Lightblade [Paladin ACF, 3.5] (PEACH)

[Beelzebub1111]

I was thinking of making this into a class, but I think it will just work better as an alternate class feature. That just spawned a series of thoughts and how it would work and ballooned into what you see here. Thing's I'm unsure about are in green. Changes are in Blue

Alternate Class Feature
Lightblade
The paladin gains the ability to conjure a sword made forged from the paladin's spirit and devotion to righteousness. The brilliant blades can vary in color from light blue to yellow to white. A reflection of the paladin's fighting spirit.

Level: Paladin 1st

Replaces: Smite Evil and Turn Undead class features

Benefit:At first level The paladin can create a longsword of pure holy energy as a free mental action that can be preformed even when it isn't his turn. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This weapon is treated as a standard longsword, except that it is treated as good aligned and magic. Additionally, as the sword is a manifestation of the paladin's devotion, he adds his charisma bonus to attack and damage rather than his strength. If wielded two handed he adds 1.5x his charisma bonus instead, if wielded as an offhand weapon he adds half his charisma bonus. This is a supernatural ability.

At third level the paladin may use a move action rather than a free action to conjure his blade to create it in the form of any sword-type weapon in which he is proficient. If he has weapon focus with the conjured sword, it may be conjured as a free action as with the standard longsword.

At fourth level the lightblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, it gains another +1 every four levels after that

At fifth level the blade is treated as a cold iron weapon

At tenth level the blade gains the Holy property

At fifteenth level, the blade gains the spell resistance and greater dispel magic abilities of a holy avenger.

At twentieth level, the blade is treated as Epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction

Special: If the paladin falls, he looses this class feature. If an ex-paladin with this class feature becomes a blackguard, he regains this ability at his paladin level. The weapon becomes pitch black and treated as evil aligned, if it had the holy property, it becomes unholy.

Feats
Warrior of Peace [Exalted]
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 3rd

Benefit: As part of conjuring his lightblade, a paladin with this feat may also conjure a shield in the same move action. He must spend at least a move action to create the shield. He may also add the Merciful property to his lightblade.

Weapon of the God's
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 3rd

Benefit: The paladin gains proficiency and weapon focus in his deity's favored weapon. He may shape his Lightblade into the shape of his deity's favored weapon. Ranged weapons produce their own ammunition. In addition, the weapon automatically confirms critical hits against foes opposite his deity's alignment.

Elemental Blade
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 5th

Benefit: When you take this feat choose Flaming, Frost, or Shock. You may add this weapon property to your lightblade when it is conjured.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different property. Only one property may be active at any one time.

Dayblade [Exalted]
The Paladin's lightblade burns with the fires of the sun, its form of the blade seems barely contained as a red, yellow, and orange corona flares around the brilliant white blade
Prereqisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Elemental Blade(flaming), Paladin 10th.

Benefit: When conjured with the flaming property, the paladin's lightblade also gains the Undead Bane property. In addition, the blade gives off light as if it had been targeted by the Daylight spell

Blade of the Northern Sky [Exalted]
The Paladin's lightblade radiates an aura of magnificent colors. The air around him chills, though to the paladin and his allies the cold is bracing and invigorating rather than painful.
Prereqisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Elemental Blade(frost), Paladin 10th.

Benefit: When conjured with the frost property, the paladin and all his allies within 30ft gain cold resistance 10. In addition, all evil creatures within 30ft take 1d6 cold damage per round on the paladin's turn.

Heavenblade [Exalted]
The Paladin's lightblade shimmers with clarity. It seems perfectly constructed from blue-white light, as if forged by the hands of angels.
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 10th

Benefit: The lightblade gains the Evil Outsider Bane property. In addition, it may be treated as silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and regeneration.

Blade of Hellfire [Vile]
The Blackguard's blade becomes a column of red and orange fire, The blade leaves black scorch marks on the blackguard's hand
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Elemental Blade(Flaming), Paladin 10th, Blackguard 1st

Benefit: When Conjured with the Flaming property, the blackguard's lightblade gains deals an additional 1d6 points of fire damage. This extra damage comes directly from an unholy source and is not subject to resistance or immunity

Nightblade [Vile]
The Blackguard's blade is blacker than the dead of night, as if absorbing all surrounding light into the the blade's infinitely deep pitch.
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Elemental Blade(Frost), Paladin 10th, Blackguard 1st

Benefit: When Conjured with the Frost property, the blackguard's lightblade gains the Profane quality (MIC 40), except that it does not harm the wielder. In addition, any living opponent hit by the blade must make will save (DC 10+Blackguard level+Charisma Bonus) or take a -2 morale penalty on Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, and Skill Checks for 1 round.

