Your favourite races for fluff? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Sajiri

2013-09-18, 07:28 PM

Last month, I asked what people's favourite classes were, fluff-wise. This time, I'm interested in races.

This is entirely ignoring mechanics and power. It's purely about what races do you think are just plain cool.

Personally, I love just about anything from Bastards and Bloodlines, I really like halfbreeds (particularly the houri and kestrel)

I've also been surprisingly interested in the Aasimar sub-breeds in pathfinder's Blood of Angels recently. I don't normally like aasimar, but this got me into it, particularly the Idyllkin.

DustyBottoms

2013-09-18, 07:40 PM

Dwarves. There is so much fun being a dwarf, and a lot of cool things to roleplay - a deep devotion to religion and superstition, loyalty to family and clan, and of course a love of beer.

Or, you could break the traditional mold and just be a hearty adventurer of the mountains. The possibilities for different dwarf characters make them the most fun to me.

Snowbluff

2013-09-18, 07:41 PM

Changelings are pretty fluffy. Your life is an identity crisis!

karkus

2013-09-18, 07:42 PM

Definitely Changeling. Humans are almost definitely better, though, with a feat and skills, but these guys have at-will Disguise Self and are ~1/128th Dopplegangers.

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1353/56/1353560563550.jpg
This was the original image, I believe, and it has been criticized multiple times for its sub-par art. A recolor was done, changing the grays to white and the browns to black, but I unfortunately could not find it.
This is almost pure fluff because anybody can get a continuous, no-space wondrous item which is actually more useful (Changelings can't alter the appearance of their clothes) for just 4,000 gps.

Nettlekid

2013-09-18, 07:51 PM

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARFORGED. THEY'RE ROBOTS. ROBOT PEOPLE. I mean, that's just awesome. A race built by mortals and not gods, designed for war. The whole "do they even have a soul" thing is great. But I also love Changelings, gotta say. The variance in personality based on form and personal outlook is pretty fantastic to work with. I've played two starkly different Changelings, one of whom was a sneak and information broker who used his racial ability as a means to an end, and one was a psychotic Sorcerer with no sense of self who would become someone's apprentice and then murder them and take their place. That was a fun character.

Elan's creation story is absolutely awesome, and great for making a backstory of an old and wizened character given new life as an Elan. I wish Killoren had more fluff, because ageless catlike plant-people is a great image, but there's just not too much there.

And finally, I haven't had the chance to play one, but the Vasharan from BoVD are kind of interesting. They were the first creatures the gods made before humans, proved violent and deicidal, and were destroyed. But a demon saved them and nurtured them. What I love is that they're so evil, they would never take anyone hostage. They cannot comprehend the idea that someone would willingly risk themselves for the sake of another, so they don't even bother trying something like that.

ArcturusV

2013-09-18, 07:52 PM

Hmm. I like the Vasharans. I don't usually go for the "Evil Opposites" but something about them just always was neat to me. First born, rejected by the gods, revived by demons. Focused on destroying those who made them.

Spirit Folk are probably the next. Nothing overt about them. Humans with a touch of the spirit world in them. Kinda what I always thought Genasi/Planetouched should have been liked. Revered by their societies yet not really a part of it. Fun stuff.

karkus

2013-09-18, 07:53 PM

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARFORGED
Get out.

Changelings
...Just kidding. You can stay.

Vasharan
This guy gets it. :smallcool: I've never really been a fan of Warforged...

Maginomicon

2013-09-18, 07:56 PM

Warforged are pretty cool, but I'd have to go with either Elan (humans empowered by the quori that's been imprisoned in their bodies), Illumians (magically-engineered superhumans), or Synad (there are voices in my HEAAAAAAD!!!)

Snowbluff

2013-09-18, 07:57 PM

-1 for warforged. They are usually the worst depicted characters at about every table I've played. "Imma robutt" only goes so far.

Tieflings are pretty sweet, as are Elan.

ben-zayb

2013-09-18, 08:27 PM

Hmm. I like the Vasharans. I don't usually go for the "Evil Opposites" but something about them just always was neat to me. First born, rejected by the gods, revived by demons. Focused on destroying those who made them.

In the same vein, I like the Hellbred. Seriously, the name of the race alone screams "Roleplay!" If being a repentant soul of the damned isn't enough of a hook, I dunno what is. :smalltongue:

Also, +1 to Changelings. I just love that race, for sheer versatility of possible RP alone. (probably 10% of all my submitted character applications in PbP has Changeling as a race)

Invader

2013-09-18, 08:29 PM

Minotaurs, but I get lost in mazes quite a bit...

Goodpizza

2013-09-18, 08:36 PM

I like Warforged when they're roleplayed properly (An intelligent, articulate living construct, not "Beep boop I'm a robot"), but for fluffiness I have to go for the Changeling. I actually had a player play as one but not tell any of the others, so until one of them finally got a true seeing item they thought he was a human.

XenoGeno

2013-09-18, 08:37 PM

I LOVE Warforged, but not necessarily for the default fluff (honestly, my group has never used a default setting, so I really don't know much Eberron fluff in general). However, I love specific class combinations with them like Totemist or Jade Phoenix Mage, among others. There's a lot to toy around with RP-wise, especially with the latter. Man, if I ever get to play a game that starts at 1 and goes to a high level, that's going to be my character.

EDIT: In general though, I find basically every race to have fascinating fluff. Just looking at the most basic descriptions of any given race or sub-race can usually give me at least two or three ideas for adventure hooks.

Red Fel

2013-09-18, 08:44 PM

I like warforged in concept, but I agree that the execution varies. It's one thing if you turn your character into a Vulcan - that's just a bit too two-dimensional for my tastes. But it's another if you play them as a perfectly ordinary person, who periodically has a funny moment. (For instance, someone says, "This roast is delicious! Try some!" "I was not built with a sense of taste." "That explains your wardrobe." "I was, however, built to take offense." That amuses me.)

One race I really enjoy is the Blue, the Goblin racial variant. I love the idea of a goblin with extra power, who is exceptionally paranoid because his entire village alternates between revering him and wanting him dead. It can make for a crazy-fun crazy character.

Are templates allowed in here? Because I'd like to nominate Dragonborn. And no, not just because, "Hey, we can slap 'dragon' on anything now." I like Dragonborn because of the symbolism - the idea that any person, from any walk of life, can receive divine inspiration to become not only a better person, but an entirely new creature. That's just really cool to me.

Of course, if templates aren't invited, I'll just pick up my Dragonborn and go home.

ericp65

2013-09-18, 08:45 PM

I love Elves easily ten times as much as I care for any other race *L* Kalashtar look pretty cool, too, but I have yet to write one up as a character. I like the variety of the Faerunian Elven subraces, and the EA d20 Middle-Earth Elves.

ArcturusV

2013-09-18, 08:47 PM

Well if you're going to bring in Vulcan style, I also like the, Jim: Why Spock... how positively human of you! Spock: I see no need to insult me., type moments.

But yeah, I'm not digging the warforged stuff. Just my experience (Again, don't play Eberron) everyone who has asked for it either wanted it for strictly mechanical reasons... or they wanted to play a very one dimensional joke character about being a Robot.

Sajiri

2013-09-18, 08:49 PM

Seclora

2013-09-18, 08:52 PM

I'm partial to Hobgoblins.
They're not optimal by any means I know of, but it's like all the fun of Dwarven militarism without the good, religion, or drinking.
Or beard jokes..it's nice to get away from the beard jokes now and then.

I also like Dwarves, for the Beer and Beard jokes.

Nettlekid

2013-09-18, 08:58 PM

The very first character I ever played was a Warforged, and I was very happy with him. He was a Fighter (later I was allowed to rebuild as a Crusader since it fit the character better and I understood the builds more) who had been forged for war, and once the war was over he had little purpose. He had no capacity to imagine that there was a purpose beyond doing what you're told. To release him from effective slavery (on behalf of Warforged Rights Activists) his master told him to cut wood from the tree that sprouts from an acorn that the master placed on solid rock. After a year of waiting, this Warforged ventured into the forest in an uncharacteristically problem-solving mindset, and began to chop down a tree, much to the anger of a local Druid. The Druid then took pity on the closed mind of the Warforged, and taught him philosophy and how to question the world around him. This took the better part of a century, and following the Druid's death this Warforged began to crusade to encourage mindless masses to think for themselves.

So I played up in equal portions the naive style of "What is this human thing you are doing?" and "What is your motive in this action?" as well as having a terrible Bluff and being very ostentatious in my actions, much to the IC chagrin of my friend who's super into sneaking around as a Rogue. I can personally vouch that the alien mentality of a creature who doesn't require human needs can make for a very entertaining character indeed.

unseenmage

2013-09-18, 09:02 PM

Warforged. First race I ever got genuinely excited about.
I like their fluff, a lot actually. Their mechanics not so much.

Don't get me wrong, they nailed the partial construct thing mechanically, it's that wall of text that turns me off playing them most times.

Other than that I like playing Goblins and Kobolds. Monsters that are people too are just fun for me.

Snowbluff

2013-09-18, 09:03 PM

That can be very funny at times.

*rogue sneaking*

"I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF THIS EXCERCISE."

*Rogue facepalms and takes a bunch of crossbow bolts to the chest*

almightycoma

2013-09-18, 09:04 PM

1 neanderthals
2 illumians
3 mind flayers
4 buoymen

gurgleflep

2013-09-18, 09:05 PM

I've got to go with my usual answer: mind flayer and the like. Yaggol (Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn) in specific. They're barbarians with psionic capabilities! :smallbiggrin:

Nettlekid

2013-09-18, 09:07 PM

That can be very funny at times.

*rogue sneaking*

"I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF THIS EXCERCISE."

*Rogue facepalms and takes a bunch of crossbow bolts to the chest*

Bingo, exactly. Made all the better because I was a total tank (almost literally), especially after I rebuilt to Crusader and made good use of Stone Power and the delayed damage pool to negate a whole lot of damage. So I was pretty much fine with just sitting there taking punishment, but he was very squishy.

Chained Birds

2013-09-18, 09:19 PM

I have to go with Elans as well.

I've always loved the idea of playing a creature that has existed for centuries and knows he will never die through aging. Something somber, but something they can never really express due to their poor charisma and inability to relate to others.
They are flesh, but they never have to eat, and can deflect the dangerous of the world as though their bodies where made of steel.
There is also how they resemble other races due to their pasts, but can never truly be a part of those societies.

It is also cool playing an Elan with high Knowledge checks and being able to say stuff like "Ah, these are the Royal Lizard Brigade. I remember 700 years ago when these guys first started as a rogue band of half-dragons striving for independence. Seems they have done quite a lot in such a short period of time."

(Un)Inspired

2013-09-18, 09:43 PM

I've always had a soft spot for the empty vessels. Innate psionic powers and bred to rule with demon and elf blood.

Their counterparts the kalashtar are pretty cool too but lack the inspired's style

Fax Celestis

2013-09-18, 09:48 PM

I am a huge fan of d'hin'ni and warghests.

Toliudar

2013-09-18, 10:04 PM

I am that rarest of person: one who finds kender, gully dwarves and Krynn gnomes charming. In the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved setting, I especially like the giants, sibbecai and mojh.

Helcack

2013-09-18, 10:15 PM

Exiled Modron are my favourite. They were once cogs in the wheel of law, now forced into exile from their original body and mind(they are given amnesia and their soul is ejected from their body then put into a new one.) for their "malfunction." It is wonderful for the DM because it allows the DM to work with the player on a backstory, working it in as the campaign moves forward; As well as allowing the player to truly explore a world completely alien with an adult level brain(Processor?).

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-18, 10:36 PM

Really? No one said uldra? Aww. They have some great fluff, and I really like the tie in with Hleid, Iborighu, and Rimefire Witches. Playable fey are cool, and I'll probably implement some kind of variant to nix that uncool LA. They are worth checking out for anyone that likes short nature types (favored class: druid!...though favored classes are largely ignored on the boards...:smallfrown:)

I'll also nominate Athasian variants on the standard races (and forgetting the terrible 3.5 adaptations). My special favorite is Athasian halflings. Paranoid, flesh-eating halflings? Oh my, YES PLS. Athasian elves are also pretty cool. The awesome artwork of 2e Dark Sun setting really got me liking that stuff.

Finally, a shout out to kender and tinker gnomes. Much maligned, kender are an iconic 2e race, and were an awesome part of the Dragonlance novels of yesteryear. Tinker gnomes were also quite cool, and spawned many of the most interesting/hilarious bits of 2e (miniature giant space hamsters, anyone?).

ArcturusV

2013-09-18, 10:45 PM

Only because I forgot about the Uldra. I do love them too. :smallbiggrin:

Palanan

2013-09-18, 10:58 PM

I really like elves. What can I say? I read Lord of the Rings in fourth grade and never looked back.

Also, I get a real kick out of warforged, because they can embody almost any attitude towards their creators, from naive curiosity to iron-cold hate. In one campaign I had a team of warforged as running antagonists for the PCs, and I had a ton of fun playing the extrovert warforged disguised as a swashbuckling ladies' man.

(He introduced himself as "Othar Tryggvassen, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!!" :smallbiggrin:)

And to bring in Pathfinder, I haven't read very much from the PF sourcebooks, but the personality of the sylphs seemed interesting...well-written and nicely thought out.

.

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-09-18, 11:03 PM

I like playing tieflings (PF variant, actual descendant, not that pact crap). Just going off stereotypes, you get a wierd character that is automatically paranoid and on-edge, while still definitely in-human. They also have so many ways to go: embracing their heritage, saying 'screw you' to ALL outsiders, or becoming paragons of goodly good.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-18, 11:05 PM

I really like elves. What can I say? I read Lord of the Rings in fourth grade and never looked back.

And to bring in Pathfinder, I haven't read very much from the PF sourcebooks, but the personality of the sylphs seemed interesting...well-written and nicely thought out.

.

Also a huge LotR fan. Read while I had chicken pox. Good times. I have gone back many times since, and I found The Silmarillion to be a huge inspiration for my personal world-building. Tolkien was a rare genius, especially considering the period in which he was working (a time during which the old ways of ages past were being discarded in favor of modernism...his work strongly reaches into the mythic past).

Sylphs? Playable sylphs? Hmm, they were/are a monster, one of my favorite humanoid-formed elementals from back in 2e, but I'd like to see an adaptation for use as a playable race. Them and pech...I think that was how it was spelled, were always pretty cool in my mind. Earth and air. Very classic.

Mcdt2

2013-09-18, 11:29 PM

Personally, I like just taking a race and playing it against type. Jolly kobold bards. Murderous gnome assassins (not whisper gnomes, of course. Should play one as bard sometime.) Claustrophobic dwarf maybe?

I almost never actually get a chance to play, sadly. One of the few ideas I've made and actually gotten a chance to play was a pair of characters. One, a peaceful orcish druid named Krusk Irontooth, who swore to never a living creatures except to defend himself and others, and then only if he could not stop them otherwise. The other, his apprentice, Shaper, a warforged wildshape ranger who tried his hardest to understand the world around him (He was created only 4 years prior to campaign start, and spent most of that time enslaved by the duergar who made him.)

I've always really liked goblins, too. No big story with that, they're just charming, in a murderous kind of way.

Palanan

2013-09-18, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Also a huge LotR fan. Read while I had chicken pox. Good times. I have gone back many times since, and I found The Silmarillion to be a huge inspiration for my personal world-building. Tolkien was a rare genius....

Tolkien was amazing, indeed. Just yesterday I was listening to an old recording of his own reading of The Hobbit, the part introducing Gollum. His storytelling voice is simply fantastic.

When I was visiting Oxford, a friend took me to the very pub where Tolkien would get together with C.S. Lewis and the other Inklings. I'm ordinarily not a pub person, but I'm really glad I had the chance to be there.

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Sylphs? Playable sylphs? Hmm, they were/are a monster, one of my favorite humanoid-formed elementals from back in 2e, but I'd like to see an adaptation for use as a playable race.

Here's the Pathfinder sylph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-sylph), designed as a player race. I'm still learning my way around Pathfinder, so there may be other versions, but this looks like what I came across in the Advanced Race Guide.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-18, 11:55 PM

Othar Tryggvassen, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!!

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s600/Pimpforged/PimpforgedAvatar-2_zps00861573.jpg

Nettlekid

2013-09-19, 12:01 AM

I Have Been Advised That The Acquisition Of Multiple Wenches Is The Pinnacle Of The Daring Adventurer. However, No One Will Tell Me What I Am Supposed To Do After I Acquire Them.

