Halfling paladin viable? Review please.

[Aasimar]

Hey folks.

I'm making a charisma based melee paladin. I thought I'd pick halfling as a race.

The idea is that she's 'evil' but in the sense of someone with good intentions who's gone too far, so in gameplay I'd pretty much play her as good until it came time to show mercy to enemies.

I was thinking she was your regular heroic paladin for some time, but after an encounter with an evil outsider (where she presumably won) some remnant has been slowly corrupting her from the inside.

Anyway, without further ado, here's the mechanics. I'm joining at level 8, and getting slightly reduced starting equipment (because the gm has been stingy with the other players so far) I'm getting a level+1 item, a level-1 item and gold enough for a level item (3400)

It's a multi-verrse game, but she's joining from the Forgottem Realms portion of it.

She's a worshiper of Torm, but with her own decisively more militaristic and vengeful interpretation (hence her Heretic background and evil alignment)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bree Halfmoon, level 8
Halfling, Paladin
Heretic (Stealth Class Skill)
Theme: Mercenary

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 20

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 14, DEX 10, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 16

AC: 27 Fort: 18 Ref: 19 Will: 21
HP: 71 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +7, Intimidate +16, Perception +12, Religion +8, Stealth +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +3, Athletics +1, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +3, Insight +7, Nature +7, Streetwise +11, Thievery +3

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Mercenary Attack: Takedown Strike
Halfling Racial Power: Second Chance
Paladin Feature: Divine Mettle
Paladin Feature: Divine Strength
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Paladin Feature: Lay on Hands
Paladin Attack 1: Virtuous Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin Attack 1: Majestic Halo
Paladin Utility 2: Virtue
Paladin Attack 3: Righteous Smite
Paladin Attack 5: Unyielding Faith
Paladin Utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Paladin Attack 7: Blade of Light

FEATS
Level 1: Berserker's Fury (train perception)
Level 2: Lost in the Crowd (+2 AC when adjacent to 2+ enemies larger than self)
Level 4: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 6: Devoted Paladin
Level 8: Virtuous Recovery

ITEMS
Holy Symbol x1
Plate Armor of Durability +2 x1
Vicious Scimitar +2 x1
Heavy Shield x1
Healer's Brooch +1 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Belt of Vigor (heroic tier) x1
Potion of Healing 4x

So, things I'm considering.

I really like multiclassing into barbarian, both for flavor reasons and for the perception training, but I can't help but think that Headsmans chop would be an excellent combo with the mercenary takedown attack. (Takedown attack knocks someone down that I just hit with a melee attack, headsman's chop gives +5 damage against prone targets) So maybe barbarian multiclassing or perhaps Devoted Paladin could wait.

I'm also having a bit of trouble finding a cool weapon for her, as a halfling she needs a one handed non-versatile weapon to use a shield, and I don't think Rapier fits the concept I have in mind.

That pretty much leaves the Scimitar (a cool weapon, to be sure, just not sure about it still)

Finally, I'm having some trouble deciding on a paragon path.

Questing Knight perhaps? Halfing Scoundrel? Contract Killer?

There aren't many charisma-melee friendly paragon paths.

I'd be interested in ideas, even if they required a different multiclass.

[shamgar001]

Other options for weapons would be the serrated pick or rapier (MME). The former is a larger damage die size over the scimitar, and the later is an additional +1 proficiency.

Picks are generally regarded as having horrible feat support, but it you aren't planning to take a lot of weapon-specific feats anyway, Pick Expertise would be better than Light Blade Expertise for a Halfling with 12 Dex.

[ghost_warlock]

What sources are being allowed for the game?

If you're allowed to choose from the Scales of War backgrounds it would free up a feat: Silent Hunter gives you the ability to train both Perception and Stealth as class skills and gives a +1 bonus to both. Alternately, Auspicious Birth/Born Under a Bad Sign will give you more hp.

Questing Knight is a fairly solid paragon path so it might be your best option. The 11th-level attack is a damaging AoE with a multi-mark and the features and 12th-level utility are great for shedding or outright denying some annoying conditions. The only "weak" part, imo, is the level 20 attack, but you could do far worse than a 4[W] vs. Will weapon attack that weakens (save ends).

As for options, you could also use a carrikal (brutal 2 axe). Or, you could take advantage of being small, turn yourself into a mounted character, and grab a lance (it has the 'small' trait so you can use it one-handed). In such a case, check with your DM to see if they'll let you take the Fey Beast Tamer theme and use the companion from that for a mount (not sure it's strictly legal by RAW, but I've heard of some DMs allowing it for small-sized characters).

[Aasimar]

A Carrikal is dark sun specific, right?

Good thoughts though, I'll consider that.

