Nale was right

[Ramien]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does. He got beat once - hard - and lost his drive to push for anything less than a certain thing. He's taken the easy, safe path to moderate power rather than risk anything to try and be the best/worst among his field. Look at Xykon and Redcloak - they're both wanting something that will literally change the world around them in one way or another. Tarquin has been content to work behind the scenes, slowly expanding his empire across part of the Western Continent - and nothing has really changed. Anyone outside of his direct rule just see his nations as just another handful among the map of ever-shifting nations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), and there's still a lot of scattered nations they haven't clamed yet. And even if he somehow manages to conquer all the smaller desert nations, the southern and eastern lands won't be affected one whit.

To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

This is not to say he's been ineffective - just that he doesn't have The Wrong Stuff.

[sims796]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does. He got beat once - hard - and lost his drive to push for anything less than a certain thing. He's taken the easy, safe path to moderate power rather than risk anything to try and be the best/worst among his field. Look at Xykon and Redcloak - they're both wanting something that will literally change the world around them in one way or another. Tarquin has been content to work behind the scenes, slowly expanding his empire across part of the Western Continent - and nothing has really changed. Anyone outside of his direct rule just see his nations as just another handful among the map of ever-shifting nations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), and there's still a lot of scattered nations they haven't clamed yet. And even if he somehow manages to conquer all the smaller desert nations, the southern and eastern lands won't be affected one whit.

To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

This is not to say he's been ineffective - just that he doesn't have The Wrong Stuff.

For clarity's sake, when was his first major loss?

[Ramien]

For clarity's sake, when was his first major loss?

Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), and he's been playing it safe ever since.

[Kornaki]

For clarity's sake, when was his first major loss?

When he forged his first empire and was driven out by an alliance of enemy nations a year or so later

[Mordar]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does.

If you amend this to say "...main villain in a melodrama like OotS..." I'd agree.

He is much more (for lack of a better immediate comparison) a great Clancy villain. Power makes serfs dance. True power makes monarchs dance. To him, the world/continent/kingdom doesn't need changing...just his place in (or more appropriately, atop) it.


To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

Lots of alpha villains have soft spots for their families. See a litany of mob movies, for instance. He has no issues sacrificing hundreds of soldiers/criminals/passersby in "his" kingdom...he just won't sacrifice those that are really important unless he absolutely has to, and that's not bad villainy, that's pragmatic villainy.

Now, I'm not a huge Tarquin fan...just view him as a much more frightening villain to consider than the cartoon that is Xyklon. T and Redcloak have a lot in common in that regard, now that I think about it...

- M

[Ramien]

If you amend this to say "...main villain in a melodrama like OotS..." I'd agree.

He is much more (for lack of a better immediate comparison) a great Clancy villain. Power makes serfs dance. True power makes monarchs dance. To him, the world/continent/kingdom doesn't need changing...just his place in (or more appropriately, atop) it.

We're not reading a webcomic by Tom Clancy, are we? That type of villain is great in the right setting and with the right protagonist. He'd be a great Bond villain too, but that's also a different type of story.


Lots of alpha villains have soft spots for their families. See a litany of mob movies, for instance. He has no issues sacrificing hundreds of soldiers/criminals/passersby in "his" kingdom...he just won't sacrifice those that are really important unless he absolutely has to, and that's not bad villainy, that's pragmatic villainy.

Now, I'm not a huge Tarquin fan...just view him as a much more frightening villain to consider than the cartoon that is Xyklon. T and Redcloak have a lot in common in that regard, now that I think about it...

- M
Pragmatic villainy is all well and good, but what was being done with Nale was beyond pragmatism or even a soft spot - Nale had made it obvious very long ago he wasn't going to play along with T's plans, but Tarquin kept trying to force the issue. He wasn't just happy keeping Nale alive, his control issues wanted Nale working for him still.

Xykon and Redcloak both scare me a lot more that Tarquin does - Tarquin looks a lot scarier at the moment, but that's because he's already at the top of his little world. He's got control, so we know what he's like as a tyrannical dictator of his kingdom. I also think that's part of the problem. He set his sights low, succeeded, and now he's just trying to maintain until he gets his grand sendoff, instead of setting his sights higher.