Snowbluff

2013-09-19, 12:04 AM

Eh, he's got nothin' on pimp Krusk!

gurgleflep

2013-09-19, 12:09 AM

*snip*

Sylphs? Playable sylphs? Hmm, they were/are a monster, one of my favorite humanoid-formed elementals from back in 2e, but I'd like to see an adaptation for use as a playable race. Them and pech...I think that was how it was spelled, were always pretty cool in my mind. Earth and air. Very classic.

Pech can be found in the Tome of Horrors, which I believe is made by Necromancer Games.

otakumick

2013-09-19, 12:25 AM

I'll have to second(seventy fourth? [slight exaggeration] people seem to like them) Elans. However, probably my favorite race fluff wise is Kobolds... I love the story of how their god became a god, I love the links to dragons... I love their feud with gnomes... they are just wonderful little things... Speaking of dragons, Tome Dragons are my favorite fluffwise when it comes to dragons... I would love to play as one... they are after all, the nerdiest dragons.

JaronK

2013-09-19, 01:10 AM

Kobolds and Dwarves. It's so much fun to play up the stereotypes with them!

JaronK

Lactantius

2013-09-19, 01:26 AM

Tolkienesque Elves. I just like their mystic, apart-from-this-world flavor, the long lifetime which makes aspects like time, love and death so fascinating.
Needless to say that these elves tend to good alignment.

Crake

2013-09-19, 01:35 AM

Succubi. Nothing says fun like playing an evil erotic temptress who wants to see nothing but your untimely demise so she can steal your soul away to the abyss to be her plaything (until she gets bored and tosses you into a soulgrinder).

juicycaboose

2013-09-19, 01:39 AM

Other than ones that people have already mentioned (warforged esp.) I've always loved half-elves as a race, ever since reading the dragonlance novels when i was younger I've always loved half-elves. Pity they suck mechanically :(

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-19, 01:40 AM

Tieflings (Big surprise!), and another +1 for Hellbred. I just really like planar stuff. I also like the Volodni in Forgotten Realms, along with the Hagspawn.

I start to wonder if my tastes in races is due to a preference of not being peachy-brownish.

Psyren

2013-09-19, 01:47 AM

Blues, absolutely. There are times when I want a race that is guaranteed to be underestimated, and these guys are it.

kender

What in god's name is wrong with you :smalleek:

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-19, 01:49 AM

I assume he's just more amiable when playing Kender and plays it more like Tasslehoff was in the books (He was popular, right? Been a while) rather then Stealy McGrabbypants of Annoyingville.

Milo v3

2013-09-19, 02:59 AM

I Have Been Advised That The Acquisition Of Multiple Wenches Is The Pinnacle Of The Daring Adventurer. However, No One Will Tell Me What I Am Supposed To Do After I Acquire Them.

Firstly, can I sig this :smalltongue:
Secondly, I'm seriously surprised no-one's said Dvati. Being able to be two characters with a single mind and soul is so cool.
Thirdly, +1 to Hellbred.

rainstorm

2013-09-19, 08:01 AM

Elves have always been my favorite race to play, but after playing Planescape: Torment, I began to love the Githzerai (if you haven't played Planescape: Torment, you should; it's wonderful). It fascinates me how their race was enslaved by the Mind Flayers and how they managed to rebel. It's nice to see that they have a cousin race as well and how similar, yet how they differ from the Githyanki.

Zombulian

2013-09-19, 08:24 AM

-1 for warforged. They are usually the worst depicted characters at about every table I've played. "Imma robutt" only goes so far.

Tieflings are pretty sweet, as are Elan.

Hey whoa, I did some cool stuff as my Warforged Totemist. But I see what you mean.

A favorite of mine is the Hadozee. I mean, they're FLYING SQUIRREL MONKEY PEOPLE! Plus they're pirates! Aahhh!

Darfellan are interesting too, but I was never great with the fluff for them.

Saurian Shifter was the race of probably the most backstory intensive character I ever played. So there's that.

Psyren

2013-09-19, 08:38 AM

I assume he's just more amiable when playing Kender and plays it more like Tasslehoff was in the books (He was popular, right? Been a while) rather then Stealy McGrabbypants of Annoyingville.

Tasslehoff Suefoot? Of course he barely had time to steal anything, he was too busy stealing the spotlight :smallsigh: Why yes, I'll go save all the main characters single-handedly, do it all the time. What do you mean I have to get married, better make a whole book about my journey home... oh I met my uncle and my fiancé, let's all outsmart Tiamat together. Silly goddess, thinking she can beat Kender! Whoops, I went back in time, how zany! Oh, only Kender can change history, because reasons? I'll get right on that! Hey, I impressed Paladine! We go way back, he and I. Chaos getting uppity? I'll just stab it, shall I? Wow, that actually worked!

Zanfire

2013-09-19, 09:01 AM

Glad to see I'm not the first person to say Dvati! I absolutely love their other worldly background and the twined soul aspects. They also just look really cool too!

Palanan

2013-09-19, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
*thematically appropriate artwork*

That's almost exactly the image I had in mind, although my Othar had a hat of disguise to give him the look of a cheerful, slightly florid swashbuckler with blond sideburns. He was constantly tugging on the hat to be sure it was there--a half-conscious tic that immediately rang alarm bells for the more perceptive PCs in the party.

Originally Posted by Zombulian
A favorite of mine is the Hadozee. I mean, they're FLYING SQUIRREL MONKEY PEOPLE!

More like gliding great apes, I'd say. Smallish ones, but definitely brachiators. It's why they're great in the masts and rigging.

Originally Posted by Lactantius
Tolkienesque Elves. I just like their mystic, apart-from-this-world flavor, the long lifetime which makes aspects like time, love and death so fascinating.

This exactly, yes.

One thing I took a while to get used to, and never really liked, is how integrated elves seem to be in baseline 3.5 societies. Most of my 3.5 experience has been in the Forgotten Realms, and the Faerûn subraces are generally common and casually encountered in cities, towns, communities, what have you, just another element to the cosmopolitan scene.

To me, this leaches away much of their mystique, and renders them more "eh" than ethereal. For me, there should be something...distant to elves, some chasm of emotion and experience between them and other peoples. The elven-folk should be familiar--to a degree; and yet disconcertingly other as well.

Psyren

2013-09-19, 09:26 AM

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s600/Pimpforged/PimpforgedAvatar-2_zps00861573.jpg

Prime Directive: Disregard Females, Acquire Currency

unseenmage

2013-09-19, 09:34 AM

Prime Directive: Disregard Females, Acquire Currency

Resistance is futile. They WILL be appropriated.

oldkingkoal

2013-09-19, 10:10 AM

For me, Kobolds. All the way. I find the fluff behind them in the races of the dragon book to be extremely endearing. A race older than the elves more industrious than the dwarves, yet they get none of the respect. Kinda tragic actually.

Yogibear41

2013-09-19, 10:13 AM

Not necessarily my favorite but I see no one has said them so, Killoren. IMO they do the whole "natures" warrior theme better than the elves. Druid/Ranger/Barbarian types are my favorite thing to play, yet elves are among my least favorite races. I blame current pop-culture for destroying the images of this race in my eyes.

Also what are warghests? some sort of worg barghest?

ericp65

2013-09-19, 10:14 AM

One thing I took a while to get used to, and never really liked, is how integrated elves seem to be in baseline 3.5 societies. Most of my 3.5 experience has been in the Forgotten Realms, and the Faerûn subraces are generally common and casually encountered in cities, towns, communities, what have you, just another element to the cosmopolitan scene.

To me, this leaches away much of their mystique, and renders them more "eh" than ethereal. For me, there should be something...distant to elves, some chasm of emotion and experience between them and other peoples. The elven-folk should be familiar--to a degree; and yet disconcertingly other as well.

That commentary suggests to me that, in your games, Elves have not been depicted as closely to their published "fluff" as they perhaps should have been. In the Realms, Moon Elves are the most common adventuring types; Sun Elves have an ethnocentric issue; Copper Elves are more guarded and elusive, and are viewed by other Elves as boisterous and hedonistic; Green Elves are xenophobic (if memory serves). These aspects alone can be played up to exemplify the racial personality differences, as well as to guide DMs in populating various areas in their campaigns. Between Races of the Wild and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, there's a wealth of information about Elven psychology, worldview, artistic and craft interests, and even typical clothing styles that can also serve as great ways to set each subrace apart. Rich and complex textures and flavors among the Elves, for sure!

I'll add that the same can be said of Hin (Halflings) of the Realms. I like their variety, too :smallsmile:

ahenobarbi

2013-09-19, 10:41 AM

Warforged (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiRoleModel) (beware of the TVTropes link).

Zombulian

2013-09-19, 11:55 AM

More like gliding great apes, I'd say. Smallish ones, but definitely brachiators. It's why they're great in the masts and rigging.

Well it may have been hard to comprehend the way I wrote it. I meant that they glided, because I was making them akin to flying squirrels, which glide. Considering all the different art samples for the Hadozee throughout the book, I don't think it's fair to call them great apes necessarily, as the one depicted in the beginning of the races chapter looks more like a baboon, and the one on the races page itself looks like a howler monkey. Though the monster page for them looks like an orangutan.

Also what are warghests? some sort of worg barghest?

Barghest and Goblin hybrid.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-09-19, 12:46 PM

Tough to pick just one...

+ Illumians: I really enjoy how they "wage war," it's spy-tastic! The floating sigils are cool, too.

+ Changelings: Just so many interesting implications of not having a particular gender or racial identity, and (at least when I play them) going to great lengths to hide the fact you're a changeling out of fear of persecution/judgmental attitudes. Especially when a group of genocidal xenophobic d-bags are considered the "primary order of good and righteousness" in the campaign setting.

+ Vasharan: By far the best creation/origin story. I've always wanted to play in a (evil, obviously) party of them seeking to commit deicide on the whole pantheon.

+ Goliaths: I like their society and how they punish people by shunning/exiling them. Common punishment in RL medieval times, but hardly shows up in fantasy.

And if we're allowed to give negative points, I'd also like to give one to Warforged. They sound cool for a few minutes, then it gets old. Then you play alongside Warforged characters and the indifference grows to hate.

Also -1 for dwarves. I play them often because they're one of the strongest races mechanically. But I have to do a heck of a lot of playing against type just to tolerate my PC. I still don't understand why, when the elves are being racist and superior they're considered jerks, but when dwarves do it (by being greedy, by holding centuries old grudges against all members of a race past the point where they even recall WHY they hate them, laughing at how feeble or frail the other races are or how they can't hold their liquor / make good liquor) ...it's considered funny and adorable.

unseenmage

2013-09-19, 12:56 PM

Tough to pick just one...

+ Illumians: I really enjoy how they "wage war," it's spy-tastic! The floating sigils are cool, too.

Oh yeah! I forgot about Illumians. Their fluff is fantastic.

Shining Wrath

2013-09-19, 01:18 PM

Currently playing a Warforged. He's got ... issues ... from having been enslaved and takes a hard line towards anyone who enslaves others (CG). He views mindless undead as slavery of a sort and therefore reacts really, really kindly to the Emerald Claw / Blood of Vol and that sort (NOT).

So, they can definitely go beyond the "I'm a Robot" simplistic roleplaying. I might try a Terminator take if I ever played an evil WF: "I have been appointed to destroy you. Plea to your god, fleshy".

For fluff, I like Elves - the Eladrin flavor, not the wood elves flavor. The ancient fey, in the world but apart from it, mourning the decay of what they love and welcoming each new nightfall.

Snowbluff

2013-09-19, 01:26 PM

Currently playing a Warforged. He's got ... issues ... from having been enslaved and takes a hard line towards anyone who enslaves others (CG). He views mindless undead as slavery of a sort and therefore reacts really, really kindly to the Emerald Claw / Blood of Vol and that sort (NOT).

So, they can definitely go beyond the "I'm a Robot" simplistic roleplaying.

Apparently they enter full-idiot mode. :smalltongue:

I might try a Terminator take if I ever played an evil WF: "I have been appointed to destroy you. Plea to your god, fleshy".
The irony. Not only do warforged worship warforged-specific gods, they are only marginally tougher than ''fleshies.''

StreamOfTheSky

2013-09-19, 01:28 PM

For fluff, I like Elves - the Eladrin flavor, not the wood elves flavor. The ancient fey, in the world but apart from it, mourning the decay of what they love and welcoming each new nightfall.

Hmm, I'm the opposite. I really like the wood elf flavor, though it's hardly covered in 3E. I like Elves mainly because of the Warhammer Wood Elves and carrying over that fluff even if it's not in the books. Never really cared about the High Elf variety, other than for being some sort of genius "high tech" society, those are always interesting. Especially if it's like the Wingly race from Legend of Dragoon (video game) with teleporters between different parts of town, floating cities, etc...

unseenmage

2013-09-19, 01:29 PM

He views mindless undead as slavery of a sort and therefore reacts really, really kindly to the Emerald Claw / Blood of Vol and that sort (NOT).

I played a Skeleton Rogue who felt this way about Undead control but then he was an undead who'd been controlled so I felt it appropriate that he not only fear Necromancer (esp Liches) but that other Intelligent Undead serving masters really p***ed him off.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 01:42 PM

My favorite races for fluff...man there are way to many to choose from. One that immediately comes to mind is the dolgaunts from Eberron. Their backround isn't that interesting but they're pretty awesome without it. Writhing cilia, fluid sucking tentacles, eyeless holes...what more could you want?

Tough to pick just one...

+ Illumians: I really enjoy how they "wage war," it's spy-tastic! The floating sigils are cool, too.

+ Changelings: Just so many interesting implications of not having a particular gender or racial identity, and (at least when I play them) going to great lengths to hide the fact you're a changeling out of fear of persecution/judgmental attitudes. Especially when a group of genocidal xenophobic d-bags are considered the "primary order of good and righteousness" in the campaign setting.

+ Vasharan: By far the best creation/origin story. I've always wanted to play in a (evil, obviously) party of them seeking to commit deicide on the whole pantheon.

+ Goliaths: I like their society and how they punish people by shunning/exiling them. Common punishment in RL medieval times, but hardly shows up in fantasy.

And if we're allowed to give negative points, I'd also like to give one to Warforged. They sound cool for a few minutes, then it gets old. Then you play alongside Warforged characters and the indifference grows to hate.

Hey man, don't be hatin on the Church of the Silver Flame:

In my experience, the majority of players, DMs, and even Eberron writers focus on the negative side of the Silver Flame. Every Silver Flame priest is either a corrupt fraud or a zealous maniac. The people of Thrane are intolerant fanatics. I've seen multiple shifter PCs based around the idea of wanting to kill modern worshippers of the Silver Flame based on the events of the lycanthropic purge.

It's easy to see reasons for this. When you're telling a story and you want a villain, you want Cardinal Richelieu, not Mother Teresa. But people should be aware that the villains and zealots stand out precisely because they ARE the exceptions - that the CotSF is not the violent, intolerant faith many believe it to be. Now, obviously all DMs are welcome to do whatever they wish with the world. If you want a vile and misguided church of zealots, that's your business. But the original goal of the church was to create a complex situation, not a one-sided charicature; it's supposed to be an institution that is, on the balance, a force for light - but one that, due to the actions of zealots and misguided followers, has also been a source of darkness. I just want to do a quick skim over some of the early source material (since along the way, many authors get caught up in the zealotry) and highlight the original direction.

Let's start with the ECS. On page 67, we get the core mission of the Church: "The Church of the Silver Flame is dedicated to protecting the common people from supernatural evil." This initial description says nothing about corruption or zealotry, because these things are not supposed to be unique to the Church of the Silver Flame. EVERY religion in Eberron has corrupt priests and zealots; the biggest offender on this count is the Blood of Vol, the majority of whose high priests are completely misleading their faithful followers. The issue is that the Church of the Silver Flame is not immune to these troubles; despite being dedicated to a noble cause, it is vulnerable to the failings of those who serve it - and those people may fall prey to greed or zealotry. But that's not somehow the core of the faith; it is the failing of those who stray from its teachings.

This is echoed on page 131, under Life in Khorvaire: "Rumors tell of graft and corruption even within the Church of the Silver Flame, the traditional bastion of law and order." This is considered to be a SURPRISE - not something taken for granted. By and large, the church IS seen as an honest and altruistic institution.

