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Hexa_Regina
2006-12-26, 05:45 AM
I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed on these forums before, but an interesting character interaction in my real-time gaming group got me thinking. In the core WOTC rules, Humans and almost every other sentient race can cross-breed to some degree...except apparently dwarves. Is there a reason for this or is it just an oversight?

Obviously, dwarves being heavily tradition and family oriented, a dwarf-human couple would face certain challenges in the dwarven community as would the potential offspring of such a mating, but are half-dwarven children biologically possible given the existing rules and information in the core WOTC sourcebooks? I tend to to think they must be since humans are genetically compatable with almost everything else. So, I think I might toy with the idea of making a home-brew half-dwarf race.

What do you guys think? Is it plausible? And if it is plausible, what do you think a half-dwarf character would be like?

Necomancer
2006-12-26, 05:59 AM
Half-dwarves don't exist and honestly? Theres no real reason they shouldn't besides having no real niche amonst the races. half-orcs exist as the str based race, and half-elves...Eh, I think they mostly exist because they were one of the original races and continue to be so. People just like half-elves and theres really no place for half-dwarves since the concept isn't popular enough flavor wise and they have no niche to fill.

If you want to play one it would be easy enough. Simply say you're a half breed flavor wise and use either human or dwarven stats. I think there are stats for a half-dwarf species out there but I don't know where and have no desire to go looking all over the net for them. I think they're called mules.

The Glyphstone
2006-12-26, 06:17 AM
Didn't one of the old setting have half-dwarves? They were sterile....called Muls or something?

endoperez
2006-12-26, 06:20 AM
There are few half-dwarves. Muls of Athas, the Dark Sun campaign setting, are half-dwarf half-human crossbreeds and bigger than either the parent race. As tall as humans, as heavily build as dwarves, often pretty stupid and slow. They are bred for use as slaves or gladiators.

Fizban
2006-12-26, 06:21 AM
Half Elves exist because of the classic Elf+Human love Cliche.
Half-Orcs exist because there needs to be a PC dumb strong guy race.

Dwarves really don't seem all that popular in my board experiance, and all the dwarf fluff says they're firm traditionalists, bound to clan and etc.

So baisically: no reason there shouldn't be a Half-Human/Half-Dwarf, but they would probly be increadibly rare. I see it as most likely a result of dwarf orphans raised by humans (or maybe elves since they're longer lived Edit: make that gnomes, good god elves live too long) and thus without the cultural background to inhibit them.

Tanget half-race comments: the comment on humans breeding with just about anything just fixed all those random elf/orc gnome/ogre and etc things: only humans and really magical stuff can crossbreed.
Also: anyone ever considered the idea that instead of getting a half-something you instead get one or the other with just slightly mixed figures. So elf+human equals elf or human, with slightly different ears and build, and etc.

danielf
2006-12-26, 06:25 AM
i think that half-dwarves must be a cool race hehehe

amanodel
2006-12-26, 07:11 AM
Half-dwarf would be middle hight between, facial hair between, body hair between the two happy parents, in my imagination. They could use either human or dwarf attribute modifiers. But it certainly shouldn't be a psionic race.


On another note, I tried to think about why those mongrel races exist.

Half-elves exist becouse Tolkien said that charming rangers attract 1d4 elf girls, Will save DC 20 to negate the effect. It just got somehow left out from the ranger class abilities. Must be an error in the printing process. Elves are beautiful to humans, of course they want to do them. I can't see any reasons on the elfs' side why they would make it out with a round-eared all-hairy human. If there's a sexual aberration on the elfs' which make them love ugly hairy creatures there would be a race of half-elf half-dwarves too. It's basically alcohol.

Half-orcs exist so that not every barbarians need to be named Conan. Now they can be named Krusk as well. It requires rape and murder, or a lot of alcohol. Very lot. Preferably the first.

Half-dwarves... Ick. Alcohol could solve the situation, too. But only for the human. Dwarves are kinda resistant.

Half-halfings on the other side would be the race that would make sense. They're small and cute, pedophiles in a d&d world could have a hobby like that.

