Petrichor - stuffing meanings into words [Archive]

Morgarion

2013-09-19, 10:34 AM

I actually use 'petrichor' often, or at least about as often as it rains or I discuss rain or my favorite smells.

I'm a linguist by training, so I love language and I'm fascinated by the histories of words. Part of that is understanding the arbitrary relationship between a word and its meaning, between signifier and signified. Sure, there are historical reasons that words have particular meanings, but in and of themselves there's no reason that any one particular pattern of sounds is given any one meaning.

Having said that, to me there is something mystical in the connection between my favorite word and its meaning. Ησυχος /'isihos/ is a Greek word that means 'peaceful, quiet, calm', and I can just hear it in the word.

Topus

2013-09-19, 11:53 AM

I love language too, and i studied something about language structures (x-bar, c-command, pinker, chomsky, stuff like this). I also love ethimology and i'm quite fascinated by the indoeuropean language theory and sumerian language.
By the way, you are right, there are words that really embody their meaning even by their sound, i find the word "crystal" quite fitting.

As for my initial request i'm fascinated by single words that can describe a very specific emotion, or situation, as they enrich the language and they fulfill the purpose to enhance the effectiveness of comunication.

Morgarion

2013-09-19, 12:16 PM

Rock on. It's nice to speak with others who actually get linguistics. I've variously been asked, upon telling others what I studied, 'so, you just learned a bunch of different languages?' or 'what is that?'

I thought I was going to hate studying syntax, but I ended up actually getting a pretty big kick out of it. The only mandatory syntax class was the intro level one, but I took the next level and ended up writing my final project in syntax.

And, with the word I mentioned earlier, since I'm not a native speaker of Greek, I'm sure I'm attaching a connotation to it that it doesn't have, but it just sounds like some sort of transcendent serenity, like things are going the way they're supposed to according to some cosmic plan and everything's right with the world.

Brother Oni

2013-09-19, 12:26 PM

I believe German has a penchant for phrases that masquerade as words, which bolt on additional words to become even more specific.

Eldan

2013-09-19, 01:36 PM

Quite. Well, what German does at the basic level is write terms as one word. In English, you write "apple tree", in German we write "Apfelbaum", which is exactly the same, except that the two nouns are joined into one. "Apfel" is "apple", "Baum" is tree.

Then, of course, people invent new compound nouns for new things. English people know "Schadenfreude". "Schaden" is harm, "Freude" is joy, together they mean something quite a bit more complicated to explain.

We don't think of them as phrases. We think of them one word, just a longer one.

Brother Oni

2013-09-19, 01:46 PM

Topus

2013-09-19, 02:26 PM

@Morgarion: maybe the fact that the sound of Ησυχος is similar to the verb "ease" can trigger in an english speaker a sense of peace and relief from mundane things.

@Brother Oni: yes, i remember from philosophy studies that german language is quite effective in describing very specific concepts, making huge golems of words to became one :D
Pushing this to the limits i like agglutinative languages, as the ancient sumerian, making words joining the basic morphemes:
AN is the sky, KI is the earth, ANKI is the universe (sky+earth=everything)

Zaggab

2013-09-19, 02:29 PM

As an example:

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübert ragungsgesetz which breaks down to "beef labeling regulation & delegation of supervision law". :smallbiggrin:

I suspect you're probably giving Welsh a run for its money as language with the longest words. :smalltongue:

Swedish has the same thing going, where we put together many words into a bigger word with a different meaning. The downside of this, however, is that many people write the words seperate - "särskrivning", meaning "writing apart". Which gets funny when someone särskriver särskrvning, as "sär skrivning" could mean "odd writing".

Other examples:
Sjukgymnast = physiotherapist
Sjuk gymnast = sick gymnast

Kassapersonal = cashier staff
Kassa personal = shoddy personel

Rökfritt = no smoking
Rök fritt = smoke freely

Herrtoalett = men's room
Herr toalett = Mr Toilet

Giftorm = poisonous snake
Gift orm = married snake

(Yes, "gift" means both 'poison' and 'married')

Eldan

2013-09-19, 02:36 PM

As an example:

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübert ragungsgesetz which breaks down to "beef labeling regulation & delegation of supervision law". :smallbiggrin:

I suspect you're probably giving Welsh a run for its money as language with the longest words. :smalltongue:

Now think about how often you'd use that term in English. Yes, it's technically a word. No, no one has ever heard it or would use it. You can break it up.

