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Zelkon
2013-09-18, 08:45 PM
Hello everyone, this is my rogue fix. I’m quite happy with it for a high powered, high magic, tier 3 game. Some houserules everyone should know about:
Combat advantage is a condition stolen from 4e. It replaces losing Dex bonus to AC. It grants all attacks against the creature granting combat advantage a +2 bonus to the attack roll. People gain combat advantage by flanking and in any situation in which a target would normally be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.
Full Attacking is a standard action.
Many skills have been rolled together, and they now rely on whatever ability score is most applicable to their use.
UMD will be nerfed so that it’s not longer problematic.

Anyway, I’m looking for some feedback so that I know how balanced this guy is. I would appreciate any help. I'm especially looking at high levels, which presented some logistical challenges. Thanks for your help!


The Rogue
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|1|+0|+2|+2|Weapon Finesse, Trapfinding, Sly Flourish, Sneak Attack 1d6

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Evasion, Rogue’s Teleport 10ft, Network

3rd|+3|1|+3|+3|Invisibility, Sneak Attack 2d6, Trap Sense

4th|+4|1|+4|+4|Uncanny Dodge, Navigate the Night

5th|+5|1|+4|+4| See Invisibility, Rogue’s Teleport 15ft, Sneak Attack 3d6, Rogue's Senses 25ft.

6th|+6/1|+2|+5|+5| Special Ability, Acrobat, Improved Network

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+5|Assassinate, Improved Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack 4d6

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+6|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Evasion

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+6| Rogue’s Teleport 35ft, Greater Invisibility, Special Ability, Sneak Attack 5d6

10th|10/+5|+3|+7|+7| Improved Assassinate, Smooth Criminal, Rogue's Senses 50ft.

11th|11/+6/1|+3|+7|+7| Sneak Attack 6d6

12th|12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+8| Swift Rogue’s Teleport, Special Ability

13th|13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+8|Rogue’s Jaunt, Sneak Attack 7d6

14th|14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+9|Rogue's Magic

15th|15/10/+5|+5|+9|+9| Superior Invisibility, Sneak Attack 8d6, Rogue's Senes 75ft, Special Ability

16th|16/11/+6/1|+5|+10|+10| Worldwide Network, Shadow Walk

17th|17/12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Escape, Sneak Attack 9d6

18th|18/13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Special Ability

19th|19/14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Sneak Attack 10d6, Strike of Darkness

20th|+20/15/10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Unstoppable Assassination, The Trick, Rogue's Senses
[/table]

Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
Appraise, Acrobatics, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Script, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Stealth, Perception, Thevery, Insight, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Weapon Finesse (Ex): A rogue may use Dexterity in place of weapon attack and damage rolls.

Trapfinding (Ex): A rogue is treated as though he has maximum ranks in thevery for all intents and purposes. He gains +5 bonus on any skill checks made to search for, study, disarm, arm, or otherwise interact with a trap.

Sneak Attack (Ex): Once per turn, when a rogue has Combat Advantage against a target, he deals 1d6 extra damage against them. This damage increases by 1d6 at level 3 and every other level thereafter. A rogue may not make a Sneak Attack against a creature who cannot take critical hits.

Sly Flourish (Ex): A rogue may make an extra attack in addition to any melee attacks he makes, including Attacks of Opportunity, or as a swift action. This attack is made at his full base attack bonus, and deals damage equal to his charisma modifier. At 4th level, the damage increases to 1d6+charisma modifier and it may be used on ranged attacks (but only in conjunction with a full attack, not as an AoO or swift action). At 8th level, a rogue gains combat advantage against any foe hit by his Sly Flourish. At 12th level, a rogue dazes any enemy he hits with his Sly Flourish, and it counts as a Sneak Attack for the purposes of rogue Special Ability. At 16th level, a rogue may apply his Sneak Attack damage every time he uses Sly Flourish (this does not count against his 1/turn limit). At 20th level, a rogue may deliver assassinations with Sly Flourish (but not Unstoppable Assassinations or Strikes of Darkness), and may be used as an immediate action.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a rogue makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Rogue’s Teleport (Su): At 2nd level or higher, as a move action, a rogue may teleport a number of feet in any direction as shown in the table. He must have line of sight to the spot where he is teleporting.

Network (Ex): A rogue can easily establish a network of informants in a city to provide him with crucial information. Every day a rogue of at least second level is in a city and has time to establish a connection, he can find someone up to his level willing to make skill checks with no negative effects of failure, craft a mundane item with monetary compensation equal to the price of the time, cast a spell (with a maximum level of half the level they can cast) with no material cost (or with compensation), or otherwise provide help at no disadvantage to them save for time. In addition, when he receives this ability, the rogue establishes a contact equal to him in level, preferably another adventurer or similar profession, who can provide him with information he might need from outside town.

Invisibility (Sp): At 3rd level and above, a rogue may turn invisible a number of times per day equal to half his Charisma modifier, as the spell of the same name, except the duration is one minute. His caster level is equal to half his rogue level.

Trap Sense (Ex): When the rogue reaches 3rd level, all members of his party have evasion against traps as long as the rogue can take full-round actions. In addition, the rogue and his party members gain a bonus to all saves and AC against traps equal 1/3th the rogue’s class level.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead.

Navigate the Night (Ex): The rogue is skilled at unconventional movement, whether it be through high trees or on top of city roofs. A rogue of 4th level or higher gains a +5 bonus to any skills made to jump or climb. A rogue may also treat vertical squares as normal squares for a single turn. This allows a rogue to jump from wall to wall, scale vertical surfaces, dash across walls to cross pits, and more.

See Invisibility (Sp): A rogue of 5th level or higher can see invisible creatures, as the See Invisibility spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to his Dexterity modifier plus his Charisma modifier.

Rogue's Senses (Ex): A rogue of 5th level or higher has darkvsion out to 25ft, or their darkvsion increases in range by 25ft. At 10th level, this improves to 50ft and he also has blindsight up to this range (or his blindsight increases by 50ft). At 15th level, this improves to 75ft and he also has tremmorsesne up to this range (or his tremmorsense increeses by 75ft). At 20th level, this improves to 100ft and he acts as if he always has a True Seeing spell activated.

Acrobat (Ex): A rogue of 6th level or higher gains the ability to perform incredible acrobatics under pressure without breaking a sweat. The rogue gains the ability to fly up to his speed (poor maneuverability). However, he must end this movement on a valid square that he can normally occupy. The rogue may also engage flying enemies in this way; he may perform a grapple check at the end of his flight when adjacent to a flying enemy, and should he succeed, the target becomes grappled. A rogue may not pin a flying character.

Special Abilities (Ex):On attaining 6th level, and at every three levels thereafter (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.
Crippling Strike (Ex)

A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.
Defensive Roll (Ex)

The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
Improved Evasion (Ex)

This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Opportunist (Ex)

Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
Skill Mastery

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
Slippery Mind (Ex)

This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
Feat

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

Improved Network (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue gains a number of 1st level agents equal to his charisma modifier. For every two first level agents a rogue has, he gains one second level agent, and for every two second level agents he has, he gains a third level agent, and so on. These agents follow the rogue's every order, and he may communicate with each of them once per day via a sending spell. He may specify the race and class of these agents, but the DM determines all of their other features.

Assassinate (Ex): A rogue of at least 7th level may, 1/day, assassinate a victim who is unaware of them. He may make an Assassination attempt against them as a standard action. He makes a single attack at his highest Base Attack Bonus and, should he hit, he deals damage as if he had hit with a sneak attack and the target must make a DC (10+Half Rogue Class Level+Charisma Modifier) Fortitude saving throw or die. He may make an additional Assassination attempt per day at 10th level, and one more additional attempt every third level thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), plus one extra at 20th level (for a total of 5 attempts per day).

Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): A rogue of 7th level or higher may target any creature with a sneak attack, regardless of immunities to critical hits.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 8th level, the rogue gains Improved Evasion. Improved Evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

Greater Invisibility (Sp): When using his Invisibility ability, a rogue of 9th level or higher acts as though he had cast Greater Invisibility instead of normal Invisibility, and he may use the ability a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier. The duration does not change from 1 minute.

Improved Assassination (Ex): A rogue of at least 10th level may now assassinate targets that are aware of him.