Half-gnomes... Mix the prerequsites for half-dwarves and half-haflings.

Half-ogres... *shudder* Be sure you have a sick wizard nearby to watch this and cast enlarge person on you, otherwise it won't work. A blindness spell or domination also helps a lot. Alcohol does not.

Half-giants. Serious magical assistance is needed and a bludgeoning weapon that deals non-lethal damage also helps.

Half-goblins, half-hobgoblin or half-bugbears? A really drunk human scouting warband after a victory could be capable of such deeds. Or vica versa.

And than would come the goblin-dwarf, ogre-elf and other pairings best not to even talk about :)

(I just get the idea about an high-level enchanter wizard who uses domination and some druidish spells to experience such things. Perhaps even shapechange. It'd freak out my PC'S. What a good plot-hook to have the wizard enchant one of them for his "studies". :) I'm soooo going to use it... )

((Then it comes to wizards and druids shapechanging and hit on their familiars/animal companions. Some things in d&d are just not right.))

Khantalas
2006-12-26, 07:20 AM
How come there are humans with Storm Giant bloodlines, anyway? Someone would seriously need polymorph.

And how come half-giants are a psionic race? Does it make any sense? At all?

Thomas
2006-12-26, 08:13 AM
Didn't one of the old setting have half-dwarves? They were sterile....called Muls or something?

Muls, yes. From Athas (Dark Sun). They've got the height of humans, the brawn and thick bones of dwarves (this leads to most human mothers and many dwarf mothers of muls dying in childbirth), incredible endurance, no hair anywhere on their bodies, and thick eyebrow-ridges. They're popular slaves and gladiators. They're also sterile, which makes little to no sense, since half-elves aren't. (Half-giants are also sterile, I think; they are/were somehow created, or their creation is/was somehow influenced, by the Sorcerer Kings.)

AtomicKitKat
2006-12-26, 09:00 AM
Size matters not. At least, as long as the mother is bigger than either the child or father.

Odd would be Prime Material Anything plus Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus Anything. Seriously, WTF?

Signmaker
2006-12-26, 09:04 AM
Elves and Orcs have the same gestation period, as well as similar anatomy below the equator. Dwarves I have no freaking idea. Same with half-halfings

Matthew
2006-12-26, 09:12 AM
It just follows the Tolkien paradigm or, rather, what it is understood to be. I remember my Red Box M.E.R.P. rulebook had Half Dwarves in it...

pestilenceawaits
2006-12-26, 09:13 AM
Muls, yes. From Athas (Dark Sun). They've got the height of humans, the brawn and thick bones of dwarves (this leads to most human mothers and many dwarf mothers of muls dying in childbirth), incredible endurance, no hair anywhere on their bodies, and thick eyebrow-ridges. They're popular slaves and gladiators. They're also sterile, which makes little to no sense, since half-elves aren't. (Half-giants are also sterile, I think; they are/were somehow created, or their creation is/was somehow influenced, by the Sorcerer Kings.)

This is correct but the new half giants even though they are heavily influenced by their dark sun predecessors are quite a bit different.

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-26, 11:50 AM
there is a template somewhere on this forum for half-dwarves. just go to the homebrew site and search the threads for half-dwarf. i would do it for you, but im just to lazy. mind you that posting on said thread could be considered threadomancy, so be wary of doing so. i have copied the template into my computer, but its my other computer, so i dont have it with me.

also, ive always considered halflings to be half human half something else anyway. i just want to figure out the stats for a ling. those buggers must be tiny!

also also, in my homebrew, half-gnomes are called halflings. i bumped off the traditional halfling and substituted something new. solved two problems of crossbreeding.

Thomas
2006-12-26, 01:00 PM
This is correct but the new half giants even though they are heavily influenced by their dark sun predecessors are quite a bit different.

They're not half-giants, they're half-giants. They've got nothing what-so-ever to do with the Athasian version, aside from sharing a name. They're small, weak, smart, and don't have the fluctuating alignment component.


Size matters not. At least, as long as the mother is bigger than either the child or father.

Size matters a lot. Ask anyone who's given birth what it feels like. If the child is 25% or 50% bigger than human norm, the mother is screwed. Giving birth is dangerous enough with a child of the correct size.


