Grappler Character

[tricktroller]

Ok Folks I have heard all of the crap talking about making grapplers but I had a few thoughts.

Monk 2/Warblade 4/ something x

Ok so featwise

Flaw 1 Natural Weaponry (AEG feat unarmed from D6 to D8)
Flaw 2 Improved Natural Weaponry ( AEG Feat d8 to 2d6)
Human Jotunbrud
1st Two weapon Fighting
Monk1 Improved Grapple
Monk2 Power attack
3rd Scorpion's grasp
6th Flying Kick

So basically what you do at 6th level is charge using battle leader's charge, you run up punch somebody for 2d6(unarmed)+1d6(punishing stance +1d12 (flying kick) +Str +10 (Battle leader's charge. When you hit you grapple and then use crushing weight of the mountain to inflict a otn of damage on your opponent. What do you think?

[danzibr]

Look into Blackblood Cultist. Throw some Totemist in.

Edit: To be constructive, what level are you starting at? Ending?

[Person_Man]

Natural Weaponry, Imp Natural Weaponry, Jotunbrud, Two weapon Fighting, and Flying Kick are considered weak choices, because they provide fairly small and/or inefficient benefits.

Monk is also considered terrible for a huge variety of reasons, though a 1 or 2 level dip isn't the end of the world if you can get your unarmed strike to stack with your other class features. If you want to use a Monk base, consider Monk 1 or 2/Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue 18 or19, with the Tashalatora Feat. It allows Monk levels stack with a psionic class to determine unarmed damage. Secrets of Sarlona.

If you're taking Warblade for Giant's Stance, note that it has a "maximum Large" limitation to it, which means that it sucks. The Jotunbrud Feat has a similar limitation, in that you specifically count as Large for opposed checks, not one size larger.

For Power Attack, you generally want a full BAB build. Giving up 1 point isn't the end of the world. But if you're doing a good job optimizing your Grapple, you shouldn't need Power Attack, because your unarmed strike or natural attacks should be doing a ton of damage on their own.

Basic Grapple optimization is actually really simple. Increase your actual and/or effective size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) and get a lot of attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). If you prefer to be Medium, then be a Totemist instead, which gets a bunch of Grapple bonuses from soulmelds. And that's pretty much it. Everything else that you put on top of it is basically gravy. And in general, you don't want to over invest in a Grapple combo (or any one combo), because plenty of enemies can't be Grappled, being Grappled puts you at a disadvantage to all enemies you're not in a Grapple with, and if you're capable of killing an enemy in 1 round with a high damage combo, you don't need to Grapple his dead body.

[Immabozo]

Be a large Mind Flayer (I forget real name) and then get war hulk 10, war shaper 2 (or 3?) for 5' longer reach, willing deformity:tall for 5 feet longer reach and then grapple everything in 20' at a huge bonus and suck out their brains. Everything. At the same time.

[kabreras]

Problem with grappler chars at medium to high level is that they are countered with a single spell or item.

[rollforeigninit]

If you can swing and some Psionics, add in PsiWar or maybe War Mind Prc levels. Add in grip of iron for fun. Maybe even enlarge yourself. Try it, you know you want to...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Power Attack, it gives a bonus to all melee damage rolls, and rolling a grapple check to deal unarmed strike damage is a melee damage roll. A grapple check is not an attack roll though, so you don't take the power attack penalty to those grapple checks to deal damage. WotC has officially stated that this shouldn't work because you're getting 'something for nothing' but I can't find the article now. However, they have printed monsters specifically designed to exploit this, such as the Frost Giant Mauler in Frostburn. Also keep in mind that you'll still take the Power Attack penalty to any attack rolls you would happen to make until your next turn, such as if your opponent escapes the grapple and provokes an AoO moving away from you it reduces your chances of hitting him to reestablish the grapple.

Get the feats Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) and Deepspawn from Lords of Madness, each gives an untyped +2 bonus to grapple checks.

Psychic Warrior is the go-to choice because Grip of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm) + Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) is just so good, especially if you use Persistent Power with them (3.0 Psionics Handbook, still valid for 3.5 just like any other unupdated 3.0 content, found here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf)).

[tricktroller]

What if he had a permanent anti magic field around him? Like an item that created a 10-20' field around him? Would that prevent him from dropping at mid to high level? Could you do something like that with an item familiar?

