Persistent Spell and Fixed Range

[Andezzar]

In the Q&A Thread people claim that the Reach Spell Metamagic does not make a spell a fixed range spell required for Persistent Spell.

I contend that the change Reach spell makes is functionally the same as a Range expressed in feet:
You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet.

Now let's look at the Range characteristic of spells:

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.
[...]
Range Expressed in Feet

Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet.So a spell that has its range expressed in feet can be cast at any viable target within hat distance, not only at targets at exactly that distance. A touch spell with the Reach Spell metamagic applied can be cast at at any viable target within the fixed limit of 30 ft. Why do people say those two are to be treated differently with regards to persistent spell?

[Fax Celestis]

"Range up to 30 feet" is a variable range (5' to 30'), not a fixed one.

Compare to bless, which is a fixed range.

Bless
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 50 ft.
Area: The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Bless fills your allies with courage. Each ally gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and on saving throws against fear effects.

Bless counters and dispels bane.
The range is equal to the area, and it is centered on the caster. There is no variable effect from level (such as from a Close range spell).

If Reach Spell metamagic were to make a spell into a fixed range, then it would only be able to target creatures that were exactly 30' away.

[Andezzar]

Bless is only an example. Not all spells with a range expressed in feet work that way. I can give you another that supports my opinion: Prestidigitation.

You do not have to step 10 ft away from the object you wish to clean.

As far as I can tell there is no definition for Fixed Range. Most certainly there is not requirement that the spell must be an area spell or that the area of effect must be equal to the area within range.

Mass Lesser Vigor also has a fixed range (i.e. expressed in a fixed value of feet) and their targets need not be at a fixed distance from the caster. For what it's worth the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip) agrees with me that the spell can be persisted.

[Fax Celestis]

Bless is only an example. Not all spells with a range expressed in feet work that way. I can give you another that supports my opinion: Prestidigitation.

You do not have to step 10 ft away from the object you wish to clean.It is still a fixed-value range: 10'.


Mass Lesser Vigor also has a fixed range (i.e. expressed in a fixed value of feet) and their targets need not be at a fixed distance from the caster. For what it's worth the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip) agrees with me that the spell can be persisted.
Sure. But the range is still listed as a fixed-value.

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Cleric 3, Druid 3,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 ft.
Target: One creature/two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 25 rounds)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Range: 20 ft.

Not 30' + 5'/2 levels.

[Andezzar]

It is still a fixed-value range: 10'.I agree. Range however is not the distance at which a spell must be cast but the distance beyond which the spell cannot be cast. Or put otherwise you can cast is at any distance equal to or smaller than the range. In case of prestidigitation in the caster's square, all eight surrounding squares and all squares that are 10 ft away surrounding the former (12 squares, the corner squares are 15 ft away from the caster)



Sure. But the range is still listed as a fixed-value.


Not 30' + 5'/2 levels.Yes and that is exactly what Reach spell does. It gives you the ability to cast the spell anywhere within the fixed range of 30 ft., not 30 ft + 5 ft/2 levels.

[Chronos]

A range of 30' is the exact same thing as a range of up to 30'. Persist Spell works on spells affected by Reach Spell.

What I wonder is why the Persist Spell feat was written that way to begin with. What's so special about fixed-range or personal spells that makes them persistable? It would make sense to have restrictions based on the duration (say, prohibit spells whose duration does not depend on caster level), but what do duration and range have to do with each other?

[Fax Celestis]

A range of 30' is the exact same thing as a range of up to 30'. Persist Spell works on spells affected by Reach Spell.

What I wonder is why the Persist Spell feat was written that way to begin with. What's so special about fixed-range or personal spells that makes them persistable? It would make sense to have restrictions based on the duration (say, prohibit spells whose duration does not depend on caster level), but what do duration and range have to do with each other?

You know, I guess you're right. For some reason I thought that Reach Spell was variable based on CL.

As far as why Persistent Spell was written that way, I'd wager it's to stop things like persistent daze: sixth level spell slot for 24 hours of no actions? Yes please.

[Story]

The worst part is that you can still persist Daze via Occular spell. Of course the hd cap and mind-effecting nature means it isn't too useful in practice.

