Freedom of movement worth it?

[Invader]

I'm thinking about dropping 40k on my armor with the freedom of movement enchant from the MiC bbut I'm wondering if it's really worth it at 12th level to spend half my wbl when I could get so much else instead.

Thoughts?

[SciChronic]

its generally a bad idea to spend more than 1/4 of your WBL on a single item. That said, freedom of movement is a very useful thing to have, but there are other ways to get it.

[Shining Wrath]

What is your DM like?
Some DM's would respond to that by never throwing another movement-restricting foe at you again, ever. Money wasted as they just go around your shiny new toy.
Others would continue to throw a variety of monsters at you and sometimes freedom of movement would be full of win.
Having said that, armor is usually the most expensive way to get X. Normally if you can get X in a different slot it will cost 2/3 or less. E.G., compare adding resistance to armor to a cloak of resistance.

[Optimator]

You should provide more info on your character and setting if you want a good answer.

Having said that, FoM is one of the best buffs in the game and has been since previous editions.

[Gemini476]

What is your DM like?
Some DM's would respond to that by never throwing another movement-restricting foe at you again, ever. Money wasted as they just go around your shiny new toy.
Others would continue to throw a variety of monsters at you and sometimes freedom of movement would be full of win.
Having said that, armor is usually the most expensive way to get X. Normally if you can get X in a different slot it will cost 2/3 or less. E.G., compare adding resistance to armor to a cloak of resistance.

If your DM never includes foes who use grappling/solid fog/etc. due to you getting an item of Freedom of Movement, has the item not already served its purpose?

Oh, and I remember that there's a decently priced ring of FoM. Might want to check that out.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You could drop 12K on a Vest of Free Movement (MIC). For a swift activation, get FoM for 3 rounds 3/day. Should be enough to bust you out of most situations until you can afford a more permanent solution.

[Invader]

What is your DM like?
Some DM's would respond to that by never throwing another movement-restricting foe at you again, ever. Money wasted as they just go around your shiny new toy.
Others would continue to throw a variety of monsters at you and sometimes freedom of movement would be full of win.
Having said that, armor is usually the most expensive way to get X. Normally if you can get X in a different slot it will cost 2/3 or less. E.G., compare adding resistance to armor to a cloak of resistance.

Actually the armor is the cheapest way to get it continuously at 36k,e the extra 4respond is for a wildling clasp. A ring is a flat 40k but doesn't offer me the added AC.

[eggynack]

It generally depends on your character. That information generally indicates how often you're going to get stuck in FoM requiring situations, how important it will be that you get out of those situations, and how capable you are of escaping without FoM. For example, let's look at a wizard.

They tend to get stuck in FoM requiring situations quite a bit, because they're capable of creating their own effects that make it useful, and because grappling is generally efficient against them compared to other characters. However, unlike a melee guy, the wizard is not often on the front line, and will therefore not usually be a party to these effects in the immediate sense. The enemy's black tentacles and giant bear will often be 50 feet away, so the enemy will have to consciously choose you, which they might.

As for how important it is that they escape, I'd put it at "very" for grappling situations, and "somewhat" for non-grappling situations. Wizards can often effect the world, even when trapped in the middle of a fog. The situations you need to escape from are the one's where it's difficult or impossible to case, and an item of FoM would help you with those.

As for how easy it is for a wizard to escape these effects naturally, they're obviously one of the best at it in the game. Between heart of water and various teleportation effects, the wizard is generally going to be quite efficient at leaving most of these situations.

Based on that analysis, I'd say that a wizard would very much enjoy an FoM effect, but it's non-essential. I'd put a higher priority on it if the character is specializing in BFC effects, as well as if the character is often closing to short or touch range with his enemies. You can run this analysis with any class, and it's also worth taking party into account. For example, if you're a fighter and your party mate is a wizard, you are constantly in range of grapples, and you're threatened by your own party's BFC effects. That makes the ability more important than if you were in an all fighter party.

On a final note, why are you looking into the armor rather than the ring? I guess that's fine if you have tons of desired ring effects, and don't want any armor enhancements, but the ring seems generally better.

[Invader]

You could drop 12K on a Vest of Free Movement (MIC). For a swift activation, get FoM for 3 rounds 3/day. Should be enough to bust you out of most situations until you can afford a more permanent solution.

This was my first choice and probably the way I'll go I was just weighing cost/benefit of having it continuously.

[eggynack]

Ah, a druid? That class has possibly more ways of getting freedom of movement than a wizard does, and probably doesn't need the effect. You already have both heart of water and freedom of movement on your list, and getting out of grapples is significantly easier with wild shape. You're also often high above the battlefield, and are thus pretty inaccessible by most effects that'd require it. I would only pick up an item of freedom of movement if I were planning to shoot large quantities of BFC, and then wade into melee range. If you're not doing all of that, I don't quite see the point. Just plop a heart of water onto yourself at the beginning of the adventuring day, and call it a day.

