Lizardfolk monk build advice

[craftyRingtail]

I'm soon going to play a brand new campaign with a crazy DM, who I know will be killing characters left and right indiscriminately. He's even going so far to add limb-lost mechanics. He's also making the players build their characters solely from the core books and tomb of battle, but I believe the npcs are going to be working off whatever books the Dm looks into. (the trade-off for this is that the players are able to be taught feats from other books, as long as they meet the prerequisites). I'm going to be playing a Lizardfolk Monk who has no natural weapons, the dm said that monster levels need not be taken. I need some advice on how to go forth building my character. I know the first feat I am taking is "improved natural attack"

[Urpriest]

I'm soon going to play a brand new campaign with a crazy DM, who I know will be killing characters left and right indiscriminately. He's even going so far to add limb-lost mechanics. He's also making the players build their characters solely from the core books and tomb of battle, but I believe the npcs are going to be working off whatever books the Dm looks into. (the trade-off for this is that the players are able to be taught feats from other books, as long as they meet the prerequisites). I'm going to be playing a Lizardfolk Monk who has no natural weapons, the dm said that monster levels need not be taken. I need some advice on how to go forth building my character. I know the first feat I am taking is "improved natural attack"

If he's allowing Tome of Battle as well, have you considered being an Unarmed variant Swordsage instead? It's got most of the fluff of the Monk, but unlike a Monk it can, for example, uncontroversially use natural weapons alongside unarmed attacks in its equivalent of a flurry. Plus it's just a more solid class that will help you survive better.

"No Monster Levels" isn't really a defined term. Does this mean you don't have to take the Racial Hit Dice? Does it mean you don't suffer the Level Adjustment? Does it mean that your DM doesn't know what either of those things are?

[craftyRingtail]

Oh, well I do suffer the level adjustment, but i do not take the racial hit die. I heard that typically for things like lizardfolk, bugbears, and minotaurs have to start out by leveling up as "Humanoid". In the case of lizfolks, they have to take 2 levels of humanoid before they can take class levels. Or so I've heard.

But in the case of the sword sage thing there is a problem. There is a swordsage already in the party, and I and the dm doesn't really want repeats within the party. Not to mention we have our characters kinda locked down atm (as in the class, stats and first feat kinda thing), unfortunately there is no turning back.

[Urpriest]

Oh, well I do suffer the level adjustment, but i do not take the racial hit die. I heard that typically for things like lizardfolk, bugbears, and minotaurs have to start out by leveling up as "Humanoid". In the case of lizfolks, they have to take 2 levels of humanoid before they can take class levels. Or so I've heard.

Sort of. They're not exactly the same thing as levels. Basically, unless you've got a Monster Class (there are some in Savage Species, and some on the WotC site with slightly different rules), you have to start out with all the relevant hit dice. So if you did have to take the hit dice, you would have to start as at least a 3rd level character. But anyway, sounds like your DM is waiving that.



But in the case of the sword sage thing there is a problem. There is a swordsage already in the party, and I and the dm doesn't really want repeats within the party. Not to mention we have our characters kinda locked down atm (as in the class, stats and first feat kinda thing), unfortunately there is no turning back.

Ah ok, I hadn't realized things were locked down.

What books are actually available, by the way? You say Core Books, but different people mean different things by that. Do you mean just the PHB/DMG/MM? Do you include other content from the SRD, like the Psionics rules?

Incidentally, if the Swordsage in your party is focusing on unarmed combat (which they might not, there are lots of ways to build a swordsage) then you'll already be a repeat in character concept, which is a lot worse than being a repeat in class.

[craftyRingtail]

What books are actually available, by the way? You say Core Books, but different people mean different things by that. Do you mean just the PHB/DMG/MM? Do you include other content from the SRD, like the Psionics rules?

It's just the phb/dmg/mm, and tob. he said that the npcs will have feats and abilities from other books, but as a compromise the pc are able to ask to be taught the feat (as long as they have the capability of learning it)


Incidentally, if the Swordsage in your party is focusing on unarmed combat (which they might not, there are lots of ways to build a swordsage) then you'll already be a repeat in character concept, which is a lot worse than being a repeat in class.

Our SS is mainly playing with the magic shtuff as oposed to any of the other monk type shtuff (he's double classing with sorcerer to go jade phoenix mage)

[Urpriest]

Our SS is mainly playing with the magic shtuff as oposed to any of the other monk type shtuff (he's double classing with sorcerer to go jade phoenix mage)

In that case, if you did go with Unarmed Swordsage you guys would be very different.