Next let's go to page 207, speaking of the Keeper of the Silver Flame and the nation of Thrane. "Jaela believes that, with the exception of wiping out true evil, war is a futile effort. The Silver Flame doesn't call for war; indeed, she believes that the Flame is saddened by the conflict that has pitted brother against brother." The problem is that many of the other members of the theocracy believe otherwise - but Jaela is the vessel of the Flame. Her thoughts represent the true path of the Flame; the problem again is the human failing of those who seek war. It's not the intention of the religion; in fact, it's against the principles of the faith. The problem is that people don't always live up to those ideals.

With that said, pages 207-208 continue to emphasize that the majority of the faithful hold to the true path. "Most (missionaries) preach a tolerant version of the faith (that accepts other religions)." "The Church of the Silver Flame is of two minds when it comes to doctrine and practices: the dominant, more or less tolerant side, embodied by the Keeper of the Flame... and the small but vocal minority who... take every pronouncement to its literal and extremely intolerant conclusions. On one hand, the church has developed into one of the strongest pillars of lawful good virtues in the world. On the other, its fanatical side has inspired... some of the worst atrocities ever committed in the name of a lawful good deity."

That intolerant, fanatical side is there. Just as you can find intolerant, fanatical followers of the Sovereign Host, the Blood of Vol (hello, Emerald Claw!), and any other religion; it's human nature. The Church of the Silver Flame is a faith that strives to do good, and which more often than not DOES do good - but which has also produced evil, when misguided or self-centered followers have strayed from its path.

This is echoed in the Silver Flame dragonshard article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a). "The vast majority of the members of the church are not warriors... they seek to battle evil by nuturing good. A Thrane farmer who is faithful to the Flame does not fight demons. But he seeks to live his life by the ideals of the flame: to help those in need, to encourage virtuous behavior, and to be a force of light in the world. Gradations of evil exist, and while no mercy can be granted to the demon, hope remains that the greedy merchant or the arrogant king may follow a different path if shown how. The minister -- and the paladin -- leads by example and demonstrates to others the errors of their ways."

But what about the purge of lycanthropes, and the innocents who suffered in this struggle? Again, this is supposed to be an example of the moral challenges faced in Eberron - a good action that unfortunately had evil consequences. As described in the Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a), this was a time when the power of lycanthropy was growing and spreading, when even good lycanthropes were becoming bloodthirsty murderers, and when thousands of innocents were being slaughtered. Unchecked, it could have destroyed Galifar. When the Purge first began it was 28 Days Later, not the Salem witch trials. The templars of the Flame were normal humans risking their lives to fight supernatural beasts in the hopes of protecting innocent farmers. The typical soldier was no match for the werewolf; he was putting his life on the defend others. But war is a horror, and in the course of war the best intentions can go astray. And so it happened here. As the tide turned, madness gripped the victors, and especially among the Aundairian converts to the Flame there was a thirst for blood and vengeance. The shifters suffered. Good lycanthropes suffered. It was a terrible tragedy. But it would have been far worse if they'd done nothing at all; the Purge began as an effort to defend innocents being slaughtered, not as a brutal attack on harmless, carefree werewolves.

Again, I understand why people like to focus on the dark side of the church; it makes for better stories than the altruistic, kind, Mother Teresa priests. But the fact of the matter is that as written, the Church is supposed to have MORE Jaela Daerans than Cardinal Krozens. Especially in Thrane, Jaela represents the majority of the church: tolerant, altruistic, dedicated to protecting the innocent from supernatural evil, but combating human evil through noble example and charitable deeds.

The church is flawed. That's the goal of Eberron; there are no perfect forces of good in the world. People should never be able to be certain that the actions of a follower of the Silver Flame will serve the greater good. But the church was never meant to be as bad as many people seem to make it. Overall, it is a force for good, based on noble principles. Unfortunately, just as in our world, there are people who cannot live up to those principles, or who are blinded by their own greed, ambition, or misunderstanding of that underlying philosophy.

At least, that was my intention. From the start, we wanted to show that in Eberron there is no perfect pillar of virtue - but there's still virtue there, not simply blind intolerance and zealotry.

Then you play alongside Warforged characters and the indifference grows to hate

Why?

Shining Wrath

2013-09-19, 02:03 PM

Apparently they enter full-idiot mode. :smalltongue:

The irony. Not only do warforged worship warforged-specific gods, they are only marginally tougher than ''fleshies.''

The canonical Warforged of 3.5 Eberron do not worship warforged specific gods, unless you consider the Lord of Blades to be one such. The EPG shows a Warforged praying before an altar of the Sovereign Host. Most WF are agnostic.

As for "marginally tougher" - +2 to Con and immunity to poison, sleep, asphyxiation, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, disease, and sickened is a very large margin in my book.

unseenmage

2013-09-19, 02:13 PM

The canonical Warforged of 3.5 Eberron do not worship warforged specific gods, unless you consider the Lord of Blades to be one such. The EPG shows a Warforged praying before an altar of the Sovereign Host. Most WF are agnostic.

As for "marginally tougher" - +2 to Con and immunity to poison, sleep, asphyxiation, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, disease, and sickened is a very large margin in my book.

Just means they're situationally tougher than humanoid-like races, just like they're situationally weaker than other Constructs.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 02:18 PM

The canonical Warforged of 3.5 Eberron do not worship warforged specific gods, unless you consider the Lord of Blades to be one such. The EPG shows a Warforged praying before an altar of the Sovereign Host. Most WF are agnostic.

As for "marginally tougher" - +2 to Con and immunity to poison, sleep, asphyxiation, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, disease, and sickened is a very large margin in my book.

Some also follow the Becoming God (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060804b&page=1).

Psyren

2013-09-19, 03:15 PM

The canonical Warforged of 3.5 Eberron do not worship warforged specific gods, unless you consider the Lord of Blades to be one such. The EPG shows a Warforged praying before an altar of the Sovereign Host. Most WF are agnostic.

PC Warforged aren't most warforged though. PC anything are out of the ordinary for their race; that's the whole point of being an adventurer instead of a commoner or expert.

EDIT: blaaa, love that quote, thanks for posting it.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 03:47 PM

PC Warforged aren't most warforged though. PC anything are out of the ordinary for their race; that's the whole point of being an adventurer instead of a commoner or expert.

EDIT: blaaa, love that quote, thanks for posting it.

No problem. I actually have that particular post from where the quote's from bookmarked because I see the "genocidal xenophobic jerks" interpretation pop up a LOT. It's understandable but (IMO) more uninteresting than Bakers thoughts on the subject.

And call me Count :smallsmile:.

Psyren

2013-09-19, 03:50 PM

Sorry about that Count, my eyes tend to skim over sigs.

(There's a thread in Board/Site issues where you can get your name changed IIRC.)

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 04:02 PM

Ooh just thought of another one: Daelkyr Half-Bloods. Having a fleshy, veiny aberrant friend attach to your skin is pretty great. Shame they're so vanilla otherwise :smallfrown:.

Sorry about that Count, my eyes tend to skim over sigs.

(There's a thread in Board/Site issues where you can get your name changed IIRC.)

Nothing to apologize for :smallsmile:.

And naw, I got the nickname because of my "real" one. Plus it has nostalgic value (I used it when I was first starting out on the net.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-09-19, 04:02 PM

ArcturusV

2013-09-19, 04:05 PM

Heh. I always looked at elf type cultures as less the bastion of good... and more a den of Evil. Which made elves more interesting fluff wise to me. Because... most elvish forests aren't, well... Natural. Which is weird for a good race claiming to love nature. They tend to come in two varieties, hosting evil races/demons (e.g.: Myth Drannor, Murkwood, Slaaneshi's birth in 40k, etc) which suggests at their evil practices, or just general acceptance and apathy that they allow such things into their homes.

Or on the other hand, their homelands are genocidal unbalanced gardens of unnatural delights. Most settings will mention things like the enchanting music which dulls the minds of those who cross into it, for example. But even beyond that? The elvish forests are odd places. Usually only one type of tree, and often not an "Old Growth" variety that should have arisen to dominance over millenia of protection under nature lovers. The floor is suspiciously absent of undergrowth that a natural forest would have. There is a distinct lack of predators in the forest, other than the Elves themselves, an unnatural ecosystem with an abundance of prey and no predators (As the Elves are often also depicted as Vegans).

It leaves a mystery in my mind. Surely something is "not right". Clearly they have just depopulated into extinction nearly every animal they do not care for. Wolves, hunting cats, bears, weasels, wolverines, etc, etc, etc. As well as larger prey animals as you rarely see something like deer, goats, etc. But the place hasn't been nearly deforested by rampaging bunny hordes and voracious songbirds... so that suggests some sort of control being put on them, annual culling, maybe magical enslavement of these beasts to control them. The lack of undergrowth and old growth tells us that they take similar means to their beloved "nature", destroying that which they find unappealing, merely because it is unappealing to their eye, and lavishing their attentions and magics on their perfectly sculpted garden.

They start to move away from "Good aligned hippies" when you start thinking about this. It leads closer to narcissism (With their particular Elvish Superiority), hedonism, genocide, often xenophobia as well. No wonder Elvish homelands keep falling into evil. They have all the makings of an evil race, short of a "kill on sight" reputation among those who are not.

Disclaimer: I don't expect anyone to agree with the above, as I know Elves have great PR departments and people love them. But it's not a wild swing out of nowhere, there is a basis in observation, and it makes as much sense to me as "Elves are a great bastion of good in the world". I do find that sort of fluff, separating the "myth" from the "truth" makes the race more interesting than being Good for Goodness's Sake.

Shining Wrath

2013-09-19, 04:07 PM

Fax Celestis

2013-09-19, 04:08 PM

Psyren

2013-09-19, 04:16 PM

I don't really get the "good guys" vibe off of the CotSF. I get the "these loonies think they're the good guys" vibe, which is pretty different.

The vibe you're supposed to get is that "there are few to no true good guys in Eberron, and even the ones that are good may be pawns to the ones that aren't - don't trust anyone." Which is the atmosphere you need for a fantasy noir setting.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-19, 05:04 PM

The vibe you're supposed to get is that "there are few to no true good guys in Eberron, and even the ones that are good may be pawns to the ones that aren't - don't trust anyone." Which is the atmosphere you need for a fantasy noir setting.

Agreeing with Psyren. They intentionally implemented a heavy amount of moral ambiguity in Eberron, trying to move away from the "black v white" trope that pervades much of classic D&D. Along with undead as a national resource, aboriginal drow, and robots, the idea was to diverge substantially from many established norms for previous settings. Having purge-happy nice guys is pretty much par for the course.

Now, morally speaking, it is no less appalling. I totally agree that anyone that holds themselves to any firm standard of goodness should have dropped out of silver flame. Beyond the racism and genocide, there is a certain groupthink that they tend to perpetrate that bothers me. A kind of cherry-flavored borg-lite dressed in the robes of goodness.

It bothers me. But I think that's the point.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-19, 05:21 PM

[Snip]
I much perfer the Wood Elf flavor of elves (High Elves wander too much into Mary Sue territory unless done well), but only when they make sense and are a part of the natural order, not some sort of crazy snooty hippie that acts like a jerk to everyone.

Especially when the crazy snooty hippies are somehow well liked despite being jerks (even to the point of letting others die) or have good booze/stonework/leathermaking/metalwork without addressing how difficult that would be, especially for nomads.

Now, an elf that wears leather, stalks the forest, hunts animals, avoids the monsters that the PCs need to clear out? I'm all for that.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 05:31 PM

Was that explanation supposed to make it all ok? Yeah, not EVERY member of the CotSF are bastards. I get that. But that justification was just appalling. "Yeah, a small but significant chunk of the members committed genocide, and the others are still willing to work under the same banner as those people, but...look at all the charity and stuff they do, that totally makes up for the massed slaughter of entire groups of creatures, right?"

No. That doesn't make it ok. Any truly GOOD member of that church would want nothing to do with the "Purgers" and would have splintered off into their own group long ago. A Schism, they call it. But they didn't. Which means they apparently didn't mind so much.

Baker wants a setting of moral grey, I don't mind at all. But mass genocide isn't some minor little blemish on an organization. And it's not all in the past, the setting outright says some members of the church present day would like to start a new purge. The fact that the group is presented as the good guys is what makes it so disgusting and intolerable.

As Baker says in the quote, the slaughtering of shifters and good lycanthropes was not "okay" it was horrible and wrong. The Purgers were removed from their positions of power. The Silver Flame Church realizes that what happened was horrible and in the present protects and that entire section of history is a black mark on both the Silver Flame and Eberron as a whole.

However, describing the entire Church as "genocial xenophobic jerks" after they lay down their lives to protect people (the "charity stuff" you mentioned) is IMO unfair.

Actually there's another quote that I think explains things better than I can:

In our continuing discussions of the Church of the Silver Flame, the subject of the Lycanthropic Purge has come up. One poster says:

On reflection, I think one of the main things that make many people think of the Flame as intolerant and corrupt is the Purge. As described in the ECS, it was pretty much unwarranted genocide.

I just wanted to speak to this point, because it's valid. In the ECS, what were we trying to do with the Lycanthropic Purge? Did it come across as we intended?

First off, when we were developing the setting, it was still 3E D&D. At that time, all lycanthropes were capable of spreading the curse of lycanthropy. It wasn't until well after the release of the setting that someone pointed out that in 3.5, afflicted lycanthropes DON'T spread the curse, at which point we all slapped our foreheads. The point all along was that lycanthropy was a dangerous, contagious infection. It was most likely to be spread by evil lycanthropes, because they are the ones who take pleasure in attacking other creatures. Even being infected by a good lycanthrope will completely alter your personality and tear you away from your previous life; there's a reason the MM calls it "the curse of lycanthropy" even when it's being spread by good lycanthropes. But evil-aligned lycanthropy is, in my mind, a truly terrifying thing. Before the curse truly takes hold, "evil aligned lycanthropes seek to murder as many intelligent beings as possible, often killing their own family members and friends." Once the curse takes hold, "an evil lycanthrope who is aware of his actions is not compelled to muder indiscriminately, but delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek out opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably of his own race." (both quotes from page 178 of the 3.5 MM.) In my eyes, the evil lycanthrope isn't a natural beast; natural wolves aren't driven to such excesses of murder. Instead, he embodies our FEARS of nature - the primal terror of the beast that lurks in the dark.

This comes back to my previous point. Supernatural evil is a very real threat in Eberron. it's easy for us to feel sympathy for the werewolf when we don't have to worry about him killing us in the middle of the night. But look at the game Are You A Werewolf? (or Werewolves of Miller's Hollow). When playing that game, does anyone ever say "We should just leave the poor werewolf alone"? No, because the werewolf is murdering someone every night. When we hear the words "witch-hunt", we usually think of an unjustified inquest against innocents... but it takes on an entirely different meaning if there really are witches out there killing people!

That was the point of the Lycanthropic Purge: to say that there was a very real and deadly supernatural threat - a curse that at best would ruin someone's life, and at worst turn him into a bloodthirsty killer - and that the Church took action to stamp it out. It was always intended that their actions should be seen as harsh and as having tragic consequences for both shifters and good lycanthropes. As noted on page 230 of the ECS, the crusade was driven by the followers of the Pure Flame, the small group within the church who lean towards overzealous action. But it was still supposed to be an effort to protect innocents from harm; one that simply had tragic consequences for another group of innocents, the shifters. Even there, the idea always was that this persecution was encouraged by the lycanthropes themselves, who after all "reveled in bloodshed", including that of their own kind. Furthermore, as page 171 of the ECS notes, the Church now realizes that the actions taken against the shifters WERE unjustified and now seeks to prevent further violence and persecution of shifters.

So a MAJOR issue is that the ECS was written under the assumption that afflicted lycanthropes are infectious. The Dragonshard stating that "they became infectious" is essentially an effort to match the original intention of the event with the change in the 3.5 rules. Hence the idea that all lycanthropes were infectious WHEN THE PURGE OCCURRED - because they WERE infectious when we as designers came up with the idea OF the purge.

In any case, the Purge was always supposed to be a sign of how good intentions can go wrong, and the final days of the Purge WERE supposed to be a sign of how justice can turn into a hunt for vengeance. But it was always supposed to be the case that the purge BEGAN as a noble endeavor. But the poster above says that the ECS presentation describes it as "unwarranted genocide", and the primary thing that makes the Church look intolerant and corrupt. So I wanted to take a closer look at exactly what the ECS says about it, and the church in general.

