Dvati Zen Archer

[TheifofZ]

In the campaign I'm currently playing in, the DM has stated that -everyone- hates arcane magic, and that it's forbidden and yadda yadda yadda. Long and short of it, I decided to play a Dvati and go with Archery to help compensate for the lack of ranged everyone else in the party is bringing.
One of my friends told me to use Zen archer and go Paladin with it. It sounds pretty cool, so I'd like to do it, but I've never really looked into archery before, seriously, at least.

I don't know how I do. Please, oh grand and knowing masters of character builds, show me the way? :smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're going to do a Paladin Zen Archer, then you need 2 important things - Ranged Smite Evil (BoED) and, more importantly, Serenity (DMC).

Serenity is extremely important because it reduces your MAD (uses Wisdom instead of Charisma for your Paladin abilities, such as Divine Grace).

[TheifofZ]

I knew about Ranged Smite after my friend told me, but the Serenity is a big one. That helps so much, thank you.

Any tips on how to do archery good though?

[OldTrees1]

Dvati benefit best from constant abilities rather than limited use abilities.

Rapid Shot gives you an extra attack per full attack and Dvati can make 2 full attacks per round.

I would suggest looking at the Fighter, Ranger and Scout handbooks for their archery sections. You are 2 Archers.

[Person_Man]

If people hate arcane magic, how do they feel about divine magic?

First, understand that archery is mechanically quite weak in 3.5/PF D&D. There are things you can do to make it workable, but it's just not that great of a mechanism for delivering damage, there are very few status effects that it can inflict, and it has no battlefield control options built in. The only advantage is that you can attack at a range without "running out" - but even then, you can accomplish that better with spells or soulmelds or psionics.

If you are going down that path, consider a Cleric Archer instead of Paladin Archer. Cleric just has a much more resources.

If you do go with Paladin, you'll need to read this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), so you can line up all your attributes on Wis or Cha. You'll also want a good special mount, preferably one that can fly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Swordsage/Soulknife into Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), and mix in a few more Swordsage levels later on at the appropriate initiator level to pick up a choice maneuver/stance. The Soulbow's Mind Arrows can be fired with one hand, so you can TWF with them. Swordsage maneuvers readied would be shared by both twins, but they would not have their actions limited when using them like the race's restriction on spellcasting does. Even better, since all of your attacks are from the same character, you can get the feat Woodland Archer (RotW) and each twin will benefit from the other's shots when using that feat. Finally, this build uses Wisdom for AC, damage rolls, and attack rolls as well with Zen Archer. You'll still need a decent Dex for TWF, but between Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) or just Gloves of Dex you should be able to get by with a 15 Dex. The first Mind Arrow Enhancement you get should definitely be Lucky, as each arrow created would get its own 1/day reroll a missed attack roll independent of each other arrow created. It basically gives every shot a second chance to hit if it initially misses.

You'll need to buy two sets of armor but you'll be using light armor thanks to Swordsage, which is cheaper than the heavy armor you would be using with a Zen Archer Paladin or Cleric. Ask your DM about how magic items would work with your character, as there's no definitive answer given in Dragon Compendium. You would obviously need to arm each one with separate weapons, armor, and shields, but for example if you get a pair of gloves or boots, would you be able to put one on each twin so both benefit as they're the same character? A single character only has one of each item space (except for rings), would a Dvati be treated the same and an item in a given spot on either twin affects both, or would you get double the number of item spaces and be able to use double the number of items with special activated abilities? If you would have to buy two of everything (gloves of dex, periapt of wis, ring of protection, cloak of resistance, etc.) then you may consider going with Vow of Poverty (BoED). Its weapon bonuses it provides would apply to all of your Mind Arrows, and both twins would gain all the bonuses it grants.

[TheifofZ]

Sadly, I'm not allowed Tome of Battle (DM outright banned that book, and for good reason).
I don't mind theoretically swapping for soulbow, though, as that could be very good, as it would remove the cost of weapons (Which would be more than enough to pay for light armour on it's own)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sadly, I'm not allowed Tome of Battle (DM outright banned that book, and for good reason).

I wouldn't call any reason for banning that book a good one, it's better balanced than spellcasting, psionic powers, ToM, MoI, and just about every other system that exists in this game. That the classes it contains are so much better than the core Monk, Fighter, etc. doesn't mean ToB is overpowered, it just shows that those core classes are severely underpowered.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wouldn't call any reason for banning that book a good one, it's better balanced than spellcasting, psionic powers, ToM, MoI, and just about every other system that exists in this game. That the classes it contains are so much better than the core Monk, Fighter, etc. doesn't mean ToB is overpowered, it just shows that those core classes are severely underpowered.

The reasons why that book gets banned are many and varied, and not likely to be reversed by appeals to logic or good argumentation. The only cure is experience, in my experience. Once a DM sees the disparity in mid-to-late game play between casters and everyone else, then it generally becomes clear that martial classes need a boost.

Generally.

[Psyren]

First, understand that archery is mechanically quite weak in 3.5/PF D&D.

It's a lot stronger in PF actually, thanks to DR changes, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, and (Imp) Snap Shot for AoOs in close combat.

[TheifofZ]

Sadly enough, I'm aware of the lackluster damage in 3.5 compared to other options. But every so often I have the urge to say screw min-maxing and go for an interesting and outlandish build. Leading to things like the Orc-ish bard, or this.

If my DM would allow PF feats to increase the efficiency of archery, that would be awesome, though.