But let's say you've got your Monk levels fixed. One thing you need to ask your DM is whether you can use your natural weapons alongside your flurry of blows. Technically, flurry of blows doesn't allow you to use non-Monk weapons, but it's debatable whether that means you can't use non-Monk weapons in the whole full attack, or merely whether you are restricted to Monk weapons for your normal flurry attacks, but can use whatever you want if you get extra attacks (like you do from natural weapons).

Improved Natural Attack isn't that useful at the moment, but that's ok because you don't qualify for it with your first feat anyway. Pick it up when it adds more than +2 or so average damage to your attacks.

In general, there are still a bunch of feats in Tome of Battle that you can benefit from. Superior Unarmed Strike will increase your damage, while Snap Kick will give you an extra attack. Again, those are probably both things to take later.

You can still get some benefit from dipping a couple Swordsage levels later in your build for maneuvers. Your DM should be ok with a limited thing like that.

If your DM is ok with you mixing natural attacks with your flurry of blows, Multiattack should be your first feat. Otherwise your natural attacks will miss like crazy.

[IdleMuse]

If your first level is locked in as Monk, the best thing you can do is start taking Unarmed Swordsage next level. To avoid stepping on your party members toes, try to take a different set of maneuvers from him, and different skills too. Like, if he's going for Desert Wind and Setting Sun style maneuvers and taking knowledge and movement style skills, pick stuff from Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand, and mix it up stealth and social skills. There's no reason that two characters with the same class can't be massively different in playstyle.

And I have to say, if your DM can't see that, and refuses to let you play the same class, and also refuses to let you play outside a few books while retaining access to all of them for himself, I have to suggest you ask him why, exactly. D&D is a game about having fun... and that goes for you as well as him. Layering unnecessary restrictions on you seems... unfun. Fair enough if he can come up with solid reasons, but personally I would be confused why I can't play a Lizardfolk melee unarmed swordsage in the same game as a [different race presumably] arcane-focussed swordsage, especially with such tight restrictions.

If you really HAVE to take full Monk, and can't take levels in ANY Tome of Battle classes, then the obvious advice is to boost your natural attacks as much as possible (Improved Natural Attack is a great feat you've picked in that line, there's also Superior Unarmed Strike in ToB), try to boost your attack score as much as possible, potions of Enlarge Person for instance can be useful. Ranks in tumble can get you into positions where you can try to make AoOs, but really, you have so few options as a straight core-only Monk that it's hard to give reasonable build suggestions that will put you on par with (for instance) a Jade Phoenix Mage.

Is there a Rogue in the party already? It seems like that could be an interesting niche to try and fill otherwise, at least from the melee sneak attack perspective. You can probably qualify for Assassin (try to get DM to handwave Evil requirement, as per the online Avenger version), and maybe dip into Shadowdancer. Assassin would give you Sneak Attack (which can be enhanced with Martial Study: Assassin's Stance once you reason lvl 12), and some useful arcane casting. That's the only core-only idea I can really come up with. Even dipping Swordsage or Warblade helps you out a fair bit.

[craftyRingtail]

If your DM is ok with you mixing natural attacks with your flurry of blows, Multiattack should be your first feat. Otherwise your natural attacks will miss like crazy.

Define natural attacks. Because the flavor thing of my char is that he was born without claws and sharp teeth, which removes his natural weapons/attacks. But i see that there is one pre-req that i missed, so InP is out for now

[craftyRingtail]

Is there a Rogue in the party already? It seems like that could be an interesting niche to try and fill otherwise, at least from the melee sneak attack perspective. You can probably qualify for Assassin (try to get DM to handwave Evil requirement, as per the online Avenger version), and maybe dip into Shadowdancer. Assassin would give you Sneak Attack (which can be enhanced with Martial Study: Assassin's Stance once you reason lvl 12), and some useful arcane casting. That's the only core-only idea I can really come up with. Even dipping Swordsage or Warblade helps you out a fair bit.

That would be an interesting way to go about things

[craftyRingtail]

My SS friend suggested to take SS and focus on Stone Dragon style around lv. 10 or so

[Urpriest]

Define natural attacks. Because the flavor thing of my char is that he was born without claws and sharp teeth, which removes his natural weapons/attacks. But i see that there is one pre-req that i missed, so InP is out for now

Why are you playing a Lizardfolk, then?

