Help Creating a Villain (new dm 3.5)

[Drackstin]

A bunch of my friends wanted to play 3.5 and i offered to DM. I'm 2 sessions in and i wanted to have the main villain of the story created. i have his back story, and what he is doing, but i need some help picking classes and adding a few story arcs.

the villain is a Vasharan. and he works in the backround. normal sending his lowers to do things. his main goal to total world domination and slavery, so he may gain enough power to fight the gods. he hates all races and cares not what he must sacrifice to get what he needs but will use anyone he can for an advantage.

i want him to be strong caster but still have a good melee ability.

his back story, this is the second time trying to take over the plane. in his first try he gained immortality, but was sealed away by 6 champions that gave their souls to imprison him. the 6 soul stones were lost to time.

the story going on right now is, the group has been hired by one of the largest city's on the plane to investigate strange things that are happening around the world. the leaders of this city don't thing any of its connected and do not see it as a big enough threat to involve their own military.

after completing a small mission to prove they could handle themselves, they were sent to the capital city to see whats going on there. on there way they find a small town devastated with zombies and find a lone survivor a 10 year old boy. he tells them of a mean wizard that lived in a tower out side of town but left 3 years ago, but tells them that the zombies started attacking 3 weeks ago. after investigating the tower the found the wizards book of event that say why he left "a quest for power", later they will find out that he set the main villain free 3 weeks ago and got awarded the most fitting prize, death.

when they get to the capital city they will find out its under siege by orcs, and there is a strange necromancer helping them (lackey of the main villain)

thats what i have so far. but i want to make the villain so i have something to base off his plans and tactics.

thank you.

[John Longarrow]

Beguiler - 4, then a level in crusader, then urpriest-2, then Mystic Thurge (urpriest and beguiler)? Finish with 3 more levels in Beguiler or more crusader, depending on preference, before epic?

4 levels in Beguiler only give 2 BAB, urpriest and thurge and weak on BAB, so if you really want this guy to be good in combat you may want

Beguiler 4 - 2 BAB
Crusader 1 - 1 BAB
Urpriest 2 - 1 BAB
Mystic Thurge 8 - 4 BAB
Crusader 5 - 5 BAB

Gives you 13 BAB at 20th, but 12 levels of Beguiler and 10 levels of urpriest for casting. Pretty much a 1 man party since he can also handle traps and be sneaky.

[Drackstin]

Beguiler - 4, then a level in crusader, then urpriest-2, then Mystic Thurge (urpriest and beguiler)? Finish with 3 more levels in Beguiler or more crusader, depending on preference, before epic?

4 levels in Beguiler only give 2 BAB, urpriest and thurge and weak on BAB, so if you really want this guy to be good in combat you may want

Beguiler 4 - 2 BAB
Crusader 1 - 1 BAB
Urpriest 2 - 1 BAB
Mystic Thurge 8 - 4 BAB
Crusader 5 - 5 BAB

Gives you 13 BAB at 20th, but 12 levels of Beguiler and 10 levels of urpriest for casting. Pretty much a 1 man party since he can also handle traps and be sneaky.

I like the way this build looks, it makes him an all around bad guy. what feats would go good with the fluff or his end goal of fighting the gods?

[Kol Korran]

I'm kinda crap at builds, but I do have some more general advice:
1) The giant made a very interesting article called The Villain Workshop (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html). It is quite excellent, and I highly recommend you check it out.

2) Another great article by Dust is Building a Villain 101: The 5 Ls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170628). Very good, The "limitations" step helped me quite a bit.

3) I suggest not to make it 20th level or epic right away. It makes it unbelievable that he has trouble with the party that foils his plans time and time again, when he could use his awesome powers and wipe them of the face of the earth. I suggest to make him about 6-8 level above them, and let him gain levels as well, though perhaps slower.

4) A good villain is defined by an emotional investment of the players (Not characters! If they dislike him that's good too, but you want the players' attention). Have him face the party a few times, and screw with them, effectively (perhaps killing some, but that is really not necessary). You can betray them, use them, hurt whom they love, best them, hurt their gear, make them look like fools and so much more. In short- make it personal.

5) Make a few mini villains, that the party can vent their frustration upon, and which can add to the villain by the way they relate to him. supporting cast as it is.

Read the articles, they are really great! :smallamused:

[John Longarrow]

For the villian I proposed, start out with Education (Eberon) and Iron Will. Education gives you all knowledge skills, something you need to meet the knowlege(planes) requirement. At 3rd, grab Spell focus (EVIL) and you can meet all the pre-request when you grab crusader as your 5th character level.

For the remaining 5 feats (prior to 20th)? Depends on how you want to run your BBEG and what you want them to be able to do.