Xykon and Redcloak, if they succeed, will cause a lot more damage and a lot more suffering if they win. I guess I just like a bit more ambition in my villains, and that's what Tarquin's sorely lacking.

[EmperorSarda]

Tarquin is not the main villain because Elan isn't the main protagonist, Roy is.
Tarquin is also not the main villain because he's a side quest, because the story didn't start on the Western Continent.

It has nothing to do with ability, he's on the path to conquering a whole continent with no one really noticing or doing anything about it.

He's plenty capable of being a villain and pulling off his plan, but he's just not the main villain.

[Amphiox]

Actually, I would say Tarquin's first major loss (that we know about) is losing custody of Elan to his first wife.

[Amphiox]

A "main" villain doesn't have to be trying to achieve something world shaking.

It depends on what kind of narrative it is.

[Theodoriph]

Actually, I would say Tarquin's first major loss (that we know about) is losing custody of Elan to his first wife.

They got split custody (e.g. one child each). How is that a loss? It seems like an equitable division of family assets. And in fact, from comic #50, it appears Tarquin didn't want Elan.

[EmperorSarda]

Actually, I would say Tarquin's first major loss (that we know about) is losing custody of Elan to his first wife.

We only know his side, we don't know if what he is saying is accurate or just a lie being fed to Elan.

[Ramien]

Actually, I would say Tarquin's first major loss (that we know about) is losing custody of Elan to his first wife.

That was also a personal loss, rather than a 'business' loss...

And even then, notice how he made sure not to have another child with any of his wives after Elan's (and Nale's) mom?


Tarquin is not the main villain because Elan isn't the main protagonist, Roy is.
Tarquin is also not the main villain because he's a side quest, because the story didn't start on the Western Continent.

It has nothing to do with ability, he's on the path to conquering a whole continent with no one really noticing or doing anything about it.

He's plenty capable of being a villain and pulling off his plan, but he's just not the main villain.
His being capable is my point. He's sitting very comfortably in the spot that his capabilities are suited for - not daring to strive any higher than he can grasp with moderately-outstretched arm. Without interference, he will be able to take over most of the Western Continent (the Elven Lands and the new Azure City conclave might be problematic). And absent Xykon, Redcloak, and the IFCC, he might have made a capable main villain for a shorter, different, campaign. But there are bigger villains out there, and they're still not inspiring him to step up his game. He's looking for the endgame already - just look at his relations with Elan. He's setting up Elan to beat him, not trying to hold onto his power for as long as possible. To steal a concept (but not the exact wording) from the noted philosopher:

:xykon: He's a chump who doesn't have what it takes to stay in the game.

[Joe the Rat]

They got split custody (e.g. one child each). How is that a loss? It seems like an equitable division of family assets. And in fact, from comic #50, it appears Tarquin didn't want Elan.

Yeah, given his power grab out West, I'd say "equitable division of assets" translates for him into "Half of it is not under my control." Given the "mine, or no one's" aspect that has come to the surface, I'm wondering if his early family breakup might have driven more of his need to be in control.

At least he got a good dramatic reveal out of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html).

[BlackDragonKing]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does. He got beat once - hard - and lost his drive to push for anything less than a certain thing. He's taken the easy, safe path to moderate power rather than risk anything to try and be the best/worst among his field. Look at Xykon and Redcloak - they're both wanting something that will literally change the world around them in one way or another. Tarquin has been content to work behind the scenes, slowly expanding his empire across part of the Western Continent - and nothing has really changed. Anyone outside of his direct rule just see his nations as just another handful among the map of ever-shifting nations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), and there's still a lot of scattered nations they haven't clamed yet. And even if he somehow manages to conquer all the smaller desert nations, the southern and eastern lands won't be affected one whit.

To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

This is not to say he's been ineffective - just that he doesn't have The Wrong Stuff.

Certainly not the villain in a "save the world" perspective, but then that is the difference between Nale and Tarquin, isn't it? Perspective.

