[3.5] Build My Nightmare

[Red Fel]

I have decided that, despite the availability of far superior feats with much broader application, that the Live My Nightmare spelltouched feat is awesome. (For those unfamiliar, here is a link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare) to the SRD.) I understand that there is a prereq (get hit with Phantasmal Killer) but let's pretend for the purposes of this build that this has been addressed.

The saves against its effect, however (DC 14 + Cha modifier) are not impressive... Unless you have a high Cha. Herein stir the rumblings of a plot.

This is another creative building exercise. The goal is to create a viable character build that uses Live My Nightmare. Any WOTC books are available, (no 3rd parties or homebrews, please) no level limit.

The flavor for the character is Chaotic Good, highly freedom-oriented. This is a character so devoted to the idea of her/his own autonomy that s/he has no qualms about potentially killing anybody who tries to pry into her/his brain, but is otherwise generally a pleasant person.

My first two goals, which I'm pursuing at the same time, are Races and Classes.

With regard to race, I want something with (obviously) a naturally high charisma, and (ideally) a low (or zero) LA. Templates are also an option. So far, I'm aware of:

Races:
- Star Elf (Unapproachable East): +2 Cha, -2 Con
- Hellbred (Spirit) (Fiendish Codex II): +2 Cha, -2 Con
- Lesser Aasimar (PG to Faerun): +2 Wis, +2 Cha
- Spellscale (Races of the Dragon): +2 Cha, -2 Con

Templates:
- Magic Blooded (Spark): -2 Wis, +2 Cha (Note: 3.0)
- Unseelie Fey: -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 LA
- Phrenic: +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +2 LA

With regard to class, I want to make use of that Cha score - seems a waste not to. I generally prefer more physical roles as opposed to casting, due to my lack of experience with the latter, but I'm not opposed to trying out a user-friendly pewpew class. I also want something that a CG-type can work into. So far I have:
PHB:
- Bard: Pro, gets Cha to spellcasting, perform; Con, it's a bard, and it's probably not a Disciple of Metal (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1116756).
- Cleric: Pro, gets Cha to turn undead, gets lots of spells, BAB, clerics are comfortably powerful; Con, the Cha only helps with regard to turns and skills
- Paladin: Pro, gets Cha to various class abilities, good BAB, light spellcasting; Con, requires Lawful - somehow I don't see LG killing anyone who peeks into his brain with nightmare phantoms
- Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny): Gets around the Lawful problem, but on the other hand, we're still dealing with pallyness, your mileage may vary
- Sorcerer: Pro, gets Cha to spellcasting, lots of powerful pewpews, great flavor, plenty of options; Con, I've never played a caster and wouldn't know where to begin

Other Books:
- Crusader (Tome of Battle): Gets some mild boost from Cha, but doesn't need it nearly as much as Str/Con/Dex
- Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum): Is rubbish
- Favored Soul/Dread Necromancer/Warlock/bunch of other caster classes: As mentioned, I don't know where to begin with casters
- Samurai (Complete Warrior): Charisma to intimidate, but other than that...? Also, Lawful
So, my first step, in essence: Where should I go about setting up race, possibly template, and class(es) for a Cha-focused character?

[Azoth]

For +0LA We can use a Magic Blooded (spark), Unseelie Fey, Lesser Aasimar to gain racial +6 bonus to Charisma. That seems like a pretty good starting point.

For +2 LA we can throw on Phrenic Creature cranking it to +10. Take two class levels to gain the Half-Fey template thanks to Savage Progression to crank it to +14. Make your first level feat Magic in the Blood, and you are done.

That set up gives a +14 Racial bonus to Charisma for the cost of 2 levels with LA Buyoff and around 30 SLA/PLA to use 3/day each. Your other 18 levels could be Complete Warrior Samurai and you are set.

[Red Fel]

For +0LA We can use a Magic Blooded (spark), Unseelie Fey, Lesser Aasimar to gain racial +6 bonus to Charisma. That seems like a pretty good starting point.

Okay, so I like Magic Blooded and Lesser Aasimar. That's +4 Cha, the Wis bonus and penalty offset, and I like the little extras. My issue with Unseelie Fey is the "Always Evil" alignment bit. Could fluff it, but that's a bit of a chafing point. Not to mention, iron vulnerability hurts if I end up going melee as opposed to caster. Finally, I kind of question how many templates a GM will let me stack on a given build.


For +2 LA we can throw on Phrenic Creature cranking it to +10. Take two class levels to gain the Half-Fey template thanks to Savage Progression to crank it to +14. Make your first level feat Magic in the Blood, and you are done.