Hellblade [Vile]
The Blackguard's blade crackles with unholy red lightning. If you listen closely, you can hear the moaning of the souls of the damned coming from within the blade
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 10th, Blackguard 1st

Benefit: The Blackguard's lightblade may be conjured with the Vicious property. Additionally, 3/day when the blackguard successfully confirms a critical hit, he may gain life equal to the damage dealt.


Spells
Righteous Strike
Transmutation [Good]
Level: Pal 1
Components: V, Lightblade
Casting Time: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged

The next time the caster hits an evil opponent with his lightblade, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage per point of charisma bonus the caster possesses.

Sharpened Light
Transmutation
Level: Pal 2, Blackguard 2
Components: V, S, Lightblade
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

The paladin's lightblade condenses into a solid, well defined shape. Your lightblade gains the keen property for the duration of the spell, doubling it's critical threat range

Ethereal Blade
Transmutation
Level: Pal 3
Components: V, S, Lightblade
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

The caster's lightblade is infused with positive energy and partially exists on the ethereal plane. It gains the Ghost Strike ability (MiC p.35) for the duration of the spell, allowing it to hit incorporeal opponents normally and deal critical hit and sneak attack damage to undead.

Light of Order
Transmutation [Lawful]
Level: Pal 3, Blackguard 3
Components: V, S, Lightblade
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

Your lightblade gains the Axiomatic property for the duration of the spell, dealing an extra 2d6 damage against foes of a chaotic alignment.

Transcendent Blade
Transmutation
Level: Pal 4, Blackguard 4
Components: V, S, Lightblade
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level
The Paladin's lightblade becomes insubstantial, passing through armor and shields as if they were nothing. The lightblade gains the Brilliant Energy Property for the duration of the spell. It may still harm undead and deathless opponents.


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I know that it isn't exactly balanced with what you're losing, but my goal was to make it fit better with the paladin, and reduce the paladin's Multiple Ability Distribution problem. Other than that I want to know what you think of it. Any suggestions? Ideas for feats and/or related items? And bottom Line: would you take it?

[Psyborg]

I'd allow the Lance and the favored weapon of the paladin's deity, as well as sword-type weapons. Otherwise, it looks good. Normally I'd be concerned about the Cha to attack and damage on top of an excellent magic weapon for free, but...well...it's a paladin.

Consider allowing it to be traded for any two of Turn Undead, Smite Evil, and Lay On Hands? ...nah, maybe not such a good idea; the Cha-stacking could get a bit stupid with Smite Evil.

Oh, and you should mention what happens to this class feature if the paladin in question becomes a Blackguard.

[Beelzebub1111]

Well, I'm not sure about the lance, but Flavor-wise deity's favored weapon works. I'm just not sure how to word it in there.

I added a bit about the blackguard and removed the exalted descriptor from Elemental Blade, so that he doesn't lose that feat. Speaking of the feats, any thoughts on them?

[Zaydos]

I'd probably allow it just in exchange for Smite Evil. Makes for a better 2 level sorcerer dip, checked how a Holy Avenger works. Pretty powerful little dispel effect, I can see trading Turn Undead for that though the loss hurts (Devotion feats).

I would make it count as Cold Iron and Silver for overcoming DR, paladins fight the devils of law almost as often, if not more often, than the demons of chaos, and say definitely let it overcome Epic DR at 20th. And it needs a scaling enhancement bonus. The lost of magic item properties hurts as is, so the least you could do is give it +1 per 4 class levels; or allow them to get a magical "focus" that provides the weapon they create with the properties of a magical weapon as determined when the focus is created.

I haven't looked over the feats yet. Will do that now.

Looking at the feats you could probably rap them in with the basic ACF or at least 1 instance of each. While properties are good you don't have the feats to spend on them and Elemental Blade's non-stacking clause makes taking it multiple times even worse.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Lance is for charging attacks. Since the Paladin can summon a mount, it's a fairly viable strategy.

As for the wording:

"At first level, the Paladin can create a weapon of pure holy energy as a free action, even when it is not his turn. This weapon takes the form of a Longsword, lance or the deity's favored weapon, chosen by the Paladin when he creates the weapon."

[The Mentalist]

I don't think the feats need to be [Exalted], hamstringing Paladins to UBERGOOD(TM) is not always a good idea, it's just a compounding the horror that is the Paladin's code of conduct. Though I definitely think that there need to be more feats and more options for the weapon choice (I'm seeing a Dwarven Paladin with a hammer, or an Elven with a bow)

Edit: Also seconding what Zaydos said about enchantment bonuses.

