OOTS afterlife question

[Poppatomus]

I was re-reading the "Roy in Heaven" arc in light of Reddish Mage's recent thread on the always lawful evil concept and some questions arose that seemed like it might allow for some interesting speculation/discussion.

Specifically, in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) comic, Eugene mentions that the worshipers of the Northern Gods are lined up on the other side of the mountain for judgment, explaining why their part of the demiplane was so empty.

If we take from that the idea that worshipers of different gods go to different places on the demiplane, can we assume that there were some lawful good goblins there that day, in some other part of the mountain? Can a "worshiper" of the Dark One, you're average goblin footsoldier, possibly also be lawful good, the way that, say some of Tarquin's soldiers might be LG as well as LE or everything inbetween? and, if so, what does the Dark One's section of the LG mountain look like?

[Zmeoaice]

I think in D&D in order to worship a god you can't be more than one step away from its alignment. If the Dark One is evil, then a good goblin can't worship it, although it is possible TDO is neutral.

I'm guessing the sections are similar. We saw an Azurite climb on the same side as Roy, so they probably start at the same place.

[Obscure Blade]

The Dark One appears (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) to be based in Acheron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29), or at least the OOTS-verse equivalent of it. So, I suppose the question is if all goblins go to the Dark One or not - he is their only god after all.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think in D&D in order to worship a god you can't be more than one step away from its alignment.

That's only for clerics, though the further you are from the god's alignment, the less likely you are to actually worship them, natch.

I'm sure plenty of CE red/black/white dragons worship the LE Tiamat.

[Poppatomus]

I think you have to be within one step to be a cleric of the god, but "worship" in the generic sense of follower I always thought was broader. Correct me if I am wrong, but I always got the sense that the worship of the Dark One is part of Goblin culture, in the same way that the dwarves worship a particular pantheon, that includes good and evil.

And you're right about the mountain: Once you get there it's likely the same for everyone. I guess what I meant more was the demi-plane. Is there a seraph out there that evaluates those that worship the dark one? Seems like it would be an odd job, (assuming, as I am, that he's an explicitly evil deity).

Part of the reason I ask is because, as came up in that other thread, part of the theme of the story is attacking the idea all Xs are evil, and so I can just go smite them without repercussions. But the racial deity being explicitly evil (and, I would note, recruiting the dead of the species into an enormous spectral army), seems to undercut that message.

[Savannah]

I think in D&D in order to worship a god you can't be more than one step away from its alignment. If the Dark One is evil, then a good goblin can't worship it, although it is possible TDO is neutral.

You can't be a cleric of a god if you're more than one step away in alignment. You can worship any god you want (although in practice most people end up worshiping gods of a similar alignment to themselves, as those are the gods who support the sorts of things they support).

[ti'esar]

Part of the reason I ask is because, as came up in that other thread, part of the theme of the story is attacking the idea all Xs are evil, and so I can just go smite them without repercussions. But the racial deity being explicitly evil (and, I would note, recruiting the dead of the species into an enormous spectral army), seems to undercut that message.

Keep in mind, the Dark One is an ascended deity.

[Poppatomus]

Keep in mind, the Dark One is an ascended deity.

Interesting. How do you think that impacts this, though?

[Ramien]

It's also been established that not all faiths/species go to the plane that matches their alignment - witness dwarves that don't die with honor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

It's entirely possible that an LG hobgoblin that died would still progress to the Dark One's Domain unless there was another deity that specifically laid claim to the soul.

[ti'esar]

Interesting. How do you think that impacts this, though?

Because it makes it less likely for there to be the kind of causal relationship between his alignment and that of the goblin race that your argument seems to be assuming.

Have you read SoD?

[Poppatomus]

I have not read it, sadly. (plan to, haven't yet picked up the book) If there is something in there that would contradict this, and etiquette allows it to be shared, please share.

To clarify, I am not assuming that he created Goblins in his image, or that Goblins have to worship him. I am saying that, based on what we've seen in the story:

1.) The Dark One seems to be a Goblin deity, and the Dark One is evil.
2.) Not all goblins even those who follow Redcloak and fight in the army are necessarily evil,
3.) There is probably some overlap between goblins in group 2, and followers, at lest somewhat, of the Dark One
4.) In the OoTS-verse, when you die, your alignment determines your ultimate resting place, but who you worship determines, at least for good aligned characters, where you are sifted.
(note, too, that, for Dwarves, the selection process can be a bit more arbitrary, because of how they are sorted, suggesting that it may also be the case that your race can determine your sorting more generally.) EDIT: As Ramien noted.