As he is already sending out undead, I'd say grab Corps Crafter to make them even better.

When I run, I tend to make my NPCs face the same restrictions as the PCs, so you may want him to have leadership (gotta love having a cult) so that he has mooks to send out.

If he's going to have a lot of Crusader (for survivability and combat ability) you may want him to grab practices spellcaster for Beguiler to up his caster level.

After that it really does wind up as "What will he specialize in?". I'd stay away from any of the feats to give you a bonus to skills. Too easy to buy items that do better. Likewise item creation sounds like its something he'd use others for so he doesn't have to spend XPs.

He may be 20th level, but outside of divine casting he's going to feel like a 12-13th level character.

His biggest weakness is that he didn't focus on one area. This should let the players outdo him in most areas where he has to face them head on, but he'd still have ways to avoid being personally defeated.

[Drackstin]

I'm kinda crap at builds, but I do have some more general advice:
1) The giant made a very interesting article called The Villain Workshop (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html). It is quite excellent, and I highly recommend you check it out.

2) Another great article by Dust is Building a Villain 101: The 5 Ls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170628). Very good, The "limitations" step helped me quite a bit.

3) I suggest not to make it 20th level or epic right away. It makes it unbelievable that he has trouble with the party that foils his plans time and time again, when he could use his awesome powers and wipe them of the face of the earth. I suggest to make him about 6-8 level above them, and let him gain levels as well, though perhaps slower.

4) A good villain is defined by an emotional investment of the players (Not characters! If they dislike him that's good too, but you want the players' attention). Have him face the party a few times, and screw with them, effectively (perhaps killing some, but that is really not necessary). You can betray them, use them, hurt whom they love, best them, hurt their gear, make them look like fools and so much more. In short- make it personal.

5) Make a few mini villains, that the party can vent their frustration upon, and which can add to the villain by the way they relate to him. supporting cast as it is.

Read the articles, they are really great! :smallamused:

thanks for the links, it helped with the design alot.


For the villian I proposed, start out with Education (Eberon) and Iron Will. Education gives you all knowledge skills, something you need to meet the knowlege(planes) requirement. At 3rd, grab Spell focus (EVIL) and you can meet all the pre-request when you grab crusader as your 5th character level.

For the remaining 5 feats (prior to 20th)? Depends on how you want to run your BBEG and what you want them to be able to do.

As he is already sending out undead, I'd say grab Corps Crafter to make them even better.

When I run, I tend to make my NPCs face the same restrictions as the PCs, so you may want him to have leadership (gotta love having a cult) so that he has mooks to send out.

If he's going to have a lot of Crusader (for survivability and combat ability) you may want him to grab practices spellcaster for Beguiler to up his caster level.

After that it really does wind up as "What will he specialize in?". I'd stay away from any of the feats to give you a bonus to skills. Too easy to buy items that do better. Likewise item creation sounds like its something he'd use others for so he doesn't have to spend XPs.

He may be 20th level, but outside of divine casting he's going to feel like a 12-13th level character.

His biggest weakness is that he didn't focus on one area. This should let the players outdo him in most areas where he has to face them head on, but he'd still have ways to avoid being personally defeated.

after looking up some more info i was thinking duskblade might be better then beguilder. he won't lose a spell casting level for taking crusader since it won't be needed, and he will have a high BAB. and after reading Ur-Priest my spell levels of other casters stack, so the 8 lvls of mystic and the 5 of duskblade will give me 13 divine caster level, or at lvl 20 is i go 5 more duskblade. ill have 18 arcane and 15 divine.

any thoughts on that, and after looking at the feats, i need to use up my first and third level feat and my race bonus feat to get into UR.

[John Longarrow]

Personally I prefer the spell list for Beguiler over Duskblade. Also Duskblade doesn't get Bluff as a class skill, so to have a PC legal build you'd have to get it added some how.

As you are starting out with a low level party I'm assuming you don't want them to face him any time soon. Duskblade doesn't give much that is useful out of combat, but beguiler gives a LOT of "Control and Influence", especially with its skill set.

The last 5 levels in Crusader give a lot of power though, since his initiator level would be 9 at 16th (5th level maneuvers) and he'd go up to an initiator of 13. This effectively gives him most of the strengths of a 13th level party without going too nuts.

Alternately build him as a Bard instead of Beguiler and you'll get a lot more manipulative strength.

If you just want straight Arcane power, the other way to go would be:
Character levels 1-4 in wizard (First 3 feats = Combat Casting, Dodge, Iron Will)
Character levels 5-6 in Crusader (or any other full BAB class)
Character Level 7 SpellSword
Character Level 8 DragonSlayer
Character levels 9-13 Abjurant Champion
Character level 14 Mindbender
Character levels 15-20 ??? (Away from books)

At 14th level this guy has 11 BAB and a caster level of 12, plus telepathy. From here you can either look at upping arcane power or grabbing a little more melee.