Smooth Criminal (Ex): A rogue of at least 10th level may take 10 on all skill checks with no increase in time and under duress. He may take ten on checks to unlock doors, chests, and other locked objects without it looking like he is picking a lock, even under close examination (DC 30 Perception Check to notice). He no longer needs thieves tools to unlock locks without a penalty. A rogue may slowly slip into a disguise that does not require an outfit change over the course of 1d6+1 turns without anyone save those who are looking directly at him noticing. He may pass objects to adjacent creatures without a chance of anyone noticing. He gains a +5 bonus on bluff checks against creatures that do not trust him. He may, as long as no one is watching him closely, attack without anyone noticing that it was him if he wishes. While in any sort of urban terrain, a rogue may use the hide skill even when observed. He may hide with cover provided by other creatures. A rogue may spend actions simultaneously or in the middle of other actions (Spending a standard action in the middle of a move action, etc.). Finally, a rogue may take 20 using the thievery skill under the same conditions a normal character can take 10.

Swift Rogue’s Teleport (Su): A rogue of at least 12th level can use his Rogue’s Teleport as a swift action (but only once per round). The maximum distance he can teleport as a swift action is 30ft.

Rogue’s Jaunt (Su): A rogue of at least 13th level may appear along the route of his Rogue’s Teleport. As a single swift action, a rogue may teleport up to 50 feet, reappear with time to use a standard action, and teleport the rest of the 50 feet. Alternatively, a rogue may teleport up to 30ft as a swift action, take a standard action, and teleport back to his starting position.

Rogue's Magic (Sp): A rogue of 14th level is learned in the ways of illusory magic and has the ability to duplicate some spells. He may cast Silent Image, Ventriloquism, and Disguise Self at-will, Illusory Wall, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, and Illusory Script 3/day each, and Mislead and Seeming 1/day each.

Superior Invisibility (Sp): A rogue of 15th level may use Superior Invisibility instead of Greater Invisibility when using his Invisibility ability. Neither the duration nor number of uses per day increases.

Worldwide Network (Ex, Su): A rogue of 16th level has connections all over the world. His number of 1st level agents now equals his Charisma modifier times his Dexterity modifier times 10. The rogue may not have agents of a higher level than 10th. A rogue may gain information about any city in the world from these agents via sending spells (it is assumed he knows which ones are close to/in the city he wants to know about).

Shadow Walk (Sp): A rogue of at least 16th level may use Dimension Door as a move action a number of times per day equal to half his rogue level. He becomes invisible as if he had used the spell Superior Invisibility at the end of this teleportation for one turn. He may also use Shadow Walk, as the spell, at will, but only on himself and up to four other willing participants.

Escape (Su): A rogue of at least 17th level may prime an escape as a full round action a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. This escape may be contingent on anything the rogue wishes it to be (that he can sense). When the contingency happens, the rogue immediately teleports up to 500ft in any direction (may be predefined, random, or in a direction related to the place in which the contingency was activated, such as "away from the footsteps") without expending an action. In addition, he is invisible (as if he had used the Superior Invisibility spell) until the end of his next turn.

Strike of Darkness (Su): A rogue of 19th level may make an assassination attempt on any creature he is familiar with anywhere on the same plane. However, if the target survies the assassination attempt, they learn the exact location of the rogue, and are considered familiar with it for the purpose of teleportation. This works exactly like a normal assassination attempt, save for the range. A Strike of Darkness cannot be an Unstoppable Assassination. A rogue may use this ability one 1/day.

Unstoppable Assassination (Ex): A rogue of 20th level has learned to assassinate his victims so perfectly that they cannot resist his attempt. Once per day, a rogue may attempt an Unstoppable Assassination, which instantly kills the target should he hit him. This is otherwise exactly like other assassination attempts, except you expend your attempt on a miss. Additionally, if he scores a critical hit on an assassination attempt, it instantly kills the target. This is a death effect.

The Trick (Ex): Once per day, a rogue of at least 20th level may pull of a trick so extraordinary that it bends the laws of physics. A rogue may, as a free action, heal any temporary negative effects upon himself (disease, poison, ageing effects, damage, ability damage) and give himself fast healing 5 for a number of minutes equal to his rogue level, or force all dice rolled in one round to be rolled twice (with the rogue choosing which outcome to take), or recharge all of his limited use (per day, once every X minutes, etc) abilities, or undo the events of the last round with only those he wishes remembering the events that transpired in the “missing” round, or rip a hole in the material plane, allowing for transport as the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift (CL equal to Class Level).

The Mentalist
2013-09-18, 10:10 PM
Full Attacking is a standard action.
Big power boost to the rogue



The Rogue
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|1|+0|+2|+2|Weapon Finesse, Trapfinding, Sly Flourish I, Sneak Attack 1d6

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Evasion, Rogue’s Teleport 10ft, Network

3rd|+3|1|+3|+3|Invisibility, Sneak Attack 2d6, Trap Sense

4th|+4|1|+4|+4|Uncanny Dodge, Navigate the Night, Sly Flourish II

5th|+5|1|+4|+4|Greater Invisibility, See Invisibility, Rogue’s Teleport 15ft, Sneak Attack 3d6

6th|+6/1|+2|+5|+5| Special Ability, Acrobat, Improved Network

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+5|Assassinate 1/day, Improved Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack 4d6

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+6|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Evasion, Sly Flourish III

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+6|Assassinate 2/day, Rogue’s Teleport 35ft, Special Ability, Sneak Attack 5d6

10th|10/+5|+3|+7|+7| Improved Assassinate, Smooth Criminal

11th|11/+6/1|+3|+7|+7|Assassinate 3/day, Shadow Evocation, Sneak Attack 6d6

12th|12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+8| Swift Rogue’s Teleport, Special Ability, Sly Flourish IV

13th|13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+8|Rogue’s Jaunt, Assassinate 4/day Sneak Attack 7d6

14th|14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+9| Magical Aptitude, Superior Invisibility

15th|15/10/+5|+5|+9|+9| Assassinate 5/day, Greater Shadow Evocation, Sneak Attack 8d6

16th|16/11/+6/1|+5|+10|+10| Worldwide Network, Shadow Walk, Sly Flourish V

17th|17/12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Escape, Rogue’s Senses, Assassinate 6/day, Sneak Attack 9d6

18th|18/13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Real Shadow Evocation

19th|19/14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Assassinate 7/day, Sneak Attack 10d6, Strike of Darkness

20th|+20/15/10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Unstoppable Assassination, The Trick, Sly Flourish VI
[/table]

This table is a lot to read, maybe put progressions and increased uses/day in the text and leave them out of the table, this is a lot to sift through.

Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
Appraise, Acrobatics, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Script, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Stealth, Perception, Thevery, Insight, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier
An Int optimized Rogue has all class skills, okay.


Weapon Finesse (Ex): A rogue may use Dexterity in place of weapon attack and damage rolls.

I like adding damage to this. Pretty standard, nice change.


Trapfinding (Ex): A rogue is treated as though he has maximum ranks in thevery for all intents and purposes. He gains +5 bonus on any skill checks made to search for, study, disarm, arm, or otherwise interact with a trap.

Yep, more pretty good standard stuff.

Sneak Attack (Ex): Whenever a rogue has Combat Advantage against a target, he deals 1d6 extra damage against them. This damage increases by 1d6 at level 3 and every other level thereafter. A rogue may not make a Sneak Attack against a creature who cannot take critical hits.

Sneak attack remains unchanged.


Sly Flourish (Ex): A rogue may make an extra attack in addition to any melee attacks he makes, including Attacks of Opportunity, or as a swift action. This attack is made at his full base attack bonus, and deals damage equal to his charisma modifier. At 4th level, the damage increases to 1d6+charisma modifier and it may be used on ranged attacks (but only in conjunction with a full attack). At 8th level, a rogue gains combat advantage against any foe hit by his Sly Flourish. At 12th level, a rogue dazes any enemy he hits with his Sly Flourish, and it counts as a Sneak Attack for the purposes of rogue Special Ability. At 16th level, a rogue may apply his Sneak Attack damage every time you use Sly Flourish. At 20th level, you may perform a Sly Flourish on any enemy within 50ft, it is an automatic hit, and may be used as an opportunity attack by itself (threatening all 50ft around the rogue.

Starting at 8th level the Rogue always makes sneak attack. Starting at 12 one opponent is stun-locked. Starting at 16th the rogue gets an extra attack at the capstone the rogue becomes a monster of battlefield control.