[tcrudisi]

With that starting Charisma score, I'd argue that you should go Sorc. Just nuke everything to death. It's better to kill several things at once than just one thing at a time. If this is point buy, though, maybe you could take a point or two out of Charisma and put it into your other stats? If the trend on point buy continued, I'm betting those last 2 points cost you something like 40 or 50 points, which could really be used to buffer up those other defenses.

But honestly, with that Charisma score, you could play any race and it'd be viable as a Chaladin.

[Aasimar]

har har (obviously a typo there, starting score is 16, race brings it up to 18 and levels 4 and 8 bring it up to 20)

But my last two times playing 4th edition have been as a sorcerer, so I'd really rather stick with the current concept.

[tcrudisi]

har har (obviously a typo there, starting score is 16, race brings it up to 18 and levels 4 and 8 bring it up to 20)

But my last two times playing 4th edition have been as a sorcerer, so I'd really rather stick with the current concept.

And you edited it! Now everyone who reads this is going to think I'm crazy. :p

I wasn't seriously suggesting Sorc, anyway. If one gets to start off with a Charisma score of 116, though, then it's definitely where I'd go.

As for the Paladin, I actually think it looks pretty good. The primary stat is 2 points lower than I'm personally comfortable with, but I'm not sure how to fix it considering your other required stats and goals for the character. However, and this is important, don't use a scimitar. You are already down 1-2 points in attack bonus vs someone who starts with a post-racial primary stat of 18 or 20. Choosing a scimitar makes it 2-3. I cannot recommend a +3 proficiency bonus weapon highly enough. While +1 to hit isn't much, it does add up. And what you are experiencing is the inverse: While -1 isn't much, -3 is a lot.

Take note that it's actually really hard to use Headsman's Chop in practice. You knock an opponent down? On their turn, they stand back up. You then knock them prone again. They stand back up. Note how you are never getting the +5 bonus damage in all of this. Instead, for it to really work, you need allies who can prone the enemy (typically).

Since you are going Cha/Wis, the obvious choice for a paragon path is Hospitaler. I'm too lazy to look up others at the moment, but Hospitaler would be a damn good choice for you.

[Aasimar]

Cool, thanks for the advice.

I'm not too worried about the attack bonus. I don't think anyone in the group splurged on an 18 pre-racial primary stat, so yes, with this build I'm 2 points behind an absolutely maxed out attack mod. (3 if you count stuff like fighters getting +1 to one type of weapon)

Is there any weapon with a +3 other than Rapier that is a military one handed non-verstile weapon? (I just really envision this person brutally chopping people, or smashing them with a bludgeon, rather than sticking them)

There's the shortsword of course, but that's even worse.

Edit: I'd also be open to a superior weapon, though I'd need to find a feat to cut

[ghost_warlock]

A Carrikal is dark sun specific, right?

Good thoughts though, I'll consider that.

It's from Darksun, yes, but I'm not sure why any DM would really take issue with that. Strapping a jawbone onto a thick stick and calling it an axe isn't exactly a novel, high-tech strategy after all. :smalltongue:


Is there any weapon with a +3 other than Rapier that is a military one handed non-verstile weapon? (I just really envision this person brutally chopping people, or smashing them with a bludgeon, rather than sticking them)

There's the shortsword of course, but that's even worse.

Edit: I'd also be open to a superior weapon, though I'd need to find a feat to cut

I think you're pretty much stuck with the rapier if you want a +3 proficiency bonus, yeah. :smallfrown:

Another thing to consider: if the campaign is planning on going into Paragon tier, you should consider multiclassing warlock. Doesn't really matter which feat you take to do so, though the star-pact variants are particularly flavorful. The reason I suggest this is that it would open you up to take the warlock feat Starfire Womb, which lets you make a saving throw every time you deal radiant damage (and you should be dealing a lot of radiant damage as a paladin). Combine this with the paladin feat, Hero's Poise, and you're consistently generating massive saving throw bonuses for your entire party.

[Aasimar]

Oh, nice idea, thanks.

I COULD of course forgo the shield, opening up a lot of +3 options (especially if I were also willing to splurge on a superior weapon, Triple headed flail or Bastard Sword then become options)

But I do kinda think I need the shield. It's all pros and cons...

What do you think? Shield or better weapon?

[ghost_warlock]

Honestly, the last few paladins I've built just learned to make do with a warhammer so I could grab a Crusader's Weapon (level 9 item). If you're looking to get into radiant abuse, you're pretty much stuck with a hammer or mace of some sort until you can get a Radiant Weapon (level 15 item).

[Damon_Tor]

Oh, nice idea, thanks.

I COULD of course forgo the shield, opening up a lot of +3 options (especially if I were also willing to splurge on a superior weapon, Triple headed flail or Bastard Sword then become options)

But I do kinda think I need the shield. It's all pros and cons...

What do you think? Shield or better weapon?