[Psyborg]

For racial weapons, I'd make that another feat with three effects:
--May form a Lightblade in the form of any weapon you have a racial proficiency or familiarity with (dwarven waraxe, etc) or that has your race in its name (elven courtblade for elves). You are treated as proficient in that weapon, if you weren't already. (Deity's favored weapon should probably get the proficiency clause too; there's a handful out there with exotic favored weapons.)
--At level (whatever seems balanced), your lightblade gains the Defending and Merciful properties.
--You may multiclass into your racial paragon class (or classes, for half-X races) without forfeiting your ability to advance as a paladin.

Call it Champion of the Meek or something.

Edit: Thirding Zaydos on enhancement bonuses.

Second edit: You could do another feat with Dayblade and Heavenblade prerequisites that upgrades both Bane effects to Fiercebane (MIC; buffed bonuses + glows a la Sting/Orcrist/Glamdring when bane creatures are nearby).

[Beelzebub1111]

Okay, thank you for the advice, I added a clause about the deity's favored weapon in there. I added a feat that lets you get a shield and the merficul property. I put in an item based off of the amulet of mighty fists, though with the prices altered to be more sensible in my opinion.

Obviously no one is going to take the Elemental Blade feat multiple times. It's like weapon focus or Energy Substitution. Sure you CAN take the feat multiple times, but why would you?

The feats are exalted, not so in the "Exalted character sense" but so he looses them if he falls, and wouldn't keep them if he goes blackguard.

[Rhyvurg]

Question, you had the bit about weapon focus in there, but would it be Weapon Focus: Lightblade, or WF: Longsword? Can you apply weapon-specific feats to the lightblade in general? If your deity has a ranged weapon favored, does it make ammo?

[Beelzebub1111]

Question, you had the bit about weapon focus in there, but would it be Weapon Focus: Lightblade, or WF: Longsword? Can you apply weapon-specific feats to the lightblade in general? If your deity has a ranged weapon favored, does it make ammo?
1: It's weapon focus in the shape that the weapon takes. If you take Weapon Focus(Greatsword) You'd be able to make a greatsword as a free action that doesn't need to be on your turn instead of a move action.

2: No, but if you took a feat in the form that the lightblade takes, they would apply

3: It was intended as a melee weapon, so the thought hadn't occurred to me.

EDIT: Changed the deity's weapon to a feat. in order to preserve the original and give an extra bonus to make up for taking the feat.

[Amnoriath]

I was thinking of making this into a class, but I think it will just work better as an alternate class feature. That just spawned a series of thoughts and how it would work and ballooned into what you see here. Thing's I'm unsure about are in green. Changes are in Blue

Alternate Class Feature
Lightblade
The paladin gains the ability to conjure a sword made forged from the paladin's spirit and devotion to righteousness. The brilliant blades can vary in color from light blue to yellow to white. A reflection of the paladin's fighting spirit.

Level: Paladin 1st

Replaces: Smite Evil and Turn Undead class features

Benefit:At first level The paladin can create a longsword of pure holy energy as a free mental action that can be preformed even when it isn't his turn. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This weapon is treated as a standard longsword, except that it is treated as good aligned and magic. Additionally, as the sword is a manifestation of the paladin's devotion, he adds his charisma bonus to attack and damage rather than his strength. If wielded two handed he adds 1.5x his charisma bonus instead, if wielded as an offhand weapon he adds half his charisma bonus. The blade may not be targeted by a magic weapon or greater magic weapon spells, as it is not a physical weapon. This is a supernatural ability.

At third level the paladin may use a move action rather than a free action to conjure his blade to create it in the form of any sword-type weapon in which he is proficient. If he has weapon focus with the conjured sword, it may be conjured as a free action as with the standard longsword.

At fifth level the blade is treated as a cold iron weapon

At tenth level the blade gains the Holy property

At fifteenth level, the blade gains the spell resistance and greater dispel magic abilities of a holy avenger.

At twentieth level, the blade is treated as Epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction

Special: If the paladin falls, he looses this class feature. If an ex-paladin with this class feature becomes a blackguard, he regains this ability at his paladin level. The weapon becomes pitch black and treated as evil aligned, if it had the holy property, it becomes unholy.

Feats
Warrior of Peace [Exalted]
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 3rd

Benefit: As part of conjuring his lightblade, a paladin with this feat may also conjure a shield in the same move action. He must spend at least a move action to create the shield. He may also add the Merciful property to his lightblade.

Weapon of the God's
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 3rd

Benefit: The paladin gains proficiency and weapon focus in his deity's favored weapon. He may shape his Lightblade into the shape of his deity's favored weapon. Ranged weapons produce their own ammunition. In addition, the weapon automatically confirms critical hits against foes opposite his deity's alignment.

Elemental Blade
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 5th

Benefit: When you take this feat choose Flaming, Frost, or Shock. You may add this weapon property to your lightblade when it is conjured.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different property. Only one property may be active at any one time.