Page 67-68 (Main description of the religion): Nothing about the purge, beyond the fact that the church "is dedicated to protecting the common people against supernatural forces of evil." Not only is there nothing about the Purge, there's nothing about corruption within the church. If one takes this as the simplest, most fundamental description of the faith, it's just an LG religion dedicated to fighting supernatural evil.

Page 77 echoes this: "The Church of the Silver Flame is dedicated to fighting supernatural forces of evil across Khorvaire... most exorcists of the Silver Flame are... on the front lines of the war against evil."

Page 170-171, in describing the Eldeen Reaches, states "Hunters and warriors devoted to the Silver Flame came to battle evil magical beasts, eventually driving the more dangerous creatures into the deep woods." Again, a purely positive depiction. Continuing on, it does specifically state that shifters have suffered persecution at the hands of the Silver Flame, but that in recent years the church has withdrawn from this position and doesn't consider the shifters to be spawn of evil.

The description of Thrane doesn't even mention the Purge.

Page 225 says "The inquisition to wipe out lycanthropes is launched by the church of the Silver Flame. It lasts fifty years and drives the species almost to extinction." Here, clearly we're dealing with a few loaded words - "inquisition" and "extinction". Again, to me, our original intention could have been described along the lines of "The CDC begins an aggressive campaign to wipe out smallpox. It takes fifty years and almost completely eliminates the disease." In writing this section, we were working with the assumption that lycanthropy was an infectious curse which at best changes your personality and drives you away from civilization, and at worst turns you into a killer. Again, it was always intended to be an act that was extremely harsh - but it was still intended to be an act taken to deal with a very real threat. If they killed instead of curing, it was because curing lycanthropy is a very difficult task (either requiring a 12th-level cleric within a set time limit, or a lower-level cleric and a DC 20 Will check - which the afflicted character can always choose to have fail!) and every day innocent people were dying or being afflicted. It may have ended as a stereotypical witch hunt, but in the begining there were real, deadly "witches" killing people.

Finally, we get the description of the Church of the Silver Flame on page 229-230. It says the following:
"The priests and paladins of the Silver Flame have battled the forces of darkness for hundreds of years... Its followers are engaged in a never-ending struggle against the forces of evil. They have fought demons, hunted lycanthropes almost to extinction, and battled all manner of monsters..."

Purely taking that statement, does it sound like battling lycanthropes is supposed to be a bad thing? We've lumped them with demons and "monsters". As I said, the big thing here is that we, the writers, didn't realize the vast sympathy many people have for lycanthropes. Again, I see the D&D werewolf as a terrifying creature embodying our fear of the predator - a creature who "delights in bloodshed" and may murder his own family and friends. By and large, this wasn't supposed to BE an evil act; it was supposed to be an attempt to defend the innocent from supernatural evil.

With that said, it WAS supposed to be an action that was flawed in its execution, because it did result in the death of good lycanthropes, and the persecution of innocent shifters (though as I said, in part that was supposed to be encouraged by the lycanthropes themselves; it was absolutely to their interests to have the church fighting innocents and being distracted from the true foe, and THEY had no love of shifters - remember, they enjoy murdering their own kind). This was supposed to be driven by the overzealous and intolerant MINORITY in the church, as spelled out on page 230. "A SMALL portion of the faithful believe in the Pure Flame.... in the past, the Puritans helped initiate the inquisition against lycanthropes and inspired crusades of all types." Likewise, you have the central idea of Are You A Werewolf - that in their panic and quest for vengeance, the people who have suffered at the hands of these creatures will themselves kill innocents. Again, I consider the stronghold of the Pure Flame to be IN Aundair, where the people have suffered supernatural terrors and see the Silver Flame as a weapon.

In conclusion, I'm just saying that the material in the dragonshards and later books reflects the view I always had of the Purge; I simply didn't realized that we needed to spell it out so clearly (and the rules change threw everything off). It was supposed to be a harsh solution to a problem that sacrificed a certain number of innocents in the interests of saving many, many, more. The modern church considers the persecution of innocent shifters to be a mistake and a tragedy, but at the time, it was driven by the very real threat of the lycanthropes hidden within their communities - lycanthropes that enjoyed preying on shifters as much as humans. In a world where good and evil aren't always clear-cut, the evil lycanthrope was something I always considered to be VERY clear-cut... because it's an unnatural and extreme variation of the alignment forced on the victim by a magical curse. It was never supposed to be "unwarranted genocide", any more than the statement "They have fought demons, hunted lycanthropes almost to extinction, and battled all manner of monsters..." is supposed to make you say "Awww... poor widdle demons." It was supposed to be a virtuous act that simply went too far, and which, because of human failings, became a quest for vengeance that harmed innocent shifters and good lycanthropes when it was originally a quest to destroy true monsters.

So, it was always supposed to be a FLAWED action, an action that had tragic consequences. But like the Church itself, overall it was supposed to have been a noble act DESPITE the flaws and tragedy. Again, shades of gray - not perfect justice, but an attempt to deal with a terrifying threat that sadly fell prey to human imperfection, mob mentality, and the thirst for vengeance once the threat was effectively contained. So next time you play Are You A Werewolf?, think of Aundair and the Silver Flame.

I don't really get the "good guys" vibe off of the CotSF. I get the "these loonies think they're the good guys" vibe, which is pretty different.

Why? Besides the Purge the Silver Flame hasn't really done anything worse than the other religions that I can think of. Also MOAR QUOTES:

There's been a lively discussion in response to my last post regarding the Church of the Silver Flame and the other religions of Eberron. I've been responding to individual comments, but the last comment that's come up is one which I felt deserved to be the subject of a new post.

Edhel writes: "Keith, you _really_ need to check your info on [BLEEP]. She's the 'good PR but rotten to the core/deluded fool' type that IMO the Silver Flame / [BLEEP] church / any authoritarian institution so easily protects. To me, the SF has always resembled [BLEEP] church. One authority and lots of gullible people to take advantage of..."

This isn't the first time I've seen people make this sort of comparison. In comparison to the loosely organized pantheistic Sovereign Host, the Church of the Silver Flame is an institution with clear hierarchy, strong established doctrine, and a history both of military action and well-intentioned actions that have occasionally had terrible consequences... and for that matter, a history of supporting charitable works across Khorvaire.

But at the end of the day, in my opinion, the Church of the Silver Flame has more in common with the Jedi Order of Star Wars than any religion of our world. It is not the [BLEEP] Church nor any other religion of Earth, and people should consider the following things before jumping to this conclusion.

1. The unquestioned presence of supernatural evil. Check your ECS: the core principle of the Church of the Silver Flame, above everything else, is to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. You could argue that any religion in our world may be seen as serving the same purpose; but it means something very different in Eberron. We're talking about a world where the dead DO walk. Where anyone you speak to could be an ancient rakshasa plotting your destruction. A world where the Dreaming Dark manipulates your sleeping mind, and where the daelkyr linger below the ground waiting to rise again. If you are a human living in western Aundair or the eastern Eldeen Reaches, odds are good you have people in your family tree who were killed by werewolves - and again, when the Silver Flame first began the Purge, the typical templar was far outgunned by the typical lycanthrope. The comment above describes the church as a power that takes advantage of "gullible people". But in Eberron, there's no mystery about its mission: when demons break free from Khyber, you'll be glad to have paladins come to your defense. Eberron is not Earth, and people are constantly faced with threats that we only think of as myth and story.

2. The Church was born in such an act of salvation. The modern church of the Silver Flame was born when one of the Overlords of the Age of Demons partially broke free of his bonds and called a host of demons to Thrane. As it was, many innocents were killed - but only a fraction of those who would have fallen if the rajah had fully escaped and stretched his hand over Thrane. Essentially, imagine Cthulhu rising, smashing New York City, and then being defeated by a champion empowered by a force of light - who gave up her life in the process. Would you really be shocked to see many New Yorkers - $^#& that, many Americans - choosing to embrace this force that was responsible for their salvation? That's the core of the Church of the Silver Flame: an act of selfless sacrifice in the face of a terrifying threat. Similar evil must be defeated with similar sacrifice - while human evils such as greed and selfish aggression must be overcome through compassion.

3. Jaela herself is a leader chosen by the Flame. She's not the product of politics, otherwise we'd be looking at Keeper Krozen right about now. I don't think we've had any 11-year-old [SPIRITUAL LEADERS], though I admit my knowedge of European theology is rusty. We have our corruption among those who are using the church as a way to gain power. But at its heart, the spiritual leader of the church is unquestionably chosen by the force that empowers the church. Whether you believe in the true divinity of the Flame is up to you - but whatever that power is, it chose Jaela. Thus, we can hope that her moderate views represent the true path the faithful should follow.

4. True champions of the Silver Flame risk their lives to defend people of all faiths. Again, the early days of the Lycanthropic Purge weren't a "purge" or a witch trial; they were a bloodbath. Try it yourself - match a 1st-level human warrior up against a werewolf. And the people of Aundair were NOT followers of the Silver Flame (although many admittedly were inspired to adopt the faith due to the selfless actions of the templars, leading to the support you seen in the region today). Far from despising these heathens who followed the Sovereign host, the soldiers of the Silver Flame laid down their lives to protect them. Because the core principle of the Silver Flame is to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. Not "innocent followers of the Silver Flame" - ANY innocents. In Eberron, there IS darkness and light. There are angels and devils. And the Church of the Silver Flame is dedicated to fighting the darkness.

With all of that said, again, the point of Eberron is that even in such a bastion of light you will find darkness - that human nature will always be seen. Just as with the Jedi you have those who do turn to the Dark Side. Nonetheless, I think the Jedi are a good metaphor to use - because like the Jedi, the champions of the Silver Flame are charged to fight forces of evil that we know only from our nightmares.

There's nothing wrong with considering elements of our history and life as touchstones for a game - it's these things that make a game feel real. But just don't forget the things that make it different from our world. The Church of the Silver Flame may have greedy priests who take advantage of their flock (the Sovereign Host certainly does, as seen in some of the novels) or who have joined the priesthood for political reasons as opposed to spiritual ones. But it also has a clear, vital mission. This IS a world threatened by demons and monsters. At any point a rajah could rise, a new incursion come come from Shavarath or Xoriat, a quori could decide to claim your dreams, or a legion of undead could attack your village. And when these things happen, you can hope that Champions of the Flame will be there to save you, as they have been since the couatl first kindled the Flame in the Age of Demons. Yes, the presence of a central authority does create the potential for abuse of that authority (although again, remember: the Keeper is chosen by the Flame). You may find a faithless minister, a greedy cardinal, an intolerant templar, or even a cleric serving the darkness within the Flame. But the followers of the Silver Flame also include people who have chosen to serve the light and take a stand against the darkness - people who recognize the presence of TRUE evil in the world (and again, look to the hierarchy of evil in Faiths of Eberron for a clear definition of how the church sees this) and who are prepared to defend others from it, even if it costs their lives.

So again, I have no problem with people choosing to emphasize the darkness within the Church, or doing their own thing with it. But in looking to the principles behind our original ideas when we created the church in the ECS, it was intended to be a force for good whose followers don't always live up to the incredibly high standards of their faith - not a fundamentally corrupt, flawed institution that does more harm than good.

The vibe you're supposed to get is that "there are few to no true good guys in Eberron, and even the ones that are good may be pawns to the ones that aren't - don't trust anyone." Which is the atmosphere you need for a fantasy noir setting.

I disagree and I am also a quoting MACHINE:

First, the point is that it IS imperfect: that even in this bastion of righteousness and pure good, there is corruption and intolerance. In a pure high fantasy setting you might simply say "They're the good guys, plain and simple. They're Dudley Do-Right, and you KNOW you can trust any follower of the Silver Flame.

The point of Eberron is that you can't. There MAY be corruption at any level of the church. There MAY be intolerance and violence - because humans can't always live up to the noble ideals of the Church. But the reason in my mind that this makes a good noir story is because it's the EXCEPTION, not the rule. For noir, IMO, pure darkness is just as worthless as unblemished light. You need the SHADES of gray - and that means you need some good to be out there, as a comparison to the evil.

Beyond that, if I'm running a pure noir story, I'll probably keep the true champions of the Silver Flame at a distance. But Eberron isn't just about noir - it's a spectrum between pulp and noir. And in pulp stories, you DO have champions of light and pure servants of darkness. That's where Tira Miron lives - she's a pulp heroine, the blade of light standing alone against the demon lord and willing to lay down her life to protect the innocent. There's your pulp story; and your noir story comes in the schemes of the cardinal abusing the faith of the followers. But the fact that the cardinal can abuse that faith presumes that the flock ARE faithful, and that's back to our shades of gray. The evil is part of the church, but it's the shadow of the Flame, not the foundation of the institution.

There is pure good and pure evil in Eberron (the magical creatures). There is also people who are generally good and generally bad (the nonmagical creatures like humans and elves). You can trust the current leader of the Silver Flame Church (Jaela) because she is a good person. Nothing really suggests she's the pawn of an evil being either.

Agreeing with Psyren. They intentionally implemented a heavy amount of moral ambiguity in Eberron, trying to move away from the "black v white" trope that pervades much of classic D&D. Along with undead as a national resource, aboriginal drow, and robots, the idea was to diverge substantially from many established norms for previous settings. Having purge-happy nice guys is pretty much par for the course.

Now, morally speaking, it is no less appalling. I totally agree that anyone that holds themselves to any firm standard of goodness should have dropped out of silver flame. Beyond the racism and genocide, there is a certain groupthink that they tend to perpetrate that bothers me. A kind of cherry-flavored borg-lite dressed in the robes of goodness.

It bothers me. But I think that's the point.

What groupthink? :smallconfused: And see the first Keith Baker quote in this post. I wouldn't really call the Silver Flame "purge-happy" at all.

Also, I think this probably warrants a new thread actually. Don't want to derail this one more.

EDIT: Voila (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304333)

Psyren

2013-09-19, 05:38 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 05:42 PM

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say Jaela was a pawn of evil. But the ability of the good folks to clear their church of the folks that aren't is limited. It was an issue of competency, not of motive.

Sure but my point is that most of the folks in the Church are good (also, we should probably be talking about this is the thread I linked at the bottom of my previous post)

Zombulian

2013-09-19, 06:15 PM

Waaait just a second here. Wasn't this a race thread?

Edit: nvm I jumped to the bottom before I saw that the Count took care of it.

Palanan

2013-09-19, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by ArcturusV
Which is weird for a good race claiming to love nature. [Elves] tend to come in two varieties, hosting evil races...or just general acceptance and apathy that they allow such things into their homes.

I'm not a deep expert on Realmslore, but I think the elves of Myth Drannor were in no way welcoming of evil incursions; it was the drow who moved in, all sneaky-like, and began summoning evil things. Those elves who remain in Cormanthor are doing what they can to oppose them, as the FRCS points out:

"Those elves who have returned from Evermeet...work constantly to conceal old magic from the drow or defend sites too large to hide with the most powerful guardians they can find."

If this looks like it's Not Enough Against the Forces of Evil, I think this is what we call a Plot Hook (TM).

:smalltongue:

Gorrammit, how does everyone get the superscript on the TM, anyway?

.

ArcturusV

2013-09-19, 08:12 PM

Yeah. you might say that. But the fact is that it happens... A LOT. It's not just a one off example. It's constantly happening to Elves. Which suggests less "evil plot by others and general incompetence to prevent it" to "something is wrong with them which allows this rot to flourish".

They may claim good. But Pride is one of those gateways to Evil.

Palanan

2013-09-19, 08:17 PM

It probably happens a lot because the game designers think it makes for compelling drama or whatnot.

:smalltongue:

In-world, or in-worlds, I think this has less to do with a predilection towards evil, or any other inherent nefariousness (umm, nefarity?) than the general aspect of elvenkind, borrowed straight from Tolkien and diffused across many settings, of a decline and waning of their power, and the lessening of their ability to hold off evils which they could have easily repelled long ago.

ArcturusV

2013-09-19, 08:30 PM

Perhaps. Either that or game designers don't have a strong grasp on the subtle hues of Evil. Hell, sometimes I question their obvious hues of Evil. Like the Elven Split. Last I heard it had something to do like: Elves unprovoked attack Dark Elves. Dark Elves say "Okay, you want it?!" and counter attack aggressively. Elf God curses Dark Elves for being evil and banishes them from the light for daring to defend their own homes and cultures against the war someone else started.