I like Phrenic, although I'm not a fan of the LA; it feels like a waste if I don't end up going psionic, though. Half-Fey, similar issue: the boosts are nice, the high LA not so much.


That set up gives a +14 Racial bonus to Charisma for the cost of 2 levels with LA Buyoff and around 30 SLA/PLA to use 3/day each. Your other 18 levels could be Complete Warrior Samurai and you are set.

I'm looking at the Samurai class right now, and it seems to consist of three factors: (1) Use basic attacks while dual wielding, (2) Use Charisma to intimidate, and (3) Be super lawful. Number (1) sounds a bit dull, given that there are classes which can do more than just "I hit the monster; does it fall down yet?" Number (2) seems useful, but again limited. And number (3) does not fit the aforementioned CG flavor. I'm pretty sure that at a certain point a Samurai who brainkills anyone who uses divination on them will become an Ex-Samurai.

But I like the starting point. And if I go caster, Magic Blooded (Spark) really pulls its weight. Fact is, if I were willing to take an LA, why take Lesser Aasimar when full Aasimar is only +1, and adds daily use of Daylight, plus resistances?

EDIT: And I just noticed, Magic-Blooded is 3.0. Was it ever ported to 3.5?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anything 3.0 is officially still valid for use in 3.5 as-is, though certain specific portions may need updated (Magic Aura and Undetectable Aura were combined into one spell).

You can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) a +2 LA easy enough, spending 7,000 xp at your 6th character level/ECL 8 and 9,000 xp at your 9th character level/ECL 10. It's even better if you can gradually gain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) it, get the first point before your first class level, buy it off for 3,000 xp at your 3rd character level/ECL 4, gain the second point of LA with your next level, after three more character levels buy it off for 6,000 xp at your 6th character level/ECL 7. Pick up Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and you'll get a 10% bonus on all current and future xp, including that xp you spend to buy off a level adjustment, so you'll be able to catch up that much faster. I'd go Half-Fey (Fiend Folio) over Phrenic, you get the same Cha boost, plus wings and tricky/versatile spell-like abilities.

A high Cha score is perfect for a Fear build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), something like Bard 8/ Dread Witch 1/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4, using Inspire Awe (DM), Healing Hymn (CC), and Spellbreaker Song (CM) for Bard, plus you can trade your Suggestion song for Haunting Melody (ECS). Use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, especially since a Lesser Aasimar is already a Humanoid instead of Outsider, and you can get the feat Dreadful Wrath (PGtF). I've suggested this type of build before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4), though this one won't get the Inimidate bonus that comes with Half-Orc. I'd still use Unseelie Fey if possible with the Winter aspect so adjacent opponents take a penalty to saves equal to your Cha bonus.

[Azoth]

The samurai was a joke as the class is know to be terrible.

lesser Aasimar only lose their outsider type not their SLA or resistances.

The reason for lesser aasimar is to qualify for the feat Magic in the Blood. That feat turns all 1/day racial SLA/PLAs into 3/day. Only certain races qualify and planetouched is one while an outsider is not.

Phrenic has all its PLAs fully augmented for free where manifester level=HD. Same for Half Fey.

So if you buy off Phrenic and take the savage progrssion levels for half fey you essentially gain +4LA for +2.

Those two templates combined give you an SLA for any situation with their DCs based on Cha IIRC. Half Fey covers social situations very well and Phrenic has mostly combat with some utility.


I forgot about Unseelie Fey being Always evil, but that is eh.

[Red Fel]

Anything 3.0 is officially still valid for use in 3.5 as-is, though certain specific portions may need updated (Magic Aura and Undetectable Aura were combined into one spell).

Great! Sounds like Magic Blooded will definitely work, then!


You can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) a +2 LA easy enough, spending 7,000 xp at your 6th character level/ECL 8 and 9,000 xp at your 9th character level/ECL 10. It's even better if you can gradually gain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) it, get the first point before your first class level, buy it off for 3,000 xp at your 3rd character level/ECL 4, gain the second point of LA with your next level, after three more character levels buy it off for 6,000 xp at your 6th character level/ECL 7. Pick up Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and you'll get a 10% bonus on all current and future xp, including that xp you spend to buy off a level adjustment, so you'll be able to catch up that much faster. I'd go Half-Fey (Fiend Folio) over Phrenic, you get the same Cha boost, plus wings and tricky/versatile spell-like abilities.

Buying off over time is something I hadn't really considered; good point! And I do like the wings, and SLAs instead of PP make me feel less like I'm wasting something.

Item familiars worry me - the idea of free XP has always felt a little cheap to me. Then again, this is a build suffering an XP penalty from buyoff, so I suppose it evens out.