8th seems to take some of the specialness out of Sneak attack for me but that may be a personal thing, it also invalidates any other character (with the possible exception of an ubercharger) as a damage dealing character. (TOB classes will have nowhere near your output getting a full attack of sneak attacks every round)

12th entirely invalidates certain kinds of encounters (i.e. Any combat against a single opponent.) This needs a save at the very least

16th is cool.

20 seems kind of out of place, and borderline broken honestly, even for a T3 game, you're going to hit, sneak attack, and stun everything that moves in 50ft basically. (Because of course you've taken Combat Reflexes with something like that) This would be mostly fixed with a save but you're still doing a lot of damage with every AoO and that again, strictly better than ToB (which is the martial T3)




Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a rogue makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

We're back to standard.

Rogue’s Teleport (Su): At 2nd level or higher, as a move action, a rogue may teleport a number of feet in any direction as shown in the table once per round.

Walls are no longer an issue. At all.


Network (Ex): A rogue can easily establish a network of informants in a city to provide him with crucial information. Every day a rogue of at least second level is in a city and has time to establish a connection, he can find someone up to his level willing to make skill checks with no chances of failure, craft a mundane item with monetary compensation equal to the costs of components, cast a spell (with a maximum level of half the level they can cast) with no material cost (or with compensation), or otherwise provide help at no disadvantage to them save for time. In addition, when he receives this ability, the rogue establishes a contact equal to him in level, preferably another adventurer or similar profession, who can provide him with information he might need from outside town.

I'm not very clear on what this ability does, it sounds to me like the rogue gets free spellcasting, at-cost access to crafts, and I'm not sure what the last one is whenever he's in town.

Invisibility (Sp): At 3rd level and above, a rogue may turn invisible a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity modifier, as the spell of the same name. His caster level is equal to his rogue level.

Out of combat stealth becomes a non-issue unless you're specifically making watchmen rogue breakers.

Trap Sense (Ex): When the rogue reaches 3rd level, all members of his party have evasion against traps as long as the rogue can take full-round actions. In addition, the rogue and his party members gain a bonus to all saves and AC against traps equal 1/3th the rogue’s class level.

Traps become a non-issue.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead.

Standard stuff.

Navigate the Night (Ex): The rogue is skilled at unconventional movement, whether it be through high trees or on top of city roofs. A rogue of 4th level or higher gains a +5 bonus to any skills made to jump or climb. A rogue may also treat vertical squares as normal squares for a single turn. This allows a rogue to jump from wall to wall, scale vertical surfaces, dash across walls to cross pits, and more.

I like this, walls are even less of an issue though.

Greater Invisibility (Sp): When using his Invisibility ability, a rogue of 5th level or higher acts as though he had cast Greater Invisibility instead of normal Invisibility.

Does the duration reduce as well, if it does, do I have the option to use standard Invis's greater duration instead of the Greater Invis effect. This also means that the rogue is taking less than half damage for the rest of his career, because if he's clever he's dropping Invisibility at the start of every combat to gain full concealment. Again, unless you're making encounters rogue-killers this is a POWERFUL buff to be getting so soon.

See Invisibility (Sp): A rogue of 5th level or higher can see invisible creatures, as the See Invisibility spell.

So Rogues counter other rogues.

Acrobat (Ex): A rogue of 6th level or higher gains the ability to perform incredible acrobatics under pressure without breaking a sweat. The rogue gains the ability to fly up to his speed (poor maneuverability). However, he must end this movement on a valid square that he can normally occupy. The rogue may also engage flying enemies in this way; he may perform a grapple check at the end of his flight when adjacent to a flying enemy, and should he succeed, the target becomes grappled. A rogue may not pin a flying character.

Why can't he pin?

Improved Network (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue that succeeds on a DC 25+level of target Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Bluff check when making contacts in a city may have one informant per point of charisma (separate checks for each) that will cast one spell of up to the maximum level he/she can cast, participate in combat at a safe range, devote a significant portion of time to the rogue, or actively seek information that the rogue needs, among other significant deeds. He also gains a number of subordinates equal to twice his charisma modifier. These subordinates are 1st level; however, for every two 1st level subordinates you have, you get one 2nd level subordinate, and for every two 2nd level subordinates, you get a 3rd level subordinate and so on. These subordinates are determined by the DM, although you can make specifications on who you’d like to seek out. Subordinates will travel anywhere you ask them to, gathering information, fast talking nobles, sneaking into parties, and whatever else the rogue can think of. They will put their reputation and livelihood, if they have one, at risk, but are reluctant to take more than a small amount of personal harm. Each subordinate gains the ability to cast Sending 1/day to inform you of their progress, and you gain the ability to cast Sending 1/day to each of them, responding or giving a new message.

So this is Leadership Lite. It allows him to do more than just about anyone else with in-town down time.

Assassinate (Ex): A rogue of at least 7th level may, 1/day, assassinate a victim who is unaware of them. He may make an Assassination attempt against them. He makes a single attack at his highest Base Attack Bonus and, should he hit, the target must make a DC (10+Half Rogue Class Level+Charisma Modifier) Fortitude saving throw or die. He may make an additional Assassination attempt per day at 9th level, and one more additional attempt every other level thereafter.


Save or Die with a decent DC, facilitated by lots of Invisibility.

Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): A rogue of 7th level or higher may target any creature with a sneak attack, regardless of immunities to critical hits.


Nice touch. But now it becomes impossible to stop the Rogue's immense damage output.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Standard.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 8th level, the rogue gains Improved Evasion. Improved Evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

Same as previous

Improved Assassination (Ex): A rogue of at least 10th level may now assassinate targets that are aware of him, and does not expend an assassination attempt on a failed assassination.

One opponent per day is going to drop unless he passes a Fortitude save, and that number is climbing quickly. Be aware of what easy access to save or dies means.

Smooth Criminal (Ex): A rogue of at least 10th level may take 10 on all checks with no increase in time and under duress. He may take ten on checks to unlock doors, chests, and other locked objects without it looking like he is picking a lock, even under close examination (DC 30 Perception Check to notice). He no longer needs thieves tools to unlock locks without a penalty. A rogue may slowly slip into a disguise that does not require an outfit change over the course of 1d6+1 turns without anyone save those who are looking directly at him noticing. He may pass objects to adjacent creatures without a chance of anyone noticing. He gains a +5 bonus on bluff checks. He may, as long as no one is watching him closely, attack without anyone noticing that it was him if he wishes. While in any sort of urban terrain, a rogue may use the hide skill even when observed. He may hide with cover provided by other creatures. A rogue may spend actions simultaneously or in the middle of other actions (Spending a standard action in the middle of a move action, etc.). Finally, a rogue may take 20 using the thievery skill under the same conditions a normal character can take 10.

Nothing jumping out at me as broken here, though in an intrigue game this does invalidate a lot of encounters.

Shadow Evocation (Sp): A rogue of at least 11th level may make a Shadow Evocation, as the spell, a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. The DC is based on his Charisma modifier.

This just jumps out of nowhere. I fail to see where it's needed but it's not overpowered or anything, as a matter of fact if the Rogue is casting an Evocation instead of Sneak Attacking at this point he's losing damage in most cases.

Swift Rogue’s Teleport (Su): A rogue of at least 12th level can use his Rogue’s Teleport as a swift action (but still only once per round).

Rogue never takes an attack of opportunity again.

Rogue’s Jaunt (Su): A rogue of at least 13th level may appear along the route of his Rogue’s Teleport. As a single swift action, a rogue may teleport up to fifty feet, reappear with time to use a standard action, and teleport the rest of the fifty feet. Alternatively, a rogue may teleport up to fifty feet as a swift action, take a standard action, and teleport back to his starting position.

Rogue definitely never takes AoOs again. Most counters to a rogue have been entirely lost by this point.

Magical Aptitude (Sp): A rogue of at least 14th level may mimic spells that he has seen used. As a full round action, he may make a DC 20+(Spell Level x Number of times this day you have used this ability) Concentration check and Use Magic Device check. He may cast any spell on the Bard list that he has seen in practice as if he was a bard of half his level. This means a 14th level rogue may, with the proper ability checks, may use any third level bard spell at a caster level of seven. A rogue must expend 10gp worth of magical components per level of the spell used.

Rogue has very good access to out of combat healing.
And no language barriers
Unlimited Prestidigitation and Mage Hand
+10 to Disguise checks
Nearly unlimited access to Unseen Servant (more powerful than it sounds)
Nearly unlimited access to Silent Image (same as previous)
Decent Battlefield control
Decent access to Alter Self (discussed Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/895676) and other places
Decent access to Silence to sprinkle on top of his invisibility
Occasional Access to Glibness, (Discussed Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177961) and elsewhere
Better mobility through Phantom Steed
And several other nice benefits.