[Firechanter]

The Ring of FoM also costs 40K, just like the armour it seems. It's actually a bargain; the same item created with the DMG guidelines would cost well over 80K.

That said, I'd aim to get it at level 14-15, when it actually eats up "only" ~25% of your WBL.

Oh and as for "armour or ring": I'd _definitely_ get the ring. The armour property is a trap; it's a +5 bonus so it costs you 36K _only_ if you never ever put any other property on it. Add just a single other property, for example things like Blurring or Death Ward, and you'll find yourself paying through the nose.

Compare:
+1 Armour with FoM, Blurring, Death Ward; total: +8 = 64K
+1 Armour with Blurring, Death Ward and a Ring of FoM = 49K

Swordsaged:
I didn't realize at first you are a Druid. That being so: forget the item. Items granting the effects of spells are mere crutches for those puny mundanes who are not awesome enough to cast said spells themselves.

[Invader]

Ah, a druid? That class has possibly more ways of getting freedom of movement than a wizard does, and probably doesn't damage he effect. You already have both heart of water and freedom of movement on your list, and getting out of grapples is significantly easier with wild shape. You're also often high above the battlefield, and are thus pretty inaccessible by most effects that'd require it. I would only pick up an item of freedom of movement if I were planning to shoot large quantities of BFC, and then wade into melee range. If you're not doing all of that, I don't quite see the point. Just plop a heart of water onto yourself at the beginning of the adventuring day, and call it a day.

Werebear actually. Right now with my build I have reach, increased speed, and short range teleportation. My goal is to be highly mobile melee damage.

[tyckspoon]

This was my first choice and probably the way I'll go I was just weighing cost/benefit of having it continuously.

I'd go with Heart of Water at the start of the day and picking up a Third Eye: Freedom (1/day Immediate Freedom of Movement, but only for 1 round. On the plus side it's dirt cheap and uses the rarely-occupied Face slot.) That gives you two ways to quickly trigger Freedom of Movement, and if you think you're going to need it for a longer time period than those provide you can use the shorter duration effect to cast the actual spell... so, for a Druid, I don't think it's worth the cost to buy a continuous item. If you still want to spend a lot on a useful immunity package, I'd look at getting Soulfire (+4 value, basically continuous Death Ward) armor instead.

Edit: If you're not actually a caster, then it changes.. I don't think you need *continuous*, still, but you very much do need access to the effect. The mentioned vest will probably cover most of your needs, and maybe pick up the Third Eye for when you need to respond to something out of turn.

[eggynack]

Werebear actually. Right now with my build I have reach, increased speed, and short range teleportation. My goal is to be highly mobile melee damage.
What kinda short range teleportation? Is it enough to just get you out of most FoM stuff naturally? It usually would. You should be good at grappling too, given the whole sometimes being a bear thing.

[nedz]

The Ring of FoM also costs 40K, just like the armour it seems. It's actually a bargain; the same item created with the DMG guidelines would cost well over 80K.

The price in the DMG is 40K, same as in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).

[Zancloufer]

The price in the DMG is 40K, same as in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).

No, the custom magic item printed is 40k. Using DMG magic item creation guidelines (which are HORRIBLY OVERPRICED for spell effects compared to magic item lists) would be (iirc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)) 4(Spell level)*7(Minimum caster level to cast FoM)*2000(Base Cost)*4(Spell lasts rounds/CL) which makes it:

224,000GP

So, that MIC/DMG item that's a continuous 4th level spell for 40k? It's freaking Highway robbery. Mind you I wouldn't recommend using that table exactly for the sake of spell effects. Could easily cut the base cost by 1/2 to 1/3rd without making items too cheap.

[Mystral]

FoM is really good, make no mistake, but only when you come into situations which make it neccessary, or you create those yourself. Even then, though, using half your WBL for it is overkill. There are cheaper ways go get it, or similiar effects, which are quite effective at your level (Oil against grapples, universal solvents against sticky stuff, spells for moving under water and so on)

[eggynack]

The price in the DMG is 40K, same as in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).
I believe that he's referring to the fact that the item is underpriced compared to the magic item creation guidelines in the DMG, rather than compared to how the actual item is presented in a different book. His claim is still mistaken, however, because the guidelines put the price of such a ring at 56,000 GP. My guess is that he had put freedom of movement down as a 5th level spell, which would cause the item to cost 90,000 GP, which is accurate to his estimate.