Dayblade [Exalted]
The Paladin's lightblade burns with the fires of the sun, its form of the blade seems barely contained as a red, yellow, and orange corona flares around the brilliant white blade
Prereqisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Elemental Blade(flaming), Paladin 10th.

Benefit: When conjured with the flaming property, the paladin's lightblade also gains the Undead Bane property. In addition, the blade gives off light as if it had been targeted by the Daylight spell

Heavenblade [Exalted]
The Paladin's lightblade shimmers with clarity. It seems perfectly constructed, as if forged by the hands of angels.
Prerequisite: Lightblade Alternate Class Feature, Paladin 10th

Benefit: The lightblade gains the Evil Outsider Bane property. In addition, it may be treated as silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and regeneration.


Items
Armbands of Divine Light
These mithril bracers are intricately etched with symbols of the heavens and the patterns glow softly in the dark.
These bracers grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with a lightblade.

CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the bracers’ bonus; Price 4,000 gp (+1), 16,000 gp (+2), 32,000 gp (+3), 64,000 gp (+4), 100,000 gp (+5).
************
I know that it isn't exactly balanced with what you're losing, but my goal was to make it fit better with the paladin, and reduce the paladin's Multiple Ability Distribution problem. Other than that I want to know what you think of it. Any suggestions? Ideas for feats and/or related items? And bottom Line: would you take it?

Quite a flavorful ACF, but why would anyone forsake Turn Undead and Smite Evil for this? It is strictly worse than a weapon and even a 3.5 Mind Blade(You didn't have to blow feats to add enchantments nor did you pay double cost to get a +5 weapon). The spell resistance actually hurts you more because of half-caster level and the Magic Item Compendium gives a swift action greater dispel with two +1 properties.
Sure it reduces MAD and not being material makes it immune to certain spells and damage, but there are a couple of items that add charisma to attack and a divine feat that adds charisma to attack plus damage. Also the DM has to be a real jerk if you are worrying about your big magic weapon being destroyed. The only thing that maybe worth it is auto-confirm criticals feat but at most that may only come into affect 5-10 percent of the time(17-20(improved critical feat), many immune, and about 50% of all enemy alignments).

[Beelzebub1111]

Quite a flavorful ACF, but why would anyone forsake Turn Undead and Smite Evil for this? It is strictly worse than a weapon and even a 3.5 Mind Blade(You didn't have to blow feats to add enchantments nor did you pay double cost to get a +5 weapon). The spell resistance actually hurts you more because of half-caster level and the Magic Item Compendium gives a swift action greater dispel with two +1 properties.
Sure it reduces MAD and not being material makes it immune to certain spells and damage, but there are a couple of items that add charisma to attack and a divine feat that adds charisma to attack plus damage. Also the DM has to be a real jerk if you are worrying about your big magic weapon being destroyed. The only thing that maybe worth it is auto-confirm criticals feat but at most that may only come into affect 5-10 percent of the time(17-20(improved critical feat), many immune, and about 50% of all enemy alignments).

I admit that it's not perfect, but neither is the paladin. Though I'm not sure how a paladin's holy avenger hurts him. It can be lowered to recieve buffs and healing or he can drop the sword as a free action then "grab" it again as another free action, assuming its his longsword or a weapon he has focus in. and to quote the SRD "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities". The Holy Avenger is an iconic paladin weapon that seamed appropriate.

Beside that, this isn't a class, he still gets every other paladin ability. Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, His Mount, Remove disease. Plus it give something to look forward to past level 6.

The BEST case scenario for crit range would be 15-20 range if he makes a scimitar or falchion and takes the improved critical feat.

And what's not cool about a paladin being able to make a fist and conjure up a glowing blade of divine energy?

[Amnoriath]

I admit that it's not perfect, but neither is the paladin. Though I'm not sure how a paladin's holy avenger hurts him. It can be lowered to recieve buffs and healing or he can drop the sword as a free action then "grab" it again as another free action, assuming its his longsword or a weapon he has focus in. and to quote the SRD "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities". The Holy Avenger is an iconic paladin weapon that seamed appropriate.

Beside that, this isn't a class, he still gets every other paladin ability. Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, His Mount, Remove disease. Plus it give something to look forward to past level 6.

The BEST case scenario for crit range would be 15-20 range if he makes a scimitar or falchion and takes the improved critical feat.

And what's not cool about a paladin being able to make a fist and conjure up a glowing blade of divine energy?