I guess the question is, is the Dark One part of one of the pantheons, or do good aligned goblins end up being judged according to his standard, or something else?

[Poppatomus]

It's also been established that not all faiths/species go to the plane that matches their alignment - witness dwarves that don't die with honor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html).

It's entirely possible that an LG hobgoblin that died would still progress to the Dark One's Domain unless there was another deity that specifically laid claim to the soul.

That's dark, even for OoTS.

[Gift Jeraff]

The Dark One is not part of any pantheon, hence his unique violet aura.

I would guess that the eastern side of the mountain is used as an "Other" category. So any worshippers of the elven gods, the Dark One, puppets, nontheistic concepts, nothing, etc. get processed there.

[Gray Mage]

Interesting. How do you think that impacts this, though?

Ascended means he was a mortal before he was a God. So, he was born a goblin and he didn't actually create any of the Goblinoid races.

[Ramien]

That's dark, even for OoTS.

If you're talking about the dwarven thing: Eh, not really. That's standard Norse afterlife with a lot more generous 'Stay out of Helheim' clause. (And Hel looks a lot healthier in the OotS verse).

If you mean the Goblins, again: Eh, not really. If they worshipped the Dark One, then they should be happy to go to his side after death. If they didn't worship him, then they either didn't worship anyone (which is the only really dark part if they still go to the Dark One's side), or worshipped a god who would then have first dibs on the soul.

[Poppatomus]

If you're talking about the dwarven thing: Eh, not really. That's standard Norse afterlife with a lot more generous 'Stay out of Helheim' clause. (And Hel looks a lot healthier in the OotS verse).

If you mean the Goblins, again: Eh, not really. If they worshipped the Dark One, then they should be happy to go to his side after death. If they didn't worship him, then they either didn't worship anyone (which is the only really dark part if they still go to the Dark One's side), or worshipped a god who would then have first dibs on the soul.

It's the second Goblin option that I was thinking of as dark.

I do think that first one, though, makes the question about all Xs are evil, pertinent again. It suggests strongly that any nominal follower of the dark one would have to be evil, or at least willing to fight on behalf of evil, which makes the whole nation of goblins more of a threat than it seems like they should be given the story's moral themes.

[Ramien]

It's the second Goblin option that I was thinking of as dark.

I do think that first one, though, makes the question about all Xs are evil, pertinent again. It suggests strongly that any nominal follower of the dark one would have to be evil, or at least willing to fight on behalf of evil, which makes the whole nation of goblins more of a threat than it seems like they should be given the story's moral themes.

Well, to me, it seems more as though a goblin who isn't a follower of the Dark One would not be taking part in the Plan - at least not willingly. (see Right Eye)And, even in a worst case scenario, the Dark One is the only god who's shown to think about goblin warfare, so the afterlife for even a goblin who disagrees may not be as horrible as you're imagining. All we've seen is Jirix's afterlife, and as he was on the fore of the fight, that's where the Dark One put his soul for the few moments it was out of his body.

[Poppatomus]

Well, to me, it seems more as though a goblin who isn't a follower of the Dark One would not be taking part in the Plan - at least not willingly. (see Right Eye)And, even in a worst case scenario, the Dark One is the only god who's shown to think about goblin warfare, so the afterlife for even a goblin who disagrees may not be as horrible as you're imagining. All we've seen is Jirix's afterlife, and as he was on the fore of the fight, that's where the Dark One put his soul for the few moments it was out of his body.

Fair point on Jirix. I guess part of the reason it gets at me a bit is that it seems like, if there's a space anywhere to subtly reinforce the point that identity does not equal alignment, its in showing a equitable afterlife (the way that 918 does for LE). It just seems that, given the nature of the pantheons and the system laid out, that some races end up in fairly risky positions as regards their everlasting souls.

[Werbaer]

I think in D&D in order to worship a god you can't be more than one step away from its alignment. If the Dark One is evil, then a good goblin can't worship it, although it is possible TDO is neutral.
We don't know whether this is true for the OotS world. Durkon is lawfull, and Thor seems to be chaotic.

[Torrasque]

It seems to me that the afterlife based on alignment alone is the default place to go when you die. If a specific god has something else in line for his followers they go there.

If that is so, then a goblin who has forsaken the Dark One, would instead be judged on his alignment.

It's all theorycrafting of course (and likely not something the Giant has completely fleshed out).