A high Cha score is perfect for a Fear build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), something like Bard 8/ Dread Witch 1/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4, using Inspire Awe (DM), Healing Hymn (CC), and Spellbreaker Song (CM) for Bard, plus you can trade your Suggestion song for Haunting Melody (ECS). Use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, especially since a Lesser Aasimar is already a Humanoid instead of Outsider, and you can get the feat Dreadful Wrath (PGtF). I've suggested this type of build before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4), though this one won't get the Inimidate bonus that comes with Half-Orc. I'd still use Unseelie Fey if possible with the Winter aspect so adjacent opponents take a penalty to saves equal to your Cha bonus.

So let me see if I understand the build. The Bard levels get me Bard spells, skills and abilities, and Bardic Music up to Inspire Courage +2. The Dread Witch levels get me the full DW scope, mostly receiving, reflecting and causing lots of fear. Sublime Chord 2 lets me take a move action to increase my CL for my next spell. Nightmare Spinner 1 gets me another fear effect, and immunity to fear, which basically renders moot Dread Witch's Unnatural Will, Absorb Fear and Reflective Fear abilities (since one is on saves to fear, to which she is immune; one gives bonuses while subject to fear, to which she is immune; and one gives you a reflected spell when you save against fear, which you never do because you are immune). And all of these classes promote Bard spellcasting, with the exception of Sublime Chord, which uses Bard spells or Wiz/Sor spells. Am I correct in how I read this build?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that actively causing fear (as opposed to doing so in retaliation) is pushing evil, if not textbook evil, it's a pretty nice build. Good caster progression, not-abysmal BAB, nice selection of synergistic abilities. I could like it. Dark, but not technically evil.

With regard to Dreadful Wrath, I recall it being a Regional feat. Is that problematic? Or do most GMs simply handwave that part away?

Even if we could refluff the Unseelie to be less evil, the problems with Winter's aura are that (1) it affects all creatures in radius, including allies, and (2) the radius is only 5 feet, and it isn't necessarily good for a caster (as this build appears to be shaping up) to be that close to things that generally prioritize squishing casters. Especially given the iron vulnerability. But I think the Half-Fey has a lot of merit, assuming I could stack templates. (A magic blooded half-fey lesser Aasimar? Why not?)


The samurai was a joke as the class is know to be terrible.

Thank goodness; that's what I thought.


lesser Aasimar only lose their outsider type not their SLA or resistances.

Could I get a citation, please?


The reason for lesser aasimar is to qualify for the feat Magic in the Blood. That feat turns all 1/day racial SLA/PLAs into 3/day. Only certain races qualify and planetouched is one while an outsider is not.

Phrenic has all its PLAs fully augmented for free where manifester level=HD. Same for Half Fey.

So if you buy off Phrenic and take the savage progrssion levels for half fey you essentially gain +4LA for +2.

Those two templates combined give you an SLA for any situation with their DCs based on Cha IIRC. Half Fey covers social situations very well and Phrenic has mostly combat with some utility.

Oh, now I see! I was wondering why you recommended MitB. Yeah, those two templates do add some very juicy SLAs/PLAs. I can see why that would be appealing. Thanks!

Although, I think MitB is also a regional feat. Assuming I could take either (and I'm not sure), one would increase SLAs/PLAs, while the other would have that fear effect basically whenever I march into battle. Hmm... Decisions...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So let me see if I understand the build. The Bard levels get me Bard spells, skills and abilities, and Bardic Music up to Inspire Courage +2. The Dread Witch levels get me the full DW scope, mostly receiving, reflecting and causing lots of fear. Sublime Chord 2 lets me take a move action to increase my CL for my next spell. Nightmare Spinner 1 gets me another fear effect, and immunity to fear, which basically renders moot Dread Witch's Unnatural Will, Absorb Fear and Reflective Fear abilities (since one is on saves to fear, to which she is immune; one gives bonuses while subject to fear, to which she is immune; and one gives you a reflected spell when you save against fear, which you never do because you are immune). And all of these classes promote Bard spellcasting, with the exception of Sublime Chord, which uses Bard spells or Wiz/Sor spells. Am I correct in how I read this build?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that actively causing fear (as opposed to doing so in retaliation) is pushing evil, if not textbook evil, it's a pretty nice build. Good caster progression, not-abysmal BAB, nice selection of synergistic abilities. I could like it. Dark, but not technically evil.

With regard to Dreadful Wrath, I recall it being a Regional feat. Is that problematic? Or do most GMs simply handwave that part away?

Even if we could refluff the Unseelie to be less evil, the problems with Winter's aura are that (1) it affects all creatures in radius, including allies, and (2) the radius is only 5 feet, and it isn't necessarily good for a caster (as this build appears to be shaping up) to be that close to things that generally prioritize squishing casters. Especially given the iron vulnerability. But I think the Half-Fey has a lot of merit, assuming I could stack templates. (A magic blooded half-fey lesser Aasimar? Why not?)