A more likely formation would be:

"Gesetz zur Überwachung und Aufgabenübertragung der Ettiketierung von Rindfleisch"

I.e.
"Law for the Supervision and Delegation of the labeling of beef".

It really sounds like the kind of word someone made up for no other purpose than trying to make the longest word they could.

Topus

2013-09-19, 02:39 PM

Swedish has the same thing going, where we put together many words into a bigger word with a different meaning.for what i know in german the meaning is not different, it's the sum of the single words put together.

(Yes, "gift" means both 'poison' and 'married')this made my day :D

Eldan

2013-09-19, 02:43 PM

Not necessarily. Especially in philosophy, it is sometimes necessary to come up with a new word for a new concept. Yes, the parts of the word are related to the concept. But the whole has still a new meaning.

E.g. Schadenfreude again. Harm+joy becomes "amusment about the harm other's suffer". You have to know the meaning already, or you could do a lot of guessing about what it means. These two words together could just as well be an expression for, say, "gallow humour", i.e. making fun of your own misfortune.

Or Weltschmerz, is another one, though not one you hear often. Welt=world, Schmerz=pain. No, it's not pain that the world is suffering, even if these two words together could mean that.

Zaggab

2013-09-19, 02:46 PM

for what i know in german the meaning is not different, it's the sum of the single words put together.

Yeah, that's most often the case, but as you saw from theexamples I wrote, not always.

this made my day :D

You're welcome.

Someone told me that in Spanish, 'esposa' means wife, while 'esposas' means manacles. Could someone confirm that?

Topus

2013-09-19, 02:51 PM

Especially in philosophy, it is sometimes necessary to come up with a new word for a new concept. Yes, the parts of the word are related to the concept. But the whole has still a new meaning.
Yes you are right, but the meaning, as you said is related to the words used, it's not like the swedish Giftorm = poisonous snake Gift orm = married snake

Maybe, besides the same language roots, they have a different way to build composite words

Maelstrom

2013-09-19, 05:08 PM

Yeah, that's most often the case, but as you saw from theexamples I wrote, not always.

You're welcome.

Someone told me that in Spanish, 'esposa' means wife, while 'esposas' means manacles. Could someone confirm that?

http://translate.google.com/#es/en/esposas

It would appear so...

Grinner

2013-09-19, 07:09 PM

I'm a linguist by training, so I love language and I'm fascinated by the histories of words. Part of that is understanding the arbitrary relationship between a word and its meaning, between signifier and signified. Sure, there are historical reasons that words have particular meanings, but in and of themselves there's no reason that any one particular pattern of sounds is given any one meaning.

Take a look at this picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Booba-Kiki.svg

One of these shapes is called bouba. The other is called kiki.

Guess which is bouba and which is kiki. After you do so, view the spoiler box below.

Let me guess. You said the first was kiki and the second was bouba?

What's interesting is that this experiment has been performed in both America and India, with the same results. Most individuals call the first kiki and the second bouba, and the effect crosses languages.

One exception is autistics, who tend not to favor one over the other.

Either way, it demonstrates that words are not constructed arbitrarily.

Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect)

GolemsVoice

2013-09-19, 07:24 PM

Eldan, the law actually existed. It even has it's own Wikipedia page, look here! (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben %C3%BCbertragungsgesetz)
The page says the law caused "laughter" among the MPs. Amusingly, the word-monster is the official SHORT form. The long form is formed like you proposed.

Serpentine

2013-09-20, 12:16 AM

I feel vaguely dirty bringing in more German... (:smalltongue:) but one of my favourite concepts is Chaoskampf: the conflict between order and chaos embodied in a battle between a culture hero and a dragon or serpent. Once you know the concept, you just can't stop seeing it everywhere in mythology and creation stories, and even modern pop culture (Mario vs. Bowser, perhaps?).