Okay I didn't look at everything but the problem is your best option is in 2 feats and can be easily ignored. How easy is it to pick up some fortification or like ability? In addition a Paladin can already do this from Bless Weapon. Also charisma is actually an easy stat to get into other things. So, the only real advantage is you can fully dump strength with no penalty to attack, assuming you don't want hefty armor or Power Attack.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732
Its cool, but like a 3.5 SoulKnife, except you have to blow feats and 2xgold to get enhancements. The whole reason why the Soulknife doesn't work is because a base weapon is better. Yes, it had a few other down falls but this has the same problem except worse. Those other features will not redeem that loss. As of now I can have a strictly better weapon, smite, and turn undead for divine/devotion feats plus more gold.

[Der_DWSage]

Honestly, my biggest concern here is that this class is actually more tempting for Sorcerers than for actual Paladins. Being able to substitute Charisma for hit and damage? Go one more level to add Charisma to saves? Sign me up. Who cares that it's technically not magic? When you start getting things with DR that can't be overcome with a regular weapon like that, you have enough magic to simply not care.

So, perhaps throw a limitation in there. Something along the lines of 'may add up to two points of Charisma to hit and damage per Paladin level' or summat.

I'd also add a few low-level homebrew spells for Paladins to use with these lightblades. Swift action type ones that can be used while in melee. Pathfinder did so with great success. (Probably the best thing they did in the system-give melee/magic mixes loads of swift action spells to make use of!)

[Beelzebub1111]

The reason I doubled the cost, is that I wanted to have it be slightly less than the cost of the weapon at the respective levels. A +3 Cold Iron Holy Weapon costs 52,000 plus double the masterwork cost of the weapon. So 32,000 for the same effect seemed reasonable. The Holy Avenger itself costs 120,630 so 100,000 to get the same +5 also seemed like a fair deal.

On another note, I added Blackguard feats. I do think I need some ideas for Paladin feats for the other elements so that anyone who takes Elemental Blade (Frost) isn't immediately assumed to be planning on falling.

I'm not sure what to say about sorcerers dipping into the class. Limiting the bonus to paladin level really nerfs the class feature at low levels. I'd think of something, but I'm not sure if I actually need to. But your spell idea intrigues me. I'll come up with something.

[Zaydos]

The reason I doubled the cost, is that I wanted to have it be slightly less than the cost of the weapon at the respective levels. A +3 Cold Iron Holy Weapon costs 52,000 plus double the masterwork cost of the weapon. So 32,000 for the same effect seemed reasonable. The Holy Avenger itself costs 120,630 so 100,000 to get the same +5 also seemed like a fair deal.

On another note, I added Blackguard feats. I do think I need some ideas for Paladin feats for the other elements so that anyone who takes Elemental Blade (Frost) isn't immediately assumed to be planning on falling.

I'm not sure what to say about sorcerers dipping into the class. Limiting the bonus to paladin level really nerfs the class feature at low levels. I'd think of something, but I'm not sure if I actually need to. But your spell idea intrigues me. I'll come up with something.

It's a class feature, you shouldn't be paying an equivalent amount of gold to make it workable. Also the raw enhancement bonus is obtainable with a mage ally for 9000 GP (Greater Magic Weapon spell) and by high levels isn't worth the cost if you don't circumvent it even in what is for these boards really low optimization (as in even my RL players have figured this out and they don't optimize), it's other qualities (Collision, Dispelling, Ghost Touch, Dragon Bane, etc) that you should be paying for.

[Der_DWSage]

I'm not sure what to say about sorcerers dipping into the class. Limiting the bonus to paladin level really nerfs the class feature at low levels. I'd think of something, but I'm not sure if I actually need to. But your spell idea intrigues me. I'll come up with something.

Hence why I said do it at a scale of 2:1. More than a Sorcerer Dip would deal with for an ultimately forgettable class feature, but far more than a 3rd level character would need.

And to take another leaf from Pathfinder's book:Instead of the flat 'Holy' property at level 10, perhaps you should take a look at their Divine Bond features? They scale rather well, and give you a variety of choices.

[Amnoriath]

The reason I doubled the cost, is that I wanted to have it be slightly less than the cost of the weapon at the respective levels. A +3 Cold Iron Holy Weapon costs 52,000 plus double the masterwork cost of the weapon. So 32,000 for the same effect seemed reasonable. The Holy Avenger itself costs 120,630 so 100,000 to get the same +5 also seemed like a fair deal.


Your item cost 100,000 for a +5 enhancement bonus. You just described a +5 weapon, you lost a little under 46,000 gold(2000+3 levels and 2000+Holy). The holy avenger actually has a bit of a loophole. It is only a +7 total weapon in the hands of a Paladin but is only a +2 weapon in anyone else. Give this baby to a good crafter and it can be buffed quite easily. Also you shouldn't be completely replicating a single item for an entire class feature set. Especially when have to buy a worn item that costs about double that of an equivalent enchantment.