It just follows the Tolkien paradigm or, rather, what it is understood to be. I remember my Red Box M.E.R.P. rulebook had Half Dwarves in it...

Umli. I have no idea where they're from.

Matthew
2006-12-26, 01:54 PM
Umli. I have no idea where they're from.

That's them. Apparently an invention of Iron Crown Enterprises.

AtomicKitKat
2006-12-26, 02:04 PM
Size matters a lot. Ask anyone who's given birth what it feels like. If the child is 25% or 50% bigger than human norm, the mother is screwed. Giving birth is dangerous enough with a child of the correct size.

I was pointing out that the only size that matters is the mother's, in so far as whether the baby could actually be carried to any term.

Signmaker
2006-12-26, 03:39 PM
there is a template somewhere on this forum for half-dwarves. just go to the homebrew site and search the threads for half-dwarf. i would do it for you, but im just to lazy. mind you that posting on said thread could be considered threadomancy, so be wary of doing so. i have copied the template into my computer, but its my other computer, so i dont have it with me.

also, ive always considered halflings to be half human half something else anyway. i just want to figure out the stats for a ling. those buggers must be tiny!

also also, in my homebrew, half-gnomes are called halflings. i bumped off the traditional halfling and substituted something new. solved two problems of crossbreeding.

According to Races of the Wild, Halflings are Pixies infused with parts of the essence of Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs. But then the gods got ticked at Yondalla for stealing some of each races as it made them weaker, yadda yadda yadda.

Deathcow
2006-12-26, 03:49 PM
I think the main rationale with creating half-orcs and half-elves was that orcs and elves are near enough to the basic human body shape that an interbreeding was possible. But then they created half-ogres, so I suppose half-dwarves should be possible. I suggest giving them stats as dwarves, but increase their land speed to 30, take away the ability to wear med/heavy armor without slowing down, and take away ability score adjustments.

Half-halflings and half-gnomes should be right out without some form of magic involved- just mechanically, it doesn't seem like it should work.

Edit: There's also a race in Fiend Folio called Mongrelfolk, that are a mishmash of all the standard races. They kind of suck, though.

Scorpina
2006-12-26, 03:53 PM
Half-halflings and half-gnomes should be right out without some form of magic involved- just mechanically, it doesn't seem like it should work.

Seems no worse to me than Half-Ogres, Half-Trolls or Half-Giants.

Deathcow
2006-12-26, 03:55 PM
Seems no worse to me than Half-Ogres, Half-Trolls or Half-Giants.

True- I suppose some magic should be involved there, too. While we're at it, how about stats for half-elf/half-orcs, or half-gnome/half-dwarves?

Scorpina
2006-12-26, 03:57 PM
...or any 'half-x/half-y' where neither is human, generally.

Half-Elf/Half-Drow always seemed like it'd work to me...

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-26, 04:04 PM
thats why there needs to be "half-" templates for all of the major races. human, elf, orc, gnome, dwarf, drow, duergar, svirfneblin, kobold, goblin, etc. they already have it for some half-species, like dragon and fiend, so we might as well extend the list.

Indoril
2006-12-26, 04:07 PM
This thread reminds me of a complication that came up in a campaign of mine about 2 years ago. The question "What happens when an elf and a dwarf mate?" was raised.

After an hour or so of debate (yeah, we really got into it), it was decided that an elven and dwarven couple spawned chimpanzees. Short, lanky, dexterous, strong, and hairy.

Scorpina
2006-12-26, 04:09 PM
Oooh, I think I saw stats for Half-Dwarf/Half-Elves once... 'Dwelfs' I think they were called...

Fizban
2006-12-26, 04:10 PM
That's why I have just decided that if I ever run a game, the only non-magical crossbreeds will be with humans (and even then only because of the precedent of half elves and orcs).


And how come half-giants are a psionic race? Does it make any sense? At all?
Because apparently the only way for an enlsaved race to ever escape their masters is to evolve latent psionic abilities that couldn't overthrow a fly.