I just like the fluff that comes with it. Or the implied fluff. When you have the Tolkienesque "We are superior to all others" type of elves... well it's easy to turn them evil in ways like I covered up above. And it's interesting. I like the idea of playing an elf who is in the running for "Asmodeus's best accomplice" but think they are just the pinnacle of all that is good and natural in the world.

Palanan

2013-09-19, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by ArcturusV
...Like the Elven Split. Last I heard it had something to do like: Elves unprovoked attack Dark Elves. Dark Elves say "Okay, you want it?!" and counter attack aggressively. Elf God curses Dark Elves for being evil and banishes them from the light for daring to defend their own homes and cultures against the war someone else started.

Laughing out loud at this, in a good way. Probably the single funniest summary of the drow creation story I've ever seen. :smalltongue:

Originally Posted by ArcturusV
I just like the fluff that comes with it. Or the implied fluff. When you have the Tolkienesque "We are superior to all others" type of elves... well it's easy to turn them evil in ways like I covered up above. And it's interesting.

I see where you're coming from, and that's one way to develop some really good roleplaying.

In Tolkien, I always saw the elven assumption of superiority as less arrogance than the slightly sad, slightly amused tolerance of ancient, ancient beings towards the fervent, eager, ephemeral humans and halflings. To me, it had a gentler touch.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-19, 09:11 PM

Elves were really player races in Tolkien, a work of fiction. I tend not to like any race where I cannot imagine a member of that race being a farmer, potter, scullery maid, or dungsweeper for actual RPGs.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-19, 09:17 PM

In Tolkien, I always saw the elven assumption of superiority as less arrogance than the slightly sad, slightly amused tolerance of ancient, ancient beings towards the fervent, eager, ephemeral humans and halflings. To me, it had a gentler touch.

Some of the elves were pretty darn arrogant, though, and not just relative to humans and other races of Middle-Earth. The elf that forged the silmarils (Eol? There were a couple elven smiths of note, and I ALWAYS get them mixed up) was asked by the gods to hand them over after Morgoth put out the lights for the second time. Unless my memory of the story is failing me, he refused, and started a generations-long feud that basically doomed all of his descendents to misery and death.

EDIT: AHA. Feanor. Yeah, thanks wikipedia.

Palanan

2013-09-19, 09:34 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-19, 09:56 PM

I would see Feanor and similar as stiff-necked individuals, rather than representing the race as a whole, although I do see what you mean.

Also, I was thinking mainly of the elves as presented in Lord of the Rings, with which I'm far more familiar than the Silmarillion. The last time I read the Silmarillion, Serenity was just out in theaters.

:smalleek:

Hehe, well, I think the small remnant of elves in Middle-Earth during the period of the novels are really the most lenient and open-minded of the lot. Not that they aren't wise, but they are hardly gracious, having shunned humans for ages. The whole "elves in retreat" is right out of Tolkien. Isolationist elves was the norm back in the day, but currently, they are often portrayed as both not uncommon, and rather integrated. This is probably partly because so many people like to play them.

Elven discussion is also highjacking this thread, lol. Kudos to the OP, for starting a discussion that has been so prolific.

Zombulian

2013-09-19, 10:22 PM

Hehe, well, I think the small remnant of elves in Middle-Earth during the period of the novels are really the most lenient and open-minded of the lot. Not that they aren't wise, but they are hardly gracious, having shunned humans for ages. The whole "elves in retreat" is right out of Tolkien. Isolationist elves was the norm back in the day, but currently, they are often portrayed as both not uncommon, and rather integrated. This is probably partly because so many people like to play them.

Elven discussion is also highjacking this thread, lol. Kudos to the OP, for starting a discussion that has been so prolific.

I always found it interesting that even with all the lengths D&D seems to go to to make elves seem to be an integrated part of city-life, the main half-elf archetype is someone who's be ostracized.

Jeff the Green

2013-09-19, 10:38 PM

I've just built a new character for a campaign, and in the process have fallen in love with kenkus. Their fluff is a bit sparce, but they're anthropomorphic corvids, able to mimic sounds perfectly, and are fantastic teammates. They're born in rookeries but leave at an early age to join up with like-minded kenkus. Frequently these groups are criminal gangs, as they're very good spies and skirmishers.

+1 for Illumians.

Tibbits are fun, as descendants of wizards' familiars.

Novawurmson

2013-09-20, 12:21 AM

Jaebrin, Warforged, Elans, Samsaran (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran), Hellbred, Hobgoblins, Blues, Half-elves, native outsiders (tieflings, aasimar, sylphs especially), Tengu, Gnolls. Any kind of playable undead (Dhampir, Necropolitan)

Jaebrin - Fae children with crazy teeth? Count me in. Crunch could be a little more interesting.

Warforged are an incredible take on what a sentient creature built to fight would be like trying to adapt to normal life. Races of Eberron really made them for me.

Elans - Any kind of immortality interests me, but immortality at the price of quite possibly losing your former sense of self is an intriguing trade.

Samsaran - Again, immortality, at a cost.

Hellbred - You've got a giant ticking clock from the day you were born to prove you don't deserve hell for your former life. That's one heck of a backstory and motivation.

Hobgoblins - I like the brutal, warlike feel. You can tweak them as you see fit. Roman? Imperial Chinese? Samurai? Mongol horde? Conquistador? Aztec? All up to you, the just need to fight for fighting's sake.

Blues - Not quite sure what I love about them besides that they've got all the insanity of the goblin in a thinking mind.

Half-elves - Races of Destiny made me fall in love with them.

Native outsiders - I like the trapped between two worlds trope. If you haven't read the description of tieflings from The Bastards of Erebus (I believe), you're missing out. It really brings out how horrifying the conception, birth, life, and death of a tiefling would be.

Tengu - I guess they're a little bland if you don't work with them a little (bird-people who like shiny things), but I love working them into whatever setting I play in.

Gnolls - Crazed hyena people! I really like the Eberron take on them (they ally with everyone in Droaam to make sure they're always on the winning side. Very "The gnolls are for the gnolls."

...and undead are probably my favorite trope of all time. I still haven't found a definitive "undead PC race," but I'm hopeful I'll find it (or make it) one day.

gurgleflep

2013-09-20, 12:28 AM

I was looking around the local hobby shop a couple days back and (with the help of Google) came across a couple new hybrids that I can't wait to use either as a player or a DM.
The first is from Kingdoms of Kalamar and it's called the Tel-Amhothlan - they're elf/orcs. The second is in the Complete Guide to Drow, and it's called the Shatúrug - these ones are drow/orcs.

Another race I found (friend told me about it) is from the Underdark Adventure Guide, it's called the Athasi. They're supposedly one of the first sentient races and hate pretty much all other life - even tried killing the gods or something. I'm not as fond of them as I am with the hybrids mentioned before, but they're still pretty danged cool :smallbiggrin:

Magma Armor0

2013-09-20, 12:30 AM

Goblins, drow, Kobolds, in that order.

Goblins are hilariously funny, drow seem really awesome, and Kobolds are fun to play when the character insists he be identified as a "true dragon" xD

Optimator

2013-09-20, 12:55 AM

I love Hobgoblins

Tokuhara

2013-09-20, 01:23 AM

otakumick

2013-09-20, 01:38 AM

another of my favorites are Illithids... terrifying horrors, but at the same time descendents of refugees from their empire at the end of time... pretty darn insane fluff for an insane race.

RoyVG

2013-09-20, 03:13 AM

I'm a big fan of the Warforged, especially their history and their future. I really like the way how the Warfoged have multiple PrC that go deepe into the warfoged trying to find their role in life. (Landforged Walker, Reforged, and WF Juggernaut)

I'm also a fan of the Aasimar, even if they are merely humans with a drop of celestial blood. They are still the only race I can think if that have Paladin as a favored class. It makes them even more awesome if you go evil.

Milo v3

2013-09-20, 03:16 AM

I'm also a fan of the Aasimar, even if they are merely humans with a drop of celestial blood. They are still the only race I can think if that have Paladin as a favored class. It makes them even more awesome if you go evil.

Hellbred also have Paladin as their favored class, because they are trying to do as much good as possible to redeem their already damned souls.

bobthe6th

2013-09-20, 03:53 AM

I always want to like half orcs. They could be cool, but always come off as "we can't let you play actual orcs, so have basically the same thing."

geekintheground

2013-09-20, 04:00 AM

i gotta +1 changelings, and am gonna put a vote for whisper gnomes. as you can tell, i like natural spies :smallamused:

RoyVG

2013-09-20, 04:17 AM

Hellbred also have Paladin as their favored class, because they are trying to do as much good as possible to redeem their already damned souls.

Didn't know about those, thanks.

Grayson01

2013-09-20, 05:06 AM

Honestly from reading this thread I have come to relieze I love Ebberon Fluff.
As I thought about this question and read the posts all I could think of was yeah I love that Ebberon race and that one and that one. So here is my list:

Shifters: Come on Desendents of Lychans. Beast fury from with in. Hunted, looked down on, dam near purged! There is just so much my imagination can do with that.

Warforged: The whole philospy of it is just so appeling to me. You can go of script or go ubar logical and Lawful (which is very me). Plus they are friggen ROBOTS!!!

Changlings: the Dragon Prophecy Books did it for me. The Idea of a Changling spy who becomes his new faces, his personality changing with each face, losing himself (wait should say him really) it's self in each of his new Id's. Is just wow FUN! Or you could take it as an open out Changling who says yeah I am what I am but F you. Or just evil master mind stealing peoples lives.

Then there is the Regular races that they make so not the norm

Halflings: Eberron halflings are awesome, No where else but the big EB can you have a BArbairan HALFLING that makes sense!!

Then their is the Elves. The Undead Whorsiping kind or my favorite the Valenar Plains Riding, Scymitar Weilding, war loving pretty much evil bastard elves!!

Grim Reader

2013-09-20, 06:57 AM

Half-elves are my all-time favorite fluff. Changelings, Elan, Mul and Kalashtar are recent addition to the favorites. Shifters get honorable mention, the concept is great but there is something I can't quite put my finger on that keeps them out of my top row.

Zombulian

2013-09-20, 09:57 AM

I love Hobgoblins

Me too! We should make a club.

I've just built a new character for a campaign, and in the process have fallen in love with kenkus. Their fluff is a bit sparce, but they're anthropomorphic corvids, able to mimic sounds perfectly, and are fantastic teammates. They're born in rookeries but leave at an early age to join up with like-minded kenkus. Frequently these groups are criminal gangs, as they're very good spies and skirmishers.

+1 for Illumians.

Tibbits are fun, as descendants of wizards' familiars.

Aah Kenku! I forgot about those! There was a dragon mag that went pretty deep into their fluff and it was really cool.
Tibbits are great as well.

Psyren

2013-09-20, 10:01 AM

I love PF Hobgoblins. Always wanted to make a Pit Boss Magus.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-20, 12:07 PM

My favorite is definitely an odd choice, but I love them all the same: the Volodni of Faerun.

I don't know what just sucks me into them, but playing a sentient plant who is naive and unaware of mortal behavior is just a blast

Killoren make a close second, along with PF's Oakling (3rd Party race, basically mini-treants)

They can go ahead and make their stinky Hobogoblin club, we can make a Volodni/Killoren club. And thanks for mentioning the Oaklings, they seem pretty cool and now I am tempted to pick up that book.

Palanan

2013-09-20, 12:53 PM

Sign me up for Team Oakling, I hadn't heard of those. Which book are they from?

And the volodni are very cool, especially the pine sap for blood.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-20, 01:54 PM

Oaklings are third party PF material, but you can get a peek here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/alluria-publishing/oakling). They seem pretty balanced with most races, but I am not the best with mechanics.

Palanan

2013-09-20, 02:26 PM

Thanks for the link--but wow, oaklings seem...strange. And sketchy. And very oddly described:

"Survival is of primary concern to an oakling, and they are seldom known to be self-sacrificing or precocious."

I can't fathom what the word "precocious" has to do with the rest of the sentence, or the rest of the entry for that matter.

Reading further...hmm. Just...hm. I think I'll stick with the volodni.

ericp65

2013-09-20, 03:15 PM

Arcana Unearthed also has some interesting races :smallsmile:

Tokuhara

2013-09-20, 03:37 PM

Sign me up for Team Oakling, I hadn't heard of those. Which book are they from?

And the volodni are very cool, especially the pine sap for blood.

We need a Banner and Theme Avatars...

ArcturusV

2013-09-20, 04:38 PM

The whole Oakling thing reminds me of the Dioneanans. They're vampiric plant barbarians. Which I love. Weakness to fire but short of "Grabbing you and draining the life out of you" it's also one of their primary weapons they use.

Which reminds me of the other races from PD20 that I liked, like the Hilidarians and Skoleans. Though the Skoleans didn't get enough fluff done. Waiting for the PD20 Gorns book to come out for that.

AlanBruce

2013-09-20, 06:36 PM

All are great races, but there is one rarely looked at. Maybe because no DM would allow it at the table as a playable race.

The Protean Scourge (MM3). They look like devils, but are not. They can mimic anyone, like dopplegangers. They have formidable sorcerous abilities.

However, that isn't what takes me home with them.

If by chance you cut them, they split in two! Not an illusion. Now you have two of these guys to deal with.

I can see a great schism like RP with one of them, trying to battle inside their minds to see who is right or wrong. What actions to take, etc.

Wish there was more fluff on them, though.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-09-20, 06:51 PM

Arcana Unearthed also has some interesting races :smallsmile:

Well yeah, if that counts for this thread. The way they portray Giants is very different than in D&D and pretty interesting. And AU/AE has probably my favorite race (in terms of fluff) of all, the Verrik (http://arcanaevolved.wikia.com/wiki/Verrik). The strange-looking yet built solely for practicality structures, the inherent psionic capabilities, the ancient curse they keep hidden away from the other races, and just...the weirdness in general. Being able to turn off your senses and back on at will may or may not ever be useful, but it sure is cool as hell. And they're the race that literally pioneered my two favorite AE classes, Akashic and Witch.

Snowbluff

2013-09-20, 07:48 PM

Well yeah, if that counts for this thread. The way they portray Giants is very different than in D&D and pretty interesting. And AU/AE has probably my favorite race (in terms of fluff) of all, the Verrik (http://arcanaevolved.wikia.com/wiki/Verrik). The strange-looking yet built solely for practicality structures, the inherent psionic capabilities, the ancient curse they keep hidden away from the other races, and just...the weirdness in general. Being able to turn off your senses and back on at will may or may not ever be useful, but it sure is cool as hell. And they're the race that literally pioneered my two favorite AE classes, Akashic and Witch.
-3 to Verrick. These guys are pretentious jerks, or at least the writer who wrote them is.

EvilJames

2013-09-21, 01:11 AM

Hopefully some 2nd ed races won't be too frowned upn here.

Aranea, of the Mystara/Red Steel flavor. Changlings have nothing on them.
A nation of paranoid shapechanging spellcasting spider monsters, they hide what they are with a passion. They raise their children to see themselves as two separate beings, one is the true self and the other is an alter ego. They do not reveal themselves to non aranea for any reason; to do so could put those companions at risk from other aranea if they find out. They go to great lengths to keep their secret. They even help hunt others of their own kind if they get outed. In their past they even accidently destroyed another culture to keep it. (They are not exactly proud of that part)

I also like the fluff for the Shadow elves of Mystara. They are albino elves that live under ground but it was a natural disaster that caused the split not randomly turning evil.

The Enduks of Mystara are also fun flying minotaurs allied with flying elves to retake their homeland from the manscorpians (who also have some interesting fluff like being cursed from the sight of their original immortal patron. ie they burst into flames on contact with the sun)

Elves have always been my favorite race to play, but after playing Planescape: Torment, I began to love the Githzerai (if you haven't played Planescape: Torment, you should; it's wonderful). It fascinates me how their race was enslaved by the Mind Flayers and how they managed to rebel. It's nice to see that they have a cousin race as well and how similar, yet how they differ from the Githyanki.

The problem I have with the Githzerai in torment is that afterwards Wotc took an awesome against type character and decided to make it the standard version for the race in 3.x. Githzerai live in Limbo and were chaotic as was appropriate but now they are all Lawful like the one in Torment:smallannoyed:

Hey whoa, I did some cool stuff as my Warforged Totemist. But I see what you mean.

A favorite of mine is the Hadozee. I mean, they're FLYING SQUIRREL MONKEY PEOPLE! Plus they're pirates! Aahhh!

I liked em in 2nd ed Flying monkey people ... in spaaaace! It was certainly nice to see them again in 3rd.