[Amnoriath]

I'm not sure what to say about sorcerers dipping into the class. Limiting the bonus to paladin level really nerfs the class feature at low levels. I'd think of something, but I'm not sure if I actually need to. But your spell idea intrigues me. I'll come up with something.

If the Sorcerer wants to lose a caster so he can get a weapon he actually can't buff with spells or normal enchantments, let him. It is his trap, but one that won't that screw him up.
The fact is you shouldn't be giving up 2 features iconic features for this. Instead, just take away smite and give options based upon spending turn undead attempts. Smite, despite its limited use at base and specific targets can deal a lot of damage with the right features and feats(a couple actually can give you close to on tap smite attempts). Through use of the Charging Smite ACF it triples smite damage on a charge trading a mount but that can be easily replaced with the better Wild Cohort feat. Then the Gray Guard all but removes the restrictions. As such increased versatility should be your angle so that it could either act as a decent back up strategy if pure damage can't be used yet. Therefore keeping Turn Undead should be a high-priority.

[Beelzebub1111]

Alright, Zaydos, you make a good point. Now I can't quite decide if the bonus should start at second or fourth. I'm not asking what's better. Obviously second would be better. I'm asking what would be appropriate.

[Zaydos]

Alright, Zaydos, you make a good point. Now I can't quite decide if the bonus should start at second or fourth. I'm not asking what's better. Obviously second would be better. I'm asking what would be appropriate.

I'd say 4th (or 3rd) because the ability to focus on Charisma is more than worth not being able to get a Mw weapon and you're unlikely to get a magical weapon before 3rd or 4th weapon and have little need for one.

[Xerlith]

It's a great ACF and I absolutely love it. The part I'm concerned about is the fact you trade off your Turn Undead as well. I'd rather see some of the Lightblade's abilities powered by it. Say, beginning at 12th Paladin level you can sacrifice one of your Turn Undead attempts to make the Lightblade a Brilliant Energy weapon until the beginning of your next turn?

[Beelzebub1111]

Well, I added two new feats and updated the rate of enhancement bonus gain. I'll be adding spells soon.

[Melayl]

It's a great ACF and I absolutely love it. The part I'm concerned about is the fact you trade off your Turn Undead as well. I'd rather see some of the Lightblade's abilities powered by it. Say, beginning at 12th Paladin level you can sacrifice one of your Turn Undead attempts to make the Lightblade a Brilliant Energy weapon until the beginning of your next turn?

I like this idea as well. I'd maybe just make them sacrifice Smite only?

[Angelalex242]

Paladins are feat starved. I'd say give him all those 'feats' free as part of the lightblade concept.

You also don't have an 'improved shockblade' yet, like you have improved fire and improved frost.

In addition, the fire/frost/shock property should become bursts at some point during levelup.

It may also be nice if he eventually gets to use two, and eventually even all 3 of those simultaneously. It'd pack a whallop then, which might tone down some criticism of it.

[Beelzebub1111]

I added a spells and fixed the description text for Blade of Hellfire. Also removed the stipulation about it not being a physical weapon. Spells that target weapons can now target the lightblade


You also don't have an 'improved shockblade' yet, like you have improved fire and improved frost.
Working on it.

[~Corvus~]

Other people have talked about this, but the loss of Turn Undead seems rather substantial. That said, a single level of Cleric / CC can pick it back up.

I like the idea that this empowers Halflings or Gnomes to be as effective as other larger races with the Cha replacement. Are you still giving the hand-and-a-half bonuses for 2-handing a Medium longsword for those small races that trade in their Str for Cha?

[Beelzebub1111]

Are you still giving the hand-and-a-half bonuses for 2-handing a Medium longsword for those small races that trade in their Str for Cha?
A small greatsword would do the same thing. and it's "Held with two hands" not "a two handed weapon" so a medium character could hold the standard lightblade longsword with two hands.

[~Corvus~]

A small greatsword would do the same thing. and it's "Held with two hands" not "a two handed weapon" so a medium character could hold the standard lightblade longsword with two hands.

My question is more about the Strength Bonus to damage. Would the Charisma replacement also give the standard 1.5 bonus to damage for a 2-hander?

[Hippie_Viking]

Well I just wanted to say that this is a really cool acf, I like it:smallbiggrin:

One question tho, would charisma also apply to hit or if not wouldn't you need strength anyway?

[~Corvus~]

Well I just wanted to say that this is a really cool acf, I like it:smallbiggrin:

One question tho, would charisma also apply to hit or if not wouldn't you need strength anyway?

Usually, these replacements are optional =3 Just like Weapon Finesse, right?

[Brickroad]

Fantastic ACF idea, but it hits on a major problem I have with balancing.

