Optimizing the Unopt0mized #1: S&B Mundane

[ChaoticDitz]

Title says all. I want to try to optimize a decision that is regarded as unoptimized. Rather than trying to optimize a class, such as Wizard (or more appropriate to this example, Truenamer), I'm looking for what the Char-Op boards can come up with for optimizing things that are just entirely bad strategies.

In this case, Sword-and-Board mundane characters.

So, what's the best you can come up with involving some general aspect of tanking (read: BSF), efficient (though of course not to the level of 2Handed PA) damage, and general not being a burden to the party you're with? (After all, general rule of thumb despite all fantasy cliches is that only casters in DnD should ever think about wearing heavy armor; heavy-armored mundane is bad).

I was thinking of avoiding the longsword-and-tower-shield Fighter that this idea generally brings to mind, and go more for a trident-and-heavy-shield Warblade. This is of course keeping more of a military application in mind, as while the trident's thrown abilities probably aren't the most applicable outside of very rare circumstances at very low levels, a game involving a lot of enemy cavalry can benefit from the trident's ability to be set against a charge, and a large number of the Warblade's stances and maneuvers will still be useful for this character even though he isn't two-handed Power Charge Full Attacking.

As for specific Maneuvers, I couldn't say, since I don't have much experience with Tome of Battle, but it seems fairly solid to me. Tridents are rather versatile for mundane offense and defense. After all, since chargers can get in and go some ridiculous number of feet away after a charge, chasing them down isn't exactly feasible.

However, I'd like to hear what you guys have to say. Let the unopt0mizing begin!

[ScrambledBrains]

Given a trident focus, a Warblade focusing on the Diamond Mind school is thematically appropriate. Considering that it's a darn good school with maneuvers that can shore up two of the Warblade's lower Saves, give him the ability to strike at touch AC instead with others, and also give him fair damage too with some further maneuvers, this seems a good starting point. As for the shield, I can't be much help there, I'm afraid.

Best of luck on the project though! :smallsmile:

[lsfreak]

For shield fighting, take a look at Person Man's collected stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630) for a good starting point.

[Grod_The_Giant]

An initiator with any weapon will be fairly strong. Knight 4 (for general tanking abilities)/Warblade 16, with a heavy shield and a scimitar?

[JaronK]

Try this thread as a starter:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2

JaronK

[DR27]

Try this thread as a starter:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2

JaronK
Person Man S&B handbook and JaronK's builds?
/end thread

[ChaoticDitz]

While that is admittedly a wonderful article, JaronK, it presses the bounds of what can be called "Sword-and-Board"; at the point where those builds are being used, I'd be asking my DM "Mind if I just wield that shield two-handed? Kthanx".

Diamond Mind is actually VERY thematically appropriate with the trident, though scimitar knight/warblade probably takes the cake for effectiveness overall I'd assume. Not that Diamond Mind is bad (it's great). Just other one sounds more successful as a tank and has some abilities to go along with that from the Knight class.

[avr]

There's a 1H reach weapon in Secrets of Sarlona, the spinning sword. Given the Crusaders' ability to control the nearby battlefield with the Thicket of Blades stance and the Stand Still feat, and the occasional Devoted Spirit maneuver which uses a shield, maybe you're looking at the wrong class?

[ChaoticDitz]

An entirely valid possibility. S&B doesn't necessarily mean Warblade, it was just the first thing I came up with.

[DR27]

While that is admittedly a wonderful article, JaronK, it presses the bounds of what can be called "Sword-and-Board"; at the point where those builds are being used, I'd be asking my DM "Mind if I just wield that shield two-handed? Kthanx".The first one works just fine with sword and board, just less bonkers

[Sir_Thaddeus]

The ability Uncanny Blow, from the prestige class Exotic Weapon Master, from Complete Warrior, has language that, depending on your DM, could be interpreted to mean that a one-handed weapon may get the favorable Power Attack returns of a two-handed one while being wielded one-handed. It's open to interpretation, so it may not be reliable; also, you have to sink two feats (exotic weapon proficiency and weapon focus) and a level to get the ability. All the same, I like it, and I find it useful for S&Bing a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe with a shield.

[Firechanter]

The ability Uncanny Blow, from the prestige class Exotic Weapon Master, from Complete Warrior, has language that, depending on your DM, could be interpreted to mean that a one-handed weapon may get the favorable Power Attack returns of a two-handed one while being wielded one-handed.

Yeah that's a weird one. As if it would have killed them to add "even when wielding it one-handed" if that had been their intention. As written, it may be just there to clarify that the damage doesn't increase beyond the usual and the x2 Str bonus when wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands. Doesn't do a very good job at it.

That said, if you decide it works one-handed, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to me; if you want to go Spinning Sword you're gonna need an EWP anyway. If you're absolutely loth to buy a WF, take 2 levels of Swordsage and get it for free (for Katana or bastard sword), along with other nice things. Nowhere does it say that EWP and WF have to be with the same exotic weapon.

--

Maneuvers: unless I'm missing anything, there are exactly two maneuvers specifically designed for S&B, on Devoted Spirit 2 and 7. And I wouldn't consider them terribly powerful.

How about a Paladin with Divine Shield?

[Gwendol]

Well, it's something. And both are immediate actions with the intent to waste the action of the opposition, which means you get something for nothing, more or less. They increase in utility quite a lot if you manage to threaten a wider area (such as from being Large or larger).

[Firechanter]

Yes, sure, they aren't _bad_, but they aren't something I would center a build on, is all I'm saying.

I also can't help noticing that PersonMan's collection is lacking the usual blue-black-red colour-coding. Wonder why that is. xD

Anyway, I guess I gotta read JaronK's build now...

[Krazzman]

What I would do is go with Crusader at first, then maybe into Warblade and then a dual progression PrC for them both or similar.

Equipment needed:
Boots that give you always readied against a charge.
Feats needed if not using a reach weapon:
Hold the Line.
Feats needed all the time:
Combat Reflexes and enough dex to fuel it to have at least 3 AoO per round.
The feat that foils Power Attack.

It's just a rough basis but I think this could work rather well.

[Firechanter]

Those Steadfast Boots only work with two-handed weapons.

The feat that foils Power Attack - you probably mean Elusive Target. That one has Dodge and Mobility as prereqs. Pretty steep feat tax, so if you go that way it's prolly best to take other feats along with it that have the same prereqs.

And regarding JaronK's build, I concur with Ditz's assessment - it basically seems to assume you're wielding a shield two-handed. Which conjures up the image of an old Donald Duck comic where he, enacting a knight, creams someone over the head with his shield (which may well have been a trashcan lid).

[Gwendol]

I like the shield charge/slam feats.

Parrying shield OTOH... I cannot understand the thought process of the designers here: the whole idea of the shield is to prevent the enemy from reaching you, hence providing protection against touch attacks.