Spellswords and you.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Ever since I played The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion I loved the archetype of a heavy armored dude and a heavy blade who can cast spells. Im just a sucker for gish characters since the first time I played DnD, but din't care as much for Heavy Armors back then.

So the question is: How do you make a viable Spellsword?

Normally I go human, fighter and wizard and then go to the prestige class.

But wich feats works best? I am fiding improved initiative and dodge to be awesome the first levels. But are power attack, cleave, weapon focus and combat expertise line (disarm and such) worth it?

What about crafting? Those are more feats to consider and I like my characters to be viable very early on (level 4-6 or so)

And metamagic or magic? I find extended spell a must, but don't know about the others: spell focus, spell penetration, etc.

Wich school if any? Is difficult since mage armor is really great early on, but if I go transmutation I need to pick 2 schools to get rid of. I can't get rid of divination. Evocation is nice for the spellsword channel spell. Illusion have lot of utility and some great buffs (heroism). Necromancy have the super usefull Ray of Enfeeblement (wich rocks when you have more attack bonus than most single classed arcane spellcasters). Conjuration have mage armor (don't know why).

Wich weapon? Greatswords works really well, but I like the flavor of a Longsword a lot.

And last, how do you survive the first levels when you suck so hard? Do you play like a wizard with no armor, buffs and a sword. Or as a fighter with armor, sword, poor bab and low hp and spellcast failure?

Im not a total minmaxer, I try to roleplay my character more than I like to minmax every aspect of his character sheet, but I don't want to be a dead weight for my team.

Thanks in advance for any replies, =)

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. Depending on what you want out of your spellsword? I"d actually suggest going for a Divine Chassis. That way you CAN have your heavy armor. And if you pick the right classes, you can still have some of the more typical Elder Scrolls Blasty effect fun.

Consider say.. a Paladin/Shugenja mix. Paladins gets you the heavy armor, some nice defenses, healing, etc. Focuses on Charisma a lot and there's actually quite a lot of useful feats/ACFs/Stuff out there that was made for Paladins. Shugenjas have less support in books. But that also means it's not going to be hogging up your resources. As Shugenjas are divine casters, no need to worry about being Unarmored and Spell Failure. If you want to go all "Blasty" you could take the Fire School, get your Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc. Buffs and defenses are more Earth School, and Air School (Which also has illusions), while the Water School tends to be more Healomancy type focused.

Improved Initiative is always a good choice for first level, if you have nothing better to do. Since your Paladin/Shugenja CAN wear armor, you don't need dodge. You probably don't want Dodge anyway, it's not that good, only take it if you need it as a Prerequisite for something else. The only problem is what point to cut off the Paladin Levels, or order that you want to put them in.

If you go Shugenja first, you'll be squishy. They don't have armor. But this will let you pad out your later levels with Paladin and Paladin PrCs without worries. If you go Paladin first, you have to be aware that when you pick up the Shugenja class you're forfeiting your rights to level Paladin more. So you want a good cut off point. Level 2 is often suggested as you get Divine Grace as that level, and is a good idea.

So you might go Paladin 2, Shugenja 4, Divine PrCs of choice.

[Lord Haart]

Ever since I played The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion I loved the archetype of a heavy armored dude and a heavy blade who can cast spells. Im just a sucker for gish characters since the first time I played DnD, but din't care as much for Heavy Armors back then.

I sooo understand you. While in mine case it's caused not by TES but by its lesser-known rival series Gothic (too bad there were only three games (http://xkcd.com/566/)) and, to the lesser extent, by a ton of other games with "magic knight" archetype heroes (and villains, and evil overlords), the end result is the same: puzzlement at how 3.5 developers hated the gish archetype (along with the "spellcaster that has both flashy offense and healing spells" archetype) until the latest books (while definitely not the most important reason, it plays a role in my simpathy to 4e: it switched its holy cows to "at-will flight and other movement modes" and "having defining class features, rather than just far less thematical powers, from two classes at once", allowing for a multitude of more or less valid ways to make an armored magic-user of choice).

