Incantatrix' Metamagic Effect & persistant spell

[Lactantius]

Hey,
I know that this topic has been discussed extensively.

Well, I wanna try to implement 4 levels of incantatrix into my current build.
The goal is to use persistant spell, but not for debatable munchkinism like shapechange and other broken stuff, no, I want to use it mainly for pretty standard self buffs.

Here my list sofar:
1 – Comprehend Languages, Friendly Face, Karmic Aura, Shield
2 – See Invisibility (outdated by permanency)
3 – Arcane Sight (outdated by permanency), Avoid Planar Effects, Battlemagic Perception, Dragonskin, Karmic Backlash
4 – Dragon’s Breath, Ilyykur’s Mantle, Lesser Globe of Invuln., Ray Deflection
5 – Duelward, Greater Blink, Spell Matrix
6 – Antimagic Field, Aura of Evasion, Globe of Invuln., Karmic Retribution, Prismatic Aura, Stone Body
7 –Greater Arcane Sight, Spell Sequencer, Spell Turning
9 – Absorption, Spell Trigger, Srinshee’s Spell Shift

If I stick to these spells, would you guys rate the metamagic effect combo still too overpowered or is it that what I wanted it to be?
- A decent, comfortable way to make some all-day-spell running all-day;
- Using persistant spell to make me survive better;
- Finally, not having to care about short duration of some good abjuration spells like the globes, spell turning and shield.

Additonally, these spells could still make profit of persistant spell until my caster level is high enough so that extend spell alone would be enough (my estimates: ECL 6 - 12)

2 – False Life, Heart of Air
3 – Heart of Water
4 –Heart of Earth
5 – Heart of Fire, Overland Flight
7 – Elemental Body, Energy Absorption
8 – Moment of Prescience

Comments?

[Story]

As pointed out in another thread, Globes of Invulnerability are immobile, so they're not terribly useful for adventuring.

Expeditious Retreat at level 1 is another good one.

Also, why not Greater Invisibility? I can understand if you're trying to stick to weaker spells, but a persisted Greater Blinking is more powerful then Greater Invisibility anyway.


Additonally, these spells could still make profit of persistant spell until my caster level is high enough so that extend spell alone would be enough (my estimates: ECL 6 - 12)

2 – False Life, Heart of Air
3 – Heart of Water
4 –Heart of Earth
5 – Heart of Fire, Overland Flight
7 – Elemental Body, Energy Absorption
8 – Moment of Prescience

Most of those can't be persisted and there's no reason you'd want to persist them anyway.

[eggynack]

What's antimagic field doing on that list? Seems like something of a bad idea to cancel out all of your buffs, and leave yourself without spells. You might also want to consider adding greater mirror image, if you don't consider that too cheesy. Finally, I'd probably avoid persisting the heart of x line. You're generally going to want to expend them before they run out of juice, so the duration is plenty. If you just have extra persisting room lying around, go right ahead, but it's not a particularly good option for this.

[Lactantius]

Oh, I forgot to mention: no touch- spell-cheese as "fixed range."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If using Antimagic Field, you'll need Extraordinary Spell Aim from Complete Adventurer to exclude yourself and your party from its effect. Note that per Rules Compendium AMF does not block line of effect for spells, so a spell cast from outside the AMF can still target someone inside the AMF but excluded from its effect. The only real reason to get this is so opponents close enough to be inside your AMF will have their magic suppressed.

Consider picking up Fell Drain Spell and/or Fell Frighten Spell to use with Death Armor and Fire Shield twice. Anything that hits you in melee takes some damage, gets three negative levels, and is Shaken > Frightened > Panicked for ten rounds. They're also good for Cloud of Knives and Thunderlance, and Dragon Breath as well. If you have a few extra feats, get Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electric, and Born of the Three Thunders to use with all of those, so anyone damaged by them will have to save vs knocked down and save vs stun on top of the fear and negative level.

[Story]

Also, Duelward can't be persisted since it's dischargeable. Comprehend Languages can be premanacied (as can Tongues).

[Lactantius]

I find it useful to reach a 48 hours duration to open up my spells/day for other uses, that's why I put heart spells on it.
Good catch about AMF. My high-level-application would include mastery of shaping with AMF, but that tactic would only work in defence situations, like being sieged.

[Story]

But even at 3+int, your free metamagic is limited, and it's silly to waste them on hour/level spells. Plus persisting Heart of X is dubious in the first place since they're effectively dischargeable.

Not sure why you'd bother with some of these spells. Aura of Evasion seems like a niche effect with a costly material component.

P.S. If you're looking for more hour/level buffs there's Mage Armor or it's greater/luminous variants, and Anticipate Teleportation.