Superior Invisibility (Sp): A rogue of 14th level may use Superior Invisibility instead of Greater Invisibility when using his Invisibility ability.

I would have to go find Superior Invisibility again but it's basically more of the wiping out Rogue counters I would guess.

Greater Shadow Evocation (Sp): A rogue of 15th level may use Greater Shadow Evocation instead of Shadow Evocation for their Shadow Evocation ability.

This gives access to Contingency abuse by some readings, not too terrible with just a Bard's spell list but worth noting.

Worldwide Network (Ex, Su): A rogue of 16th level has such renown and so many connections that he may, if given a chance to go to a social area in a city, he may be treated as a native for purposes of knowledge about the area. He may also collect information on any populated or frequently visited area if given one hour in a populated area. He also may commune with someone in any populated area he is aware of up to 5/day, as if he used a Sending spell. In addition, all of his first level subordinates are upgraded to fifth level, and for every two fifth level subordinates you have, you gain one sixth level subordinate, and for ever two sixth level subordinates you have, you gain one seventh level subordinate, and so on.

This has stopped being Leadership Lite and become... well I need more clarity on the basic effect before I know what it really is.

Shadow Walk (Sp): A rogue of at least 16th level may use Dimension Door as a move action a number of times per day equal to half his rogue level. He becomes invisible as if he had used the spell Superior Invisibility at the end of this teleportation for one turn. He may also use Shadow Walk, as the spell, at will.

More combat teleportation, no worse than before (less good in some cases) and a Teleport Lite/Save or Die with a Will Save this time. And this one's at will

Escape (Su): A rogue of at least 17th level may prime an escape as a full round action a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. This escape may be contingent on anything the rogue wishes it to be (that he can sense). When the contingency happens, the rogue immediately teleports up to 500ft in any direction (may be predefined, random, or in a direction related to the place in which the contingency was activated) without expending an action. In addition, he is invisible (as if he had used the Superior Invisibility spell) until the end of his next turn.

Is this basically a Greater Celerity Contingency?

Rogue’s Senses (Ex): At 17th level, a rogue gains blindsight, darkvision, and tremorsense out to 100ft.

Rogues counter other rogues some more.

Real Shadow Evocation (Sp): A rogue’s Shadow Evocation ability may mimic any evocation spell of up to 8th level, and it is considered 100% real (it cannot change from this value).

Definite Contingency stuff by this level, blasting equivalent to a caster

Strike of Darkness (Su): A rogue may make an assassination attempt on any creature he is familiar with anywhere on the same plane. This works exactly like a normal assassination attempt, save for the range. A Strike of Darkness cannot be an Unstoppable Assassination.

Scry or Die in the extreme. Once you become familiar with someone (like the BBEG) just target all your spare assassinations against them until they drop from the inevitable nat 1

Unstoppable Assassination (Ex): A rogue of 20th level has learned to assassinate his victims so perfectly that they cannot resist his attempt. Once per day, a rogue may attempt an Unstoppable Assassination, which instantly kills the target should he hit him. This is otherwise exactly like other assassination attempts, except you expend your attempt on a miss. Additionally, if he scores a critical hit on an assassination attempt, it instantly kills the target.

No save, just die. Once a day. This does invalidate certain types of encounters even more than the stun-locking previous did. Does this at least count as a Death effect so Death Ward will stop it?

The Trick (Ex): Once per day, a rogue of at least 20th level may pull of a trick so extraordinary that it bends the laws of physics. A rogue may, as a free action, heal any temporary negative effects upon himself (disease, poison, ageing effects, damage, ability damage) and give himself fast healing 5 for a number of minutes equal to his rogue level, force all dice rolled in one round to be rolled twice (with the rogue choosing which outcome to take), recharge all of his limited use (per day, once every X minutes, etc) abilities, undo the events of the last round with only those he wishes remembering the events that transpired in the “missing” round, or rip a hole in the material plane, allowing for transport as the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift (CL equal to Class Level).

This just seems out of place and really quite powerful. A solid capstone though, I think it does too many things. Also... as a 1/day action does "recharging all limited use abilities effect this as well?

My comments in bold. Seems to break Tier 2 to me.

anacalgion
2013-09-18, 10:22 PM
My comments in bold. Seems to break Tier 2 to me.

Weeeeell, except it doesn't have anything super game breaking. Granted it gets at will teleporting really fast and a bunch of other nice things but beyond the crazy battlefield control you mentioned with sly flourish, it seems like a strong but not overly strong tier 3. I think the thing that stood out to me the most that I didn't like was duplicating bard spells. They're called bard spells because they're for the bard. Feels too magical for a rogue, even in a high magic setting. Other than that, looks pretty good to me.

nonsi
2013-09-18, 11:51 PM
Whatever this class is, the name 'Rogue' seems inappropriate to me.
Most people (yours truly included) associate the name 'Rogue' with subtlety, trickery and solid get-by tools.
This one's opening line is "I own your ass" (where 'you' could be anyone not totally prepared a mile away, armed to the teeth with active buffs and magical gear).
If this is the Rogue in your campaign, I dread to see what the Fighter looks like.

The main problem with such high powered games is too much time gets wasted on numbers.

One thing I'm curious about is what kind of challenges merit such metamorphosis to the Rogue.

The Mentalist
2013-09-19, 12:06 AM
One thing I'm curious about is what kind of challenges merit such metamorphosis to the Rogue.

I would like to see those campaign notes too.

ddude987
2013-09-19, 05:16 PM
Finally found time in my day to post on this. I wanted to since last night :smallbiggrin: take what I say with a grain of salt, but I loved how your ranger came out and here is my 2 cents on the rogue.



UMD will be nerfed so that it’s not longer problematic.

What is problematic about UMD in your campaign? (Not that I am trying to critique your houserules) just curious.



Hit Die: 1d6

Maybe this is a personal opinion, but I think the rogue, being very skill based, should have a lower BaB and would leave it at 3/4. I would, however, bump the hit die to 1d8. Rogues often need to get into flanking melee range to get off their sneak attack and if they enemy doesn't die or has 10' reach then the extra 20 or so hp by level 20 you get from the d6 to d8 hit die really can help.



Class Skills:
Appraise, Acrobatics, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Script, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Stealth, Perception, Thevery, Insight, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

With so many skills rolled together perhaps 8+int is to many? Also why does the rogue know spellcraft and how to identify spells. General flavorwise rogues don't laboriously study magic so spellcraft as a class skill seems out of place.



Sly Flourish[/B] (Ex): A rogue may make an extra attack in addition to any melee attacks he makes, including Attacks of Opportunity, or as a swift action. This attack is made at his full base attack bonus, and deals damage equal to his charisma modifier. At 4th level, the damage increases to 1d6+charisma modifier and it may be used on ranged attacks (but only in conjunction with a full attack). At 8th level, a rogue gains combat advantage against any foe hit by his Sly Flourish. At 12th level, a rogue dazes any enemy he hits with his Sly Flourish, and it counts as a Sneak Attack for the purposes of rogue Special Ability. At 16th level, a rogue may apply his Sneak Attack damage every time you use Sly Flourish. At 20th level, you may perform a Sly Flourish on any enemy within 50ft, it is an automatic hit, and may be used as an opportunity attack by itself (threatening all 50ft around the rogue.

Not sure what you meant by the bolded parts. Do you mean to omit the or? Also do you mean bonus damage equal to cha mod or the whole attack just does his cha mod? If it is just cha mod, how does a negative cha mod function? Also you say you can apply sneak attack to this attack, but does that override the 30ft limit of sneak attack?



Network [/B](Ex): A rogue can easily establish a network of informants in a city to provide him with crucial information. Every day a rogue of at least second level is in a city and has time to establish a connection, he can find someone up to his level willing to make skill checks with no chances of failure, craft a mundane item with monetary compensation equal to the costs of components, cast a spell (with a maximum level of half the level they can cast) with no material cost (or with compensation), or otherwise provide help at no disadvantage to them save for time. In addition, when the rogue receives this ability, he establishes a contact equal to him in level, preferably another adventurer or similar profession, who can provide him with information he might need from outside town.

First bolded sentence is just poorly worded and I can't make to much sense of it. The other bold I was confused about for a bit until I switched them. Lastly, this contact is statted by the DM or the rogue player or is that irrelevant?