Indoril
2006-12-26, 04:14 PM
Because apparently the only way for an enlsaved race to ever escape their masters is to evolve latent psionic abilities that couldn't overthrow a fly.

What about "monstrous strength"? Something tells me a half-giant enslaved via any means other than magic would, after X amount of time, figure out that he's about twice as big and four times as strong as the guy keeping him chained up.

Edit:Now that I have actually reads their entry, I see that half-giants were, indeed, enslaved magically. My bad.

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-26, 04:16 PM
i actually play a dwelf in a campaign. im also getting him made into an erfatar to be seen sometime in the future.

nothingclever
2006-12-26, 04:23 PM
That's why I have just decided that if I ever run a game, the only non-magical crossbreeds will be with humans (and even then only because of the precedent of half elves and orcs).

Because apparently the only way for an enlsaved race to ever escape their masters is to evolve latent psionic abilities that couldn't overthrow a fly.This discussion just gets better and better.

Hexa_Regina
2006-12-26, 06:31 PM
Actually, I think that idea about coming up with "half" templates for all the major races is a great idea, although instead of applying it to a standard race you could take two half-templates and stick them together.

What started this discussion in my Scarred Lands evil-party game, one of my players is playing a male Charduni dwarf Paladin while another is playing a female human Cleric from the same society. For a bit of character flavor, the person playing the dwarf decided he wanted to have certain "forbidden predilections" and the Cleric decided to play along. So I decided to co-opt it for a plot hook and have them deal with the wrath of their Church when they get back home. I thought a half-dwarf kid might be a nice touch.

Natania
2006-12-26, 06:43 PM
While we're at it, how about stats for half-elf/half-orcs, or half-gnome/half-dwarves?

I played a half-elf/half-orc once..... we called it an olf or a erc.... I was a paladin.... was quite interesting actually except that I didn't last more then 2 days :smalleek:

Velvet Elvis
2006-12-26, 06:46 PM
I rather like an alternate image of a half-dwarf (human/dwarf): Dwarf on one side, Human on the other.

They'd walk funny, but be great for side shows.

BlueWizard
2006-12-26, 07:54 PM
Definitely doabl,e I allow half-dwarves. Look closely at half-elf/elf stats to create your very own half-dwarf from full dwarf!

Deathcow
2006-12-26, 08:22 PM
Definitely doabl,e I allow half-dwarves. Look closely at half-elf/elf stats to create your very own half-dwarf from full dwarf!

As in, halve the benefits of any dwarf abilities, take away ability adjustments, and give them a crappy "Any class is favored class" ability to make up for it?

amanodel
2006-12-26, 08:27 PM
Well, it should work. Don't forget to add some random skill bonus, too! Like gather information. Or profession: slave.

MrNexx
2006-12-26, 10:16 PM
As muls have already been mentioned, I thought I should point out that half-dwarves are actually well-documented on Faerun, as well. The 1st/2nd edition bridge product, Dwarves Deep, goes into dwarven crossbreeds. It takes place after the Thunder Blessing is supposed to have happened, but before the Thunder Blessing was conceptualized, so it still talks about the dwarves as a dying race in Faerun.

Dwarves are supposed to be cross-fertile with gnomes, halflings, humans, and elves, but in all cases the offspring are simply counted as full-blooded dwarves (the dwarven deities intervene), though slightly favoring their non-dwarven parent in size and coloration (so a human half-dwarf will be tall, an elven half-dwarf will be weedy, a gnomish half-dwarf will be dark, and a halfling half-dwarf will be short). Their offspring with non-dwarfs or half-dwarfs will be half-dwarfs; their offspring with full dwarfs will be full dwarfs.

BlueWizard
2006-12-27, 12:24 AM
As long as it is balanced you can do a lot of things.

Fizban
2006-12-27, 01:57 AM
This discussion just gets better and better.
Your comment confuses me: are you being sarcastic, or do the internetz confuse my perception of your words?

Leon
2006-12-27, 06:05 AM
Elves and Orcs have the same gestation period, as well as similar anatomy below the equator. Dwarves I have no freaking idea. Same with half-halfings

Dwarves pop up out of the ground

Valairn
2006-12-27, 06:20 AM
Dwarves pop up out of the ground

As long as they are mining!