P.P.S Prismatic Aura can't be persisted either. You should go back through and remove all the dischargeable ones.

[Spuddles]

But even at 3+int, your free metamagic is limited, and it's silly to waste them on hour/level spells. Plus persisting Heart of X is dubious in the first place since they're effectively dischargeable.

Day 1: cast buffs that last 48 hours.
Day 2: have yesterdays buffs AND today's buffs.

[Lactantius]

Okay, the list needs a makeover. My original intension and question is whether metamagic effect would get down to a good, decent ability if I restrict myself to non-cheese tricks or overpowered spells like shapechange?

[Spuddles]

You don't even need to persist shapechange.....

[eggynack]

Day 1: cast buffs that last 48 hours.
Day 2: have yesterdays buffs AND today's buffs.
That applies perfectly well to spells not of the heart of x line, though you'd probably be better off doing the same thing with a shorter term buff. Those tend to be more powerful, as the game uses duration as a balancing effect to some extent, though they may not be universally more powerful. In any case, it also doesn't really apply to spells that are of the heart of x line. As Story and I noted, those spells are generally discharged when you come up against a situation where that would be a good idea, so you're often not making use of the full duration of the spell. Sure, you might make full use of the duration in some cases, but it's a severe limiting factor on the spell's utility in a two day persisted state.

[Spuddles]

That applies perfectly well to spells not of the heart of x line, though you'd probably be better off doing the same thing with a shorter term buff. Those tend to be more powerful, as the game uses duration as a balancing effect to some extent, though they may not be universally more powerful. In any case, it also doesn't really apply to spells that are of the heart of x line. As Story and I noted, those spells are generally discharged when you come up against a situation where that would be a good idea, so you're often not making use of the full duration of the spell. Sure, you might make full use of the duration in some cases, but it's a severe limiting factor on the spell's utility in a two day persisted state.

Eh?

Day one is spent in your MMM.
Day two is spent adventuring.

Frees up spell slots.

[eggynack]

Eh?

Day one is spent in your MMM.
Day two is spent adventuring.

Frees up spell slots.
I suppose that makes a bit more sense. I was figuring something of a rotating buff list. Like, you cast half of your extend/persist spells on each day, thus doubling the number you have access to on any given day.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I suppose that makes a bit more sense. I was figuring something of a rotating buff list. Like, you cast half of your extend/persist spells on each day, thus doubling the number you have access to on any given day.That also maximizes your use of metamagic effect.

I'm wondering how B_F is getting to Panicked with Fell Frighten stuff. I see that Fell Frighten Death Armor + Fell Frighten Fire Shield would lead to Shaken > Frightened, but I don't see the third time for Panicked. Then again you can always just get an Acid Sheath (or some other "damage when you hit me" effect). The big problem with this strategy is that reach weapons don't care, but I guess stacking a bunch of Fell Frighten Cloud of Knives gets around that little issue. It just needs a pinch of Dread Witch.

[Vaz]

P.P.S Prismatic Aura can't be persisted either. You should go back through and remove all the dischargeable ones.

You can metamagic the effects, even those that normally cannot be modified by the metamagic, due to Metamagic effect.


At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place
Persistent spell effect is given in the examples to be one which is not instantaneous, or remains in play, as it were.

[Emperor Tippy]

If using Antimagic Field, you'll need Extraordinary Spell Aim from Complete Adventurer to exclude yourself and your party from its effect. Note that per Rules Compendium AMF does not block line of effect for spells, so a spell cast from outside the AMF can still target someone inside the AMF but excluded from its effect. The only real reason to get this is so opponents close enough to be inside your AMF will have their magic suppressed.

Extraordinary Spell Aim is for chumps, what you want is Selective Spell from Shining South. With it you can modify an area spell to exclude one designated creature from the spells effects. It's only +1 meta and if your DM is friendly you can probably get a rod of it at a reasonable price.

[Lactantius]

So, can we declare that persistant spell and metamagic effect could be used in a reasonable way within a fair and proper game?

That's my whole issue since I would like to keep the ridiculous and broken stuff off the table as good as it gets.

[Vaz]

Ban Incantatrix. It's ridiculous and broken. Persistent is fine on 0-3rd level spells for the most part (not only is it late game only, but it prevents you from casting 7th-9ths); although certain spells are broken with it (Wraithstrike, for example), and deserve a case by case approach.

[Aracor]

Persistent spell is one of those feats that is simply broken and never should have existed at all. It's semi-reasonable when you're actually paying the cost of +6 levels (although specific spells still break it). If you're obviating the need to pay the slot-level adjustment, it is not reasonable. Full stop.