First, a soapbox moment: Item customizing features inevitably either subvert the campaign's item economy or are outclassed by it. The price in feats and features is exorbitant when considering what little impact a glowing +5 holy sword makes in a world of +5 holy swords. But to address the lightblade itself, lets just sweep this under the rug.

As far as paladin features go, the spell casting strikes me as the one to toss in favor of a lightsaberblade. Smite Evil is iconic; without that you're a paltry Cleric with better saves. Turn Undead is a major prerequisite for a whole slew of content, to the point it isn't worth balancing (and as someone mentioned, a loss easily subverted with 1 level of cleric).

On the other hand most of the Paladin core spells are weapon-modifying ones, which would either go largely unused (forbidden for balance's sake) or end up becoming features of the lightblade (to preserve balance). Most of the other spells have to do with combat buffing or warding off Imminent Death Syndrome.

So I have a suggestion: Incorporate some of the must-have spells into sword-related religious mechanics. The sword becomes the Wisdom based aspect of a more sword-happy Paladin who pays for it by having a restricted spell selection. A major feature (besides the scaling item value) would include battle rituals, or sacrifices, or offerings, or whatever, that grant the Paladin the more essential spell buffs that would be a handicap not to have like bless weapon, divine favor, death ward, etc.

It works into role playing nicely if you follow [insert-warrior-god-here] and allows for more creativity than trying to balance the item economy.

Then again, I am biased in favor of swords and against spell books, so my opinion is best taken with copious MSG.

[Hippie_Viking]

Usually, these replacements are optional =3 Just like Weapon Finesse, right?

True I guess, but one notable difference is that weapon finesse changes your attack rolls so if you have bonus damage from another source, like sneak attack you don't really care about the base damage:) I am sure you can work around it somehow, but I just thought I should bring it up:p


Edit
Hmm I just added a avatar strange that it doesn't show...

[~Corvus~]

True I guess, but one notable difference is that weapon finesse changes your attack rolls so if you have bonus damage from another source, like sneak attack you don't really care about the base damage:) I am sure you can work around it somehow, but I just thought I should bring it up:p


Weapon Finesse is awesome when X classes 4, Swordsage 2, pick up the Shadow Blade feat and Assassin's Stance. Extra 2d6 sneak attack and potentially Dex to damage as well. Booya. Still, your point is good.Cha as a total replacement option for Str, but not mandatory, is cool. On the other hand, Lesser Aasimar is lookin' pretty dang good right now.

BTW, Brickroad's suggestions are pretty amazing.

[Beelzebub1111]

@Brickroad: The Smite Evil aspect of the paladin isn't iconic. Couldn't do that in earlier editions. And I'd say it is more like a Divine Rifts Cyber-Knight rather than a Jedi. Also, most paladin spells are defensive buffs, only four in core modify his weapon.

@~Corvus~ and Hippie Viking: In the first part of the class feature I wrote:

he adds his charisma bonus to attack and damage rather than his strength. If wielded two handed he adds 1.5x his charisma bonus instead, if wielded as an offhand weapon he adds half his charisma bonus.
I don't know how to be less ambiguous than that.

[Carl]

@Brickroad: The Smite Evil aspect of the paladin isn't iconic. Couldn't do that in earlier editions. And I'd say it is more like a Divine Rifts Cyber-Knight rather than a Jedi.

Random point, although i'm not familiar with divine rifts i'd say based on the name that neither it nor Jedi really have anything major to do with the paladin concept. I can certainly see elements, but they're distant cousins at best.

Probably the best example of a truly powerful Paladin i've encountered recently would be Dresden Files's Knights of the Cross. Whilst they're a bit more based around their weapon than is usual they're still potent without it and "smite evil" is a pretty iconic part of what makes them so nasty. Weather they're using their swords or not their faith is always very clearly empowering them and the damage they deal out. he swords are just really good at focusing this and stupidly powerful to start with.

[~Corvus~]

I don't know how to be less ambiguous than that.

Yep yep, totally not ambiguous.

[~Corvus~]

@Brickroad: The Smite Evil aspect of the paladin isn't iconic. Couldn't do that in earlier editions. And I'd say it is more like a Divine Rifts Cyber-Knight rather than a Jedi. Also, most paladin spells are defensive buffs, only four in core modify his weapon.

What I think Brick is trying to get at here, and in his longer post, is that the Smite Evil class feature has become a powerful--and potent--feature of the Paladin in 3.0 and 3.5. There is also the other point he brings up, which is that many of the Paladin's spells serve to augment his Offensive Capability.

As to the idea of the Paladin's Turning becoming iconic, there are a number of prestige classes (Shadowbane Inquisitor, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Sacred Exorcist to name a few) that make incredible use of Turn Undead; The ability is used in Divine Metamagic as a means of making use of Turning attempts as a means of Quickening or Maximizing, or even Persisting spells without heightening their level. Combined with items such as Nightsticks, the Paladin becomes a fascinating warrior even with such paltry casting. In this way it has become an iconic resource of the 3.5 paladin. The spells, interestingly enough, are somewhat related.