[Firechanter]

The price in the DMG is 40K, same as in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).

Yes, I know. I probably didn't express myself clearly. If you tried to custom-make an Item of FoM, following the DMG/SRD guidelines for magic item creation, you'd end up paying more than twice as much as the ready-made item (ring) that's also in the DMG/SRD.
That's why I call it a bargain. =)

edit: swordsaged.

[Invader]

The Ring of FoM also costs 40K, just like the armour it seems. It's actually a bargain; the same item created with the DMG guidelines would cost well over 80K.

That said, I'd aim to get it at level 14-15, when it actually eats up "only" ~25% of your WBL.

Oh and as for "armour or ring": I'd _definitely_ get the ring. The armour property is a trap; it's a +5 bonus so it costs you 36K _only_ if you never ever put any other property on it. Add just a single other property, for example things like Blurring or Death Ward, and you'll find yourself paying through the nose.

Compare:
+1 Armour with FoM, Blurring, Death Ward; total: +8 = 64K
+1 Armour with Blurring, Death Ward and a Ring of FoM = 49K

Swordsaged:
I didn't realize at first you are a Druid. That being so: forget the item. Items granting the effects of spells are mere crutches for those puny mundanes who are not awesome enough to cast said spells themselves.

But by this logic I could just get any of those other enchants on another item and not incur the extra cost to my armor and the armor with FoM plus the inherent AC bonus is still cheaper than a ring.

[eggynack]

Crap. Forgot the price adjustment on continuous items. That puts the cost at 84,000 GP, which is in line with Firechanter's claim.

[Firechanter]

His claim is still mistaken, however, because the guidelines put the price of such a ring at 56,000 GP.

Let's see. FoM is a 4th level spell, requiring CL7. 4x7 = 28. Continuous item is x20.000, which takes us to the 56.000GP you mention. BUT FoM has 10min/level duration, which requires another x1.5 multiplier for a continuous item. Which is what takes us beyond the 80K. 84K, to be precise.

(and you swordsaged me again.)


But by this logic I could just get any of those other enchants on another item and not incur the extra cost to my armor

Yeah, that's pretty much what you do, if you plan long-term at least.

[Zancloufer]

EDIT: FoM is 10 min/CL? Huh, though it was shorter. Maybe remebering the 2nd Ed verion.

[Story]

You could drop 12K on a Vest of Free Movement (MIC). For a swift activation, get FoM for 3 rounds 3/day. Should be enough to bust you out of most situations until you can afford a more permanent solution.

Couldn't you achieve basically the same thing without taking up a slot by using an Eternal Wand of Heart of Water?

[Invader]

What kinda short range teleportation? Is it enough to just get you out of most FoM stuff naturally? It usually would. You should be good at grappling too, given the whole sometimes being a bear thing.

Boots of big stepping.

I've also picked up Gloves of titans grip for just that reason.

[Squirrel_Dude]

On topic, that's probably too high a percentage of your WPL to spend on any item.


What is your DM like?
Some DM's would respond to that by never throwing another movement-restricting foe at you again, ever. Money wasted as they just go around your shiny new toy.Actually, that makes it more effective. If one person getting a freedom of movement item means that you'll never face them again, it means that you've just bought freedom of movement for your entire party.

[Mnemnosyne]

What makes continuous freedom of movement really awesome, is if you both throw out a lot of movement restricting effects and you get into melee combat a lot. Alternately, if you have an ally that throws out movement restricting effects every battle, you've also got a good reason to get it.

Characters that primarily cast do not need continuous freedom of movement because they tend to stay away from the enemy.

Characters that don't use movement restricting effects or have allies that do, do not need it continuously; a cheaper solution to provide it when the enemy tries to restrict your movement is quite sufficient.

Characters that both melee and throw out a lot of movement restricting effects want continuous freedom of movement because it frees up spell slots and resources that they would otherwise need to use casting it each time they need to use a movement restricting effect, then enter it. If you and all the melee in your group have continuous freedom of movement, you don't need to even think about whether to toss down entangle, web, solid fog, and so forth; the answer is always yes, unless you know it will be ineffective against a particular enemy. At any other time, you have to weigh the benefit of the movement restriction on the enemy with the restriction it places on you, of having to get around your own effect.

Edit: there's also the action cost of casting or activating a freedom of movement effect whenever you want to enter your own battlefield control. If you rely on the spell, you must either anticipate the battle and buff beforehand, or use an action casting the spell. Most items that aren't continuous also require an action of some sort to activate, and many of them have a duration too short to allow you to fight in your own BFC effect.

[Security Bear]

Hmmm...what about Anklets of Translocation? Its technically a 10 foot teleport, activated as a swift action.