Tarquin sees limits on his power, and rather than deny them, rage at them, turn to any means he can to remove them, he's worked within them to create a system that makes it fiendishly difficult for anyone to prevent him from living the rest of his life with absolute power over a gigantic chunk of the map without even needing to fight that hard for it, and his power will only grow the longer the system remains in place. It's not the world, but when you think about it, why would you want to run the world? Being strong enough to do it means jack squat if you aren't also the single most powerful socioeconomic genius ever sired that can somehow manage an empire easily beyond ten times the size of the most massive accomplishments of the most ambitious conquerors before you. Nobody can really manage that much landmass.

Nale was a dreamer who wanted to be at the top but seems to have no idea how in the hell he'd get there or what he'd do once he did it. Tarquin is a realist who has figured out that the only real power in life is power you are in absolute control of, and power that can't just be taken away from you by a single unfortunate turn of events.

In some ways, this is another parallel between Tarquin and Roy; both of them will generally take a boring but practical approach to assuring success rather than gamble enormous failure on something more glamorous with absolutely nothing backing it up.

[Ramien]

Certainly not the villain in a "save the world" perspective, but then that is the difference between Nale and Tarquin, isn't it? Perspective.

Tarquin sees limits on his power, and rather than deny them, rage at them, turn to any means he can to remove them, he's worked within them to create a system that makes it fiendishly difficult for anyone to prevent him from living the rest of his life with absolute power over a gigantic chunk of the map without even needing to fight that hard for it, and his power will only grow the longer the system remains in place. It's not the world, but when you think about it, why would you want to run the world? Being strong enough to do it means jack squat if you aren't also the single most powerful socioeconomic genius ever sired that can somehow manage an empire easily beyond ten times the size of the most massive accomplishments of the most ambitious conquerors before you. Nobody can really manage that much landmass.

Nobody but the terminally bureaucratic wants to run the world; but a lot of people throughout history and fiction have wanted to rule or conquer the world. And again, that's my problem with Tarquin. He settled. He got smacked down and instead of figuring out how to smack back, decided to stay smacked. He's also shown the ability to put together a competent enough bureaucracy, that if he did take over the world, he could probably put together a workable government - not all world-running has to be done by the person in charge, after all. You have to have some delegation done if you're ever going to enjoy yourself.


Nale was a dreamer who wanted to be at the top but seems to have no idea how in the hell he'd get there or what he'd do once he did it. Tarquin is a realist who has figured out that the only real power in life is power you are in absolute control of, and power that can't just be taken away from you by a single unfortunate turn of events.

Except any power can be taken away by a single turn of events: someone could kill you. Tarquin is much more a realist than Nale, but that also is part of his weakness that I've been describing. He could have seized the gates and had one of his cohorts analyze it before deciding whether or not blowing it up was a good idea. Instead, he had pretty much already decided 'can't be sure I can control it right away, so I have to destroy it.' Nothing about trying to get the ritual from Xykon/Redcloak (and he doesn't know that Redcloak's part of the ritual is all in his head, either, so he can't fall back on that excuse) or trying to use the gate as a barganing chip.


In some ways, this is another parallel between Tarquin and Roy; both of them will generally take a boring but practical approach to assuring success rather than gamble enormous failure on something more glamorous with absolutely nothing backing it up.

See, I view Roy and Tarquin as being opposites in that regard: Tarquin was told/found out 'a warlord can't conquer their way across the Western Continent' and decided to no longer try. Roy was told 'A fighter has no chance of beating Xykon,' and immediately said 'Wanna bet?' It's as much a part of what makes a hero great and what makes a villain truly villainous - a willingness to push the boundaries of what's possible.

In a different campaign, he would make a very satisfying villain. But we've already seen there are bigger fish out there, and he doesn't even try to swim among them.

[Mike Havran]

I think your OP just described the confirmed fact that Tarquin is Wrong Genre Savvy, in different words.

He sees himself as the ultimate foe on Elan's way for reaching the perfect heroism, and he already has enough background tools - slave empire, powerful allies and recently, he made it personal by attacking his friends and framing his girlfriend's dad. Everything is ready for the confrontation, except now Elan has to spend some time getting stronger and getting new allies.

Tarquin doesn't really need or want to go chasing after some ludicrous artifact of doom - the stage for the finale is already set. Even if he knew about "the bigger fish" (and he doesn't really know about their size) he has no reason to swim with them.