Invisibility (Sp): At 3rd level and above, a rogue may turn invisible a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity modifier, as the spell of the same name. His caster level is equal to his rogue level.
This is the same level wizards gain invisibility. I caution you to give this to the rogue at the same level as any casters receiving invisibility at this level will feel cheated in a way.



Greater Invisibility (Sp): When using his Invisibility ability, a rogue of 5th level or higher acts as though he had cast Greater Invisibility instead of normal Invisibility.

Not even casters have this ability at this level. This feels extremely early to be given this.



See Invisibility (Sp): A rogue of 5th level or higher can see invisible creatures, as the See Invisibility spell.
same problem I had with greater invis. Also how many enemies are going to be fully invisible at this early level?



Improved Network (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue that succeeds on a DC 25+level of target Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Bluff check when making contacts in a city may have one informant per point of charisma (separate checks for each) that will cast one spell of up to the maximum level he/she can cast, participate in combat at a safe range, devote a significant portion of time to the rogue, or actively seek information that the rogue needs, among other significant deeds. He also gains a number of subordinates equal to twice his charisma modifier. These subordinates are 1st level; however, for every two 1st level subordinates you have, you get one 2nd level subordinate, and for every two 2nd level subordinates, you get a 3rd level subordinate and so on. These subordinates are determined by the DM, although you can make specifications on who you’d like to seek out. Subordinates will travel anywhere you ask them to, gathering information, fast talking nobles, sneaking into parties, and whatever else the rogue can think of. They will put their reputation and livelihood, if they have one, at risk, but are reluctant to take more than a small amount of personal harm. Each subordinate gains the ability to cast Sending 1/day to inform you of their progress, and you gain the ability to cast Sending 1/day to each of them, responding or giving a new message.

Bolded was, again, confusing. Is the DC to make contacts 25+level? Also what if they just have racial hit dice, are those considered levels?



Assassinate (Ex): A rogue of at least 7th level may, 1/day, assassinate a victim who is unaware of them. He may make an Assassination attempt against them. He makes a single attack at his highest Base Attack Bonus and, should he hit, the target must make a DC (10+Half Rogue Class Level+Charisma Modifier) Fortitude saving throw or die. He may make an additional Assassination attempt per day at 9th level, and one more additional attempt every other level thereafter.
Why not just allow the rogue to coup de grace someone who is unaware of him once per day?



Smooth Criminal (Ex):A rogue of at least 10th level may take 10 on all checks with no increase in time and under duress.
So the rogue can take 10 on opposed checks like bull rushes, trips, etc? Doesn't seem to be a problem, I am just checking.



Shadow Evocation (Sp): A rogue of at least 11th level may make a Shadow Evocation, as the spell, a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. The DC is based on his Charisma modifier.
I don't understand thematically where this came from. Also do you mean cast a shadow evocation or are the words synonymous?



Rogue’s Jaunt (Su): A rogue of at least 13th level may appear along the route of his Rogue’s Teleport. As a single swift action, a rogue may teleport up to fifty feet, reappear with time to use a standard action, and teleport the rest of the fifty feet. Alternatively, a rogue may teleport up to fifty feet as a swift action, take a standard action, and teleport back to his starting position.
Teleport on the run. Its like a feat but cooler. Also do you mean for him to use any standard action or just be able attack?



Magical Aptitude (Sp): A rogue of at least 14th level may mimic spells that he has seen used. As a full round action, he may make a DC 20+(Spell Level x Number of times this day you have used this ability) Concentration check and Use Magic Device check. He may cast any spell on the Bard list that he has seen in practice as if he was a bard of half his level. This means a 14th level rogue may, with the proper ability checks, may use any third level bard spell at a caster level of seven. A rogue must expend 10gp worth of magical components per level of the spell used.
This seems a little to excessive. I know its a high magic campaign but any spell on the bards list? Even if it is a lower level.



Rogue’s Senses (Ex): At 17th level, a rogue gains blindsight, darkvision, and tremorsense out to 100ft.
Perhaps have these scale starting at a lower level.



The Trick (Ex): Once per day, a rogue of at least 20th level may pull of a trick so extraordinary that it bends the laws of physics. A rogue may, as a free action, heal any temporary negative effects upon himself (disease, poison, ageing effects, damage, ability damage) and give himself fast healing 5 for a number of minutes equal to his rogue level, force all dice rolled in one round to be rolled twice (with the rogue choosing which outcome to take), recharge all of his limited use (per day, once every X minutes, etc) abilities, undo the events of the last round with only those he wishes remembering the events that transpired in the “missing” round, or rip a hole in the material plane, allowing for transport as the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift (CL equal to Class Level).
Just a little confused with all the "and"s and "or"s thrown together. What exactly is the layout of things he gets with this?

The Oni
2013-09-19, 08:02 PM
This is not a rogue, this is a ninja with five free levels of Shadowdancer who is also James Bond. This guy can do melee, sneaking, fake magic, AND be a skillmonkey. Also assassinations. Why.

Zelkon
2013-09-19, 08:37 PM
This is not a rogue, this is a ninja with five free levels of Shadowdancer who is also James Bond. This guy can do melee, sneaking, fake magic, AND be a skillmonkey. Also assassinations. Why.

Well, I have a big post forthcoming which fixes most of this, mostly the fake magic part. It's taking the bard's place as the jack of all trades, and the bard is becoming a full caster (enchantment specialist). As I read over this baby, I realize how much of a monstrosity it is. Anyway, I'll be giving it a bit more focus with my forthcoming updates. But why shouldn't a rogue sneak, melee, and be a skill monkey? A beguiler (which is sort of my benchmark for the rogue, which I definitely overshot) can do skills, sneaking, and a good deal of other magic effects, so I don't think the sheer number of abilities are the problem.

ddude987
2013-09-19, 09:12 PM
Well, I have a big post forthcoming which fixes most of this, mostly the fake magic part. It's taking the bard's place as the jack of all trades, and the bard is becoming a full caster (enchantment specialist). As I read over this baby, I realize how much of a monstrosity it is. Anyway, I'll be giving it a bit more focus with my forthcoming updates. But why shouldn't a rogue sneak, melee, and be a skill monkey? A beguiler (which is sort of my benchmark for the rogue, which I definitely overshot) can do skills, sneaking, and a good deal of other magic effects, so I don't think the sheer number of abilities are the problem.

I think the number of abilities is okay. It was the excessive gift of magical spells that could make all the rogues problems go away, some of which were given to early for enemies to have, and even to early for the dedicated caster, that blew the entire homebrew out of propotion.
I believe the rogue should be good at sneaking and skills, and comparable in terms of martial combat. Some of the problems also lye where once sneak attack is relatively automatic its just a big bonus damage and doesn't take anything special to set up.
Furthermore, several abilities were very poorly worded. Some of them were confusing to read and others seemed to do not quite exactly what you intended. Anyways, I look forward to the re-rework, whenever that comes.

ben-zayb
2013-09-20, 06:15 AM
Funny thing I noticed is that a Sorcerer doesn't get Greater Shadow Evocation until 16th level, and only at a daily rate of 3 + 1 per four points of Charisma above +7 (level 8th slot).

And then this class gets it Cha per day at 15th level.

Some point are already brouhht up. Some abilities appear out of nowhere without rhyme or reason (fluff explanation; e, g. Is this guy so interconnected with the shadowplane, shadow genies, shades?)

Zelkon
2013-09-20, 04:57 PM
First of all, thanks everyone for the replies. I hadn't realized my rogue was such a destroyer of worlds. I did make a couple of typos; for example, Strike of Darkness was only supposed to be once/day.

My campaign is a semi-mass combat game, so he would fit the "enemy political leader assassination" role. As is, I agree that it's probably too good...



This table is a lot to read, maybe put progressions and increased uses/day in the text and leave them out of the table, this is a lot to sift through.
No problem, thanks for letting me know.


An Int optimized Rogue has all class skills, okay. Hmmm. Wasn't counting on that. With a reduced skill list, maybe I need to look at how many points everything gets...


Starting at 8th level the Rogue always makes sneak attack. Starting at 12 one opponent is stun-locked. Starting at 16th the rogue gets an extra attack at the capstone the rogue becomes a monster of battlefield control.

8th seems to take some of the specialness out of Sneak attack for me but that may be a personal thing, it also invalidates any other character (with the possible exception of an ubercharger) as a damage dealing character. (TOB classes will have nowhere near your output getting a full attack of sneak attacks every round)

Maybe I should allow sneak attack damage to be applied only 1/round, except in relation to Sly Flourish.