A while ago a couple of friends and I were flipping through a big, old set of dictionaries for funsies (I know, we're a wild bunch). We came across a few good words, but sadly I can't remember any of them. The one I'm most annoyed at forgetting meant something like "to walk in an ungainly, clumsy or uncoordinated way", and it's really really annoying me that I can't remember what it was. I remember it was a short word, one syllable of 4 or 5 letters, and it looked or sounded similar to a few other words but was a completely different one (not a homonym or anything). Gonna drive me mental...

Brother Oni

2013-09-20, 02:13 AM

Pushing this to the limits i like agglutinative languages, as the ancient sumerian, making words joining the basic morphemes:
AN is the sky, KI is the earth, ANKI is the universe (sky+earth=everything)

Chinese also does this a lot, from two characters stuck together to make something new, eg. 日本 (Japan) being built from 'Sun' and 'Origin', to combining characters to make a new word, eg. 森 (forest) which is 'Tree' stacked three times.

You have to be careful with some place names and loan words though - a train (火车) is not literally a 'fire car'. :smallbiggrin:

Elemental

2013-09-20, 03:00 AM

A while ago a couple of friends and I were flipping through a big, old set of dictionaries for funsies (I know, we're a wild bunch). We came across a few good words, but sadly I can't remember any of them. The one I'm most annoyed at forgetting meant something like "to walk in an ungainly, clumsy or uncoordinated way", and it's really really annoying me that I can't remember what it was. I remember it was a short word, one syllable of 4 or 5 letters, and it looked or sounded similar to a few other words but was a completely different one (not a homonym or anything). Gonna drive me mental...

Damn... I just tried looking up such a word on Google with the definition you provided. This thread was the third link! You're right about the being driven mental part, I can feel it starting as I type this.

As for petrichor, I found it poetic because to my eyes it seems to translate as "Blood of the Earth", ichor being the blood of the gods in Greek mythology. Of course, now that I think of it more, it's actually rather disturbing to think that the Earth bleeds after rain... Perhaps petrichor wasn't the best choice of word with all things in consideration...

PersonMan

2013-09-20, 03:37 AM

It really sounds like the kind of word someone made up for no other purpose than trying to make the longest word they could.

I'm the kind of person who does this.

Whenever I can, I shove words together to make big ones. I mean, if you can do it in German, why not enjoy it? It's a feature English doesn't have.

SiuiS

2013-09-20, 03:47 AM

I actually use 'petrichor' often, or at least about as often as it rains or I discuss rain or my favorite smells.

Aye. It's always been a delightful sensation. Having a word for it just makes it that much better.

Rock on. It's nice to speak with others who actually get linguistics. I've variously been asked, upon telling others what I studied, 'so, you just learned a bunch of different languages?' or 'what is that?'

How does one begin to break in, here? I've always loved language and such but there's no easy way to start breaking things apart that doesn't require already knowing a minimum amount... It's like everything but the most basic concepts are all locked behind an apprenticeship, since they won't begin to make sense without someone leading the way.

Take a look at this picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Booba-Kiki.svg

One of these shapes is called bouba. The other is called kiki.

Synesthesia is a vaguely naturally occurring thing. It's part of how we adapt to sensory information we need but don't have - people can often hear sounds they see the impetus of but are too far away for, for example.

I switch the two, myself. Kiki sounds like a flowing molasses-y goop.

Damn... I just tried looking up such a word on Google with the definition you provided. This thread was the third link! You're right about the being driven mental part, I can feel it starting as I type this.

As for petrichor, I found it poetic because to my eyes it seems to translate as "Blood of the Earth", ichor being the blood of the gods in Greek mythology. Of course, now that I think of it more, it's actually rather disturbing to think that the Earth bleeds after rain...