Exiled Modron are my favourite. They were once cogs in the wheel of law, now forced into exile from their original body and mind(they are given amnesia and their soul is ejected from their body then put into a new one.) for their "malfunction." It is wonderful for the DM because it allows the DM to work with the player on a backstory, working it in as the campaign moves forward; As well as allowing the player to truly explore a world completely alien with an adult level brain(Processor?).
Ahh rogue modrons. 2nd ed's Robots. Never got to play one and I've only had one person play one briefly in my games, so I've never got to really do much with them. They have a certain built in tragedy to them. They are part robot part fallen angel cast out from heaven.

Sajiri

2013-09-22, 06:16 PM

unseenmage

2013-09-22, 06:28 PM

I dont check the thread for a few days and all these new replies pop up :smalleek: with all the +1 to.. I wonder if I should count everything up and see who wins...sure looks like warforged atm though

Woo! Yeah Warforged FTW!
(Or at least I hope so.)

The best pieces of any game are the ones that break the rules. And Warforged definitely fit that bill. Heck, with the right interpretation of the rules they're both living creatures and objects and magic items all at once.

On top of which they've got that whole soul/no soul dynamic going for them. If Deathless hadn't been so late to the party maybe they'd have gotten as much love as the Warforged.

Zombulian

2013-09-22, 06:30 PM

Sajiri

2013-09-22, 06:56 PM

Really? I swear I saw way more hate to Warforged than love.

If we go by people just saying 'I like warforged' and dont take away from it with 'I dont like warforged'..plus, Im at work, and there were a lot of replies, I've mostly skimmed the big ones to reread later just to see who people like

Naomi Li

2013-09-22, 07:17 PM

For raw "coolness" factor, my favourite race is probably the kayal (aka Fetchlings, though why humans felt the need to rename them I don't know).

Overall, though, my favourite race is probably the halfling. (Specifically, the Pathfinder version of them; not familiar with the various 3.5 versions) Their small size, innate capability for spontaneous magic, their culture, their love of food... all of these traits and many more appeal to me.

Kobolds appeal to me too, and I think their reputations are very oddly negative based off of what they actually do. To me, they seem only MILDLY more evil than dwarves, if that, and I think they're a lot more interesting.

Alex12

2013-09-22, 07:45 PM

Dvati. One soul, so large a single body cannot contain it, so they need two. Each body is linked to the other with an unbreakable mental link that transcends even planar boundaries. If one body dies, the other cannot survive the stress of containing the full soul, and begins to break down.

Elans and Necropolitans. So desperate for agelessness that they'll sacrifice anything for it, even their very self, or their status as something other than a horrible undead monstrosity.

Kobolds.

TheIronGolem

2013-09-22, 10:10 PM

Another +1 for Warforged. They're more conceptually flexible than they seem at a glance.

I played a warforged in a Forgotten Realms game, where it doesn't exist as a race (everyone just called him a golem). The character was actually a minor extradimensional being that was bound into a golem-like body by an evil wizard who was trying to make Magical Battle Droids. He didn't realize what the wizard was up to at first due to naivete, so he cooperated, eventually learned what was up, and escaped. Now he uses his new body to explore this strange new realm, help people in need, etc.

Also, humans. Seriously. They're a blank slate that you can write anything onto. Rarely will some traditionalistic DM tell you that you can't have that background because you're human. Lack of pre-existing fluff is a strength of its own. And from the mechanical side, bonus feats and skill points will never go to waste.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-22, 10:15 PM

If we go by people just saying 'I like warforged' and dont take away from it with 'I dont like warforged'..plus, Im at work, and there were a lot of replies, I've mostly skimmed the big ones to reread later just to see who people like

I think it would be interesting to count both. Perhaps as a challenge to create or RP an awesome member of a race that has received hate?

Scow2

2013-09-22, 10:16 PM

My favorite race is Gnoll. My favorite take on them is Keith Baker's 4e article on them, making them one of the few truly 'justified' evil races (Hint: They're listening to the Abyss since day 1), and yet still have room to rise above that.

EvilJames

2013-09-22, 10:24 PM

To be fair most of the -1 warforged are based on bad players not bad fluff and shouldn't really count anyway. It's not the fluff's fault that some people can't play em properly.

Zeb

2013-09-22, 10:34 PM

Gnomes, Stick with me here. My first exposure to gnomes was in the forgotten realms and while not listed as one of the creator races it seems they are not only natives but have been there since the beginning. Other than the recent kobold and goblin hate they get along with all the other races. Plus no evil subrace. Plus who invented smokepowder? That's right gnomes.

Elans, because psionic immortality is just cool.

unseenmage

2013-09-22, 10:36 PM

I think it would be interesting to count both. Perhaps as a challenge to create or RP an awesome member of a race that has received hate?

To be fair most of the -1 warforged are based on bad players not bad fluff and shouldn't really count anyway. It's not the fluff's fault that some people can't play em properly.

Seconding both of these.

Trickquestion

2013-09-22, 10:44 PM

Bullywugs. They're these demented little frog men living in swamps, who had some seriously Lovecraftian lore going for them way back in the beginning. Even though they're pretty low on the sentient monster totem pole, I've always thought they have the potential to be awesome bad guys.

Psyren

2013-09-22, 11:00 PM

Just about everything in the ARG and Ultimate Psionics is really cool and well-written to me.

Sajiri

2013-09-22, 11:14 PM

I think it would be interesting to count both. Perhaps as a challenge to create or RP an awesome member of a race that has received hate?

Maybe I'll do that, and work out 'scores'...next weekend, when I dont have to work and have time =_= I'd have to check carefully I'm not doubling up on people reposting to discuss

EvilJames

2013-09-22, 11:17 PM

So maybe everyone should + or - each race mentioned so they can be totaled.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-22, 11:44 PM

Huge fan of Grippli and Firenewts, btw. Have been since 2e.

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images/c/cb/Firenewt01.jpg
Firenewts (Monsters of Faerun):
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Fire, Reptilian)
2 Monstrous Humanoid RHD
30' speed
Dex +2, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -2
Single target breath weapon once every ten minutes
Favored: Barbarian
No LA

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/200956/Grippli-Hunter.jpg
Grippli (Drag #394):
Small Humanoid (Grippli)
20' speed, 20' climb speed
Darkvision 60'
+6 racial to Hide in marsh
Do not suffer movement penalties in marshlands
Str -2, Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha -2
Favored: Rogue
No LA

unseenmage

2013-09-23, 12:06 AM

Psyren

2013-09-23, 09:15 AM

Huge fan of Grippli and Firenewts, btw. Have been since 2e.

Grippli were updated to Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli) and even got a whole chapter to themselves in the ARG :smallsmile:

http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1121-Grippli.jpg

Grippli Magus focusing on water spells = Frog!

Snowbluff

2013-09-23, 09:17 AM

They remind me of Muckdwellers. :3

Fax Celestis

2013-09-23, 10:26 AM

Grippli were updated to Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli) and even got a whole chapter to themselves in the ARG :smallsmile:

http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1121-Grippli.jpg

Grippli Magus focusing on water spells = Frog!

Oh, I know. I played a Grippli Marksman in my last PF game.

Zombulian

2013-09-23, 10:27 AM

+1 for Gnomes
I'm gonna add in Hengeokai in case they haven't been introduced yet. Because the are just so darned cool. Lots of ways you can choose to roleplay em too.
On the subject of OA, Nezumi are great. Rat people with a glorious past. They had a gigantic empire that was crushed by an evil god falling from heaven. The rubble of their empire mixed with the lingering evil of that god created the shadowlands, and the Nezumi stayed in the shadowlands as protectors of good and spirituality.

Saidoro

2013-09-23, 11:00 AM

Pilo

2013-09-23, 11:08 AM

Beguiler, a nice cute fluffy race which is hunted by a bad evil etheral predator.

Fey'ri.

Kobold, servant of the Original True Gods (The Dragons).

Kagonesti, Dragonlance wild elves. Slaves Free workers of the "good" elves races.

Tegannie

2013-09-23, 02:04 PM

+1 to Changling.
I like the fluff of Buoman (the "singing monks": they can't talk and communiate by singing/chanting) and Raptoran (bird people) as well.

StreamOfTheSky

2013-09-23, 06:48 PM

I'm a fan of whisper gnomes. Mostly because I think their fluff is how gnomes should have been run to begin with. Instead they're seen as jolly little people when halflings already fill that role or tinker gnomes which should die in a fire.

Actually, I always thought Whisper Gnomes, both flavor-wise but ESPECIALLY mechanically, were how Halflings should have been done.

I don't mind the tinker gnomes that much. Possibly because I've never played WoW, possibly because I *have* played Baldur's Gate 2, and Jan is awesome.

Honest Tiefling

2013-09-23, 06:53 PM

Oh god. Jan is no where near a Tinker Gnome, if you mean the Tinker Gnomes of Kyrnn. I lost my discs, but I think Jan is what a Tinker gnome should have been: Intelligent, but odd, eccentric and curiously dangerous.

evisiron

2013-09-23, 07:00 PM

I am kind of partial to humans. They survive and thrive in a world knee deep in civilizations and races that trump them in almost every regard. The idea of humans out-breeding elder races like elves and dwarves has always tickled me.

ArcturusV

2013-09-23, 07:17 PM

I never really accepted the "outbreeding" reason myself, by the way. If that were true? A race like Gobbos who breed in litters and constantly would be the dominant race upon the world, instead of barely scrapping to life around the fringe of civilization, hunted for sport and profit by other races.

I always preferred Divine versus Adaptation fluff for the reason why humans are dominant. Humans are (Until Races of Destiny I suppose) the only Race without a Patron God/dess. Elves, Dwarves, Half-a-men, Orcs, Gobbos, etc. They all have some higher power whom they claim source from. Who gave them all their gifts and advantages, long lives, power, knowledge, skills, etc, and serves as their eternal protector.

Humans... don't.

So it paints an interesting fluff picture where Humans are dominant because they EARNED it. Not because they "outbred" elves and what not. But because they had no patron god who handed them gifts and boons like candy raining from the heavens. They fought and clawed their way to dominance by having to be more determined, ruthless, clever, and yes, to pull a direct line from the fluff "Adaptable" than the other races. And that's why they dominate.

...

...

Unless you look at the obvious reason that fantasy settings need a "human" race to serve as a familiar baseline for the players/readers and thus are needed to be dominant for storytelling purposes... but hell, I'm talking Fluffery here. :smallbiggrin:

Zombulian

2013-09-23, 07:27 PM

Uhhh I think you're forgetting ZARUS. The god of the master race.

Tvtyrant

2013-09-23, 07:27 PM

In my campaign humans are, along with Drow, the divine race. More clerics than anyone, whereas the Goblins have no magic at all.

Palanan

2013-09-23, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Psyren
Grippli were updated to Pathfinder and even got a whole chapter to themselves in the ARG.

I really love frogs, but perhaps because of that, the grippli always seemed a little silly to me. They're...intelligent treefrogs. Uh-huh. Gotcha.

The Pathfinder update (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli) does include a gliding trait, which is a nice reference to Rhacophorus and kin, and I do like the option for a skin poison. But no racial bonus to Climb? For a creature based on a treefrog?

(Unless Pathfinder doesn't do racial bonuses....)

ArcturusV

2013-09-23, 07:33 PM

Uhhh I think you're forgetting ZARUS. The god of the master race.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. That god they introduced in "Races of Destiny". Then again Humans = Teh Bestest! existed probably long before Zarus was a twinkle in some designer's eye. So there had to be some reason. Outbreeding never made sense, otherwise Goblins would rule the roost.

And by fluff isn't Zarus a "new" god? I can't quite recall.

Zaydos

2013-09-23, 07:34 PM

Dwarves. In both 2e and 3.5 their Races book had the best fluff of any I saw and got me to get the other races books in hope of more of the same. I'm just always disappointed they are bad paladins as the idea of dwarven paladins serving the (Lawful Good) interests of their clans and cities is just so fun to me.

This is why I have grown disillusioned with elves, in both editions their book's fluff was poorly written and either just didn't interest me (Races of the Wild) or could be summed as "elves are better and special and awesome and here are some mechanics to represent all the things they can do better than everyone else. Did you know elves are immune to natural temperatures? And can fire bows when upside down? No one else can." (Complete Book of Elves) :smallsigh: I really dislike that book.

Also -1 for Warforged. While I like the concept working them into a world restricts the world far too much, and even in Eberron I was disappointed with them. That doesn't stop me from trying.

Blueiji

2013-09-23, 07:39 PM

Warforged Dragonborn of Bahamut.

Because there's just something pretty inherently great about being able to play as a mecha dinosaur.

In all seriousness though, I like Blues (as you can probably tell from my avatar/username).

Fax Celestis

2013-09-23, 08:02 PM

I really love frogs, but perhaps because of that, the grippli always seemed a little silly to me. They're...intelligent treefrogs. Uh-huh. Gotcha.

The Pathfinder update (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-grippli) does include a gliding trait, which is a nice reference to Rhacophorus and kin, and I do like the option for a skin poison. But no racial bonus to Climb? For a creature based on a treefrog?

(Unless Pathfinder doesn't do racial bonuses....)

They have a climb speed. That gives them a +8 racial bonus to climb.

Manly Man

2013-09-23, 08:21 PM

They have a climb speed. That gives them a +8 racial bonus to climb.

Which is a Hell of a lot better of a racial bonus than you can get anywhere else without having LA, as far as I know.

As for other races, I really like the huge amount of planetouched races there are in Pathfinder. All of the elemental planes, good, evil, and a few others; they're definitely a lot more playable, and they have a lot of variable features as well. I once made an aasimar Paladin who subsisted entirely off of honey and wine, and as a result, kept having noob vampires trying to attack her (about as sweet-blooded as it gets). A smite and a few rounds later, and they were either misting away, or ashes. I really wish that they'd do something for the Astral Plane, and have them featured as a psionic race, but meh.

Palanan

2013-09-23, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
They have a climb speed. That gives them a +8 racial bonus to climb.

So they do, missed that. Much better, then. :smalltongue:

Auramis

2013-09-23, 08:45 PM

Humans and human variants. As awesome as elves, dwarves, halflings, etc. are, I'm always partial to playing humans (normal, silverbrow, etc.), with certain elves coming in second. Everyone else is a bit more specialized, and I value the ability to be flexible. That, and the prospect of an average human outdoing centuries old elves and dwarves in a fight or with certain skills always makes me smile.

Manly Man

2013-09-23, 09:09 PM

Oh, also from Pathfidner, the thriae. I blame it on the fact that I just like bugs a lot (had a Paladin with a Large celestial monstrous spider as a mount once, was amazingly cool, and very cute for something normally seen as icky), but that they stick closer to the fact that, apart from drones, social insects are almost entirely female, makes me feel better about people who try to include arthropodal folks. I was just a little kid, and I was raging at stuff like Antz and A Bug's Life, because I knew that they'd gotten that wrong.

The squick involved with the fact that they're ALL female (they produce no drones) is a little iffy, but it can give you a few good ideas for an adventure. A local nobleman or prince, known for being either a beefcake or a pretty boy (or both) ends up stuck in a colony of thriae, and it's the party's job to get him back home, whether through negotiation or by simply busting him out.

Being chased by a swarm of bees is already bad enough. Having those bees armed with spears, swords, bows and arrows, and worst of all, MAGIC, really is frightening. Throwing rocks at one of their nests is probably among the top ten "Dumb Things That Will Get Me Killed".

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-23, 09:13 PM

Dwarves. In both 2e and 3.5 their Races book had the best fluff of any I saw and got me to get the other races books in hope of more of the same. I'm just always disappointed they are bad paladins as the idea of dwarven paladins serving the (Lawful Good) interests of their clans and cities is just so fun to me.

Sorry you feel that way about elves *wink*, but I have to agree 1000% with the bit about 2e dwarven fluff materials. I still draw on ideas from the 2e book on dwarves, which was seven kinds of win, despite being fairly short. It had a great mix of designing an interesting individual, while also allowing the DM to give dwarves a great presence as a culture, with clans and strongholds and the like. Excellent stuff.

Palanan

2013-09-23, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
I still draw on ideas from the 2e book on dwarves, which was seven kinds of win, despite being fairly short.

I skipped 2E entirely, and I'm gradually coming to realize that I missed out on a lot of good source material--much of which, from the sound of it, was a fair sight better than most of the pablum churned out for 3.5.