12th entirely invalidates certain kinds of encounters (i.e. Any combat against a single opponent.) This needs a save at the very least.
I thought that would slow down game-play a bit too much...I guess another, less signifigant condition would work better.

16th is cool.

TY

20 seems kind of out of place, and borderline broken honestly, even for a T3 game, you're going to hit, sneak attack, and stun everything that moves in 50ft basically. (Because of course you've taken Combat Reflexes with something like that) This would be mostly fixed with a save but you're still doing a lot of damage with every AoO and that again, strictly better than ToB (which is the martial T3)
Agreed, I was at a loss for ideas and I wanted something sufficiently capstonish. Back to the drawing board.

Comments in bold for this one.


Walls are no longer an issue.
Would "Rogue's must have line of sight to their destination" fix this?


I'm not very clear on what this ability does, it sounds to me like the rogue gets free spellcasting, at-cost access to crafts, and I'm not sure what the last one is whenever he's in town. He's supposed to be able to make connections in a short time whenever he's in a town, and I was trying to specify what these connections could bring. That last one just means that they'll show the party around town or otherwise expend a good deal of time to help the rogue. I'll add a "Once per town" clause to them to prevent abuse.


Out of combat stealth becomes a non-issue unless you're specifically making watchmen rogue breakers.
Is the sheer number of uses breaking? Or is it the rogue's total stealth abilities. Should I shorten the duration? (CL=half rogue level?)


Traps become a non-issue. I'm actually fine with that.

Does the duration reduce as well, if it does, do I have the option to use standard Invis's greater duration instead of the Greater Invis effect. This also means that the rogue is taking less than half damage for the rest of his career, because if he's clever he's dropping Invisibility at the start of every combat to gain full concealment. Again, unless you're making encounters rogue-killers this is a POWERFUL buff to be getting so soon.
I might make duration standard across all the "invisibility abilities," quite possibly equal to or lower to the duration of greater invisibility.


So Rogues counter other rogues.
I might move this down a couple levels, but yeah, thats the idea.


Why can't he pin?
Pinning to me, seems to require a ground to pin onto, which would not be available against a flying creature.


So this is Leadership Lite. It allows him to do more than just about anyone else with in-town down time.
Well, I’m rewriting some other classes (like the bard), but yeah, I’m going to nerf it a bit (it screws the economy a bit).


Nice touch. But now it becomes impossible to stop the Rogue's immense damage output.
I might add some other way to avoid this, plus some of the above solutions apply to this too.


One opponent per day is going to drop unless he passes a Fortitude save, and that number is climbing quickly. Be aware of what easy access to save or dies means.
Well, casters have a good deal of SoDing potential, so I don’t see this as a huge, problem, but I’ll slow the progression.


Nothing jumping out at me as broken here, though in an intrigue game this does invalidate a lot of encounters.
I think this would be a boon to the rogue’s flavor, although I’ll nerf it slightly so it doesn’t totally annihilate social encounters.

This just jumps out of nowhere. I fail to see where it's needed but it's not overpowered or anything, as a matter of fact if the Rogue is casting an Evocation instead of Sneak Attacking at this point he's losing damage in most cases.
I felt it was appropriately thematic to use shadows to conjure up effects, but I do agree that it’s useless mechanically.


Rogue never takes an attack of opportunity again.
By 12th level, that’s not a giant deal. I’m perfectly fine with this as is.


Rogue definitely never takes AoOs again. Most counters to a rogue have been entirely lost by this point.
I’ll nerf the length of the teleport to allow an opponent to catch up with him next turn.


Rogue has very good access to out of combat healing.
And no language barriers
Unlimited Prestidigitation and Mage Hand
+10 to Disguise checks
Nearly unlimited access to Unseen Servant (more powerful than it sounds)
Nearly unlimited access to Silent Image (same as previous)
Decent Battlefield control
Decent access to Alter Self (discussed Here and other places
Decent access to Silence to sprinkle on top of his invisibility
Occasional Access to Glibness, (Discussed Here and elsewhere
Better mobility through Phantom Steed
And several other nice benefits.
This ability was embarrassingly short-sighted. I think I might allow them an extremely limited list of mostly thematic SLAs.


I would have to go find Superior Invisibility again but it's basically more of the wiping out Rogue counters I would guess.
I think that the rogue has the right to wipe out all counters 1/day, and as is, he can do it more than, so I’ll nerf duration and per/day, but not level.

This has stopped being Leadership Lite and become... well I need more clarity on the basic effect before I know what it really is.
I felt like the wording had fallen apart by here, too, but hopefully I can fix that (as well as make this less broken).

More combat teleportation, no worse than before (less good in some cases) and a Teleport Lite/Save or Die with a Will Save this time. And this one's at will
Didn’t realize the SoD potential of the spell. I’ll limit it to friendly use, or maybe just personal use.

Is this basically a Greater Celerity Contingency?It lost its flavor in translation from idea to ability. It was meant to be limited to escape but I got carried away.

Rogues counter other rogues some more.
I feel like that’s appropriate. A rogue knows his own tricks.

Scry or Die in the extreme. Once you become familiar with someone (like the BBEG) just target all your spare assassinations against them until they drop from the inevitable nat 1Wow, I completely forgot the 1/day clause. The ability is insane as written. I’ll also allow the creature to become aware of the rogue’s location (so they can teleport in and show him a piece of their mind).

No save, just die. Once a day. This does invalidate certain types of encounters even more than the stun-locking previous did. Does this at least count as a Death effect so Death Ward will stop it?
Yeah, it’s a death effect. I’ll clarify.

This just seems out of place and really quite powerful. A solid capstone though, I think it does too many things. Also... as a 1/day action does "recharging all limited use abilities effect this as well?It’s based on the capstone of a 4e epic destiny (Deadly Trickster, from the PHB), so I thought it was thematic enough. Also, yeah, it shouldn’t recharge itself. Poor proofreading on my part.

Weeeeell, except it doesn't have anything super game breaking. Granted it gets at will teleporting really fast and a bunch of other nice things but beyond the crazy battlefield control you mentioned with sly flourish, it seems like a strong but not overly strong tier 3. I think the thing that stood out to me the most that I didn't like was duplicating bard spells. They're called bard spells because they're for the bard. Feels too magical for a rogue, even in a high magic setting. Other than that, looks pretty good to me. Thanks. I’m trying to address the “too magic” criticisms.

Whatever this class is, the name 'Rogue' seems inappropriate to me.
Most people (yours truly included) associate the name 'Rogue' with subtlety, trickery and solid get-by tools.
This one's opening line is "I own your ass" (where 'you' could be anyone not totally prepared a mile away, armed to the teeth with active buffs and magical gear).
If this is the Rogue in your campaign, I dread to see what the Fighter looks like.
The fighter is the warblade (which is getting a bit retooled but not nearly this much), so that was kind of supposed to be a balancing point. I see now how much I overshot that. I’ll try to make it less “own your ass” and more subtle, but the rogue to me has always been the tricky bastard that has the tools to deal with every situation in some ways, so I tried to do that. I went way overboard on the damage, though, so I can tone that down.

What is problematic about UMD in your campaign? (Not that I am trying to critique your houserules) just curious.It’s just too much of a boon when you take into account how powerful magic is. It’s not terrible, just better than all other skills if you have the right chassis behind it (which the rogue does).

Maybe this is a personal opinion, but I think the rogue, being very skill based, should have a lower BaB and would leave it at 3/4. I would, however, bump the hit die to 1d8. Rogues often need to get into flanking melee range to get off their sneak attack and if they enemy doesn't die or has 10' reach then the extra 20 or so hp by level 20 you get from the d6 to d8 hit die really can help. I’ve always been a fan of the glass cannon, and I wanted the rogue to reliably hit his enemy, so that’s my justification.

With so many skills rolled together perhaps 8+int is to many? Also why does the rogue know spellcraft and how to identify spells. General flavorwise rogues don't laboriously study magic so spellcraft as a class skill seems out of place. Yeah, I’ll probably drop it to 6+int (while others who have 6+int will be dropped and so on). I felt spellcraft was something a rogue would need to know to have counters to it ready, plus it fits well with UMD.