And let's face it: the easiest solution is quoted right down in my signature (the second quote). Shugenja (with a dip into any armor-wielding class; no proficiency in class, but no ASF either, since divine), divine bards, psychic warriors (and other psionic classes), dragonfire adepts, binders, duskblades, mystic rangers of high enough level are also good at combining spellcasting and heavy armor; combining spellcasting and medium armor is relatively trivial (there is a feat that turns "no ACF in light armor", which many classes may get, into "no ACF in medium armor"; to my once great despair, it can't be taken twice, but if starting wealth allows the Mithrail Fullplate, that becomes a non-problem). List of good prestige classes for that is even longer (special mention goes to Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator; the later adds a lot of extra melee "oomph" if you picked a divine caster as your base character, and the former does the same for an arcane gish but doesn't do anything with armor problem per se). There's also a handbook about that (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786), and you can google a lot of discussions about gish in the more strict, charop definition (16 BAB and 9th-level spellcasting at level 20, if i remember correctly).

However, spellsword isn't the best way to go about it. It has a slow spellcasting progression, and lessening armor spell failure is generally inferior in an obvious way to not having it at all with a given type of armor. That doesn't mean it's a bad class or that it can't be optimised, but if you aren't hell-bent on going into that particular prestige class, i suggest you consider other options out there.

Sorry for lack of answers to your actual questions. Hope someone else gives them (or i visit the thread myself later, when i'm in mood for specifics).

[Gray Mage]

While spellsword isn't that great, the first level can be very usefull.

You can probably adapt the more common sorcadin build, so maybe something like Fighter 2/Wiz 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (from complete mage)/Something else.

You're probably going to use a bunch of buffs on yourself, plus the odd utility/BFC spell.

Power attack should suit you well if you use a two handed weapon and cleave isn't too shaby, IMO. I'd personally skip Dodge and the Weapon focus line, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most Gish builds use Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage, which makes buffing with (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) automatically better than any physical armor you'll ever be able to obtain.

If you insist on using physical armor though, there are quite a few ways to get around arcane spell failure:

The Runesmith prestige class (RoS) allows you to cast spells as runes instead of using somatic components, removing any chance of arcane spell failure. You could easily go Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Runesmith 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8 and get 18/20 spellcasting and 17/20 BAB. If you want enough Spellsword to get Channel Spell, Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Runesmith 2/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 4 (or Dragonslayer 1/ Ruathar 3) will accomplish that and still get 17/20 spellcasting and 16/20 BAB.

Without Runesmith, there are many ways to simply reduce ASF:
The Twilight magic armor/shield property (PH2 p21) costs a +1 and reduces the ASF by 10%.
Mithral (DMG) reduces ASF by 10% for metal armor and shields.
A Thistledown Suit (RotW p168) is a special set of padding worn under certain types of armor that reduces ASF by 5%.
Feycraft armor (DMG2 p275) reduces ASF by 5%, only light or medium armor and wooden shields, base item must be made by a Fey creature type or someone under the magical influence of a Fey and not within a small town or larger size settlement.
Githcraft armor (DMG2 p276) reduces ASF by 5% for armor and shields, the base item must be made by a Githyanki on the Astral Plane.

Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit has an ASF of 10%, you can negate that with a single Spellsword level or with the Twilight property.
Twilight Mithral Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit has an ASF of 10%, you can negate that with a single Spellsword level.
You can get a Githcraft Mithral Heavy Sheld with a natural ASF of 0% for 1,620 gp and that's not even magical.

[Story]

If you're starting at mid-high levels, you don't even have to take any levels in a martial class. Just go Incantrix/Anima Mage/whatever and persist your buffs of choice. Being able to persist Wraithstrike and the like gives you far more than a level of Fighter would, and it leaves the caster side much more useful too.

Complete Adventurer has a lot of low level persistable gish friendly spells. Just persist a couple buffs each morning and you can go around bashing stuff with your sword all day and you still have god-like powers if an emergency comes up.

If you don't mind having divine casting instead of arcane, Cleric can do this even easier.

Normally these tactics are considered OP, but if all you're doing is pretending to be a fighter, it should be fine.