[Forikroder]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does. He got beat once - hard - and lost his drive to push for anything less than a certain thing. He's taken the easy, safe path to moderate power rather than risk anything to try and be the best/worst among his field. Look at Xykon and Redcloak - they're both wanting something that will literally change the world around them in one way or another. Tarquin has been content to work behind the scenes, slowly expanding his empire across part of the Western Continent - and nothing has really changed. Anyone outside of his direct rule just see his nations as just another handful among the map of ever-shifting nations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), and there's still a lot of scattered nations they haven't clamed yet. And even if he somehow manages to conquer all the smaller desert nations, the southern and eastern lands won't be affected one whit.

To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

This is not to say he's been ineffective - just that he doesn't have The Wrong Stuff.
Redcloak and Xykon have been living hard lives in uncomfortalbe locales for the last few years, and one of them at least is guranteed to be dead by the end of all of this

whos smarter the person who risks everything to take over the world, or the one who risks nothing to take over a country?

sure taking over the world SOUNDS impressive, your ruler of the world after all, but really what does that entail?

well 1) your going to be forever busy defending your territory from the numberless rebel groups 2) your going to be responsible for solving all the words problems 3) you have access to the entire resoruces of an entire world

but realyl, who could possibly party so hard that they need an entire world worth of resources to have fun? look at tarquin his plan isnt even done yet and hes still has a life almost as good as someone who rules the world would have

[Ramien]

I think your OP just described the confirmed fact that Tarquin is Wrong Genre Savvy, in different words.

He sees himself as the ultimate foe on Elan's way for reaching the perfect heroism, and he already has enough background tools - slave empire, powerful allies and recently, he made it personal by attacking his friends and framing his girlfriend's dad. Everything is ready for the confrontation, except now Elan has to spend some time getting stronger and getting new allies.

Tarquin doesn't really need or want to go chasing after some ludicrous artifact of doom - the stage for the finale is already set. Even if he knew about "the bigger fish" (and he doesn't really know about their size) he has no reason to swim with them.

Yes and no. I was partially detailing what exactly he was wrong about, but don't forget a lot of his 'Elan will defeat me' didn't come about until after he met Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) Up until that point, he was very (right) Genre Savvy, and entirely correct in his analysis of the general situation. And yet he was still settling. Nale would still have been right for his criticisms then, I think, but it also would have come down to stylistic differences rather than 'who's the better villain?' Elan's heroism, though, made him start thinking his villain cred was higher than it actually was - the father/son conflict meant that he was destined to be the greatest villain of his time.

[Ramien]

Redcloak and Xykon have been living hard lives in uncomfortalbe locales for the last few years, and one of them at least is guranteed to be dead by the end of all of this

whos smarter the person who risks everything to take over the world, or the one who risks nothing to take over a country?

sure taking over the world SOUNDS impressive, your ruler of the world after all, but really what does that entail?

well 1) your going to be forever busy defending your territory from the numberless rebel groups 2) your going to be responsible for solving all the words problems 3) you have access to the entire resoruces of an entire world

but realyl, who could possibly party so hard that they need an entire world worth of resources to have fun? look at tarquin his plan isnt even done yet and hes still has a life almost as good as someone who rules the world would have

Who said anything about smart? Tarquin's always been very smart. Xykon is cunning, not smart, and Redcloak's got a rulebook or two stashed away that he reads more often than he should.

Why would a proper villain worry about solving all the world's problems? They're the bad guys. They won. Problem solving is for people who care about the peasants. For that matter, the definitions of what constitutes a problem is very different for some people. Ruling the world means that the ruler gets to make sure any problems are felt by other people, and isn't that what's truly important?

And for the ambitious villain, ruling the world is often a stepping stone in a greater plan - becoming a god, ultimate cosmic power, whatever. And only conquering part of the world means you've got even more people outside your control who may eventually decide they've had enough of you - better to just deal with the rebel groups.

[masamune1]

Except any power can be taken away by a single turn of events: someone could kill you. Tarquin is much more a realist than Nale, but that also is part of his weakness that I've been describing. He could have seized the gates and had one of his cohorts analyze it before deciding whether or not blowing it up was a good idea. Instead, he had pretty much already decided 'can't be sure I can control it right away, so I have to destroy it.' Nothing about trying to get the ritual from Xykon/Redcloak (and he doesn't know that Redcloak's part of the ritual is all in his head, either, so he can't fall back on that
excuse) or trying to use the gate as a barganing chip.