So, what's the title of this sevenfold book of dwarf-win? :smalltongue:

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
I still draw on ideas from the 2e book on dwarves, which was seven kinds of win, despite being fairly short.

Hur hur hur.

:smallbiggrin:

Zombulian

2013-09-23, 09:20 PM

Yeah that's what I was thinking. That god they introduced in "Races of Destiny". Then again Humans = Teh Bestest! existed probably long before Zarus was a twinkle in some designer's eye. So there had to be some reason. Outbreeding never made sense, otherwise Goblins would rule the roost.

And by fluff isn't Zarus a "new" god? I can't quite recall.

Nope. He's a greater god. An ascended mortal who was born from the world itself, for no god could create such perfection. He was the first human.

Scow2

2013-09-23, 09:23 PM

Nope. He's a greater god. An ascended mortal who was born from the world itself, for no god could create such perfection. He was the first human.And yet, nobody (Or very few peoples) actually worship him. He attained his status by serving as an example. In fact, I'd say those that bend knee to him instead of forging their own destinies don't get what he's actually about.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-23, 09:25 PM

@Palanan:
Very eponymously The Complete Book of Dwarves. The artwork...oh, one of the best things about 2e really was the full-page color art. Lemme see if I can link something *dives into google*

Ah, only bing on this comp...*sadface* Here.
(http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=complete+book+of+dwarves&qs=AS&sk=&FORM=QBIR&pq=complete%20book%20of%20dwarves&sc=1-24&sp=1&qs=AS&sk=#view=detail&id=4601A57CB948C40F4E026E500D2A2C5CF7A0C5AB&selectedIndex=11)

Not the best one, but nice.

ArcturusV

2013-09-23, 09:33 PM

Wasn't the first "human" a Vasharan? And Godsmacked to death before a Devil revived him?

Also going to second, or third, or whatever the "2nd edition had cool source material".

Complete Book of Dwarves was one that I missed out on. Though I liked the "Class" handbooks a lot for how they handled it. Complete Paladin's Handbook? Pure awesome. It made me want to play Paladins (Where I hadn't before) and if I never read it, never would have appreciated them.

Only downside was their "Alignment Examples" in various books because it invariably included one of the few bad thigns from 2nd edition. Stupid Alignments. Aka, all the "True Neutrals" being cosmic philosophers who can't make a decision without considering how it effects the alignment balance of the multiverse or Chaotic Neutral as "Stark raving insane and incapable of rational thought".

And no, that latter one is not even a tiny bit of exaggeration. That is a literal definition. Every example of Chaotic Neutral they had was completely incapable of making a single rational thought.

Still it'd be good to check out for Fluff material. It included a lot of gems. Like the Plane of Fire not being the "City of Brass" necessarily, but an alternative which was a plane of endless regrowing forest being burned to cinders in waves, the ashes sprouting a new forest, etc. Which I thought was a lot more interesting and made something like a Fire Elemental creature just that much more unique to me.

Palanan

2013-09-23, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Very eponymously The Complete Book of Dwarves....

Ahh, thanks. Worth looking into.

As for the artwork, it's consistent with what else I've seen of 2E. Certainly beats most of the truly awful stuff in the 3.5 Completes.

Also, on books and artwork in general, I do have to say this for Pathfinder: I'm not a huge Wayne Reynolds fan, but their artwork is quite often a notch above; and some of their writing, at least, is a breath of fresh air.

Manly Man

2013-09-23, 09:41 PM

Wasn't the first "human" a Vasharan? And Godsmacked to death before a Devil revived him?

Vasharans were the attempt by the gods to make humans, which happened before actual humans were spawned by that god-dude. They were struck dead, but Graz'zt went and brought a few of them back from the dead, and helped cultivate their desire to destroy all gods.

Rakaydos

2013-09-23, 09:43 PM

Silva Stormrage

2013-09-23, 09:48 PM

Ya I am going to also say Illithid are my favorite. Cold logical alien beings who when faced with the destruction of their civilization essentially create a magical bomb to send them back in time. Immensely cool in my opinion, too bad they have such bad level adjustment in 3.5.

gurgleflep

2013-09-23, 10:07 PM

Manly Man

2013-09-23, 11:07 PM

Out of curiosity, where did you get the "magical bomb" thing from? I've never heard mention of it :S

It was the energy that came from a bunch of Elder Brains being sacrificed at once that made a huge explosion, one big enough to tear a hole in space-time, which the illithids used to escape the dying universe.

Zombulian

2013-09-23, 11:13 PM

Out of curiosity, where did you get the "magical bomb" thing from? I've never heard mention of it :S

That part of the fluff specifically is in Lords of Madness. Amazing book. If you haven't read it I recommend you do.

@Scow2: I actually disagree. Zarus is more about showing humanity's superiority to all other races. Especially through extermination. Basically a Nazi god.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-23, 11:49 PM

Halflings: Eberron halflings are awesome, No where else but the big EB can you have a BArbairan HALFLING that makes sense!!

Ummm... Ghostwise Halflings from Luiren (Forgotten Realms) 'say' hello.

+1 to basically every "Eberron" Race - Races of Eberron is still one of my favorite 'fluff' books of 3.5e.

I'm also a huge fan of the Dromites.

Ansem

2013-09-24, 03:35 AM

Drow if they didn't have LA+2, I mean their SLA suck honestly and I could do without.
Besides the endless class substitute levels and variants, special feats and prestige classes, the idea of being a member of some magic inquisition theocracy is just awesome and makes for great flavour in your character and his association with party and world.

Grayson01

2013-09-24, 04:51 AM

Wanna Add in Thy-Kri cause who doesn't wanna be a four armed Praying Mantis with natural Psy powers and a BA double Polarm!

Yuan-Ti for some reason Snake people are awesome!

Kafana

2013-09-24, 06:09 AM

Am I the only one around here who thinks the Hadozee are the coolest? :D

Psyren

2013-09-24, 08:35 AM

Vasharans were the attempt by the gods to make humans, which happened before actual humans were spawned by that god-dude. They were struck dead, but Graz'zt went and brought a few of them back from the dead, and helped cultivate their desire to destroy all gods.

That's their creation story according to them, anyway. You'll note that just about every evil race's origin story dogma has them being super-special, the so-called good gods being jealous/spiteful/dismissive in some way, and the race getting screwed over royally.

In cases where we have 2 sides of the story (e.g. Corellon + Grummsh, Garl + Kurtulmak, Corellon + Lolth etc.) the good side is always very different. Makes you wonder who to believe really...

Fax Celestis

2013-09-24, 08:50 AM

Am I the only one around here who thinks the Hadozee are the coolest? :D

Yes. :smalltongue:

Ummm... Ghostwise Halflings from Luiren (Forgotten Realms) 'say' hello.

+1 to basically every "Eberron" Race - Races of Eberron is still one of my favorite 'fluff' books of 3.5e.

I'm also a huge fan of the Dromites.

It's like you're a clone of me...

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-24, 09:41 AM

It's like you're a clone of me...

I'll take that as a compliment.:smalltongue:

Tathum

2013-09-24, 12:54 PM

Goblins.

I run a pretty vanilla 3.5 campaign, and goblins are great because most players dot expect much from them even in large groups. But throw in a few rogue levels, maybe a cleric for buffs and healing, two fighters with axes, and one riding a dire bat while dropping mini-fire bombs from above (1d4 a pop with slash damage that he got his own friends with from time to time), and they suddenly pose an interesting threat.

We have a ranger currently with goblin kids as a hated race and he's having a blast with the broad range I've thrown up against them.

And then there's the goblin that runs a magic caravan that visits town from time to time. Again, annoying pests, but with enough guile and brains to run a business with an ogre body guard and stuff low is characters want.

I personally name all my goblins after audio and video codecs. The party currently has to find a magical bauble of interest for the Goblin Divix before he will sell to them. Soon they will find Owlbear eggs that will have Divix tell Emkev to open the wagon.

Piedmon_Sama

2013-09-24, 01:57 PM

Core

-Half Orcs. I have to admit I enjoy subverting the usual cliche so much that "Half-Orc with two loving parents" is a stock character of mine. I like going for a more nuanced approach where Orcs are neither ravening, always-hostile monsters nor "just another" race. They're dangerous and have the usual emnity with Dwarves/Elves, but willing to trade peaceably with humans. Sometimes you get surprising unions on the frontier. The Half-Orc is both part of humanity and part of the vaster wilds beyond; as barbarian, ranger, fighter or rogue he's in many ways the ultimate adventurer, with no community to truly call home and a touch of the monstrous in himself.

Noncore

-Illumians. I don't exactly play them by out-of-the-book fluff (in which they're... living books or something), but prefer to imagine them as humans who have incorporated magic into their bodies in order to achieve ULTIMATE VERSATILITY. (Like a race of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater, but actually effective). An origin in fantasy transhumanism with the worthy goal of gathering all knowledge to create the best individuals possible.

-Shara Kim. Again I sort of dropped the convoluted origin in Races of Destiny and wrote in my own. They're Orcs who were altered by magic (at their own request) to become more intelligent. Unaccepted in human society and unable to return to the lands of their ancestors, they're talented in both mind and strength but isolated by prejudice, with few opportunities. A natural adventurer's background. Also the image of them being extremely fussy and hung up on manners in order to be "un-orclike" as possible is hilarious.

EvilJames

2013-09-24, 01:57 PM

4E Gnolls.
You have the abyss whispering crazed monster,
The brutal matriarchy of hyenafolk,
Those who have turned against their abyssal origin into a regular plains tribe
And Mercenaries and cutthroats of Ebberon.

I liked 2nd ed's fluff for them with the struggle between their neglectful creator god Gorelick and the abyssal lord Yeenagu. But then Gnolls were always good for refluffing for different worlds.

Am I the only one around here who thinks the Hadozee are the coolest? :D

Nope your's is their third mention.

That part of the fluff specifically is in Lords of Madness. Amazing book. If you haven't read it I recommend you do.

With all this talk of the fluff from 2nd ed, I would be remiss if I didn't also mention the 2nd ed fluff book The Illithiad. It's also good for some background on them. Some of which is added to by Lords of Maddness. The beholder fluff book I Tyrant is also fun.

JaronK

2013-09-24, 02:03 PM

In cases where we have 2 sides of the story (... Garl + Kurtulmak,...) the good side is always very different. Makes you wonder who to believe really...

Kurtulmak. That's the one to believe. Garl's story doesn't even make sense.

Stupid gnomes. Always jealous of mighty dragons.

JaronK

otakumick

2013-09-24, 02:10 PM

Garl's story = I committed genocide as a prank.

Kurtulmak's story = Garl was jealous and tried to kill us all.

Either way, how does Garl get to keep claiming to be Good?

Either way, the chief of the gnome pantheon is a genocidal looney... with a questionable sense of humor.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-24, 02:15 PM

Ah, the mention of the Sharakim reminds me of a very cool 2e orc variant. I believe *reaches into the depths of memory*....Grayback Orcs? Not sure that's right....

In any case, they were a variety of orcs that had foregone the violent, raiding lifestyle of their barbarous forebears in favor of a peaceful, agrarian society. Because they didn't need to fight all of the time just to get food, they had a more stable culture and social structure, and were moderately more civilized. Kind of like Amish orcs. Great flavor for playing a stereotype-breaking orc.

EvilJames

2013-09-24, 03:13 PM

Ondonti Orcs are what I believe you are referring too. They live in Faerun somewhere. The Zhentarim kidnapped a bunch though trying to make them into skilled killers though. The Zhentarim ar jerks like that.

Manly Man

2013-09-24, 04:52 PM

Another favorite race for me is the half-giant. I kind of blame it on the fact that I like strong women, but whenever I make one that's female, I always end up going with a martial class; I've only made males into Ardents, for some reason...

But seriously. I'd love to gestalt Warblade/Crusader//PsyWar and make She-Hulk.

Sith_Happens

2013-09-24, 06:26 PM

In cases where we have 2 sides of the story (e.g. Corellon + Grummsh, Garl + Kurtulmak, Corellon + Lolth etc.) the good side is always very different. Makes you wonder who to believe really...

Considering the "good" side seems to be Corellon at least half the time, it really makes you wonder.:smalltongue:

Psyren

2013-09-24, 07:04 PM

Kurtulmak. That's the one to believe. Garl's story doesn't even make sense.

Stupid gnomes. Always jealous of mighty dragons.

JaronK

Garl's story = I committed genocide as a prank.

Kurtulmak's story = Garl was jealous and tried to kill us all.

Either way, how does Garl get to keep claiming to be Good?

Either way, the chief of the gnome pantheon is a genocidal looney... with a questionable sense of humor.

I see doubts in Kurtulmak's story though. RotD says he didn't become a god until after the collapse, when Io recovered his broken body - but Deities and Demigods says that Kurtulmak was already a deity when it happened, and it was only his pride that was wounded. DaD strikes me as the more "neutral" of the two books.

And while Kobolds often decorate their shrines with Gnome skulls, the reverse is not true.

Milo v3

2013-09-24, 07:10 PM

And while Kobolds often decorate their shrines with Gnome skulls, the reverse is not true.

And Gnomes are trained from a young age in combat methods to specifically kill Kobolds AND goblins, while the reverse is not true. :smalltongue:
One does sound more genocidal than the other.

Psyren

2013-09-24, 07:21 PM

And Gnomes are trained from a young age in combat methods to specifically kill Kobolds AND goblins, while the reverse is not true. :smalltongue:
One does sound more genocidal than the other.

You don't see the difference between knowing how to kill something and actually killing that thing?

Milo v3

2013-09-24, 07:27 PM

You don't see the difference between knowing how to kill something and actually killing that thing?

The Kobolds are racially trained as Miners and Trapmakers, compared to Gnomes who are racially trained to attack Kobolds and Gnomes.
The way the Kobolds probably got those skulls from their traps stopping evil assualts genocidal gnomes of while they were mining. :smalltongue:

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-24, 07:42 PM

Eh, let me drop my two cents and say that WotC mildly botched trying to retcon kobolds in as a player race. The mechanics are mostly fine (aside from some DWK wackiness), but the flavor conflicts heavily with representations that the kobolds had in the past.

That said, IMHO Kurtulmak does the kobolds that follow him few favors with his outlook on the world. I don't mind kobolds, they are actually pretty cool. But I do mind that they are simultaneously full of win, yet bizarrely following Kurtulmak, who is not. But that's just largely my opinion.

Here's my recollection of the evolution (not by edition, just in order):

1st: Kobolds are joke, non-playable creature from earlier additions. Weaker than goblins. There were animals waaay more dangerous than kobolds, and they suffered from the black v white paradigm of earlier editions.

2nd: Joke race got joke god, Kurtulmak. So far, still consistent.

3rd: Joke race got serious makeover in 3rd edition. But joke god was still pretty joke. No retconning of the situation b/t Garl and Kurtulmak, which I am pretty sure dates way back to the early days of the game (or at least the racial enmity is very old, even if the mythology wasn't around to support it). This is weird, because it is now a conflict between two serious races, but based on an old version of the story and a racial enmity that really doesn't mesh well with kobolds being playable.

Just my opinion.

Psyren

2013-09-24, 07:51 PM

The Kobolds are racially trained as Miners and Trapmakers, compared to Gnomes who are racially trained to attack Kobolds and Gnomes.
The way the Kobolds probably got those skulls from their traps stopping evil assualts genocidal gnomes of while they were mining. :smalltongue:

"Kurtulmak's clerics lead war and raiding parties... Others lead expeditions to explore new areas and probe dwarf and gnome settlements for weaknesses the Kobolds can exploit. No Kobold community is complete without a temple or shrine to Kurtulmak... Inside, a temple to Kurtulmak is cramped and usually decorated with piles of gnome skulls."

The "raiding parties" and "probing gnome settlements" are a much more probable source of the skulls by my reading. It's more likely that they encroach on gnome territory, harass them until they charge in to retaliate, and then the traps finish the job.

Eh, let me drop my two cents and say that WotC mildly botched trying to retcon kobolds in as a player race. The mechanics are mostly fine (aside from some DWK wackiness), but the flavor conflicts heavily with representations that the kobolds had in the past.
...
This is weird, because it is now a conflict between two serious races, but based on an old version of the story and a racial enmity that really doesn't mesh well with kobolds being playable.

Just my opinion.

I'm inclined to agree really - since every Kobold is expected to know the Kobold side of the story, I don't see how WotC expected any of them to ever want to be in the same party as a gnome.