Ohmigosh that's beautiful :smalleek:

Dihan

2013-09-20, 04:05 AM

I suspect you're probably giving Welsh a run for its money as language with the longest words. :smalltongue:

The majority of Welsh words aren't that long. Sure, there's Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerwchwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch but that's just a place. For all the ysgrifenyddion and daearyddiaeth athrawesau ac athrawon in the world we've got things like ci, iâ and pys. :smalltongue:

BWR

2013-09-20, 04:22 AM

Regarding the word 'gift' as both 'poison' and 'married' in Scandinavian languges.
Both have the same origin in the common Germanic root for 'give'.

A marriage is a ritual where someone is given to another. A gift is somthing that is given. It's just that the form 'gift(e)' was retained when the 'f' disappeared written form of the general sense of the word.

Poison referred to as 'gift' started in Germany, iirc, , i.e. something given, or a dose. English adopted the French word, adopted from the Latin 'potere' , 'to drink'.

Themrys

2013-09-20, 05:29 AM

I believe German has a penchant for phrases that masquerade as words, which bolt on additional words to become even more specific.

Well, more than English, but German is not an agglutinative language. Meaning sentences are still sentences, and not glued together to form one single word.

It is possible to form very long correct words in German, but most of the time, it is not done.

However, you can have some fun with German compound words and their double meanings.

"Jägerschnitzel" is a schnitzel for hunters, or "as eaten by hunters", or something, while "Schweineschnitzel" is not for pigs, but made of pigs.
You can only tell the difference because you know that we don't eat hunters but do eat pigs.

@BWR: Interesting. I wonder whether that is because it was always used euphemistically, so the real word was forgotten, or whether our ancestors just didn't murder with poison that often and therefore had no word for it.

Morgarion

2013-09-20, 07:53 AM

Aye. It's always been a delightful sensation. Having a word for it just makes it that much better.

How does one begin to break in, here? I've always loved language and such but there's no easy way to start breaking things apart that doesn't require already knowing a minimum amount... It's like everything but the most basic concepts are all locked behind an apprenticeship, since they won't begin to make sense without someone leading the way.

Yeah, it can be expensive to learn, especially if you want to be credentialed. You can try and audit an intro class or two, get your hand on some good text books (these are few and far between in Linguistics, though), find people who are willing and happy to help you understand.

Either way, it demonstrates that words are not constructed arbitrarily.

I don't know that it relates to what I was saying, because in historical terms, you're absolutely correct. We build new words from words and morphemes we already have. Languages change in systematic ways. I'm not doubting any of that.

But to suggest that people who already have language, who are necessarily influenced by its connotations and completely incapable, by virtue of the fact that they are human beings, of divorcing themselves and their thoughts from language, have consistent preferences in this experiment hardly begins to cast doubt on the arbitrary relationship between signifier and signified. This experiment can't support the claim that there's some relationship between the shape and the sound pattern in general, only that there is or might be one through a language.

After all, if a word's meaning wasn't arbitrary, if there was a reason that trees, for instance, get called 'trees', why weren't they called as such in Old English? Why are they 'arboles' in Spanish and 'dendra' in Greek and whatever they are in Igbo?

Eldan

2013-09-20, 07:55 AM

I've always wondered. Is there really no English word for "Schnitzel"? I mean, it's really just "a thin cut of meat that you fry in a pan". Surely, that can't be such an uncommon and special recipe.

Gravitron5000

2013-09-20, 08:22 AM

I've always wondered. Is there really no English word for "Schnitzel"? I mean, it's really just "a thin cut of meat that you fry in a pan". Surely, that can't be such an uncommon and special recipe.

The english word for Schnitzel is schnitzel. It's what we do :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS

2013-09-20, 08:28 AM

I've always wondered. Is there really no English word for "Schnitzel"? I mean, it's really just "a thin cut of meat that you fry in a pan". Surely, that can't be such an uncommon and special recipe.

Is that what schnitzel is? I always imagined it to be some form of pastry.

The english word for Schnitzel is schnitzel. It's what we do :smallbiggrin:

We would also accept bacon.

