[PF] [SOLVED] Advice on encounter design against a gunslinger

[namor]

Hi,

one of my players plays a gunslinger. He does good RP with his character
and he fits in the tone of the party and setting, but I have a hard time challenging the party with encounters. This - I think - is mostly because I allowed him to play a fey-creature goblin gunslinger. This odd combination gives him a +10 (*) modifier on dexterity from which the gunslinger profits a lot, also, it solves some weaknesses of his character (like giving him spell resistance and bonuses on will saves)

Having characters which do more damage OR are tougher than others is not an issue to me. What worries me is that he always hits AND never gets hit. Gunslingers attack on touch ac. Skimming through my bestiaries and older 3.5 stuff, I find almost no monsters with challenging touch ac. He usually only "misses" on a 1 because that's when his gun explodes. Together with the high damage from all the gunslinger class features and dexterity, he takes at least 40 hp every round with 95% hit change (= always). This downs most monsters on our CR in max 2 rounds (with some help from the rest of the party).

On the other hand, his high AC and touch AC due to dexterity makes him very hard to hit from opponents of appropriate CR, the spell resistance is 11+his CR, which gives enemy casters a ~50% chance of failure if they are of similar CR.

So if challenging enemies ECL+1 to +2 do not focus the gunslinger, they do some damage to the party before they get shot.
If they focus the gunslinger instead (it makes sense plot-wise because the party has an enemy who observed them very well recently and can give orders to his minions), the gunslinger *may* get hit once before the enemies get shot or cut, since he got good defenses; i.e. no noteworthy damage is inflicted to the party at all, there's nothing to heal for the cleric and no feeling of challenge emerged.

I would like to have an encounter once in a while - if it makes sense story wise - which challenges the gunslinger as well - not just the rest. It seems odd that the one who does most damage is never in danger even if focused. If I just increase the CR of the encounter, the other players start having problems too, so I'm asking you for advice designing encounters which are challenging to my whole party. This mostly boils down to picking monsters which counter the gunslinger class.

We are playing ECL 9 currently. (gunslinger is 8 due to the +1 CR from fey creature). The gunslinger has, due to high dex, an extremely good reflex save with evasion and medium will and fortitude saves due to some items. His AC is near 30 and the touch AC is almost the same due to the high dexterity. He is considered "fey" - not humanoid - so lots of spells won't work. The SR is 21.

Any ideas for encounter designs, be it monsters, spells, tactics etc?

(*) +4 racial from goblin, +4 racial from fey creature, +2 size from shape-shifting into a 'normal' goblin, which he always does. Of course, he has got an enhancement bonus too from items.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I have several suggestions: Dex damage (as long as he acknowledges his PC is a bit overpowered), Deflect Arrow/Missile Shield (the latter combined with an Arrow Catching shield to help allies), Protection from Arrows/Bullets, which canbe combined, and Mirror Image. Sure, he can hit high, but it doesn't matter if its still a 1 in 6 chance. Also, there are spells that increase the misfire rate of a gun. Beyond that, Sundering is a move I would pull in emergencies.

[Fax Celestis]

You could also go with counter-snipers or difficult-to-target creatures (like anything with Spring Attack and a burrow speed.

[Korahir]

Concealment of any form is always a good way to avoid damage. Laying hurt on him will most likely be spells that allow no SR. Cloudkill springs to mind. Wall of Stone is another one i love.

Also i feel like a very specialized caster shouldn't have any troubles dealing with his saves. simply target his lowest save. His SR is 19 at the moment. A challenging Elf Wizard (lvl 11) would have +13 with invested feats +15 or even +17 for his caster level check.

[gartius]

i would like to point out it is only touch ac whilst in the first range increment, which is a high likelyhood of putting him in danger.

another thing is it sounds as if you are using one target logic, which makes things a lot easier for the party as it becomes gang up tactics. Try adding multiple opponents, it could make the fight easier if you are using multiple below CR opponents, but it can also make the combat more fun due to making it more enjoyable.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well a swarm might only take half damage from weapons which would certainly make it last longer. As gartius suggests use multiple targets, four creatures two CR's below the party is often much tougher encounter then one target two CR's above the party.