[killem2]

Lord of the Sky is an interesting spell, but you must have evocation/transmutation schools available to you.

[Spuddles]

You can metamagic the effects, even those that normally cannot be modified by the metamagic, due to Metamagic effect.


Persistent spell effect is given in the examples to be one which is not instantaneous, or remains in play, as it were.

There's no clause in incantatrix that let's you break the rules of metamagic feats, which means you cant persist things like haste.


So, can we declare that persistant spell and metamagic effect could be used in a reasonable way within a fair and proper game?

That's my whole issue since I would like to keep the ridiculous and broken stuff off the table as good as it gets.

Dont play an incantatrix that uses persistent spell.


Persistent spell is one of those feats that is simply broken and never should have existed at all. It's semi-reasonable when you're actually paying the cost of +6 levels (although specific spells still break it). If you're obviating the need to pay the slot-level adjustment, it is not reasonable. Full stop.

Persistent spell without metamagic abuse isnt broken except for a handful of corner cases, and by the time you're casting 8th and 9ths, persistenr wraithstrike isnt particularly impressive.

The real problem with metamagic are the cost reducers. Only quicken, split ray, sculpt spell, fell drain, empower, and extend are worth paying full price, imo.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So, can we declare that persistant spell and metamagic effect could be used in a reasonable way within a fair and proper game?

That's my whole issue since I would like to keep the ridiculous and broken stuff off the table as good as it gets.It really depends on the group. Persistent spell is incredibly powerful, especially in this context, but it's also predictably powerful from a DM standpoint. It's a lot easier for a DM to metagame counter someone when their buff list is basically always the same, even if it's large.

Essentially "cheesy" is relative to the table. If the rest of the group is S&B Fighter, Pickpocket Rogue and Healbot Cleric, then OF COURSE Incantatrix is too much. If they're Shock Trooper Barbarian/Warblade, Unseen Seer and Clericzilla you're probably fine.

[Lactantius]

Hmm, I'm hestitating using the persistant combo exactly because of that reasons.

May it change the things if we assume that the party consists of 3 players, 2 of which are moderately experienced in handling D&D and finally, that we will go into the CotSQ-Campaign?

Since the difficulty rating seems very high and since we are one less player compared to a standard adventuring group, I thought it would be a balance shift towards the party by getting more-than-usual-n'average-op.


Another compromises would be:
- using persistant spell completely vanilla, but with a +4 modifier (instead of +6) so that you could use it normally as you would use quicken spell.
The problem of core persistant seems to be that no player can or would use it in the vanilla way since it is too expensive. Seems not too bad, imho.

- using metamagic effect with other feats. Plain extend spell seems reasonable.
Are there any other worthwile metamagic feats which affect ongoing spell effects?

What about empower spell, twin spell, sculpt spell and widen spell?
Though, those feats would lead more to an offensive than defensive style.

[Chronos]

Quoth GoodbyeSoberDay:

Essentially "cheesy" is relative to the table. If the rest of the group is S&B Fighter, Pickpocket Rogue and Healbot Cleric,...
One of these things is not like the others. A reasonably optimized pickpocket rogue is a campaign-smasher, since there's basically no defense against a sufficiently-high Sleight of Hand. Need to get the Artifact of Great MacGuffinness away from the Evil Overlord? Just walk up to him and take it.

[Spuddles]

One of these things is not like the others. A reasonably optimized pickpocket rogue is a campaign-smasher, since there's basically no defense against a sufficiently-high Sleight of Hand. Need to get the Artifact of Great MacGuffinness away from the Evil Overlord? Just walk up to him and take it.

Sleight of hand is opposed by spot, and in most cases where it matters, spot and sleight of hand will be about equal, or spot will be better due to monsters tending to have more HD.

Unless you're suggesing using epic rules and item familiar cheese. In which case I believe you are totally missing the point.

[Chronos]

First of all, most enemies don't max out Spot the same way that a skillmonkey can easily max out a skill (many don't even have ranks). Second, Spot will let you notice a theft, but it won't actually stop it.

[killem2]

First of all, most enemies don't max out Spot the same way that a skillmonkey can easily max out a skill (many don't even have ranks). Second, Spot will let you notice a theft, but it won't actually stop it.

So you can still accomplish the pick pocket even if spotted? That sounds like a slippery slope.

[Aracor]

Persistent spell without metamagic abuse isnt broken except for a handful of corner cases, and by the time you're casting 8th and 9ths, persistenr wraithstrike isnt particularly impressive.
I agree with this, and it's why I said it shouldn't exist. It breaks in the corner cases, and without obviating the cost, most cases it's underpowered. Virtually impossible to actually balance correctly, so simply removing it from the game is easier.