[Chronos]

And it'd still have the save DC of a 0th-level spell. By the time you've got sixth-level slots available, you can do so much more on a failed save-- Try Baleful Polymorph, or Flesh to Stone.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You know, I guess you're right. For some reason I thought that Reach Spell was variable based on CL.

As far as why Persistent Spell was written that way, I'd wager it's to stop things like persistent daze: sixth level spell slot for 24 hours of no actions? Yes please.And it'd still have the save DC of a 0th-level spell. By the time you've got sixth-level slots available, you can do so much more on a failed save-- Try Baleful Polymorph, or Flesh to Stone.

Your right persistent daze isn't a problem... now persistent Acid Arrow that could be quite painful.

[Ubab]

--> Based on the description of Persistent Spell found in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting can cast some light in this discussion.

There, the description says Detect Magic as an example (a spell that all magic is detected whitin the range) of fixed range and Comprehend Language as example of personal range spell (not interesting to the present thread).

This version uses a slot four higher. D&D 3.0

--> The Complete Arcane version is quite the same, without the examples, but saying about Detect Magic and Detect Thoughts.

This version uses a slot six level higher. D&D 3.5

--> The version found at Deities and Demigods it's the same as in FRCS, but say "the deity" instead of "you". Tome & Blood is quite the same.

This version uses a slot four level higher. Both are D&D 3.0.

--> In Player's Guide to Faerûn, we see the same description foun in FRCS, but this version uses a slot six level higher. And is a D&D 3.5 version of this feat.

All that said, appears to me that only personal and spell that the range are, really, fixed, can be affected by this metamagic. This will include, from SRD, the spells like: Detect Magic (fixed), Read Magic (personal), Arcane Mark (fixed, but naturally permanent), Obscuring Mist (fixed), Detect Secret Doors (fixed), Detect Undead (fixed), Color Spray (fixed, but instantaneous...), Disguise Self (personal), Expeditious Retreat (personal), Invisibility (personally casted), Mirror Image (personal), and so on.

[Andezzar]

Examples are just that examples. Just because Detect Magic works does not mean that spells that have a range expressed in feet, but do not originate from the caster do not work.

3.5 rules supersede 3.0 rules, so anything 3.0 is irrelevant. PGtF is only relevant if you play in Faerun otherwise the most recent version is to be used. Complete Arcane and Divine are both newer than PGtF.

It may be the intention that only such spells that must originate from the caster like Bless should be included however using "fixed range" is a very imprecise way of phrasing it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It may be the intention that only such spells that must originate from the caster like Bless should be included however using "fixed range" is a very imprecise way of phrasing it.
Actually no "fixed range" is a very precise way of phrasing it

[Pickford]

The worst part is that you can still persist Daze via Occular spell. Of course the hd cap and mind-effecting nature means it isn't too useful in practice.

No, you can't. Occular spell gives the spells used a fixed range 'after' it is put into your eyes.

You need to apply the other metamagic effects when they are memorized/cast. This precludes the use of something that requires a fixed range.

[killem2]

No, you can't. Occular spell gives the spells used a fixed range 'after' it is put into your eyes.

You need to apply the other metamagic effects when they are memorized/cast. This precludes the use of something that requires a fixed range.

Can this be used in conjunction with Incanatrix?

[Pickford]

Can this be used in conjunction with Incanatrix?

'This' being what? The problem is the order of operations.


Instant Metamagic (Su): Once per day, the 7th-level incantatrix can use a single metamagic effect of any metamagic feat she knows on a spell without preparing it beforehand (if a wizard) or increasing its casting time (if a sorcerer or bard). The wizard's prepared spell works as if prepared with the metamagic feat except it uses the same spell slot. A sorcerer or bard's spell is cast without the adjustment to the casting time but works as if cast with the metamagic feat. A 9th-level incantatrix can use this power twice per day.

Nothing there changes the order of operations necessary and the spell won't have the range from ocular spell until it is actually cast, by which time it's too late to apply the instant metamagic.

[Chronos]

Nothing there changes the order of operations necessary and the spell won't have the range from ocular spell until it is actually cast, by which time it's too late to apply the instant metamagic.
Incantatrixes can add metamagic to a spell after it's been cast.

[Fax Celestis]

Incantatrixes can add metamagic to a spell after it's been cast.

Incantatrices, Sir Chronos.