[Zmeoaice]

We don't know whether this is true for the OotS world. Durkon is lawful, and Thor seems to be chaotic.

I don't think that partying and getting drunk makes one "chaotic". Durkon's evangelism to the orc tribe made it seem like Thor was Lawful or at least Neutral Good.

I remember the worship only applies to clerics, but I'd imagine that a good goblin wouldn't follow an evil god. The directional pantheons have several gods, so one can be processed by them and be able to pick a god they are aligned to, but TDO seems to be alone.

[Mammal]

I think the most likely answer is that not every Goblin worships, period. If the god specifically of your race is evil, and you're not, I think it'd be more likely that you'd stop being religious, rather than converting to the worship of another Pantheon.

SoD Spoilers
For example, Right-Eye never really seemed to care all that much about TDO. His brother was a cleric, but he, like Roy, wasn't particularly religious. I don't think he regularly attended services of any sort or raised his children to be particularly pious, and by the end of the book, he seems outright hostile towards TDO.

[Orm-Embar]

"Wait. Do not dwarven souls rest on the Outer Plane that matches their alignment, as it is with my people, or the humans?" -- Malack

Apparently lizard people aren't locked into a particular racial deity. They go where their alignment belongs. Doesn't exactly answer the original post's question about goblins, since they do have a racial deity, but still.

[veti]

"Wait. Do not dwarven souls rest on the Outer Plane that matches their alignment, as it is with my people, or the humans?" -- Malack

Apparently lizard people aren't locked into a particular racial deity. They go where their alignment belongs. Doesn't exactly answer the original post's question about goblins, since they do have a racial deity, but still.

About "racial deities"...

Obviously this is just an interpretation, but I take "dwarves" in that context to mean "worshippers of the dwarven/Norse pantheon", rather than "people who are racially dwarves, even if they worship completely different gods such as the Southern or Western pantheons."

Durkon identifies dwarfhood closely with things - like duty, honour, loyalty - that obviously aren't genetically part of the package (witness Hilgya). It's possible that he's also talking, here, about (what he habitually thinks of as) "true dwarves", rather than "everyone with dwarvish blood".

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, I figure it's more "If you believe Hel should get your soul for dying what you perceive to be dishonourably, then you will be considered for Hel."

[dps]

About "racial deities"...

Obviously this is just an interpretation, but I take "dwarves" in that context to mean "worshippers of the dwarven/Norse pantheon", rather than "people who are racially dwarves, even if they worship completely different gods such as the Southern or Western pantheons."

Durkon identifies dwarfhood closely with things - like duty, honour, loyalty - that obviously aren't genetically part of the package (witness Hilgya). It's possible that he's also talking, here, about (what he habitually thinks of as) "true dwarves", rather than "everyone with dwarvish blood".

Keep in mind, though, that while Hilgya didn't behave in a manner that Durkon found appropriate for dwarves, she was a cleric of one of the dwarven gods (Loki).

[Scow2]

Well, to me, it seems more as though a goblin who isn't a follower of the Dark One would not be taking part in the Plan - at least not willingly. (see Right Eye)And, even in a worst case scenario, the Dark One is the only god who's shown to think about goblin warfare, so the afterlife for even a goblin who disagrees may not be as horrible as you're imagining. All we've seen is Jirix's afterlife, and as he was on the fore of the fight, that's where the Dark One put his soul for the few moments it was out of his body.Right-Eye WAS a follower of the Dark One - but to him, Redcloak had gone too far, and his alliance with Xykon was against the betterment of Goblinkind.

I think even Lawful Good worshippers of the Dark One would want to go with him (And most goblins would want to as well), as service to the Dark One isn't the torment and suffering most Evil characters get. Of the Evil worlds, Acheron's actually one of the 'better' ones. At least you keep your dignity, and aren't turned into a Grub.

[Gift Jeraff]

I can't find the post, but I remember Rich saying something along the lines that parts of the Northern pantheon are more associated with dwarven culture (such as Odin and Thor), and others are worshiped more by humans (such as Loki and Freya).

[Obscure Blade]

Yeah, I figure it's more "If you believe Hel should get your soul for dying what you perceive to be dishonourably, then you will be considered for Hel."

The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.Terry Pratchett, Eric. :smallamused:

[Pyron]

Well, we do see some trolls (who are usually Chaotic Evil) in the Lawful Good afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html). However, if you think about it, they're not exactly in paradise. They're there only to be defeated/killed as a humanoid adventurer's reward.