Ahem:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html

He was going to have cohorts analyse it before deciding whether or not to blow it up. He said he was probably going to destroy it, not that he had already decided to destroy it. He has no way of getting to Redcloak or Xykon and its highly unlikely he would be able to make either of them give the ritual up even if he did (and as you say, he doesn't even know that only Redcloak is the only one who knows it- so his odds are even worse than he thinks).

Not to mention he didn't even know that the Gates existed until probably a day earlier. Quite simply, he is just unwilling to sacrifice his working evil plan for a stupid chance that was unlikely to succeed anyway.

Apart from all that, I think you are underestimating Tarquin. He is not disinterested in world domination (he once said that Nale's plans for world domination were not "realistic", with the implication that his is). The fact that he went after the Gates in the first place shows that he is open to the idea. I doubt he would stop at the Western Continent (and having one evil tyrant run an entire continent- even in secret- is definitely something that could affect the other continents).

Xykon is only after the Gates because Redcloak introduced him to them. If he didn't know about them, that doesn't mean that he would be actively looking for some other world-threatening doomsday scheme- he'd just be, as he always does, out doing generally evil things for fun. He'd grab such a scheme if it fell on his lap, but Tarquin is no different. Tarquin is Xykon if he were a Lawful Evil Fighter- both are basically out for the freedom to live out their evil wishes whenever they want; they just go about it in different ways and have different styles. Xykon is no more or less ambitious than Tarquin, and Tarquin has more interests than just waiting for Elan to try and beat him. He and Elan telling a classic story for the ages is just one evil plan of many, and he isn't sitting on his ass until that happens (for one, he is still working on expanding his empires). The only big villain who is actually out to be a global threat is Redcloak, and lets face it- Redcloak won't be the main villain either.

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, I would say Tarquin's first major loss (that we know about) is losing custody of Elan to his first wife.

I'd say that was a tie, actually.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin is Xykon if he were a Lawful Evil Fighter- both are basically out for the freedom to live out their evil wishes whenever they want; they just go about it in different ways and have different styles.

I don't think they're similar at all. "Evil people who want to do whatever they want whenever they want" is a pretty big category of evil people. Tarquin cares too much about luxury and security/stability, whereas Xykon is basically a superpowerful hobo and flies head first into danger without thinking about it, which Tarquin would never do even if he had Xykon's power. As well as other big differences not really relevant to this topic.

Bear in mind Xykon is pretty much operating on the same vague knowledge of the Gates that Nale was.

[Mike Havran]

Yes and no. I was partially detailing what exactly he was wrong about, but don't forget a lot of his 'Elan will defeat me' didn't come about until after he met Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) Up until that point, he was very (right) Genre Savvy, and entirely correct in his analysis of the general situation. And yet he was still settling. Nale would still have been right for his criticisms then, I think, but it also would have come down to stylistic differences rather than 'who's the better villain?' Elan's heroism, though, made him start thinking his villain cred was higher than it actually was - the father/son conflict meant that he was destined to be the greatest villain of his time.The thing is, Tarquin learnt about the Gates only after he met Elan and "saw the big picture". Before that, he had no clues about a way of making the entire world bow to himself. He was simply doing his best to gain as much power as possible with minimal possible risk. He learnt the hard way that a straightforward assault campaign will not do it. But living in luxury and increasing his influence with a puppet scheme is certainly preferable to roaming as an outcast adventurer, looking for half-forgotten clues about artifacts that could grant him power, or raiding tombs with his party until the day they get killed.

If Tarquin knew about the gates before he met Elan, then Nale's criticism could be valid. But now, Tarquin clearly aims for the most valuable game. He just misunderstands that his aim is not the most valuable as far as the general story goes.

[wolfdreams01]

Pragmatic villainy is all well and good, but what was being done with Nale was beyond pragmatism or even a soft spot - Nale had made it obvious very long ago he wasn't going to play along with T's plans, but Tarquin kept trying to force the issue. He wasn't just happy keeping Nale alive, his control issues wanted Nale working for him still.