[JaronK]

Runesmith is devastatingly powerful. Binder 1 (Bind Sovok for proficiencies)/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Runesmith 5 is amazing, and you can feel free to start taking Runesmith levels as soon as you qualify (no need to wait for AM10). Have fun with your Spell Like True Creation and similar insanity.

JaronK

[Con_Brio1993]

Honestly a Duskblade pretty much sounds exactly like what you want.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I know Cleric or Paladin are best way to deal with all the hassle problem the achetype has.

Never had tried Duskblade nor hexblade through.

Gonna look for all those prestige classes. Gonna try abjurant champion, since is an easy requirement prestige class with only 5 levels in it.

But I want to try making the achetype work without much dippin' in the prestige. Me and my friends play mostly with the core and the completes and with elites array for fainess to everyone, so we avoid using too much books for referencing and such.

So heres a simple build.

Renault Cavalier, Human Tethryan Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 10/Eldritch Knight 3

HD 1d10 + 6d4+10d8+3d6 +40 Hp 119

Str:14
Dex:13
Con:12 ( +2lvl up)
Int: 15 (+3 lvl up)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Bab: 17
Caster Level: 13 + 4 from practiced spell caster.

Base Saves: 12 fort, 6 reflex, 13 will

Special: Ignore spell failure 30, channel spell 5/day Multiple channel spell.


Feats 7 + 3 fighter feats + 1 wizard feat +1 human feat. Improved initiative, Dodge, weapon focus (greatsword), Extend spell, practiced spellcaster are core leaving 7 feats to choose from. Weapon focus and improved initiative could be changed, but I find they are really usefull when we are a fighter with 1 to 5 levels of wizard and we are at our weakest. Remember, we are trying to survive before we dip in prestige classes.

Spells:

Lvl 0: 4, lvl 1: 4, lvl 2: 4, lvl 3: 4, lvl 4: 4, lvl 5: 3, lvl 6: 3: lvl 7: 3.

Plus int bonus and 1 more if we choose a magic school.



Pros: High fort and will saves, high attack bonus, almost complete caster lvl for purpose of spell variables and dispel resistance. Almost no arcane spell failure even in mundane full plate armor. PLenty of feats to burn.

Cons: Poor reflex saves, only 7th lvl spells and medium hp (at best, the 5 wizard lvls relly hurt the hp progression). If we take persistent spell, we can only have 24 hours duration on lvl 1 spells.

I guess eldirtch knight could be traded by a abjurant champion. 4 lvls could be enough for our purposes. More lvls of Spellsword could be sacrified for more spell progresión.

The highlight of the build is spell channel and arcane strike, or what I want to call "Smite Everything". Two vampiric touchs would add 18d6 damage plus hp and a 7 lvl spell could add +7 attack and 7d4 damage.

A smite everything attack plus power attack and a +5 sword could kill low to medium hp opponents outright.

Ex: +5 keen flaming greatsword used as weapon. Bullstrenght as our only combat buff since i havent decided most of our spells, but a tenser transformation is possible. Weapon focus, bab 17 and a 7 lvl spell for arcane strike with a 5 to power attack if we choose it.

That would be a attack with +30 to hit and 2d6 + 6 (str) + 5 (power attack) +5 (magic weapon) +1d6 of fire damage + 18d6 vampiric touch damage +7d4 arcane strike damage.



But I dont think if smite everything and ignore 30 arcane spell failure is worth 8 and 9 lvl spells. But at a role play char I think I like it, is like a Paladin of Mystra.

[Gray Mage]

Renault Cavalier, Human Tethryan Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellsword 10/Eldritch Knight 4


How are you entering Spellsword at level 6? You need +4 BAB, and Fighter 1/Wizard 5 gives you +3. :smallconfused:

[Nachoman_Randy]

How are you entering Spellsword at level 6? You need +4 BAB, and Fighter 1/Wizard 5 gives you +3. :smallconfused:

You are right, messed up the requirements. fixing it.