Spoilers for Start of Darkness
This continues the theme of the god's using the monster races as fodder for their pet-PC races.

[ti'esar]

Right-Eye WAS a follower of the Dark One - but to him, Redcloak had gone too far, and his alliance with Xykon was against the betterment of Goblinkind.

I think even Lawful Good worshippers of the Dark One would want to go with him (And most goblins would want to as well), as service to the Dark One isn't the torment and suffering most Evil characters get. Of the Evil worlds, Acheron's actually one of the 'better' ones. At least you keep your dignity, and aren't turned into a Grub.

First, spoilers. Secondly,
One of the last things Right-Eye said before his death was that the Dark One is a "petty spiteful god" who doesn't care about goblin lives. I seriously doubt he was a follower of TDO anymore. Wherever his soul wound up, we can fairly safely assume it wasn't the Dark One's realm.


Well, we do see some trolls (who are usually Chaotic Evil) in the Lawful Good afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html). However, if you think about it, they're not exactly in paradise. They're there only to be defeated/killed as a humanoid adventurer's reward.

Spoilers for Start of Darkness
This continues the theme of the god's using the monster races as fodder for their pet-PC races.

...Or they just weren't "real" trolls.

[Pyron]

...Or they just weren't "real" trolls.

That's possible. But, (more spoilers, Start of Darkness again)
If the gods, even the Lawful Good ones, created these monster just to be slaughtered in life, why would they there. They're just a means to an end, so then I doubt the gods would consider the monster's need and desires in death.

[Poppatomus]

That's possible. But, (more spoilers, Start of Darkness again)
If the gods, even the Lawful Good ones, created these monster just to be slaughtered in life, why would they there. They're just a means to an end, so then I doubt the gods would consider the monster's need and desires in death.

Interesting. I had wholly forgotten about that scene.

The more I think about this thread, the more I think that it would be appropriate to at some point have a Goblin somewhere in an LG afterlife scene. Especially since the consensus seems to be converging on the idea that the LG goblins would likely end up there, rather than with the Dark One.

[Orm-Embar]

About "racial deities"...

Obviously this is just an interpretation, but I take "dwarves" in that context to mean "worshippers of the dwarven/Norse pantheon", rather than "people who are racially dwarves, even if they worship completely different gods such as the Southern or Western pantheons."

Durkon identifies dwarfhood closely with things - like duty, honour, loyalty - that obviously aren't genetically part of the package (witness Hilgya). It's possible that he's also talking, here, about (what he habitually thinks of as) "true dwarves", rather than "everyone with dwarvish blood".

Captain Carrot says hi :)

[littlebum2002]

Considering Rich's opinions on the matter, and considering he is the one who created this universe, I think it's safe to say that it's virtually impossible that each and every goblinoid in this universe is evil. Just saying.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, I figure it's more "If you believe Hel should get your soul for dying what you perceive to be dishonourably, then you will be considered for Hel."
I can't find the post, but I remember Rich saying something along the lines that parts of the Northern pantheon are more associated with dwarven culture (such as Odin and Thor), and others are worshiped more by humans (such as Loki and Freya).Here's the post, found it in the Index of the Giant's Comments.



Northern Pantheon:
There's no direct evidence in the comic to support this, but in 3E Deities and Demigods, I believe the Asgardian pantheon is divided into suggested race-based groups, with Thor, etc for Dwarves, and Frey, Freya, etc for Humans. Presumably, Dwarves like hammers and getting hammered, and Humans are into procreating like bunnies. Maybe Rich's world has a similar thing going on, where certain groups of worshippers are culturally predisposed towards particular deities' portfolios.Pretty much this. A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

[Poppatomus]

Considering Rich's opinions on the matter, and considering he is the one who created this universe, I think it's safe to say that it's virtually impossible that each and every goblinoid in this universe is evil. Just saying.

I agree. The question, though, is what happens to those non-evil Goblinoids when they die?

The quote Jasidof uncovered allows a hypothetical:

Somewhere in the army attacking Azure city is a lawful good Goblin, let's call her Elgee. Elgee supports the overthrown of Azure city as tyrannical and racist, strongly identifies as a goblin, and is fighting for Goblin equal rights in the way that Redcloak might were he not evil. She's not too keen on redcloak and his approach, but given her circumstances does the best with what she has in advancing lawful good. She's not particularly religious. A giant soldier skewers Elgee, along with a dozen other goblins.

Given that, should she go with TDO? to the Mountain? should she get to choose? Should she get to change her mind later?