Paladin spells cannot heal well--they are meant to remove conditions and provide (mostly) minor combat buffs. Your ACF is specifically and offensive increase, and an interesting one at that. I agree with Brick here: Replacing spells with this seems like a worthy sacrifice.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the biggest spells they have that augment offensive capability are:

Bless Weapon:(Which is TERRIBLE as an enchantment unless it's constant (as in book of exalted deeds) instead of activated x times per day (as in MIC). Mostly notable for the famous improve crit feat+Bless Weapon trick, since Bless Weapon does not stack with ENCHANTMENTS related to critical hits, but doesn't say a thing about feats. Why yes, 15-20 auto crit vs. evil with a Falchion, I'm looking at you.
Divine Sacrifice:10 HP for +5d6 damage. One of my favorite Paladin DPS spells. I abuse this.
Holy Sword:The cream of the crop. Make your temporary Holy Avenger, more or less.

All 3 of those should be features of the Lightblade. Autocrit vs. evil, sac hp for damage, and Holy Sword at higher levels.

[Waddacku]

Maybe hand out a few bonus feats (three or so) over the levels to be spent on the lightblade improving ones. As it stands, investing in them will eat up all your feats, but I don't think you should give it all out for free either. Better to give a bit of free customization and then also the ability to invest more for those who want to.

I'm not sure where I stand on the spells aspect, but it's interesting to note that trading out spells for the lightblade would leave you completely SAD, standard Con/Dex investments aside. No Str, no Wis required.

[Hippie_Viking]

@Brickroad: The Smite Evil aspect of the paladin isn't iconic. Couldn't do that in earlier editions. And I'd say it is more like a Divine Rifts Cyber-Knight rather than a Jedi. Also, most paladin spells are defensive buffs, only four in core modify his weapon.

@~Corvus~ and Hippie Viking: In the first part of the class feature I wrote:

I don't know how to be less ambiguous than that.

You can't really, it is me who shouldn't be writting posts that late...

or maybe I am stupid now and you changed it after that, anyway I like it.:smalltongue:

[~Corvus~]

Well, the biggest spells they have that augment offensive capability are:

Bless Weapon:(Which is TERRIBLE as an enchantment unless it's constant (as in book of exalted deeds) instead of activated x times per day (as in MIC). Mostly notable for the famous improve crit feat+Bless Weapon trick, since Bless Weapon does not stack with ENCHANTMENTS related to critical hits, but doesn't say a thing about feats. Why yes, 15-20 auto crit vs. evil with a Falchion, I'm looking at you.
Divine Sacrifice:10 HP for +5d6 damage. One of my favorite Paladin DPS spells. I abuse this.
Holy Sword:The cream of the crop. Make your temporary Holy Avenger, more or less.

All 3 of those should be features of the Lightblade. Autocrit vs. evil, sac hp for damage, and Holy Sword at higher levels.

Well....There's also Grave Strike, a Swift Action spell permitting Crits and Sneak attack vs. Undead. There's DIVINE SACRIFICE, letting you shunt HP into damage: up to 10 HP for +5d6 damage. There's Deafening Clang, letting you make your weapon into a Sonic one. There's even Silvered weapon!

...and that's just other first-level spells.

2nd-level: We have Zeal, There's Bladebane, making your weapon a Bane weapon vs. a type of enemy (extra 2d6 damage), we have Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, then, freaking A, Righteous Fury, granting 1d4 temp HP per caster level, +2 Dex and Str, +2 Nat AC, +2 Sacred to Fort, and it damaged undead who touch the caster. Then Freakin' Strength of stone, granting 1d4 Str +1 as long as you don't "leave the ground"

3rd level: Earth Hammer, a Swift Action nonetheless, makes the weapon grow one size cat. larger, does bludgeoning, and is treated as Adamantine. 1round/level, swift action?!? YEAH BABY. See also Undead Bane weapon, which can stack with the Bladebane spell (hehe).

4th level: Hand of Torm-1 HOUR/level spell that stuns anyone (fort negates) EVERY ROUND they enter or stay in the 10-foot radius. Don't worship Torm? Save or suck! Pretty damn cool.
- Weapon of the Deity, making the favored weapon of the deity into proficient, giving it Enhancement bonuses, and even weapon enchants based on teh deity's favored enchants.
There's also Mark of Justice, bestowing a -6 to an ability, and then either -4 attack, damage, saves, and skill checks or 50% of losing every action. AND this spell resists Remove Curse requiring the remover to be at elast as high level as the pally.

ONLY three spells? Pshaw.