[Dr. Cliché]

Found an old WotC article you might find useful for villains in general:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090602071336/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/vb/20070323a

[Drackstin]

Personally I prefer the spell list for Beguiler over Duskblade. Also Duskblade doesn't get Bluff as a class skill, so to have a PC legal build you'd have to get it added some how.

As you are starting out with a low level party I'm assuming you don't want them to face him any time soon. Duskblade doesn't give much that is useful out of combat, but beguiler gives a LOT of "Control and Influence", especially with its skill set.

The last 5 levels in Crusader give a lot of power though, since his initiator level would be 9 at 16th (5th level maneuvers) and he'd go up to an initiator of 13. This effectively gives him most of the strengths of a 13th level party without going too nuts.

Alternately build him as a Bard instead of Beguiler and you'll get a lot more manipulative strength.

If you just want straight Arcane power, the other way to go would be:
Character levels 1-4 in wizard (First 3 feats = Combat Casting, Dodge, Iron Will)
Character levels 5-6 in Crusader (or any other full BAB class)
Character Level 7 SpellSword
Character Level 8 DragonSlayer
Character levels 9-13 Abjurant Champion
Character level 14 Mindbender
Character levels 15-20 ??? (Away from books)

At 14th level this guy has 11 BAB and a caster level of 12, plus telepathy. From here you can either look at upping arcane power or grabbing a little more melee.

i thought you could CC bluff with duskblade to me the requirement.

After going over the builds i like the first one the most for the fluff. the ur-priest really suits him seeing he wants to kill the gods themselfs so stealing their power really fits. but could i swop out mystic with true necro. it adds to both arcane and divine casting has a higher BAB and has some ability to boot.

[John Longarrow]

Drackstin
Duskblade can take bluff as a cross class skill, but max ranks are limited to 1/2 (character level +3). To get the 6 ranks you need, you'd have to wait until 9th character level.

For your villan, do you want him to be doing most of this on his own? My guess is no. As such, you'll want to start looking for what spells you think he would want to grab to allow him to control others (either directly like Charms or indirectly by boosting his diplomacy/intimidate). Duskblade doesn't give much that is really useful outside of combat.

[Drackstin]

Drackstin
Duskblade can take bluff as a cross class skill, but max ranks are limited to 1/2 (character level +3). To get the 6 ranks you need, you'd have to wait until 9th character level.

For your villan, do you want him to be doing most of this on his own? My guess is no. As such, you'll want to start looking for what spells you think he would want to grab to allow him to control others (either directly like Charms or indirectly by boosting his diplomacy/intimidate). Duskblade doesn't give much that is really useful outside of combat.

i was looking at the duskblade and i do like the beguiler a lot better for spell selection.

he will most likely not show up for some time and he well be having his lackeys doing most of the work for the time being. i also can't think of a reason that he just doesn't show up and wipe the party out, other then he doesn't think they are a threat, and that can only go on for so long.

i would like to keep Ur-priest in his levels.

[John Longarrow]

Drackstin

What kind of lackies is he using? Also, why do his minions work for him? Depending on WHY said lackies are willing to do stuff for him (and how you want to organize them) you can get a good idea of what abilities you want him to have.

As an example, I've got a BBEG I'm working out. Almost entirely built on classes out of Tome of Battle. He's a nasty melee combatant who also has a good charisma and is smart. He's running an empire in the makings because he and his party (Elvish wizard that's infatuated with him, Cleric of Hextor, and Swordsage/Rogue) started out by taking over hobgoblin bands. He'd go in, challenge their leader, and then demonstrate he was a much better fighter AND leader.

He's got good diplomatic skills, good tactical skills, and is really nasty in a fight. He's also good at startegy and has been using the organized hobgoblins to take over orc bands. The wizard has been doing fun stuff controlling Trolls and Ogres to lend muscle, then they started mass enslavement of Goblins.

For his build I'm just making sure his sense motive, bluff, intimidate, and diplomacy are sky high. He rules by being able to persuade his followers to follow him while backing up his policies with ruthless effeciency on the battle field. This also pretty much lines up who the lesser BBEGs will be (mostly hobgoblin Crusader/Warblades or spell casters) and what the lesser minions will be.