Eldan

2013-09-20, 08:32 AM

This is what Schnitzel means in German:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Schweineschnitzel.jpg/220px-Schweineschnitzel.jpg

Specifically, that's a piece of pork.

Apparently, Wiki tells me, in English, schnitzel only means what Germans call a "Wiener Schnitzel", which is prepared in a specific way, namely dunked in egg, flour and bread crumbs:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Wiener-Schnitzel02.jpg

Apparently, the French word "escalope" can also be used in English, but I can't say I've heard it before.

Grinner

2013-09-20, 08:47 AM

I don't know that it relates to what I was saying, because in historical terms, you're absolutely correct. We build new words from words and morphemes we already have. Languages change in systematic ways. I'm not doubting any of that.

Perhaps there's been some kind of miscommunication. I don't think I ever addressed the evolution of languages.

But to suggest that people who already have language, who are necessarily influenced by its connotations and completely incapable, by virtue of the fact that they are human beings, of divorcing themselves and their thoughts from language, have consistent preferences in this experiment hardly begins to cast doubt on the arbitrary relationship between signifier and signified. This experiment can't support the claim that there's some relationship between the shape and the sound pattern in general, only that there is or might be one through a language.

After all, if a word's meaning wasn't arbitrary, if there was a reason that trees, for instance, get called 'trees', why weren't they called as such in Old English? Why are they 'arboles' in Spanish and 'dendra' in Greek and whatever they are in Igbo?

...But the experiment did demonstrate that people from different cultures and using different languages (English, Spanish, and Tamil) all showed certain strikingly similar preferences. They cannot be wholly determinant, given the fact that different languages have different words for the same concept, but the influence does exist. Therefore, the formulation of words cannot be said to be entirely arbitrary.

Edit:
I've always wondered. Is there really no English word for "Schnitzel"? I mean, it's really just "a thin cut of meat that you fry in a pan". Surely, that can't be such an uncommon and special recipe.

To quote one James Nicoll:

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

Eldan

2013-09-20, 08:53 AM

I know that and I know it's true, yes. Though, really, it's true for most languages I know.

I'm just wondering why England never bothered to make their own word for "thin cut of meat" before they stole the German word. I mean, a lot of the loan words are for new concepts that didn't exist. This sounds like one of the oldest possible concepts, somewhere between words for "rock" and "ground".

Grinner

2013-09-20, 08:56 AM

Surprisingly, I can think of words for so many kinds of cuts of meat, but not one for a thinly cut piece.

How about steak? No, that's too bovine-centric...Perhaps chop, as in pork chop or lamb chop?

Eldan

2013-09-20, 09:03 AM

Interestingly, Steak is one which is used as a loanword in German. It seems to mean anything thicker than a Schnitzel and not necessarily beef, either. I.e. there's "Schweinssteak", pork steak.

Wiktionary suggests "cutlet". Though I always thought a "cotelette" - i.e. the French word which is also used as a loanword in German - has a bone in it, while a Schnitzel doesn't.

Morgarion

2013-09-20, 09:04 AM

Google translate concurs on 'cutlet'. Sounds right to me.

zabbarot

2013-09-20, 09:39 AM

On the topic of Schnitzel: For the most part any time you flatten out a piece of meat the dish you're making has a specific name, so you just call it that. The only other specific thing I can think of is a roulade, where you flatten out a cut and then roll up seasoning and other ingredients in the meat before roasting it. It's probably obvious that roulade just means rolled. We don't even have a specific word that means "flattening meat" in English.

What percentage of loan words in English are just related to food? It almost feels like the Brits just sailed around the world stealing cuisine.

SiuiS

2013-09-20, 09:51 AM

That top one looks like a rasher of bacon. I am vindicated XD

Wiener schnitzel confuses me >_>

Serpentine

2013-09-20, 10:00 AM

What about fillet? And I've used steak for things other than beef: ham steak and salmon steak, mostly.

zabbarot

2013-09-20, 10:07 AM

What about fillet? And I've used steak for things other than beef: ham steak and salmon steak, mostly.