Not sure what you meant by the bolded parts. Do you mean to omit the or? Also do you mean bonus damage equal to cha mod or the whole attack just does his cha mod? If it is just cha mod, how does a negative cha mod function? Also you say you can apply sneak attack to this attack, but does that override the 30ft limit of sneak attack? A rogue may use a sly flourish in conjunction with any attack, or if he’s not making an attack (if he wants to double move, pick a lock, etc), a swift action. It’s just his Cha mod, and a negative modifier does no damage. Also, my sneak attack has no 30ft limit.

First bolded sentence is just poorly worded and I can't make too much sense of it. The other bold I was confused about for a bit until I switched them. Lastly, this contact is statted by the DM or the rogue player or is that irrelevant?I agree on the poor wording. It’s supposed to mean that, if a rogue tries to seek out a contact in a city, he can find one who’s willing to do various things for him, including make skill checks that do not have negative consequences of failure. Will change (along with the rest of network, because it’s crap).

This is the same level wizards gain invisibility. I caution you to give this to the rogue at the same level as any casters receiving invisibility at this level will feel cheated in a way. Casters are sufficiently changed so that this is not a problem. I’ll be using mostly school specialized spont casters (like beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage, etc).

Not even casters have this ability at this level. This feels extremely early to be given this. You’re totally right about this. I’ll fix this.

same problem I had with greater invis. Also how many enemies are going to be fully invisible at this early level? Agreed. Will fix similarly.

Why not just allow the rogue to coup de grace someone who is unaware of him once per day? Casters get SoD very soon after this, I was just allowing the rogue to get a one up on them. I’m slowing the progression, too, so it shouldn’t be very broken (as my replies to The Mentalist say).

So the rogue can take 10 on opposed checks like bull rushes, trips, etc? Doesn't seem to be a problem, I am just checking. Huh. Never thought about that. I don’t think that’s what I was going for, so I’ll clarify.

I don't understand thematically where this came from. Also do you mean cast a shadow evocation or are the words synonymous? Rogues and shadows seemed to go together, and I wanted some magic, but in hindsight, this was an absolutely terrible decision.

Teleport on the run. Its like a feat but cooler. Also do you mean for him to use any standard action or just be able attack?Any action seems appropriate, like unlocking a door and teleporting away from the trap within.

Perhaps have these scale starting at a lower level. I really like this idea. I shall.

Just a little confused with all the "and"s and "or"s thrown together. What exactly is the layout of things he gets with this? You get one per use (healing, recharging powers, undoing events, or travel).

Funny thing I noticed is that a Sorcerer doesn't get Greater Shadow Evocation until 16th level, and only at a daily rate of 3 + 1 per four points of Charisma above +7 (level 8th slot).

And then this class gets it Cha per day at 15th level.
This is a product of rearranging the level some abilities were gained.


NOTE: Changes have not been made yet, but I have my list.

Zelkon
2013-09-20, 10:30 PM
OK, I've made my changes. Some levels are now thoroughly dead now though, so I could use some ideas for those. Also, on my first draft, I completely forgot about special abilities. I've added those, too.

Zelkon
2013-09-22, 11:33 AM
Well, I'll bump this one last time in hopes of someone seeing the changes.

The Mentalist
2013-09-22, 12:51 PM
Well, I'll bump this one last time in hopes of someone seeing the changes.

Will return to re-evaluate once I'm moved in to the new house.

Carl
2013-09-22, 01:52 PM
Fairly basic and exactly what you've already been told and ignored.

This isn;t a rouge fix.

It's a vanilla rouge with whole sections of the best and/or most important features of the Shadowdancer and Assassin thrown in.

As a high tier 3 or above base class that's designed to represent such an Assassin/Shadowdancer hybrid it's quite good. But it's not a rouge.

A rouge shouldn't have any of the teleport, invisibility, spellcasting, or death attacks thrown in. Take that away and this has a couple of really minor things differentiating it from an actual core rouge, because at the end of the day you haven't done much work on what the rouge is. i.e. a mundane sly-guy/thief/general worker in shady places.

Now as i said, as a base class Shadowdancer/Assassin hybrid it's quite nice as it's an assassin with all the rouge prerequisite's, plus a few of the extra's an assassin might want whilst adding to their existing assassin-y stuff at the cost of assassin spellcasting, plus it has superior versions of the shadowdancers admittedly weak teleporting and invisibility stuff, plus the really important supporting spellcasting options. Plus those have all been designed for synergies better with the assassin and rouge elements than the default shadowdancer could bring.

Morph Bark would be better for a more exact idea of it's tier though.

p.s. just because casters get SoD doesn't mean that makes it ok. SoD spells are part of the root causes of why casters are so very high powered. What tends to keep things like the dread necromancer et al from going into T2+ is that they don't combined that with the same level of defences a basic wizard or sorc so easily gets. That doesn't mean an encounter that plays to their defences won't elevate them to T2 or above easily.

Zelkon
2013-09-22, 02:32 PM
Fairly basic and exactly what you've already been told and ignored.

This isn;t a rouge fix.

It's a vanilla rouge with whole sections of the best and/or most important features of the Shadowdancer and Assassin thrown in.

As a high tier 3 or above base class that's designed to represent such an Assassin/Shadowdancer hybrid it's quite good. But it's not a rouge.

A rouge shouldn't have any of the teleport, invisibility, spellcasting, or death attacks thrown in. Take that away and this has a couple of really minor things differentiating it from an actual core rouge, because at the end of the day you haven't done much work on what the rouge is. i.e. a mundane sly-guy/thief/general worker in shady places.

Now as i said, as a base class Shadowdancer/Assassin hybrid it's quite nice as it's an assassin with all the rouge prerequisite's, plus a few of the extra's an assassin might want whilst adding to their existing assassin-y stuff at the cost of assassin spellcasting, plus it has superior versions of the shadowdancers admittedly weak teleporting and invisibility stuff, plus the really important supporting spellcasting options. Plus those have all been designed for synergies better with the assassin and rouge elements than the default shadowdancer could bring.

Morph Bark would be better for a more exact idea of it's tier though.

p.s. just because casters get SoD doesn't mean that makes it ok. SoD spells are part of the root causes of why casters are so very high powered. What tends to keep things like the dread necromancer et al from going into T2+ is that they don't combined that with the same level of defences a basic wizard or sorc so easily gets. That doesn't mean an encounter that plays to their defences won't elevate them to T2 or above easily.

It's important to note that most tier 4, 5, and 6 classes remain in my world as NPC classes. So, ye old shady back ally dealer is still going to have some rogue powers, but PCs are going to go above and beyond that to a truly supernatural level. So, that's my interpretation of the rogue. To me, the rogue is an Assassin and Shadowdancer, especially in a high magic setting.
@SoD, it's not even that great of an ability against most creatures. When you're putting out a ton of damage every round, the ability to kill a creature will save you a turn, two at most. The DC's going to be a tad subpar anyway. It's annoying when used against players and bosses, but everything in-between is fine.

ben-zayb
2013-09-23, 08:08 PM
It's important to note that most tier 4, 5, and 6 classes remain in my world as NPC classes. So, ye old shady back ally dealer is still going to have some rogue powers, but PCs are going to go above and beyond that to a truly supernatural level. So, that's my interpretation of the rogue. To me, the rogue is an Assassin and Shadowdancer, especially in a high magic setting.
@SoD, it's not even that great of an ability against most creatures. When you're putting out a ton of damage every round, the ability to kill a creature will save you a turn, two at most. The DC's going to be a tad subpar anyway. It's annoying when used against players and bosses, but everything in-between is fine.

I, for one, don't really mind if shadowporting in the same veins as Shadow Hand maneuvers (as long as they're limited as closely), but I'm of the minority in this view most likely.

The thing about this class being made as a "rogue fix" for your own homebrew world doesn't necessary make it a "rogue fix" for what the playgrounders view of "rogues" in general. It's probably be better to claim it's an "Alternate" Rogue, or something. This class actually has NeoSeraphim's Darkstalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12524294) (which is also supposedly a Rogue fix, but sort of not) kind of vibe, if Network is not taken into account.

vasharanpaladin
2013-09-23, 08:32 PM
It's important to note that most tier 4, 5, and 6 classes remain in my world as NPC classes.

So with the rogue presented on the SRD being tier 3, why is this "fix" necessary?

ddude987
2013-09-23, 09:06 PM
So with the rogue presented on the SRD being tier 3, why is this "fix" necessary?

1. The rogue on the SRD is not tier 3 (Unless you can explain how it is)
2. This rogue was made with a high magic campaign and so gets abilities to help with this

Zelkon
2013-09-23, 09:20 PM
So with the rogue presented on the SRD being tier 3, why is this "fix" necessary?