[Drackstin]

Drackstin

What kind of lackies is he using? Also, why do his minions work for him? Depending on WHY said lackies are willing to do stuff for him (and how you want to organize them) you can get a good idea of what abilities you want him to have.

well at the moment, he is immortal. this is his second time trying to destroy the plane. the first time he did was a very long time ago, and they only got rid of him by sealing him away. so he will be very powerful. he isn't a toe to toe fighter. he would be a mix of strong magic and some fighting capability's. he mostly draws in lackeys by his ability to inspire them into thinking gods are not as powerful as people think. from his bonus feet BLESSING OF THE GODLESS. he conquers by tipping the balance of power, were he will again an alliance by promising power to a weaker group if they will "allow" him to help them, and after they accomplish this goal letting them be, knowing he can destroy them at any time. (atm in the story, he is "helping" a very large tribe of orcs attack a HighElf capital city by granting them mass teleportation and a few necromancers to bring back the fallen orcs during attacks. the orc are attack all 4 sides of the city at once.

he is also pulling stunts like this at most of the main cities on the plane at once. but only by aiding groups already there so not to pull attention to himself.

i hope that helps, his main goal is to conquer the plane to the effect of weaking the gods, the less followers they have the weaker they are and the closer to killing them himself he is.

[John Longarrow]

Drackstin

Have you already worked out how your BBEG is providing mass teleportation? If so, that may already determine some of how he's built.

[Drackstin]

Drackstin

Have you already worked out how your BBEG is providing mass teleportation? If so, that may already determine some of how he's built.

he sent 3 level 14 wizards and 2 lvl 10 necromancers to assist the attacks.

i like the idea of him having the versatility of a wizard though.

[John Longarrow]

Ah, so he's already got some high level henchmen...

Going Wizard may be a bit redundant, but doing beguiler/Ur priest definitely gives a good "Controller" feel that would help keep the wizards in line. Especially if dealing with wizards who don't want to become undead, the whole "If you serve me, I will bring you back with full vigor and health" (reincarnate or true reincarnate, pulled off with a miracle) would be a very good reason for them to serve.

This also means you can rely upon him for a lot more than just arcane power. He'll let his lackies handle that stuff. :smallcool:

[Drackstin]

Ah, so he's already got some high level henchmen...

Going Wizard may be a bit redundant, but doing beguiler/Ur priest definitely gives a good "Controller" feel that would help keep the wizards in line. Especially if dealing with wizards who don't want to become undead, the whole "If you serve me, I will bring you back with full vigor and health" (reincarnate or true reincarnate, pulled off with a miracle) would be a very good reason for them to serve.

This also means you can rely upon him for a lot more than just arcane power. He'll let his lackies handle that stuff. :smallcool:

taking the fluff of his race, and adding the fluff of ur-priest make it seem like his goal was his goal from birth. if i play around with it enough i can make him the first of his race, then its a personal vendetta to kill the gods.

i was reading something about a savage bard and sublime chord combo for the Ur-priest, how would that really work?

[John Longarrow]

Never ran a Savage Bard or sublime cord, so I can't comment.

Straight bard could be really good, especially if he's the kind of guy who's doing the whole "I help you" routine. It does add to the master manipulator.

There are a lot of ways to build out a guy like this. Biggest set of decisions you need to make are what effects you want him to have in game, then work back from there.

As an example, my BBEG is all about diplomacy / fear / military knowledge. He's going to have max diplomacy, max intimidate, max knowledge( history ). He wants to make an empire that avoids most of the mistakes (as he sees it) previous empires had.

NOTE: I'm also going to build him as an intimidator (using move action to intimidate in a 30' area) with a MASSIVE bonus to intimidate and immunity to fear. This should help when he's got to face something nasty and he pulls out a +40 or so intimidate check to shut them down.

[Drackstin]

Never ran a Savage Bard or sublime cord, so I can't comment.

Straight bard could be really good, especially if he's the kind of guy who's doing the whole "I help you" routine. It does add to the master manipulator.

There are a lot of ways to build out a guy like this. Biggest set of decisions you need to make are what effects you want him to have in game, then work back from there.

As an example, my BBEG is all about diplomacy / fear / military knowledge. He's going to have max diplomacy, max intimidate, max knowledge( history ). He wants to make an empire that avoids most of the mistakes (as he sees it) previous empires had.

NOTE: I'm also going to build him as an intimidator (using move action to intimidate in a 30' area) with a MASSIVE bonus to intimidate and immunity to fear. This should help when he's got to face something nasty and he pulls out a +40 or so intimidate check to shut them down.

i think there are a few armor enchantments that just give you an intimidate aura based on your check.

as for my BBEG he did the whole, "im going to kill everyone" with loudspeakers last time and it didn't end well. so he is keeping to the shadows and he is going to make others fight one another until he is all that stands, trying to not let anyone know until its too late. he is going to have max bluff, diplomacy, knowledge religion, planes. the gods created his race then destroyed them. so he is going to know everything he can about the "gods" even though he calls them all false.