Drow in a party with an Elf I can see - they might dislike the Elf, but even other Drow (especially males) realize how much of a b****h Lolth is. But Kurtulmak from the Kobold's perspective is like the Dark One from OotS, a totally awesome leader who was totally wronged.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-24, 08:00 PM

I'm inclined to agree really - since every Kobold is expected to know the Kobold side of the story, I don't see how WotC expected any of them to ever want to be in the same party as a gnome.

Drow in a party with an Elf I can see - they might dislike the Elf, but even other Drow (especially males) realize how much of a b****h Lolth is. But Kurtulmak from the Kobold's perspective is like the Dark One from OotS, a totally awesome leader who was totally wronged.

Or for the racial conflict to exist in the same form. Nowadays, it seems to me that gnomes should only hate Kurtulmak kobolds, not all kobolds. I could be wrong, but RotD left me with impression that not all kobolds are big fans of Kurtulmak (and at least that is how I run it in my world), and that the story with the gnomes should have been altered to more accurately reflect that it is a religious, not a racial, conflict (i.e., only pertinent to those of each race that care about the mythology).

I'm sure wars would still happen, and there would be plenty of hatred, but it would leave a more plausible space for players to design a character that isn't part of a Hatfields v McCoys-kind of dynamic.

otakumick

2013-09-24, 08:02 PM

To be fair to the gnomes, the rest of their pantheon is less genocidal...

geekintheground

2013-09-24, 09:40 PM

i cant take kobolds seriously, i started all my rpg-ish gaming with world of warcraft and if i make a kobold it will run around screaming "you no take candle!"

ArcturusV

2013-09-24, 09:52 PM

Manly Man

2013-09-24, 10:17 PM

Heh. I take them seriously because when I started RPGing on the tabletop they were a huge threat that was never respected. It's even why my groups had invariably named the "Proof Critical Hits are not your Friend but the DM's" "The Kobold Problem", where a level 20 fighter would get slaughtered, every time, by an equal amount of Kobolds.

Fluff wise I almost always disliked any "monster" race that ended up becoming a PC race. Kobolds are up there with Drow. I feel like the mix of trying to respect their past and also make them viable tends to produce wonky fluff that results in Master Race Kobolds, or the Every Drow is an Emo Git sort of thing.

I ended up making my table hate kobolds with a passion from actually playing them as trap-making enthusiasts. The team's Warlock was ordered to be right behind the Rogue, who looked for things that were out of place, and then the Warlock had everyone stand back while he blasted it from sixty feet.

The sixth trap, as it turned out, was a pit that opened up sixty feet away from the pressure plate.

Yeah, I'm not allowed to make kobold dungeons ever again.

Scow2

2013-09-24, 10:23 PM

I ended up making my table hate kobolds with a passion from actually playing them as trap-making enthusiasts. The team's Warlock was ordered to be right behind the Rogue, who looked for things that were out of place, and then the Warlock had everyone stand back while he blasted it from sixty feet.

The sixth trap, as it turned out, was a pit that opened up sixty feet away from the pressure plate.

Yeah, I'm not allowed to make kobold dungeons ever again.Go home, Tucker. You're drunk.

Rakaydos

2013-09-24, 10:34 PM

Personally, I think Kobolds make a better fit with the Dragonlance "tinker gnome" architype than actual gnomes do.

Imagine a "Tinker Kobold" Artificer for a moment. how awesome is that?

Ruethgar

2013-09-24, 10:36 PM

I like creatures made from AEG's Create Life spell because I can make my own fluff as to who/what created them.

As far as an actual race, Hellbred is one of my favorite for fluff. The Vashar back story is neat, but I've also been on a demon/devil kick of late so it may just be that.

Milo v3

2013-09-25, 10:14 PM

I recently found the Phoelarche. A race of monstrous humanoids decended from Pheonix's. Along with the stock standard fire abilities, they have a species wide wonderlust which also drives them to value freedom over anything else, but the main thing about them which caught my interest was their deaths.

When they die they explode leaving only ash and an egg made of black glass, which then hatches into a large (medium sized) hawk with golden feathers, an aura of flame, breath weapon, and no memories of it's past existance.

When these birds die, they explode again and leave the black glass egg again, hatching into another bird.

So slowly the numbers of Phoelarche will decrease, but leave an immense number of these awesome fire bird things.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-25, 10:17 PM

Milo v3

2013-09-25, 10:27 PM

'
I always thought it would be cooler (and less of a long-term population issue) if the rebirth cycled back and forth between the humanoid and the bird, instead of just into a bird, then more bird. Not that the birds weren't cool, but the lack of symmetry apparently bothered me.

I'd think that no symmetry thing would be a major aspect of their mentality. They only have a short existance (compared to all the normal creatures) because they effectively only have one life in a world with a revolving door of death.

Also, I'd think that nearly all of them would have a dislike at best for the birds because they would serve as a reminder how fragile their existance is compared to nearly everyone else.

russdm

2013-09-25, 10:48 PM

That's their creation story according to them, anyway. You'll note that just about every evil race's origin story dogma has them being super-special, the so-called good gods being jealous/spiteful/dismissive in some way, and the race getting screwed over royally.

In cases where we have 2 sides of the story (e.g. Corellon + Grummsh, Garl + Kurtulmak, Corellon + Lolth etc.) the good side is always very different. Makes you wonder who to believe really...

The "good" side of the story is never presented in a clear or precise fashion explaining why we are supposed to side with them versus siding with the "evil" side. Also, we never see the "good" looking smart or even "good" in their own story.

Garl's story = I committed genocide as a prank.

Kurtulmak's story = Garl was jealous and tried to kill us all.

Either way, how does Garl get to keep claiming to be Good?

Either way, the chief of the gnome pantheon is a genocidal looney... with a questionable sense of humor.

This made me decide gnomes were deeply annoying and needed to get axed. Seriously, gnomes are trained to kill kobolds, but kobolds aren't. If the gnomehate is supposed to be so key to kobold identity, then shouldn't the kobolds gain benefits to harm gnomes? Something even worse to consider, Garl could have apologized or done something after his prank to make up for it. He does nothing. So he basically sets in motion the events leading to his race having to deal with kobolds.

Oh, and the reason for his pranking? His people, the gnomes, were a race of lazy pranksters who were looking like they would end up falling out of the major race line because they were lazy types. Apparently, Garl never considered trying to tell them to stop being lazy.

Then apparently, none of the other gods had any issue with the genocide. Except Io, a dragon deity. So all the other "good" gods were totally fine with genocide. So, what? Garl is an approved Hitler? and Garl is supposed to be good, too??? would that mean, (Garl)Hitler = Good?

?? Hitler encourages/commits genocide, zero approval rating after the fact.??
?? Garl commits genocide as a prank, 100% approval rating and celebrated as being an awesome guy after the fact.??

ArcturusV

2013-09-25, 11:04 PM

Note Russdm, that's not even really unique to Garl among "Good" gods.

What's the story with the Drow, for example, that I touched on earlier?

Drow live in the jungles, and are basically just another race of neutrality like humans.

A group of elves attack and destroy a bunch of Drow Cities.

Drow say "**** that, we're not going to let you just exterminate us!" and fight back, eventually taking the fight to the other elves.

Elf God Correllean McDouchebag goes, "Gasps! You're attacking Elves who started a war against you! You're clearly evil! Be cursed, be gone, and live in the darkness worshiping a demon with a big thorax!"

It also makes me wonder about the Orc/Elf god split. We know that one god maimed the other in a way that can only be described as To the Pain!. But I'm less familiar with that split and the story about why the "Good" god felt the need to cripple and humiliate a fellow god.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-25, 11:19 PM

Ouch. No love for the good gods.

I'd just like to point out, creation stories aside, that

1.) Kobolds, though actually pretty much oppressed by everyone, brook no quarter, and pretty much fight everyone violently for space and resources whenever the opportunity presents itself. They aren't really a peace-loving race, and Kurtulmak's clergy actually encourages exactly the opposite. That game mechanics don't back up fluff all the time (no +1 to kill gnomes) is in no way grounds for believing anything about what kobold culture believes in regards to gnomes. Mechanics and fluff rarely coincide.

2.) Orcs. Wait. Are we really suggesting that hurting an orc god is a bad thing? Orcs and their gods pretty much endorse eternal war forever against everything. I don't see how one god doing x or y changes anything about established lore about orc behavior.

3.) Drow. ZOMG, please, ick, I can hardly stand the recent, rampant revisionism regarding the drow/elf split. Not only is it eerily reminiscent of real-world anthropology (thus nixing a fair bit of the fantasy aspect of that part of the game), but it's really, INCREDIBLY BIZARRE that no one knew this was the case before. Even given eons of intervening time and deep hatred, magic is a thing, and both races are way above human intelligence at a cultural level. I find it exceedingly hard to believe that everyone just adopted revisionism and never noticed proof to the contrary (though I claim ignorance as to the finer points of the new story).

Just my thoughts.

ArcturusV

2013-09-25, 11:32 PM

Manly Man

2013-09-25, 11:38 PM

Obyriths. Just... obyriths.

Qlippoth from Pathfinder are pretty close, although I prefer how the obyriths are still demons.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-25, 11:44 PM

Hurting? No, probably not. Maiming? Probably. I mean it's DnD. You don't just "put out someone's eye and leave it a festering wound" accidentally (Outside of some special crit charts in second edition). You'd have to actually try to do something like that. Meaning he must have already beaten Gruumsh, and went "Hey... screw you!" and then maimed a defeated, helpless target. At least logically from how things work in their world.

Undue suffering against defeated foes? Sound pretty stereotypically evil.

No wonder elvish forests/holds are always falling under the sway of Demons, Corruption, etc. :smallwink:

They are mortal enemies. Short of killing a downed foe, there really isn't much more to do aside from just spanking him and getting ready for round 2 next week.

And I always thought of Corellon as Chaotic first, good second. Pretty much all the racial gods are "us first, then all that alignment bulls&%t."

Psyren

2013-09-26, 12:01 AM

Grummsh is canonically Talos, and Talos is an @$!#hole, so you'll forgive me if I shed few tears for the plight of the orc divines. And the rest of that pantheon are no better.

I already gave my opinion on Kurtulmak's "too-good-for-this-sinful-earth" hagiography.

As for the Drow - however deserved or undeserved Lolth's treatment may have been at the time of the split, it's plain to see she's a vile harpy right now just by looking at the way Menzoberranzan is run today, so even if it was all a colossal misunderstanding she's hardly doing herself any favors.

russdm

2013-09-26, 12:08 AM

Ouch. No love for the good gods.

I'd just like to point out, creation stories aside, that

1.) Kobolds, though actually pretty much oppressed by everyone, brook no quarter, and pretty much fight everyone violently for space and resources whenever the opportunity presents itself. They aren't really a peace-loving race, and Kurtulmak's clergy actually encourages exactly the opposite. That game mechanics don't back up fluff all the time (no +1 to kill gnomes) is in no way grounds for believing anything about what kobold culture believes in regards to gnomes. Mechanics and fluff rarely coincide.

Considering that every other race treats them as "adventurer's first slain enemy", I don't see their reaction that far off. Dragons view them as free labor and the other races treats as slaves(drow, orcs), as targets for starting out adventurers, or as creatures to attacked like always. Nearly every adventurer's rite of passage is killing kobolds.

Ouch. No love for the good gods.

The good gods rarely do anything suggesting that they are actually good. How many times have any of the good gods done something that would be considered good, and not relating to some other race than theirs?

Orcs pretty much have a deity about attacking others, so I don't really see them as being wrong in any way like ever.

Drow could have turned out better, but Corellon just apparently let Lolth keep them, despite the fact he could have taken them away if he actually had wanted to. There is nothing suggesting that attempting to do so would have failed.

Does Garl have any kind of story about what he did that points him in a good light? nope.

I personally like Halfling fluff the most. Out of all the races in the PHB besides humans, they are the only non-racist jerks around to be found.

Phelix-Mu

2013-09-26, 12:15 AM

I personally like Halfling fluff the most. Out of all the races in the PHB besides humans, they are the only non-racist jerks around to be found.

Inherent contradiction. Implied contradiction, sorry.

Your points are good. I just happen to disagree. Psyren's comment is fairly good.

Moreover, I think there is something to be said about gods and mythology often not being directly translatable into morality for mortals. This is not something original to the game.

Maybe I'm old school, but I find it interesting when, in addition to sympathizing with the "bad guys," the vox populi (or some segment of it) also then turns around a demonizes the "good guys."

What this dynamic should point out is that racial dynamics are fraught with subjectivism, not that one side is wrong, the other is right.

russdm

2013-09-26, 12:25 AM

Maybe I'm old school, but I find it interesting when, in addition to sympathizing with the "bad guys," the vox populi (or some segment of it) also then turns around a demonizes the "good guys."

I just demonize the douche-bags among the so-called "good guys". Elves? Superior to humans in nearly every way and yet they spend a lot of their time whining at humans about how horrible they have made the world. At least when they are not yelling at dwarves about stuff. Dwarves? Spend time yelling at elves about stuff; yell at humans about stuff, and spend a lot of time getting drunk and fighting bloody feuds over forgotten reasons.

Drow? Complete douche-bags. Goblinoids? Douche-bags. Orcs? Evil psycho douche-bags. Gnomes? Lazy prankster types who inspire to tell jokes. Kobolds? A race that gets to have its whole reason for existing to be the first baddie adventurers take down. Gnolls? Hyena douche-bags. Ogres? Douche-bags. You can pretty much call every race a douche-bag.

Seriously, the game was written from a perspective of "all elves are awesome and perfect, everyone else is trash." in my opinion. A lot of Progantist centraled morality.

Most of the races out of the PHB are actually decent.

Alignment in D&D is not some suggested concept though. Its a building block of how the system works, so if the gods fail to act according to their alignment or reasonably outside of it, then something is completely fundamentally wrong with the system. and if alignment means nothing, then why bother even having it anymore?

EvilJames

2013-09-27, 11:43 PM

Considering that every other race treats them as "adventurer's first slain enemy", I don't see their reaction that far off. Dragons view them as free labor and the other races treats as slaves(drow, orcs), as targets for starting out adventurers, or as creatures to attacked like always. Nearly every adventurer's rite of passage is killing kobolds.

The good gods rarely do anything suggesting that they are actually good. How many times have any of the good gods done something that would be considered good, and not relating to some other race than theirs?

Orcs pretty much have a deity about attacking others, so I don't really see them as being wrong in any way like ever.

Drow could have turned out better, but Corellon just apparently let Lolth keep them, despite the fact he could have taken them away if he actually had wanted to. There is nothing suggesting that attempting to do so would have failed.

Does Garl have any kind of story about what he did that points him in a good light? nope.

I personally like Halfling fluff the most. Out of all the races in the PHB besides humans, they are the only non-racist jerks around to be found.

I'm not sure what you are saying with the orcs. Their deity is one of conflict, how does that translate into them not being wrong?

I'm not familiar with the drow background you mentioned, but how can Corellon take the drow away? They were followers of Llolth, the only way to take them away is to brainwash them.

Garl doesn't have many stories about him that I'm familiar with (maybe the Golomoids count in whch case he comes out pretty good), but in the gnome version of the tale no kobolds died. Kurtlmak was just embarrassed that the awesome trap he made was set off by Garl while Kurtlmak was still in it doing the finishing touches. I could be misremembering but I believe garl even thought it was well done. He does come off as kind of a **** in that story but hardly a malicious evil bastard.

Indeed the halflings are the easiest race to get along with and will ahppily work with pretty much anybody willing to behave. I loved some of the spells thier priests got in 2nd ed. "A day in the life" turned an enemy into a 0 level halfling commoner for a day. and my favorite that I can't remember the name of exactly, "Yondalla's curse", or something like that, It turned you into a baby. It was only supposed to be used as a last resort against terrible opponents-- and it turned you into a baby. The halfling village then raised you like a halfing, or if you were something inherently dangerous, say a dragon or a troll, then you were given to the nearest lawful good church or paladin order to be raised instead.

Dwarves aren't bad. They tend to be a bit curmudgeony but most of their conflicts with elves or orcs are territorial disputes not religious. Their gods didn't even kick out the evil gods like the elven gods did. The Duergar gods are in self exile and the Derro gods ran away after stealing something.

mythmonster2

2013-09-28, 01:12 AM

Personally, I'm a fan of Changelings, especially ones like the one in the intro of the Changeling entry in Races of Eberron, who was living four or so lives at once. I've also got a soft spot for Mongrelfolk.