I plan to start him at 6th and go from there to 20. Nat weaponry and imp. nat. weaponry allow me to ignore my unarmed damage afterwards because each of my UAS is a greatsword, I dual wield them and get full strength on both attacks. I plan to take two weapon pounce at 12th level and run up hitting things for 2d6+2d6+1d6+1d6+1d12+1d12+2x Strength +20 while using the battle leader's charge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Items that generate AMF don't really work, because the item turns itself off for being in its own AMF. Of course, it immediately turns right back on again because the AMF goes away when it turns off, which then turns itself back off again... It basically just endlessly flickers off and on and doesn't really accomplish anything.

While Freedom of Movement is definitely a problem for a grappler, very few opponents will actually have it so you should still typically have someone to grapple with every encounter. Plus AMF would be more of a hindrance than anything on nearly every character, not to mention a hindrance to your party.

Get armor spikes or a gauntlet that's +1 with the Smoking property from Lords of Darkness. It costs a +1 bonus and it fills the 5-ft. square you're in (but only one 5-ft. square if you're bigger) with noxious smoke equivalent to a Stinking Cloud that gives you concealment, but you're unaffected by it and can see through it. The cloud always follows you, so that will make anything you're grappling save vs nauseated every round, plus anyone attacking you from outside the grapple will suffer a 20% miss chance.

[tricktroller]

Biff, how do you figure that it does that? The spell doesn't shut itself off..... So ostensibly an item that generates the effect wouldn't be shut off by itself or if it did would still be effective by oscillating off and on.

[Jeff the Green]

If you're taking Scorpion's grasp and levels in Warblade anyway, consider a couple levels of Bloodstorm Blade. That way you can throw your light weapons and start grapples at range.

More seriously, psychic warrior's one of the better choices. If you have some way to counteract the BAB loss, a Totemist/Psywar/Soulcaster would be pretty awesome.

[Immabozo]

If you're taking Scorpion's grasp and levels in Warblade anyway, consider a couple levels of Bloodstorm Blade. That way you can throw your light weapons and start grapples at range.

More seriously, psychic warrior's one of the better choices. If you have some way to counteract the BAB loss, a Totemist/Psywar/Soulcaster would be pretty awesome.

skilled weapon enchant gives 3/4 BAB progression if you have worse, while wielding it

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biff, how do you figure that it does that? The spell doesn't shut itself off..... So ostensibly an item that generates the effect wouldn't be shut off by itself or if it did would still be effective by oscillating off and on.

A magic item does not function in an antimagic field, even if the source of that AMF is itself. It would indeed be oscillating off and on, but that means there's a chance that an opponent's Freedom of Movement effect is active while the AMF is switched off when you're trying to grapple, and the item will be of no benefit at least half the time. Considering a continuous AMF item would probably be priced at (spell level 6 x caster level 11 x 2,000 gp x 1.5 for duration) = 198,000 gp, a random 50% chance that it's of no benefit at any given time just makes it not worth the cost.

A good DM will probably make the primary spellcaster BBEG have FoM or some other means of avoiding being completely trounced by a grapple, but he'll also be sure to include a burly henchman in that battle who really needs to be controlled by a strong grappler if there happens to be one in the party. AMF and overcoming FoM is not something that's required to make a character successful at grappling, unless your DM is a jerk and likes to make PCs useless.

[tricktroller]

It has happened before. My non uber charger was nerfed for the entire fight. Which is why I like to have ways to counteract the counters. So how about something that would allow me to cast amf on myself?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It has happened before. My non uber charger was nerfed for the entire fight. Which is why I like to have ways to counteract the counters. So how about something that would allow me to cast amf on myself?

You could just get UMD and a Staff of AMF, or substitute UMD with a dip in a class that has that on its spell list. Or cast it yourself via Runescarred Berserker or Divine Crusader (Magic or Protection domain) or similar. You could even get Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV) and make a Spellcraft check when casting that to exclude yourself and the rest of your party from its effect. There would basically be a hole in the AMF that's your character's exact shape, so your spells and items wouldn't be negated but your opponents' magic would, even if they're in the same space as you are.

[Jeff the Green]

skilled weapon enchant gives 3/4 BAB progression if you have worse, while wielding it

That's... really handy. Unfortunately it doesn't help in this case. It only applies to attacks with that weapon, which excludes grapples.