Leon
2006-12-27, 06:56 AM
Who knows what else they are doing down there

Valairn
2006-12-27, 07:47 AM
Dwarves are frisky! And they drink a lot, two things which means there should be more dwarves.....

Taking this a lot farther, considering the power of alchohol one might wonder why there aren't a plethora of half-breeds.....

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-27, 10:05 AM
by the way, this <==== is the conceptualization of a dwelf. short and stocky like a dwarf, but elegant like an elf. id give the dwelf a....well, technically if you look at the stats for dwarves and elves, dwelfs should get a dex bonus and a cha penalty. seems weird to me.

Narmoth
2006-12-27, 10:10 AM
This thread reminds me of a complication that came up in a campaign of mine about 2 years ago. The question "What happens when an elf and a dwarf mate?" was raised.

After an hour or so of debate (yeah, we really got into it), it was decided that an elven and dwarven couple spawned chimpanzees. Short, lanky, dexterous, strong, and hairy.

In my campaign there is a smith that is half dwarf half elf (with the mother being the elf). He looks human and is kind to adventurers. And his parrents are married.

My little sister ran a campaign where one were going to play half dwarf half gnome, and allthrough she didn't know what that would mean rulevice she allowed it. I suggested that the player got only overcrossing abillities of both dwarves and gnomes, and she ruled it that way.

I would suggest that for half-races the human chart is used, with human unique abillities are substituted with abilities of the other race.

Valairn
2006-12-27, 12:09 PM
I rule that half-elf / half-dwarf would create a magical race unlike the parents entirely..... Combine stone and trees and you don't get petrified wood, you have to combine water and wood to get that.

I'm thinking that since both races are close to the earth but in different ways, that the race born of them would probably have druid as a prefered class, and probably a stat bonus to wis(having to put up with two very different world views in parents could do that).....

Scorpina
2006-12-27, 12:28 PM
If anything, I'd think that a Dwelf would have stats fairly similar to a Gnome. Only bigger. And not Bardic.

Gorbash Kazdar
2006-12-27, 12:30 PM
*Cough* Shameless self-plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10365) *Cough*

Scorpina
2006-12-27, 12:34 PM
...sameless? Your self plug has no similarities to anything?

Valairn
2006-12-27, 12:39 PM
Scorpina reveals the truth....

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-27, 12:41 PM
ummmm, yes it does. it goes back to the OP, about what a half-dwarf would be. only because this thread was diverted into dwelves it seems non-sequitor.

Gorbash Kazdar
2006-12-27, 12:46 PM
...sameless? Your self plug has no similarities to anything?
Besides typos :smalltongue: Which have been corrected, in any case.

Logic
2006-12-28, 12:37 AM
Humans and almost every other sentient race can cross-breed to some degree...except apparently dwarves. Is there a reason for this or is it just an oversight?
I could be mistaken, but I always thought that Derro had some human blood in them, being slaves to mindflayers for so long and being forced to breed with humans to make more resiliant slaves...

Hamster_Ninja
2006-12-29, 03:31 AM
The way I've always thought of it was this: Dwarves reproduce asexually, gnomes through a series of ever stranger interpretive dances, and halflings get their figurative groove on by high-fiving each other. Tis what I was taught as a child.

Captain van der Decken
2006-12-29, 04:52 AM
I could be mistaken, but I always thought that Derro had some human blood in them, being slaves to mindflayers for so long and being forced to breed with humans to make more resiliant slaves...


Weren't Deurgar the mindflayer slaves and Derro the insane human-dwarf crossbreed?

The Glyphstone
2006-12-29, 10:27 AM
How come no one has mentioned half-dragons yet?

There's a Half-Beholder template I have from a 3rd party book too...

Scorpina
2006-12-29, 11:27 AM
Duergar we're definately Illithid slaves, though I think that Derro might have been too.

Maybe it varies with setting...