[Snowbluff]

Runesmith is devastatingly powerful. Binder 1 (Bind Sovok for proficiencies)/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Runesmith 5 is amazing, and you can feel free to start taking Runesmith levels as soon as you qualify (no need to wait for AM10). Have fun with your Spell Like True Creation and similar insanity.

JaronK

I am going to second runesmith. I am not so sure about Anima mage in this build, however. You do get 2 bindings when you are not trying to qualify for Runesmith, which is something you should have made more obvious. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How are you entering Spellsword at level 6? You need +4 BAB, and Fighter 1/Wizard 5 gives you +3. :smallconfused:

He can put one of those Eldritch Knight levels ahead of it, he only needs 3rd level spells to qualify for that.

However, it's still a very, very weak build. It loses seven levels of spellcasting, which is over twice as many as any respectable gish build should ever sacrifice. Nobody will ever need that many levels in Spellsword, ever. There's just no incentive to stick with that class beyond the 5th level, and that's only if you really really want Channel Spell.

By the time you hit level 12 on this type of character, you're going to use either Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon to take the form of a War Troll in MM3 during combat. That gives you a large size form with +14 natural armor, Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29, and their Dazing Blow special ability. Assuming your armor is able to be worn by a large size humanoid form, you don't want it to have a max dex bonus of less than +3, which means Mithral Full Plate or a normal Breastplate. I've already demonstrated that you can have a 0% arcane spell failure chance in mithral full plate with only a single level in Spellsword. Even if your armor can't resize to that form, just using Mage Armor and getting that +14 natural armor is better than wearing +5 Full Plate.

Casting spells in heavy armor is a gimmick that's only useful in the low levels. A properly built character who uses that needs to be able to do so without crippling himself (i.e. losing too many caster levels from multiclassing and prestige classes), because when you hit the mid to late levels you need to be able to transition into the better options that become available.

If you want to blow stuff up while wearing heavy armor, you can easily do that with a Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), plus the powerpoint system is more similar to the Elder Scrolls games' magicka points than prepared or spontaneous casting. Just remember that your manifester level is always the maximum number of power points that you can ever spend on a single power. They don't get proficiency in heavy armor, but you can make your character a Warforged (MM3, ECS) with the Adamantine Body feat to effectively start out wearing a permanent suit of adamantine full plate which you're automatically proficient in.

[Con_Brio1993]

Duskblade is a class from the PHBII, and is pretty much a gish in a can. You get spells you can channel into your sword for massive damage.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/

[Nachoman_Randy]

He can put one of those Eldritch Knight levels ahead of it, he only needs 3rd level spells to qualify for that.

However, it's still a very, very weak build. It loses seven levels of spellcasting, which is over twice as many as any respectable gish build should ever sacrifice. Nobody will ever need that many levels in Spellsword, ever. There's just no incentive to stick with that class beyond the 5th level, and that's only if you really really want Channel Spell.

By the time you hit level 12 on this type of character, you're going to use either Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon to take the form of a War Troll in MM3 during combat. That gives you a large size form with +14 natural armor, Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29, and their Dazing Blow special ability. Assuming your armor is able to be worn by a large size humanoid form, you don't want it to have a max dex bonus of less than +3, which means Mithral Full Plate or a normal Breastplate. I've already demonstrated that you can have a 0% arcane spell failure chance in mithral full plate with only a single level in Spellsword. Even if your armor can't resize to that form, just using Mage Armor and getting that +14 natural armor is better than wearing +5 Full Plate.

Casting spells in heavy armor is a gimmick that's only useful in the low levels. A properly built character who uses that needs to be able to do so without crippling himself (i.e. losing too many caster levels from multiclassing and prestige classes), because when you hit the mid to late levels you need to be able to transition into the better options that become available.

If you want to blow stuff up while wearing heavy armor, you can easily do that with a Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), plus the powerpoint system is more similar to the Elder Scrolls games' magicka points than prepared or spontaneous casting. Just remember that your manifester level is always the maximum number of power points that you can ever spend on a single power. They don't get proficiency in heavy armor, but you can make your character a Warforged (MM3, ECS) with the Adamantine Body feat to effectively start out wearing a permanent suit of adamantine full plate which you're automatically proficient in.