Come on, I think we all know that Nale secretly had a soft spot for Tarquin. Specifically, the one right under the sternum. :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

They got split custody (e.g. one child each). How is that a loss? It seems like an equitable division of family assets. And in fact, from comic #50, it appears Tarquin didn't want Elan.

And if Tarquin's goals included equitable divisions and fairness, rather than Tarquin manipulating everything so he's always in charge, you'd be right that it isn't a loss.

[F.Harr]

Of COURSE Tarquin has what it takes. Just not in this story. Tarquin is best suited to be the main villain in another type of story. If I had a copy of Plotus, I could tell you what page that story occurs on.

[halfeye]

Tarquin's loss was probably ending up with either of the twins, not failing to end up with both.

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin doesn't have what it takes to be a main villain, no matter how much he claims he does. He got beat once - hard - and lost his drive to push for anything less than a certain thing. He's taken the easy, safe path to moderate power rather than risk anything to try and be the best/worst among his field. Look at Xykon and Redcloak - they're both wanting something that will literally change the world around them in one way or another. Tarquin has been content to work behind the scenes, slowly expanding his empire across part of the Western Continent - and nothing has really changed. Anyone outside of his direct rule just see his nations as just another handful among the map of ever-shifting nations, and there's still a lot of scattered nations they haven't clamed yet. And even if he somehow manages to conquer all the smaller desert nations, the southern and eastern lands won't be affected one whit.

I'm not sure how this exactly holds water. I think there's an effective argument in Tarquin's aversion to risk that Xykon would be willing to take, and there's maybe a bit of a point there, but I think Tarquin would have an adequate retort.

It would seem to me that -- unless Tarquin is not telling the truth -- a LOT is implied to have changed. Yes, the nations are ever shifting, but by the nature of the plan, they are getting consistently larger. Because there can never be any more than 3 nations since they work in teams of 2 and there's 6 of them, there are 3 nations now where there was formerly a larger number. And change up the borders however you like, you'll still get no more than 3 nations for a certain area of land at any point in time over the last 25 years. That might not have been easy to notice in the first 5-10 years of the plan, but it would be pretty apparent now, if one were paying attention.

What that means is a greater cohesion, even if the state in question doesn't last that long. The palace under construction in Belledingham... would that have been possible 25 years ago? Would one of the former, tiny states be capable of such a construction project? I don't see how that would be possible: the states of before would have lacked the resources and central planning from one existent state to the next. This way, the state that replaces the one that came before has just as much if not more resources whatever way you slice the borders (or maybe they shrink it down during once cycle, but would have that part of the territory in a much larger section next time around), and the 'advisors' are much more willing to pick up the domestic plans of the last administration since that was either their own plans to begin with or the plans of one of the original 6. Which would mean a TON has changed. Evil or not, it means there's more cohesive planning, rule of law, minimal disruption, etc. It's a state of law wearing the face of chaos as opposed to the state of actual chaos which ruled before.



To be honest, the person he reminds me of most at the moment is Therkla. He tries to play all his major pawns and allies against each other, but has been completely unwilling to sacrifice any of them until Nale forced his hand. Look at all the interplay between Tarquin, Nale, and Malack, and his last conversation with Nale - No matter what Nale did, Tarquin was always trying to get Nale to work together with the rest of his group and to get his group to take Nale in.

How is this like Therkla? Therkla didn't have any pawns. She actually seemed to care for the people she thought she cared for. She was certainly willing to sacrifice things for them.


This is not to say he's been ineffective - just that he doesn't have The Wrong Stuff.

Perhaps, to the impatient observer. Tarquin is playing the long game though: the game of incremental progress.

[Super Evil User]

When has Tarquin ever said that he wanted to be the main villain? He seems pretty content where he is right now.

[warrl]

When has Tarquin ever said that he wanted to be the main villain? He seems pretty content where he is right now.

Tarquin does not "want to be" the main villain.

He "believes he is" the main villain.

And there could be a pretty good story with him, just as he is, as the main villain. Elan could even be the hero that brings him down. (Nale was never a candidate. At most, in the final denouement after Elan and company have pierced or shattered the last of Tarquin's defenses, Nale might backstab Tarquin and try to take over, only to be killed a few seconds later by one of Elan's group.)