Well if you multiclass fighter instead of barbarian that makes to eligible for the "small warrior's defense" feat, which gives you a +2 shield bonus to AC and reflex while wielding a versatile weapon in both hands. Then you can have the benefits of having a shield while still using that longsword.

[Aasimar]

Now THAT is a good suggestion..

I'll have to consider that very seriously.

[tcrudisi]

Cool, thanks for the advice.

I'm not too worried about the attack bonus. I don't think anyone in the group splurged on an 18 pre-racial primary stat, so yes, with this build I'm 2 points behind an absolutely maxed out attack mod. (3 if you count stuff like fighters getting +1 to one type of weapon)

Is there any weapon with a +3 other than Rapier that is a military one handed non-verstile weapon? (I just really envision this person brutally chopping people, or smashing them with a bludgeon, rather than sticking them)

You are 3 points behind normals, 4 points behind Fighters and Birds, and 5 points behind Rogues

Note that the following calculations are ignoring level (+4 for everyone at level 8), enhancement bonus (+2 magical weapon for everyone), Expertise feat (+1 for everyone), and combat advantage (+2) because they are all the same for everyone and don't impact the math.

Your Paladin = 4 (primary stat) + 2 (prof bonus) = +6 attack bonus

Barbarian with Str 22 and Big Sword = 6 (primary stat) + 3 (prof bonus) = +9 attack bonus (Note: Many Barbarians are chargers for another inherent +1 to accuracy)

Fighter with Str 22 and Longsword = 6 (primary stat) + 3 (prof bonus) + 1 (class feature) = +10 attack bonus

Rogue with Dex 22 and Dagger = 6 (primary stat) + 3 (prof bonus) + 1 (class feature) + 1 (Nimble Blade) = +11 attack bonus

The WTF OMG I can't believe I'm seeing this (and no, this one really isn't serious for various reasons): Kenku Rogue with Dex 22 that multiclassed Avenger and focuses on charging: 6 (primary stat) + 3 (prof bonus) +1 (class feature) + 1 (Nimble Blade) + 1 (racial feature) + 1 (charging) + ~5 (the approximate value of rolling twice) = +18 attack bonus

In other words: -2 from stat, -1 from weapon. You are -3 behind an optimized character. -1 is fine, -2 is tolerable, -3 is when you'll really start to feel it.

The solution? Use a rapier and refluff it to something else. Make sure your DM is aware that you are using a rapier, but just describe it as a scimitar. It really is that easy. Or, make up something new that your weapon looks like. When people go, "Oh cool, where'd you find that from?" you can cackle and say that you made up a new weapon. Or whatever. Refluffing can help here. You don't want to go down that slippery slope of "it's only 1 to my attack bonus". Halflings are sub-par Paladins for a reason: To keep up with the Cha-primary classes, you need to make some sacrifices. As it is right now, you aren't keeping up with the typical "cha-primary" Paladins. I'm not saying you have to be optimized (Cha 20 and +3 prof weapon), but I am saying that there's an average power level and you are slightly behind it with your attack bonus.

As a defender, use that shield. You are 100% a defender with this character. Use the shield. The bump to your AC and Reflexes is too valuable.

Small Warrior's Defense is good ... but not for you. (Note that it doesn't give a shield bonus unless my memory is wrong. It just gives an untyped bonus.)

Benefits: You gain +2 AC/Ref. It doesn't count as a shield bonus.
Cons: 2 feats (Multiclass Fighter, Small Warrior Defense) to break even. It doesn't count as a shield bonus. (Yeah, that's both a pro and con.) You want to use a bigger sword? That's now 3 feats ... to effectively get +1 damage per W attack. That's absolute rubbish. Three feats for +1 damage per W attack. No, thanks.

Obviously if there are other things to MC Fighter for, then its worth considering. But not for Small Warrior Defense alone.

[Aasimar]

My charisma is 20, not 18 (16 pre racial, +2 for race, +2 more for levels)

So, +5 for ability +2 for proficiency = +7

This is 3 points behind someone who put a pre racial 18 into his primary and picked a +3 weapon and has a +1 feature like a fighter. But it's my experience that hardly anyone does that. Nobody in this group anyway.


P.s. And the approximate value of rolling twice, picking better, is +3.5 (I played a starwars game where this was a huge discussion)

[tcrudisi]

My charisma is 20, not 18 (16 pre racial, +2 for race, +2 more for levels)

So, +5 for ability +2 for proficiency = +7

This is 3 points behind someone who put a pre racial 18 into his primary and picked a +3 weapon and has a +1 feature like a fighter. But it's my experience that hardly anyone does that. Nobody in this group anyway.


P.s. And the approximate value of rolling twice, picking better, is +3.5 (I played a starwars game where this was a huge discussion)

Oh, so it is! My apologies. Then yeah, you are right at the limit then.

As for the approximate value of rolling twice? This is where things get interesting.

