the "Shepard Lives" ending.

I love the Ferret. The birds are cool too.
I love TLII, the gameplay is just... better than DIII.

I thought the Shepard Lives part was from Destroy, which means the thing you got for getting all those assets was an ending you wouldn't then choose anyway.

[Psyren]

Segregate online and offline play completely so you don't have the problems with hacks and cheats. If you log in online, you have one list of characters. If you log in offline, you have a completely different list, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Thing is, D2 had that - and they still hacked the online play too, due to the weakness Avilan mentioned. They would do purges of duped runes/SoJs and ban people, but they never could stop it completely.

But that was cold comfort for me when I wanted to play D3 in a hotel room or on a plane :smallfrown:

[Crow]

Disclaimer: I know nothing of these things.

What if every piece of gear/loot generated while playing online was generated with a multiplayer tag of some sort. Only loot with an MP tag would be equippable (or even present) while playing online.

I would love to try D3, as I loved the previous games, but I in no way want to play multiplayer, and my shoddy internet precludes online play.

[Avilan the Grey]

Segregate online and offline play completely so you don't have the problems with hacks and cheats. If you log in online, you have one list of characters. If you log in offline, you have a completely different list, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

They did that. It's called D2. And it made cheating possible, for the reasons I have explained.

Also, should have paid attention upstream. :smallsmile:


I thought the Shepard Lives part was from Destroy, which means the thing you got for getting all those assets was an ending you wouldn't then choose anyway.

Not sure what you mean here...?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thing is, D2 had that - and they still hacked the online play too, due to the weakness Avilan mentioned. They would do purges of duped runes/SoJs and ban people, but they never could stop it completely.

But that was cold comfort for me when I wanted to play D3 in a hotel room or on a plane :smallfrown:

The most common method of duping involved manipulating character data. Simply don't have offline character data on the computer, and you'll solve at least half of those problems.

The next most common method of duping involved exploiting a glitch in server tic rate, which shouldn't be present in D3.

If you really want to be paranoid? Completely segregate file data. Offline file data has a different obfuscation than the online stuff. That ought to stop 99% of the script kiddies. The rest already have alternate means of hacking that has nothing to do with access to data which offline play presents.

[SiuiS]

Disclaimer: I know nothing of these things.

What if every piece of gear/loot generated while playing online was generated with a multiplayer tag of some sort. Only loot with an MP tag would be equippable (or even present) while playing online.

I would love to try D3, as I loved the previous games, but I in no way want to play multiplayer, and my shoddy internet precludes online play.

That would just mean single player hacks would add a MP tag.

And try the demo! It will give you a taste without requiring Internet, I believe.



Not sure what you mean here...?

The "Shepard Lives" Easter egg was available after completing the game once. War assets unlocked Synthesis, which is not germane to the "Shepard Lives" Easter egg. War assets could allow that scene in addition to the standard play through the game again method, but that did the same thing either way; reward the player for playin two games' worth of content.

Or so I thought. Is this not correct?

[GloatingSwine]

The "Shepard Lives" Easter egg was available after completing the game once. War assets unlocked Synthesis, which is not germane to the "Shepard Lives" Easter egg. War assets could allow that scene in addition to the standard play through the game again method, but that did the same thing either way; reward the player for playin two games' worth of content.

Or so I thought. Is this not correct?

No, it was an extra scene which would play on the Destroy ending only if the player had 5000+EMS (or 4000 with a maxed paragon/renegade bar which allows you to save Anderson)

The extended cut lowered the requirements dramatically, because there are only around 7500 war assets available, and that's halved if you don't play multiplayer so you can't actually meet the requirements for that ending.

[Avilan the Grey]

No, it was an extra scene which would play on the Destroy ending only if the player had 5000+EMS (or 4000 with a maxed paragon/renegade bar which allows you to save Anderson)

The extended cut lowered the requirements dramatically, because there are only around 7500 war assets available, and that's halved if you don't play multiplayer so you can't actually meet the requirements for that ending.

This is one of the truly legitimate complaints to Bioware; they promised that the Multiplayer would NOT be needed to get the "best" ending, yet they did set the bar so high, that they had to patch it to make it viable.

That's not even a matter of oppinion, like the rest of the ending problems, but a pure frakkup.

[Psyren]

The most common method of duping involved manipulating character data. Simply don't have offline character data on the computer, and you'll solve at least half of those problems.

The next most common method of duping involved exploiting a glitch in server tic rate, which shouldn't be present in D3.

If you really want to be paranoid? Completely segregate file data. Offline file data has a different obfuscation than the online stuff. That ought to stop 99% of the script kiddies. The rest already have alternate means of hacking that has nothing to do with access to data which offline play presents.

I'm no expert, but how would you play offline if there was no character data offline? And having a completely different file structure for online and offline play doesn't sound feasible either.

All this armchair coding sounds great, but if it were really that simple wouldn't they have done it?

[Talderas]

I'm no expert, but how would you play offline if there was no character data offline? And having a completely different file structure for online and offline play doesn't sound feasible either.

All this armchair coding sounds great, but if it were really that simple wouldn't they have done it?

He's suggesting that cheat and hack ridden closed battle net was good enough.

[nooblade]

The most common method of duping involved manipulating character data. Simply don't have offline character data on the computer, and you'll solve at least half of those problems.

The next most common method of duping involved exploiting a glitch in server tic rate, which shouldn't be present in D3.

If you really want to be paranoid? Completely segregate file data. Offline file data has a different obfuscation than the online stuff. That ought to stop 99% of the script kiddies. The rest already have alternate means of hacking that has nothing to do with access to data which offline play presents.

Yup. But I wouldn't care if someone cheated in singleplayer, like cheat codes in the original Starcraft campaign. Why isn't separate battlenet data enough?

Also I wonder why I never saw any of the crazy haxed items available for single player like overflowing damage in D2 on battlenet. That would be way more profitable than duping some runes. It's not like the game had any moderators later in life. Probably they could get in somehow.

I vaguely remember the other thing was TPPK.

[Karoht]

Just because someone doesn't remember the hax, doesn't mean it never happened at all.

White armor
Town PvP hack
etc.

@Single Player Game
"A game you can play by yourself is a single player game"
I can play any MMO I choose by myself. Is it a single player game?
I can play Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with two people, having someone play as Tails. Is it a single player game?

[Psyren]

He's suggesting that cheat and hack ridden closed battle net was good enough.

I think you mean Open BNet, that was the one that had townkill and all kinds of other fun goodies. (Closed was the one that people played more or less legitimately, minus the runeduping.)

But the point is that the Open BNet/offline play files were used to reverse-engineer exploits that could be applied to Ladder play.



Also I wonder why I never saw any of the crazy haxed items available for single player like overflowing damage in D2 on battlenet.

Because they weren't actually creating hacked items on ladder (regularly, anyway.) Duping let you trick the server into thinking you had two when you had one, but you were still restricted to the items generated for ladder play. There were ways around that but those tended to get noticed if they were done too often.

Not that that mattered once people began duping FCR//+1 charms and Annis.

[Crow]

That would just mean single player hacks would add a MP tag.


Well just because it is there doesn't mean it has to be visible or even known. Hell, each piece could generate a unique serial tag of some sort.

I dunno. I just hate things that require connectivity.