Fillet specifically means boneless, and cutlet tends to imply a cut with a rib.
Also as a verb to fillet is to remove bones from fish.
Also also fillet is English by way of France :smalltongue:

Edit: brain and fingers had a disagreement

Morgarion

2013-09-20, 10:09 AM

Also as a noun to fillet is to remove bones from fish.

I think you mean a verb.

And yeah, steaks are for tuna and swordfish and all sorts of other things too.

Jormengand

2013-09-20, 01:26 PM

Someone told me that in Spanish, 'esposa' means wife, while 'esposas' means manacles. Could someone confirm that?

Yeah, espadas also means both Spades and swords.

Grinner

2013-09-20, 01:43 PM

Yeah, espadas also means both Spades and swords.

Spades as in shovels, or spades as in playing card suit?

Elemental

2013-09-20, 10:25 PM

Ohmigosh that's beautiful :smalleek:

Well, I thought the same, until I realised just what the connotations of being able to smell the Earth's blood meant.

What percentage of loan words in English are just related to food? It almost feels like the Brits just sailed around the world stealing cuisine.

I feel like this is the point where someone would make the obligatory joke concerning English food, but as an Australian, I think it would be proper to leave that joke up to someone from England.

Brother Oni

2013-09-21, 08:07 AM

Also also fillet is English by way of France :smalltongue:

All our words for cooked meat are derived from French, while the word for the animal they're made from are saxon.

Blame the Normans for this. :smalltongue:

I feel like this is the point where someone would make the obligatory joke concerning English food, but as an Australian, I think it would be proper to leave that joke up to someone from England.

Since the Olympics, the infamy of our cooking has spread far and wide. :smallsigh:

That said, very little beats English cooking for puddings. :smalltongue:

Goosefeather

2013-09-21, 08:19 AM

Yeah, espadas also means both Spades and swords.

Not reeeally. The Spanish card deck has a suit called 'espadas' (swords), which is known as 'spade' in Italian ('una spada' = 'a sword', pluralising to 'spade'). For this reason, the Spanish suit "swords" is sometimes known as 'spades' in English. However, the suit we normally call 'spades' is actually known as 'picas' in Spanish, and the actual digging tool is a 'pala'. To say that 'espadas = Spades' is kind of misleading, for this reason.

Interestingly, it seems (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spade) that in English we get the name of the suit from Italian 'spade', but the digging tool 'spade' is of Germanic origin - yet both originally derive from the same Proto-Indo-European term.

'Esposas' meaning both 'wives/spouses' and 'handcuffs' is perfectly valid though.

A while ago a couple of friends and I were flipping through a big, old set of dictionaries for funsies (I know, we're a wild bunch). We came across a few good words, but sadly I can't remember any of them. The one I'm most annoyed at forgetting meant something like "to walk in an ungainly, clumsy or uncoordinated way", and it's really really annoying me that I can't remember what it was. I remember it was a short word, one syllable of 4 or 5 letters, and it looked or sounded similar to a few other words but was a completely different one (not a homonym or anything). Gonna drive me mental...

'Lurch'? 'Reel'? 'Yaw'?

SaintRidley

2013-09-21, 12:37 PM

After all, if a word's meaning wasn't arbitrary, if there was a reason that trees, for instance, get called 'trees', why weren't they called as such in Old English? Why are they 'arboles' in Spanish and 'dendra' in Greek and whatever they are in Igbo?

Old English treow is the same word, just without some of the sound changes English has undergone under the last thousand years to arrive at tree as the spelling and pronunciation.

Serpentine

2013-09-21, 11:41 PM

'Lurch'? 'Reel'? 'Yaw'?I know the first two very well and it was an entirely new word to me, and the third is the wrong size and sound and shape. It was something more like "swank" (except not that).

SiuiS

2013-09-22, 12:05 AM

Well, I thought the same, until I realised just what the connotations of being able to smell the Earth's blood meant.

We have different connotations of blood then.

Eldan

2013-09-22, 06:16 AM

I know the first two very well and it was an entirely new word to me, and the third is the wrong size and sound and shape. It was something more like "swank" (except not that).

Stagger? Sway? Waver?