For that matter, from what Tarquin knows, his being the main villain is credible. HE is the mastermind of a plot to take over most of a continent and form an evil empire, unnoticed. HE is the ruler-behind-the-throne of one of the three constituent parts of that empire, probably with a plot already in progress to replace the person on the throne with another easily-manipulated dupe, and behind-the-scenes advisor to the rulers-behind-the-throne of the other two parts.

And you're trying to tell him that these two individuals, who after all their efforts have made no visible enduring progress toward their goal - they don't even have an army behind them - are the actual main villains?

(If he's aware of Gobbotopia - would he imagine that a real main villain might walk away from a power-and-resource base like that? Xykon did.)

Elan being the great hero to bring him down is less credible. The Elan we actually have, that is. But if Tarquin were in fact the main villain, his current course of action might well prove to be what it takes to provoke a transformation in Elan.

Sadly for him, Tarquin is NOT the main villain in the story actually being told. Elan is not the great hero, and will not become the great hero. Roy is the great hero. Redcloak is the main villain.

(Yes, Redcloak. He rules Team Evil, and Gobbotopia, in the same fashion that Tarquin rules the Empire of Blood - with, granted, more useful figureheads. He has a plot in progress to overthrow the figurehead ruler of Team Evil; as the national founding hero of Gobbotopia, he can probably overthrow *that* figurehead with a written note.)

[Nilan8888]

But if Roy is the Great Hero, how can RedCloak be the main villain?

Yes, to a certain extent RedCloak 'rules' team evil... or at least thinks he does, and yes, there's an argument to be made on that behalf... although to be fair, it's arguable... but there's no personal story or conflict between Roy and RedCloak. The conflict is between Roy and Xykon.

Xykon is the one who killed Fryon. Xykon is the one Eugene hunted. Xykon is the one who is the focus of the blood oath. In Roy's narrative as the great hero, RedCloak is simply something Xykon went on to do AFTER he encountered the Greenhilt family. But Roy would be fighting Xykon whether or not this whole goblin thing existed or not (let alone the whole Snarl plot).

[Mike Havran]

Xykon is the main villain, Redcloak is the driver of the general plot. From our -the audience- point. But in-universe, the term "main plot" is somewhat relative. Main plot for Redcloak and Roy combined is pretty close to what we perceive as the main story. But from say, Hinjo's perspective, the "story" looks rather different. The same goes for MitD. Or Bozzok. Or Leeky. Or Tarquin.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Tarquin is perfectly capable of being a main villain for a story. He simply doesn't happen to be, for this one.

[Jay R]

Tarquin is perfectly capable of being a main villain for a story. He simply doesn't happen to be, for this one.

It's worth pointing out that he is the main, or at least the most active, villain in Book 5.

[Raenir Salazar]

I'm with some of the others in agreeing that I think Tarquin's objectives are in fact of the moderate kind. He wants to rule a continent in one way or another and its working, and even better he will maintain a legacy that could very well echo in the history books for a thousand years hence by arranging an elaborate suicide by having his "Hero" son kill him at the peak of his power. And we all know when one reaches their peak they're doomed to decline and fall anyways so for him that is the best of all worlds. Better to die with his reputation at its greatest than to die of a stroke in foul himself in bed.

He's kinda right and wrong at the sametime regarding thinking himself the main villain though, true, Xykon is the bigger threat to the world, and Tarquin is small fry in comparison to that, since he can always be convinced to stay out of the way of stopping Xykon.

But after that, I think the "Scouring of the Shire" makes the perfect analogy for Elan, for Elan, the ultimate accomplishment of his character arc is stopping his father and trying to make the western continent a better place without having to rely on his father's machiavellian scheming. As another poster said in a different thread, stopping Xykon doesn't stop Tarquin. And even killing Tarquin doesn't actually undo his work, the smattering of Varying evil empires will still exist, their armies still exist, their slaves still exist as do their institutions now free to pursue their own agenda's with new "mini" tarquins ready to step up. Where once there was Order there would be new anarchy and chaos, with potentially a greater loss of life before a new Hegemony can be founded on a new order.

[Kish]

But after that, I think the "Scouring of the Shire" makes the perfect analogy for Elan
I didn't think the Scouring of the Shire-style "and we have this whole rather long part after the story's end" was popular enough that I'd be betting on Rich trying to duplicate it, m'self.