[Immabozo]

That's... really handy. Unfortunately it doesn't help in this case. It only applies to attacks with that weapon, which excludes grapples.

Really? Damn! Well I found it and loved it! I just wish I had found it earlier for my war hulk! A no-BAB class that instead gets +2 str every level, suddenly has 3/4ths BAB!

[prufock]

Rather than an item of Antimagic Field, which will also hurt you, an item of Dimensional Lock - such as a ring you can turn on and off - will keep the enemy from teleporting out of your grasp. The downside is going to be the cost. At earlier levels, an item of Dimensional Anchor would be a good substitute.

Otherwise, some sort of contingency item such as a Glyph Seal with dispel magic on it could be useful, and would also deal with Freedom of Movement.

You'll probably want a Ghost Shroud or Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting to deal with incorporeal creatures.

[tricktroller]

Alright Biff, help me write up a grappler god who can use extraordinary spell aim to just amf around him but leave himself and his magic items free of the effect.

I'd like to keep the feats nat weaponry and imp nat weaponry so I can punch for greatswords with monk unarmed damage added in. Other than that I don't really care I just want to grapple anything to death.

[Vaz]

Ardent 9/City Brawler Barbarian 2/Black Blood Cultist 8/Ardent +1

Ardent 10 Dominant Time Mantle, and Magic Mantle. The rest of the Mantles are up to you.
Requires Linked Power and Metapower (Linked Synchronicity), Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Practised Manifester and Overchannel

Magic Mantle ensures that Magic is IDENTICAL to Psionics (rather than standard Transparency; so it means that stuff which affects Psionics affects Spells); Manifest the Null Psionics field, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to ignore oneself.

You're a Black Blood Cultist; Metamorphose into something ugly with lots of Natural Attacks (Manifester Level 17 should do it for you). You need 9 Feats to do so if your DM rules that the City Brawler Barbarian is not a viable option (being Dragon Mag and everything).

[tricktroller]

Could you do it without Psionics? I think in all 3 of the groups I play with I have seen 2 psionic characters and no more than 3 psionic encounters. If not that's cool.

[danzibr]

Ardent 9/City Brawler Barbarian 2/Black Blood Cultist 8/Ardent +1

Ardent 10 Dominant Time Mantle, and Magic Mantle. The rest of the Mantles are up to you.
Requires Linked Power and Metapower (Linked Synchronicity), Improved Unarmed Strike, Track, Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Practised Manifester and Overchannel

Magic Mantle ensures that Magic is IDENTICAL to Psionics (rather than standard Transparency; so it means that stuff which affects Psionics affects Spells); Manifest the Null Psionics field, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to ignore oneself.

You're a Black Blood Cultist; Metamorphose into something ugly with lots of Natural Attacks (Manifester Level 17 should do it for you). You need 9 Feats to do so if your DM rules that the City Brawler Barbarian is not a viable option (being Dragon Mag and everything).
On a (mostly) unrelated note, this is a great cheesy way to get a good boost to your Astral Constructs by taking Artifice and Creation domains (given Metacreativity (Creation) is treated as Conjuration (Creation)). Then this is related because... AC's make great grapplers ;)

[Vaz]

Could you do it without Psionics? I think in all 3 of the groups I play with I have seen 2 psionic characters and no more than 3 psionic encounters. If not that's cool.

No sure on the skill points, but;

Barb 3/Monk 2/BBC 8/Ur Priest 6/Contemplative 1 = 20.

Requires;
Track (IUS from Monk)
Iron Will (Otyugh Hole makes it easier)
Spell Focus (Evil)
Extraordinary Spell Aim
Keeper of Forbidden Lore (for Spellcraft)

Skills
Know (Nat) 2
Survival 8
Bluff 6
Know (Arcane) 5
Know (Religion) 8 (13 for Contemplative)
Know (Planes) 5
Spellcraft 8

Assuming Int 10, you have 20 skill points available from your Monk+Barbarian class levels, which gets you your requisite 8 skill points in survival. I believe with Monk and Keeper of Forbidden Lore you should also have the requisite Skill points to make it work. You'll need to advance your Caster Level, Practised Spellcaster and Consumptive Field nets you CL16 for 2hr 20 AMF.

[tricktroller]

Any way to make this character a good guy?