Can't think of any others that are similar.

Serpentine

2013-09-22, 06:53 AM

No no and no. It was a word I'd never heard of before, all of those ones are common.

Taet

2013-09-22, 10:16 AM

Brother Oni

2013-09-22, 10:56 AM

I can stop that working. Write bouba and kiki with a different alphabet.

It doesn't matter what alphabet or romanisation you use, it's the overall sound of the word that matters. According to the link, the initial experiment had 'takete' and 'baluba'.

You could make your own words up, but as long as one sounds harder and more forceful than the other, that one will tend to be assigned to the first shape. Trying to break the experiment by using more ambiguous sounds defeats the point of the experiment as it gives you very little information.

Arkhosia

2013-09-22, 05:04 PM

My favorite is defenestration, the act of sending a person out a window and also a term for kicking out a person from a seat of power

Topus

2013-09-23, 07:41 AM

Take a look at this picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Booba-Kiki.svg

One of these shapes is called bouba. The other is called kiki.

Guess which is bouba and which is kiki. After you do so, view the spoiler box below.

Let me guess. You said the first was kiki and the second was bouba?

What's interesting is that this experiment has been performed in both America and India, with the same results. Most individuals call the first kiki and the second bouba, and the effect crosses languages.

One exception is autistics, who tend not to favor one over the other.

Either way, it demonstrates that words are not constructed arbitrarily.

Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect)

I think this kind of experiment is intended for inference on neurological processes behind human language, but in this case it's somehow distorted by etymological causes. If the experiment has been run only in America and India we have persona speaking languages from the same family: English and Hindi are both Indo-European languages, thus sharing many common roots and structures. But I don't know if some dravidian family language speaker has been asked about the pictures. By the way, to infer something we should ask to people who speak languages from many different families. I don't know if click languages speakers from Africa will answer in the same way about bouba an kiki :smallbiggrin:

edit: shame on me, i didn't read the wikipedia link. It appears that they where american and tamil students. That's better, but still in India the dominating culture is of Hindi roots, and they constantly hear hindi words, this can have some effect.

HeadlessMermaid

2013-09-23, 04:02 PM

I just discovered the existence of the word "petrichor", that stands for "the scent of rain on dry earth". Besides it was coined in the sixties for scientific purposes it has such a poetic and romantic meaning that sounds like an ancient word from an old poem.
I like this kind of words, that represent complex feelings, or very specific situations. Do you know other similar words?
Thanks.

I once heard an English speaker who's been living in Greece for many years say that her favorite Greek word is καρεκλοκένταυρος (kareklo'kentavros).

It's a compound word, from the words "chair" and "centaur" - a centaur who is half man/half chair, instead of the traditional half man/half horse.

Here's what it means. "Chair" is often used for "seat", as in "seat of office", in a derogatory manner. For example: That politician doesn't have principles, all he cares about is his chair. (Meaning, he cares only about the status and privileges of his office, but not about the responsibilities that come with it.) Or: That guy would sell his own grandmother for a chair. (Self-explanatory.)

So a chair-centaur is someone so enamored with his seat of office, that you literally can't get him off the damn thing. He has fused with it, and become a magical creature. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2013-10-02, 02:21 PM

Heh, in English, that would probably be called a be a chair-taur, because retroactive suffixes are always fun.

shadow_archmagi

2013-10-02, 04:43 PM

Not necessarily. Especially in philosophy, it is sometimes necessary to come up with a new word for a new concept. Yes, the parts of the word are related to the concept. But the whole has still a new meaning.

E.g. Schadenfreude again. Harm+joy becomes "amusment about the harm other's suffer". You have to know the meaning already, or you could do a lot of guessing about what it means. These two words together could just as well be an expression for, say, "gallow humour", i.e. making fun of your own misfortune.

It's a linguistics thread, so I feel justified in pointing out that it should be others, not other's.

I also think it's worth noting that English also has many compound words that have meanings very different from their roots. Forecast, microphone, bellhop, etc.

EDIT: Wheelhouse, blockbuster, backdrop.