[F.Harr]

I didn't think the Scouring of the Shire-style "and we have this whole rather long part after the story's end" was popular enough that I'd be betting on Rich trying to duplicate it, m'self.

It wasn't after the story's end. It was the POINT of the story.

[JSSheridan]

Nale's fatal flaw was his vanity. He wanted everyone to know that he won.

Tarquin realized this would get him killed, so he was able to let it go.

So Nale was right, if his vanity was worth dying for.

[masamune1]

I don't think they're similar at all. "Evil people who want to do whatever they want whenever they want" is a pretty big category of evil people. Tarquin cares too much about luxury and security/stability, whereas Xykon is basically a superpowerful hobo and flies head first into danger without thinking about it, which Tarquin would never do even if he had Xykon's power. As well as other big differences not really relevant to this topic.

Bear in mind Xykon is pretty much operating on the same vague knowledge of the Gates that Nale was.

Similar in the sense that they are both psychopaths. And the "want to do whatever they want" stands out because that's pretty much their prime motivation, not just one of many things that they wish- that, and what they want is to torture and kill anyone they wish to, and they have an utter lack of empathy.

They have different styles, but they are pretty similar. Both are control freaks- Tarquin likes to micromanage everything, Xykon likes to be so in control that he doesn't have to micromanage everything; both are thrill seekers- Tarquin is willing to fly headfirst into danger without thinking (he took on the OotS by himself, with only a rough idea of their levels and abilities) and Xykon can be calculating when he wants to be; both are hedonists; both are sadists; both are remorseless; both enjoy fighting heroes to the death; both are murderously defensive of their rep...Yeah, they have quite a few similarities. They might seem different on the surface, but peel beneath their skin and they are two sides of the same coin. Identical opposites, more or less.

Xykon knows a lot more about the Gates than Nale. It was Xykon who first explained what the Gates are, and he and Redcloak have been after the Gates for decades and have the journal of one of the Order of the Scribble. The only thing he doesn't really know is the ritual- and its likely Redcloak is underestimating him if he thinks he can keep it from him or doesn't suspect his treachery. And unlike Nale, he knows that Redcloak is the only one who knows it.

[Gift Jeraff]

It was Xykon who first explained what the Gates are, and he and Redcloak have been after the Gates for decades and have the journal of one of the Order of the Scribble.

It was Redcloak who first explained what the Gates are to Xykon. He was given the same basic information as Nale (bad guys are trying to capture a Gate which seals off a god-killing abomination) and jumped to the same conclusion (said bad guys must therefore have a means of controlling the abomination). The only things he's really learned of since then (that we know of) are that there are more Gates and their coordinates. Nothing about their power or how controllable said power is.

[Jay R]

Nale's fatal flaw was his vanity. He wanted everyone to know that he won.

Tarquin realized this would get him killed, so he was able to let it go.

So Nale was right, if his vanity was worth dying for.

His vanity might be worth dying for, but he didn't die for his vanity; he lost that too. Everybody now knows that Nale lost.

[F.Harr]

His vanity might be worth dying for, but he didn't die for his vanity; he lost that too. Everybody now knows that Nale lost.

Well, just 'cause you died for something doesn't mean you GOT it.

[halfeye]

His vanity might be worth dying for, but he didn't die for his vanity; he lost that too. Everybody now knows that Nale lost. Well, just 'cause you died for something doesn't mean you GOT it.
However, in English, vanity is belief in yourself, particularly when it's not based in reality. Nale probably still does have his exaggerated belief in his own worth, i.e. his vanity. Yes it killed him, yes he still has it.

[Dust]

Tarquin is the sort of individual to go on a long-winded speech about how men acquire power and what it truly means. A well-timed word whispered to the right ear at the perfect moment can be a dangerous thing. A show of force and intimidation to weaken the hearts of men can completely altar the outcome of a war. The capacity to plan and the patience to wait as long as it takes - for weeks, months, years, or even centuries - to see the seed of ones labor bear fruit....that, Tarquin would say, that's the stuff that real power comes from.

But you know what?

Power equals power.

[F.Harr]

Perhaps, but Tarquin has a LOT of it.