Total_Viking_Power
2006-12-29, 12:37 PM
No reason why Dwarves and humans shouldn't "get their groove on"... Except: As the GM, you should decide the "real" (as opposed to known) descent of the races in your game.
For example: In Arda, Tolkiens world, Half-elves exist because both their parent races are "Children of Illuvatar", and really quite close physically. Starting out that way, anywho, cuz the Elves change over time. But Dwarves are created from stone and stuff by Aule, and are not related to Elves or Men. Halflings are stated to be closely related to Men, but I guess Tolkien wasn't the type of man to create amorous connections between men and children-sized creatures. I guess they'd breed true, though, or at least get sterile young.
Edit: Oh, and half-orcs are originally magically concieved. Saruman used his powers to breed Humans and Orcs, but they where already related anyhow.

In most DnD stuff I know of, Dwarves are not genetically farther from Humans than Elves. I'd rule they could if they tried. Maybe with lowered fertility.

Magic would solve any physical or biological problems, tho. If you really want them to have a child, maybe some god (their patron?) could intervene. (S)he might not be as bigoted as his/her church.

JimmyDPawn
2006-12-29, 02:12 PM
Why aren't there half dwarves? Because dwarves reproduce the same way mushrooms so;fragmentation (or something like that). If you cut of part of a dwarf's beard, it grows into another dwarf.

Thus, why there are so few dwarfs; they never shave.


EDIT: Curses! Hamster ninja beat me to it! How'd I miss that?

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-29, 02:42 PM
wait, so does that make dwarves regenerative? im making sure to let my dm know that next game :smallbiggrin:

Belteshazzar
2006-12-29, 04:19 PM
In my world there is a whole race of half-dwarven people. They are created by interbreeding dwarves and lesser fay like sprites (think kender with an excuse for fast speech), pixies, and other fay who are are closer to their hight than most races. I am surprised no one has suggested them yet:Leprechauns.

Mauril Everleaf
2006-12-29, 04:30 PM
well, the mm of old says they are elf/pixie crossbreeds, so i guess thats why. although i would vote for gnome/pixie crossbreed myself.

Narmoth
2006-12-30, 08:47 AM
There's a Half-Beholder template I have from a 3rd party book too...

Ok. Now I have a good chance to get better acquinted with my lunch, as it clearly want's to emerge back the way it entered.

I think it's time to get some things clear about interbreeding:
- Those who breed through spores or pollen, like trees and fungus might teoretically interbreed with each other. How close they are genetically desides if they get offspring and if the offspring is able to breed. Physical hindrances as different size of pollen / pollen receiving stuff and time of spore/pollen-release also aply.
- Those who breed with fysical contact are limited by the compatibillity of physical organs (if you don't know what I'm talking about, just give up reading the rest of the post) and genetic compatibility. Therefore, as Total_Viking_Power pointed out if elves and humans have more or less similar genetic makeup, they can interbreed. The result depends on how close they are geneticaly. A donkey and a horse get nonreproductive offspring while a dog and a wolf get normal offspring that has abillities from both parrents. Therefore a dwarf/elf could well be possible, but a dragon and a human are to geneticallly different for it to be possible to create a dragon/human throough normal intercourse.
- Those who breed through magic will depend on the compatibillity of the magic. Particullary the species that has that form of magic as a part of their being rather than are generally capable of spellcasting. The half-beholder, the half-fiend and the half-dragon all are created at least partially this way, but they should be sterilke if they don't posess the same type of magic to facilitate further breeding. (I'm not a huge fan of non-standard races)

Narmoth
2007-01-01, 10:55 AM
When speaking of halflings: http://www.commissionedcomic.com/index.php?strip=174

silvermesh
2007-01-01, 12:17 PM
I bring a bit of evolution to the game table...

humans and dwarves evolved similarly, but are not the same species. they can interbreed the way a horse and a donkey can, producing "mules", infertile offspring.
In my world, elves were once men, endowed with the magical blood of dragons, blessed with long lives, and magical prowess. The first orcs were savage men who tried to steal this same power from the dragons. they were cursed for their insolence.
humans/elves/orcs are all the same base species, thus they can interbreed. (elf/orc balances out and produces a human, or maybe something more interesting)anything else is based on how close they are genetically.