The rogue is a solid, mid tier 4. I like my classes as high tier 3s.

The Mentalist
2013-09-24, 01:08 PM
Sly Flourish (Ex): A rogue may make an extra attack in addition to any melee attacks he makes, including Attacks of Opportunity, or as a swift action. This attack is made at his full base attack bonus, and deals damage equal to his charisma modifier. At 4th level, the damage increases to 1d6+charisma modifier and it may be used on ranged attacks (but only in conjunction with a full attack, not as an AoO or swift action). At 8th level, a rogue gains combat advantage against any foe hit by his Sly Flourish. At 12th level, a rogue dazes any enemy he hits with his Sly Flourish, and it counts as a Sneak Attack for the purposes of rogue Special Ability. At 16th level, a rogue may apply his Sneak Attack damage every time he uses Sly Flourish (this does not count against his 1/turn limit). At 20th level, a rogue may deliver assassinations with Sly Flourish (but not Unstoppable Assassinations or Strikes of Darkness), and may be used as an immediate action.

Good update.


Rogue’s Teleport (Su): At 2nd level or higher, as a move action, a rogue may teleport a number of feet in any direction as shown in the table once per round. He must have line of sight to the spot where he is teleporting.

I don't think the 1/round is needed here, if they get extra move actions let them use them


Network (Ex):

Much better worded, quite nice.

Invisibility (Sp)

Significantly better.


Rogue's Senses (Ex): A rogue of 5th level or higher has darkvsion out to 25ft, or their darkvsion increases in range by 25ft. At 10th level, this improves to 50ft and he also has blindsight up to this range (or his blindsight increases by 50ft). At 15th level, this improves to 75ft and he also has tremorsesne up to this range (or his tremorsense increeses by 75ft). At 20th level, this improves to 100ft and he acts as if he always has a True Seeing spell activated.

Better scaling.


Improved Network

Sound ability. Avoids some of the worst of Leadership

Assassinate (Ex):

Scaling is much better, though less needed now that the worst offenses of it are 1/day. What action is this though or can a 20th level character dump all five of these in a single round?


Greater Invisibility (Sp): When using his Invisibility ability, a rogue of 9th level or higher acts as though he had cast Greater Invisibility instead of normal Invisibility, and he may use the ability a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier. The duration does not change from 1 minute.

Again, better.

Smooth Criminal

All seems fine, though ALL skill checks seems to be a bit dangerous.


Rogue's Magic (Sp): A rogue of 14th level is learned in the ways of illusory magic and has the ability to duplicate some spells. He may cast Silent Image, Ventriloquism, and Disguise Self at-will, Illusory Wall, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, and Illusory Script 3/day each, and Mislead and Seeming 1/day each.

Much less dangerous spell list. I feel it needs some Locate/Obscure object though, just because it would fit a Smuggler very nicely.



Worldwide Network (Ex, Su):

That's an awful lot of agents... It would depend on your game if that's balanced or not.


Escape (Su):

Much better. It would be good to close distance against an enemy too.


Strike of Darkness (Su)

There's still no way to respond to this and that seems somewhat awkward. I really can see my players holding themselves up in a cave somewhere and SoDing the Dragon once (twice) a day until it drops inevitably.

Unstoppable Assassination (Ex): Additionally, if he scores a critical hit on an assassination attempt, it instantly kills the target.

The line I left, doesn't an assassination instantly kill the target on a failed save? Why is this line there?

The Trick (Ex): Once per day, a rogue of at least 20th level may pull of a trick so extraordinary that it bends the laws of physics. A rogue may, as a free action, heal any temporary negative effects upon himself (disease, poison, ageing effects, damage, ability damage) and give himself fast healing 5 for a number of minutes equal to his rogue level,

or force all dice rolled in one round to be rolled twice (with the rogue choosing which outcome to take),

or recharge all of his limited use (per day, once every X minutes, etc) abilities,

or undo the events of the last round with only those he wishes remembering the events that transpired in the “missing” round,

or rip a hole in the material plane, allowing for transport as the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift (CL equal to Class Level).


This needs to be spaced out in a way similar to that so that you can more clearly read it.



Also, on Trapfinding (which I forgot to comment on)

"A rogue is treated as though he has maximum ranks in thevery for all intents and purposes. "

Does this mean he doesn't need to take the skill to use it?

Zelkon
2013-09-24, 02:13 PM
Thanks for your feedback, first of all. Glad to see the improvements were good.


I don't think the 1/round is needed here, if they get extra move actions let them use them I was just taking into account some possible abuse with the swift action version, but I'll just move the offensive line to that ability.

Scaling is much better, though less needed now that the worst offenses of it are 1/day. What action is this though or can a 20th level character dump all five of these in a single round? Oops, supposed to be a standard action.

All seems fine, though ALL skill checks seems to be a bit dangerous. How 'bout Dex, Str, and Cha skills?

Much less dangerous spell list. I feel it needs some Locate/Obscure object though, just because it would fit a Smuggler very nicely.
Sounds good.

That's an awful lot of agents... It would depend on your game if that's balanced or not They're not supposed to be used in combat; just to gather information and do stuff the rogue doesn't have time to. I might edit it a bit to make it a bit less OP, but right now none of my ideas are very elegant.

There's still no way to respond to this and that seems somewhat awkward. I really can see my players holding themselves up in a cave somewhere and SoDing the Dragon once (twice) a day until it drops inevitably. I meant to add a clause that the creature immediately knows your location if you "Strike of Darkness" them. Thanks for reminding me.

The line I left, doesn't an assassination instantly kill the target on a failed save? Why is this line there? I meant a critical hit on the attack roll, which is required to make an assassination.

ddude987
2013-09-24, 02:18 PM
How 'bout Dex, Str, and Cha skills?


Why not just skills on his skill list? Or maybe the rogue can chose a certain number of skills.

A couple things I noticed. Firstly, you have a few numbers on the table without a + in front of them, wasn't sure if that was on purpose.
More importantly, you have special ability on the table twice but not more than that. Is that supposed to be as written from PHB special ability and should it be on the table more than twice?

Zelkon
2013-09-24, 02:47 PM
Why not just skills on his skill list? Or maybe the rogue can chose a certain number of skills.

A couple things I noticed. Firstly, you have a few numbers on the table without a + in front of them, wasn't sure if that was on purpose.
More importantly, you have special ability on the table twice but not more than that. Is that supposed to be as written from PHB special ability and should it be on the table more than twice?

Absolutely forgot about that until recently; I think I added it to the class description, although I forgot to fill in the table.

Zelkon
2013-09-25, 06:01 PM
OK, made all the fixes. Does anyone have an idea for an 18th level ability? It's kinda sparse up there and there should be a reward for taking so many levels in a single class.

ben-zayb
2013-09-28, 05:37 AM
I was just taking into account some possible abuse with the swift action version, but I'll just move the offensive line to that ability.
Actually, there IS a potential abuse with 2 move action + 1 swift action teleportation abilities at will. Namely, the Shadow Pounce ability. With its current state, one could even argue that with Rogue's Jaunt counting as two separate instances of teleportation, this Rogue would be able to make a grand total of 4 full attacks in a turn. A possible fix would be to explicitly call out that such abilities that is being triggered by teleportation effects only may activate once per round.

OK, made all the fixes. Does anyone have an idea for an 18th level ability? It's kinda sparse up there and there should be a reward for taking so many levels in a single class.
This spot, however, seems to be a good spot to place a Shadow Pounce effect. You could improve Rogue's jaunt such that, in between travel, the rogue will be able to make a full-attack action, then move on with his teleport. Kinda like an extreme teleported spring attack.

Zelkon
2013-09-28, 07:53 AM
Actually, there IS a potential abuse with 2 move action + 1 swift action teleportation abilities at will. Namely, the Shadow Pounce ability. With its current state, one could even argue that with Rogue's Jaunt counting as two separate instances of teleportation, this Rogue would be able to make a grand total of 4 full attacks in a turn. A possible fix would be to explicitly call out that such abilities that is being triggered by teleportation effects only may activate once per round.

This spot, however, seems to be a good spot to place a Shadow Pounce effect. You could improve Rogue's jaunt such that, in between travel, the rogue will be able to make a full-attack action, then move on with his teleport. Kinda like an extreme teleported spring attack.

Hmm...I'll toy around with that. Thanks.