Look, if your DM is running an ultra-lethal game, that doesn't mean you can't roleplay. But it does mean that you probably shouldn't roleplay a cripple. It's kind of cliche, and it doesn't do you any favors mechanically. Lizardfolk is worth its +1 level adjustment in part because it gets those natural attacks...without them, it's probably not worth giving up a level just for +5 AC and slightly better than normal ability scores. And while "I learned how to fight with my fists because I was born without claws" at least fits narratively, it's silly enough that a "serious business" DM who's all about lopping limbs off and being gritty is probably going to go out of his way to kill your character just to prove that you can't get away with that kind of weakness in his world.

That said, I get that this is a preexisting character, and that these are things you can't change. It does mean that there isn't a lot that makes sense for you to take at this level, though. Maybe you could start trying to build up the feats for a Shadowdancer dip for Hide in Plain Sight, if you really want that, though Assassin gets a comparable if weaker ability a bit later.

[craftyRingtail]

Why are you playing a Lizardfolk, then?

Well, I made the character before the dm had the plans that he has now. I made him because of the roleplaying capabilities that he does provide given his backstory malarky. And i did that because the DM does really favor roleplaying as opposed to combat, but he also said that if combat does happen it will be unforgiving as hell. Which is why i wanted to have an narratively engaging character for all the RP heavy stuff, but also be capable of not dying for the fighting shtuff, and what I came up with seemed to fit the criteria, which the dm did support. But advice on growing would help to not die.

[CyberThread]

While your choice is not as bad as taking a bard with 3 con for roleplay reasons, I would suggest you compromise with your DM and ask for the natural attack to be switch with something else like a tail slap, or feat proficiently to use a tail weapon. :)

Then again, plenty easy to make something without using natural attacks, and shame on UR-priest the writer of the monstrous handbook, for not mentioning that lizard folk, do not have to take any racial dice. A level one lizardfolk, has an ECL of one, just one. If you look up stats on a dwarf, it will just have 1d8 also, but that does not mean dwarfs have two classes.


Take a careful look at the minatour that you showed as an example.

Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.


Now look at the lizard's stats it gives in monster manual III. It has nothing like that , meaning you don't have to worry about it :)

[craftyRingtail]

While your choice is not as bad as taking a bard with 3 con for roleplay reasons, I would suggest you compromise with your DM and ask for the natural attack to be switch with something else like a tail slap, or feat proficiently to use a tail weapon. :)

well, my dm did say that i could use my tail as another apposable limb, which he said gives me bonus to grappling (see prehensile tail)

[CyberThread]

an the HD?

[avr]

Stone Dragon is probably the worst and least monk-like thing you could focus on as a swordsage. The difficulty of using it is not so much the effects of the maneuvers, more the restriction that you have to be standing on the ground (not in a building, not on a ship or swimming, not flying, etc). Setting Sun is more monk-like, won't be anything like the Jade Phoenix Mage, and will be more effective. Diamond Mind is another the JPM won't be able to continue developing which may suit you well.

[craftyRingtail]

an the HD?

Waived, out of dm discretion, luckily enough

[craftyRingtail]

Stone Dragon is probably the worst and least monk-like thing you could focus on as a swordsage. The difficulty of using it is not so much the effects of the maneuvers, more the restriction that you have to be standing on the ground (not in a building, not on a ship or swimming, not flying, etc). Setting Sun is more monk-like, won't be anything like the Jade Phoenix Mage, and will be more effective. Diamond Mind is another the JPM won't be able to continue developing which may suit you well.

After doing some more research, you're right, stone dragon is made of bluh, I should go for setting sun.

[Urpriest]

Now look at the lizard's stats it gives in monster manual III. It has nothing like that , meaning you don't have to worry about it :)

Are you talking about Poison Dusk Lizardfolk? While I agree that they're awesome, you probably should clarify what you're talking about.

[ZhanStrider]

After doing some more research, you're right, stone dragon is made of bluh, I should go for setting sun.

SD is one of the only martial disciplines that has unarmed strike as a discipline weapon.

[Urpriest]

SD is one of the only martial disciplines that has unarmed strike as a discipline weapon.

Note that this doesn't matter a whole lot. (If you're unfamiliar with ToB, discipline weapons are required for certain feats, and for a couple swordsage class features, but not for the maneuvers themselves).

Anyway, you might consider some Warblade levels. While they won't increase your Unarmed Strike damage dice, they'll give you more BAB, higher hit dice, and a faster way to recharge your maneuvers.

Since you'll have lots of attacks even without natural weapons, you'll want to have ways of moving up to someone and still making a full attack. Tiger Claw has a lot of those sorts of abilities, so you should consider making that one of the schools you focus on.