[Spuddles]

I agree with this, and it's why I said it shouldn't exist. It breaks in the corner cases, and without obviating the cost, most cases it's underpowered. Virtually impossible to actually balance correctly, so simply removing it from the game is easier.

Wraithstrike is the only thing I can think of that would be worth it, and compared to other 8th level spells, it's rather underwhelming for a 15th lvl+ caster.

[Story]

One of these things is not like the others. A reasonably optimized pickpocket rogue is a campaign-smasher, since there's basically no defense against a sufficiently-high Sleight of Hand. Need to get the Artifact of Great MacGuffinness away from the Evil Overlord? Just walk up to him and take it.

There are defenses against it, just not ones that enemies are likely to have by default.

[TuggyNE]

So you can still accomplish the pick pocket even if spotted? That sounds like a slippery slope.

Worse yet, you can still accomplish the pickpocketing as a free action (and therefore an indefinite number of times per round) even if spotted.

[Spuddles]

Worse yet, you can still accomplish the pickpocketing as a free action (and therefore an indefinite number of times per round) even if spotted.

If you can somehow make the DC50+ check. And the DM is free to limit your free actions per round.

[TuggyNE]

If you can somehow make the DC50+ check. And the DM is free to limit your free actions per round.

Check result of 40 or more until spotted, and then 50 or more (DC 20 and then 30 respectively, both with the -20 penalty).

But that's probably enough off the topic.

[LordBlades]

It really depends on the group. Persistent spell is incredibly powerful, especially in this context, but it's also predictably powerful from a DM standpoint. It's a lot easier for a DM to metagame counter someone when their buff list is basically always the same, even if it's large.



This can't be stressed enough.
It's much easier to DM for a char that has let's say 20 spell slots and uses 15 of them to persist buffs (90% of the time same buffs) than for a char that has 20 spell slots and fills them every day with a different spell selection that he thinks will be most appropriate for the challenges he expects to face.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sleight of Hand abuse only works if they're not wielding it, and you know where it is. So, if the idiot overlord stashed THE GLOWING ORB OF AWESOME right there in his pocket, sure, go for it. But if he's wielding the ORB, then you use a disarm check, which Mr. Pickpocket might have a harder time doing. And if he hid the ORB properly, well...

But in any event let's call him a trapfinding rogue with spring attack.

[Lactantius]

Besides the adventure difficulty and the smaller party setup which I have already mentioned, would it change the review if I would stick to a pretty small list of spells I would regularly use (not abuse) with metamagic effect?

I would go down and stick to:

shield, dragonskin, illykurs mantle, reverse arrows (even if it discharges), see invisibility and arcane sight.

Opinions?

What about the alternative to set persistant to +4 and use it normally?

[Aracor]

No to +4 and using it normally. It's clearly better than quicken because you don't need to use an action in combat to use it. If you're only using a few spells, it probably won't be too bad, but honestly I'd just avoid persist in general.

[Lactantius]

Oki, I'll cancel the Incantatrix then.
Maybe I stick to another 2,4-combo for my level 6-9.

Good choices seem:
- MotAO 2-4
- Fatespinner 2
- Paragnostic Apostle 1-4
- Rainbow Servant Dip 1 for full good domain access and detect evil at will
- Wayfarer Guide 1 Dip for stronger dimension door, teleports etc
- Divine Oracle 2 or 4 for some minor divination abilites
- Mindbender 1 is out since I play a good-aligned caster
- Master Specialist 3-6, depends if I specialize in abjuration or not, seems natural choice for my goal at level 10, Io7V.
Maybe even MS7 for the moderate school esoterica, but only with early entry at level 3 instead of 4.

Any further ideas? Suggestions?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you are taking Spontaneous Divination (and you should be), dip Ultimate Magus for a level. It is trivial to qualify for, gives you +1 CL to all your spells, and makes UMD a class skill for you. Especially if you are playing with fractional BAB and saves.

[Lactantius]

Interesting idea.
Though, I think it violates the RAI.
The Ultimate Magus was surely not designed to work for pure wizards with spont. divinations.
Another one of those dysfunctional rules?
IF the entry says "able to cast spontaenously," it is intended that the player picks up a core class like sorcerer, bard or beguiler.

That would go too far for our group.

But what do you playgrounders think about a rainbow servant dip?
It's like a free arcane disciple feat for the good domain without the Wisdom requirement.
And frankly, the good domain is.... well, GOOD!
Casting holy word, holy aura, blade barrier and aid is pretty strong, for a wizard, maybe to an extent gamebreaking. Cos, you know, holy word.
And detect evil at will is just handy.