My PCs have made my poor pathetic efforts at grappling them into a running joke LOL :smallsmile:

[Invader]

Hmmm...what about Anklets of Translocation? Its technically a 10 foot teleport, activated as a swift action.

My PCs have made my poor pathetic efforts at grappling them into a running joke LOL :smallsmile:

I already have boots of big stepping.

[Shining Wrath]

If your DM never includes foes who use grappling/solid fog/etc. due to you getting an item of Freedom of Movement, has the item not already served its purpose?

Oh, and I remember that there's a decently priced ring of FoM. Might want to check that out.

The DM always wins. If you take away one route of attack, there are so very many others. That's why a character build that is super-optimized for X is likely to fail at Y.

For example, the uber-charger can be crippled by ... furniture. Or in an outdoor setting, bushes and trees. These are hardly unfair things for a DM to include, but they can make getting a straight 10' run at your target a rare event.


On topic, that's probably too high a percentage of your WPL to spend on any item.

Actually, that makes it more effective. If one person getting a freedom of movement item means that you'll never face them again, it means that you've just bought freedom of movement for your entire party.

Again, only if the DM has no other tools to use. Setting aside that CR is imperfect, all you have done is spent $40k to make them choose a different monster of the same CR as the one that grappled or webbed or whatever. And don't get me started on how many different spells a full caster might have besides Web and Solid Fog.

My point is that spending a high percentage of your WBL to take away one tool out of dozens is suboptimal.

[nedz]

Yes, I know. I probably didn't express myself clearly. If you tried to custom-make an Item of FoM, following the DMG/SRD guidelines for magic item creation, you'd end up paying more than twice as much as the ready-made item (ring) that's also in the DMG/SRD.
That's why I call it a bargain. =)

edit: swordsaged.

Ah, probably a crit fail on my reading skill check.

Though we all know that those pricing rules are crazy: Sword of use activated True Strike anyone ? I'll take two.

Lots of White Raven Swordsages around tonight.

[Tvtyrant]

It would be a lot cheaper to get an eternal wand of Heart of Water and just use it on yourself twice a day... You get all of the benefits of freedom of movement when you need it but without the drawback of dropping 40K (I believe the eternal wand is 12k.)

[Invader]

It would be a lot cheaper to get an eternal wand of Hesse of Water and just use it on yourself twice a day... You get all of the benefits of freedom of movement when you need it but without the drawback of dropping 40K (I believe the eternal wand is 12k.)

Except it only works twice a day and I'd have to have one of our casters waste a standard action to use it on me.

[Tvtyrant]

Except it only works twice a day and I'd have to have one of our casters waste a standard action to use it on me.

Heart of Water is an hour per CL, and then rounds per CL as a swift action for rounds/CL. Even at CL 6 that gives you 12 hours of coverage a day between the two uses, which is more than you will likely ever need. You would need to waste a standard action when you woke up, when they are almost endless.

There are very few times heart of water is not equal to or better than Freedom of Movement is, and for items it beats it handily. It lasts longer, it has the same benefit when you need it and lets you breath under water and gives you a swim speed, and it is cheaper.

[Invader]

Heart of Water is an hour per CL, and then rounds per CL as a swift action for rounds/CL. Even at CL 6 that gives you 12 hours of coverage a day between the two uses, which is more than you will likely ever need. You would need to waste a standard action when you woke up, when they are almost endless.

There are very few times heart of water is not equal to or better than Freedom of Movement is, and for items it beats it handily. It lasts longer, it has the same benefit when you need it and lets you breath under water and gives you a swim speed, and it is cheaper.

Ahh I apologize, I had the duration of FoM in my head which is much shorter.

[Lightlawbliss]

heart of water is an incredible spells. arguably the best of a great set of spells.

[Firechanter]

I must say Heart of Water is an excellent suggestion, for anyone who can get it on their spell list. Actually pretty uber, for the reasons Tvtyrant identified.

[Invader]

Just curious and because I'm awful at crafting costs, what would a continuous item of heart of water cost?

[TuggyNE]

Just curious and because I'm awful at crafting costs, what would a continuous item of heart of water cost?

If I remember correctly, you have to discharge it to get the FoM effect, so it's pretty unsuitable for a continuous item.

[Lightlawbliss]

If I remember correctly, you have to discharge it to get the FoM effect, so it's pretty unsuitable for a continuous item.

correct, but you could get an "on command" or (depending on how you set up use) on-use item.

[DR27]

At that level, it's not worth it. Look at the Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for cheaper limited times per day things that give Freedom of Movement. And as somebody else already said, if you can use them, an Eternal Wand of Heart of Water is a really good way to go about it.