That build trades Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe in Dragon Magic, which inspires fear in your opponents instead of courage in your allies. That level build isn't in order, you want to take those first levels of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner as early as you possibly can, then continue taking Bard afterward until you hit 10th level and can qualify for Sublime Chord. After Sublime Chord 2, all of your Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner levels are going to advance your Sublime Chord casting, since it actually gets you 9th level spells.

Fear effects are not inherently evil. In fact an exalted character is one of the best at causing fear in opponents, with feats from BoED like Righteous Wrath and Nymph's Kiss (which provides a bonus to Intimidate checks). The idea of scaring away your opponents instead of hurting them is definitely not evil.

Dreadful Wrath is indeed a regional feat, available to human regions among others. I recommended you use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny page 150, which will give a planetouched race such as Aasimar the Human subtype, thus allowing you to pick a human region and qualify for that feat.

Unseelie Fey is entirely optional, and the Winter aura is mostly to discourage opponents from getting into melee with you, rather than to encourage you to get into melee range. It's more of an insurance policy, so if an opponent does get adjacent to you, your chances of scaring them away are that much better.

[Red Fel]

That build trades Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe in Dragon Magic, which inspires fear in your opponents instead of courage in your allies. That level build isn't in order, you want to take those first levels of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner as early as you possibly can, then continue taking Bard afterward until you hit 10th level and can qualify for Sublime Chord. After Sublime Chord 2, all of your Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner levels are going to advance your Sublime Chord casting, since it actually gets you 9th level spells.

I see. They advance Chord, not Bard. And the fact that Spinner overwrites Witch is just incidental, because of the caster progression.


Fear effects are not inherently evil. In fact an exalted character is one of the best at causing fear in opponents, with feats from BoED like Righteous Wrath and Nymph's Kiss (which provides a bonus to Intimidate checks). The idea of scaring away your opponents instead of hurting them is definitely not evil.

I gotcha. Dark, but not evil. I like it. It's growing on me. Like a carnivorous lichen.

... of fear.


Dreadful Wrath is indeed a regional feat, available to human regions among others. I recommended you use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny page 150, which will give a planetouched race such as Aasimar the Human subtype, thus allowing you to pick a human region and qualify for that feat.

Unseelie Fey is entirely optional, and the Winter aura is mostly to discourage opponents from getting into melee with you, rather than to encourage you to get into melee range. It's more of an insurance policy, so if an opponent does get adjacent to you, your chances of scaring them away are that much better.

Interesting. Yeah, I do like the idea of Dreadful Wrath, it's a mini-draconic Frightful Presence. I can dig it.

And the Unseelie Winter Aura... Makes sense as insurance, I guess. It's a good way for a caster-type to wriggle out of a grapple, certainly. On the other hand, the Summer Aura makes a lot of sense too - Magic Circle Against Everyone the Fey Don't Like has some nice bonuses, not the least of which is the mental protection, which makes a lot of sense for the character concept.

Hmm... So the choice between Unseelie and Half-Fey is the choice between wings with average maneuverability, season power, DR/cold iron, iron vulnerability, a potential sight upgrade, a mix of stat bonuses/penalties, evil, and no level adjustment, or wings with good maneuverability, SLAs, low-light vision, enchantment immunity, mostly bonuses to abilities, and a 2 level adjustment.

If I wanted to get rid of buyoff, Unseelie seems an excellent choice, assuming I could get past the whole evil thing. Would take some fluff. And it's an awful lot of neat stuff for no LA, if you can get past the randomization aspects. But if I were willing to take buyoff, half-fey seems pretty solid, and the enchantment immunity matches character flavor.

It seems from the replies I've heard so far that the focus of a Cha-based build should be caster, or at least bard. I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed. I expected more from the melee enthusiasts.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Focusing all-in on Charisma isn't very useful to most melee types, though if you read that fear handbook I linked you'll find that melee characters get plenty of their own options for generating fear effects. If your ability scores can support a high Str, Dex, Con, and Cha, then go ahead and use a melee build (example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5)).

[Red Fel]

Focusing all-in on Charisma isn't very useful to most melee types, though if you read that fear handbook I linked you'll find that melee characters get plenty of their own options for generating fear effects. If your ability scores can support a high Str, Dex, Con, and Cha, then go ahead and use a melee build (example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5)).

Well, I wasn't planning on going all-in, but certainly focusing on Charisma.

And... wow. You use a lot of fear in your builds, don't you? Yikes.