Actually I fixed it, since I don't want to depend in eldritch knight, since I want to use it as philler or be replaced by the abjurant champion or something similar.

You are right about not needing all those lvls in spellsword. Since I know that the first lvl is the best one in that prestige class, and the fith douable at best.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Duskblade is a class from the PHBII, and is pretty much a gish in a can. You get spells you can channel into your sword for massive damage.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/

Never had tried duskblade, din't liked the fact they had their own spell list. But will try one in the future.

[JaronK]

I am going to second runesmith. I am not so sure about Anima mage in this build, however. You do get 2 bindings when you are not trying to qualify for Runesmith, which is something you should have made more obvious. :smalltongue:

True. And with Anima Mage, you can also persist Wizard spells... Persistent Wraithstrike is just the beginning of that madness.

JaronK

[A_S]

You mentioned wanting to roleplay the character as a Paladin of Mystra, if I understood you correctly. If that's actually what you're going for, I feel obliged to point out that the "sorcadin" is one of the most classic mage/warrior hybrid builds there is. It's:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Feats should include:
-Power Attack
-Combat Casting (requirement)
-Arcane Strike
-The Divine feat of your choice, to make use of your Turn Undead pool (I like Divine Might)

The rest is up to you.

Starting at level 7, the character can comfortably wear a suit of Feycraft Twilight Mithral Full Plate with 0% ASF for the rest of their career.

[Nachoman_Randy]

True. And with Anima Mage, you can also persist Wizard spells... Persistent Wraithstrike is just the beginning of that madness.

JaronK

Once I made a simplier build fighter 2/wizard 8/eldritch knight 10. Persistent haste is beautiful and everyone loved me.

[Nachoman_Randy]

You mentioned wanting to roleplay the character as a Paladin of Mystra, if I understood you correctly. If that's actually what you're going for, I feel obliged to point out that the "sorcadin" is one of the most classic mage/warrior hybrid builds there is. It's:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Feats should include:
-Power Attack
-Combat Casting (requirement)
-Arcane Strike
-The Divine feat of your choice, to make use of your Turn Undead pool (I like Divine Might)

The rest is up to you.

Starting at level 7, the character can comfortably wear a suit of Feycraft Twilight Mithral Full Plate with 0% ASF for the rest of their career.

Personally I like wizard more than sorcerer for Renault and I dont like the stick in his ass. But the sorcadin is really powerfull and I might try it for another char.

[A_S]

Once I made a simplier build fighter 2/wizard 8/eldritch knight 10. Persistent haste is beautiful and everyone loved me.
Haste is, unfortunately, not persistable (it has neither a fixed range nor a personal range). Unless you cheese it through via Ocular Spell.

I've never really understood why this restriction exists, though, so throwing it out seems like a reasonable houserule.

Personally I like wizard more than sorcerer for Renault and I dont like the stick in his ass. But the sorcadin is really powerfull and I might try it for another char.
Ah, sorry, I thought I understood from your post that you liked the idea of playing as a paladin.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Haste is, unfortunately, not persistable (it has neither a fixed range nor a personal range). Unless you cheese it through via Ocular Spell.

I've never really understood why this restriction exists, though, so throwing it out seems like a reasonable houserule.

Ah, sorry, I thought I understood from your post that you liked the idea of playing as a paladin.

I got an idea for a organization wich helps the populace and the country but without the assisting of gods. Like a alternative for churches of Tyr and such with human supremacy through magic as their sole goal.

[Snowbluff]

True. And with Anima Mage, you can also persist Wizard spells... Persistent Wraithstrike is just the beginning of that madness.

JaronK

Indeed, dark times are ahead with free touch attacks! :smallbiggrin:

[Story]

I've never really understood why this restriction exists, though, so throwing it out seems like a reasonable houserule.
.

It is really frustrating too, since as a god wizard, you want to help out the party, not overshadow them. But no, you can only obscenely buff yourself for some reason. At least Clerics can help out with a Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Either way, I think a fully minmaxed gish is tier 1 or 2, and my build with the 10 spellsword level should be tier 3, good enough.