You are correct that the approximate value is 3.5 (I believe it's technically 3.85, but I digress, and I'll use 3.5). However - when it comes to attack rolls, some things must be remembered. 1.) You are aiming for a target number. If your target number is 8, then it doesn't matter if you roll a 1 or a 7, you still miss. Ditto for if you roll an 8 or a 19. There's no practical difference. 2.) Crit chances.

So what happens? Well, by getting to roll twice, you greatly improve your odds of hitting that target number. Of course, whether that target number is easy to hit or hard to hit helps determine how much better rolling twice really is. After they worked out the math, they determined that rolling twice was worth about +5 because of these factors.

For example, if you hit on an 11 (the common assumption, especially with non-optimized characters), then you have a 50% chance of hitting, right? Well, that means that 50% of the time your double roll will come into play. Half of those times it will turn a miss into a hit. That means that it's value is 25%. If you were to express this in another way, how do you increase your chance to hit on a d20? You add 5 to your roll. Each number is 5%, so to increase your chance to hit by 25%, you simply add 5. (This is to say nothing of the +4.75% or so chance to crit.)

[Leewei]

P.s. And the approximate value of rolling twice, picking better, is +3.5 (I played a starwars game where this was a huge discussion)

Huh! I'd intuitively thought it was around +5 or so.

Spreadsheeting out higher of 2d20, I see the average is 13.83, compared to 10.5 for 1d20. This means an average of +3.33. This is less than the 3.5 because it factors in the small chance of rolling a 20 on the first d20.

Unless the PC is trying to hit a very hard target, I'm thinking average bonus isn't quite answering the right question, though. The effect of 2d20 looks to boil down to two things:

1) How often a critical hit occurs. For crit-fishing, 2d20 nearly doubles the chances of critting, which is a substantial benefit.

2) How often a PC will hit a target number. This looks a lot like the +3.33, but it isn't.

If a PC will hit a target on an 11+ on 1d20, it's a 75% certainty of hitting, rather than 50%. That's equal to +5.
If an attack lands on 9+, the odds of hitting are 84%, rather than 60%, or +4.8.
If an attack lands on 13+, the odds are 64%, rather than 40%, or +4.8.

Underlying math and full table:Basically, the benefit boils down to [Hit Chance] * (1 - [Hit Chance]).
{TABLE]DC|2d20 Benefit
2|+0.95
3|+1.8
4|+2.55
5|+3.2
6|+3.75
7|+4.2
8|+4.55
9|+4.8
10|+4.95
11|+5
12|+4.95
13|+4.8
14|+4.55
15|+4.2
16|+3.75
17|+3.2
18|+2.55
19|+1.8
20|+0.95[/TABLE]

This averages to 3.5, however the least benefit occurs at the extremes, which will not occur in most campaigns. A hyper-optimized, buffed PC may approach this, as could a grossly over- or under-powered encounter. The average benefit for the 7-13 DC is +4.8. For 6-14, it is +4.67. These numbers are a better representation of what 2d20 does for the vast majority of rolls.

The benefit follows a curve, with the peak right in the middle. For most situations, the benefit of 2d20 will be somewhere around or a bit above +4.5.

[Yakk]

Another way to look at it is to measure (chance to hit with 2d20)/(chance to hit with 1d20).

In this case, you'll notice that the effect is maximal on hard-to-hit targets.

However, +X to hit is even better on hard-to-hit targets. (If you need a 20 before, +3 to hit multiplies your chance to hit by x4, while roll-twice only (basically) doubles it).

At target number 11, roll-twice boosts your hit rate by x1.5. At target number 2+, roll-twice boosts your hit rate by x1.05. At target number 20+, roll-twice boosts your hit rate by x1.95. In general, at target number T+ to hit, roll-twice boosts your hit rate by x(0.95+T/20)).

[Echobeats]

What is the effect on your maths of the fact that sometimes, you can only hit by critting because the target's defence exceeds your attack bonus more than 20? In that case, a natural 20 means a hit, but a natural 15 with an additional +5 bonus would miss.

(Yes, I this did happen to me once.)

[Leewei]

What is the effect on your maths of the fact that sometimes, you can only hit by critting because the target's defence exceeds your attack bonus more than 20? In that case, a natural 20 means a hit, but a natural 15 with an additional +5 bonus would miss.

(Yes, I this did happen to me once.)

That situation is very far out on the fringe.

2d20 increases the chance of a natural 20 from 5% to 9.75%. That's a 4.75% benefit.

By comparison, increasing the odds to hit a target to where a 19-20 would hit it is slightly better -- 10% odds, or a 5% benefit.

In this case, you'd need to know the DC in order to figure the number. If it is a 22 DC with no bonus, you'd need a +3 (allowing a hit on a 19-20) to make the bonus slightly better than (but roughly on par with) the added d20.