One difficult encounter I was in involved had near a dozen Water Naga's (CR7) against our party of four 12th level characters. The encounter was made more difficult on several levels
They were in the water along with even more sailors as our ship came up to the port, this prevented us from simply blasting them into oblivion. Being in the water gave them a cover bonus to AC against attacks from above water which when combined with shield, blur and mirror image meant they were rather defensible for CR 7 creatures.

Now we didn't know about this encounter ahead of time so there was no preparing the exact right spells to use against them.


Or you could sit down with your play and explain you made a horrible mistake allowing him to be that race and ask him to rebuild his gunslinger using a normal goblin or some other regular race.

[Baroncognito]

I'd bet his strength score sucks, which will hurt his CMB and (to a lesser extent) his CMD. Creatures attempting Combat Maneuvers don't need to worry about his armour class, and his small size should make it easier to grapple him.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'd bet his strength score sucks, which will hurt his CMB and (to a lesser extent) his CMD. Creatures attempting Combat Maneuvers don't need to worry about his armour class, and his small size should make it easier to grapple him.

His size isn't going to mean very much in PF instead of difference of four per size category its one. And his high dexterity will certainly help his CMD as would his nimble class feature(dodge bonus) and any deflection bonus to his AC. Though once he's grappled getting out himself may be a problem.

[Novawurmson]

I'd highly recommend looking over this document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit), as it writes down a lot of things I had to learn the hard way about DMing. CR+1 and CR+2 encounters are not really challenging - CR+3 and CR+4 encounters are.

[Baroncognito]

His size isn't going to mean very much in PF instead of difference of four per size category its one. And his high dexterity will certainly help his CMD as would his nimble class feature(dodge bonus) and any deflection bonus to his AC. Though once he's grappled getting out himself may be a problem.

Every penalty helps, his CMD will still be lower than his AC if for no other reason than instead of a +1 AC from size he gets a -1 CMD from size.

Alternatively, if you want to stick with magical threats:

Spells like Flash Fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flash-fire), Damp Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/damp-powder), and Destabilize Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/destablize-powder) all target the gun and not the person will spell resistance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Every penalty helps, his CMD will still be lower than his AC if for no other reason than instead of a +1 AC from size he gets a -1 CMD from size.

Actually no his CMD can very easily be higher then his AC because his CMD includes his base attack bonus and with his high dexterity he's probably not wearing much physical armor.



Alternatively, if you want to stick with magical threats:

Spells like Flash Fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flash-fire), Damp Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/damp-powder), and Destabilize Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/destablize-powder) all target the gun and not the person will spell resistance.
Most of those spells work won't work to well, chances are the gunslinger is using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to reload his gun as a free action so the gun isn't likely to be loaded except on the gunslingers turn.

[namor]

Guys, thanks a lot for your advice!

As a GM, with your tips I feel a lot more confident creating memorable encounters for this party without them getting finished in 2 rounds due to our gunslinger. Let me comment on some of your tips:


You could also go with counter-snipers or difficult-to-target creatures (like anything with Spring Attack and a burrow speed.

Great idea. I was using a Spectre last session which attacks blindly through the floor. But pinpointing your enemies prior to attacking and having a 50% miss change took it's toll. With spring attack you could make that more reliable. Using burrow speed lets me choose more monsters for this tactics. With the Spectre, my PCs readied attack actions to shoot or hit the arms of the Spectre. Spring attack has the drawback too, but hey, they SHOULD defeat the monsters after all. Just not too easily. :-)



I have several suggestions: Dex damage (as long as he acknowledges his PC is a bit overpowered), Deflect Arrow/Missile Shield (the latter combined with an Arrow Catching shield to help allies), Protection from Arrows/Bullets, which canbe combined, and Mirror Image. Sure, he can hit high, but it doesn't matter if its still a 1 in 6 chance. Also, there are spells that increase the misfire rate of a gun. Beyond that, Sundering is a move I would pull in emergencies.


I'd go for strength damage rather, since his strength is below 10. Ability damage is a good idea - but it's tedious to recalculate secondary stats. Missile Shield is awesome. I read about Deflect Arrow already, but it seems too strange to me to give anyone but a monk this feat. The requirements are low, but it'd odd if anyone more or less agile can deflect bullets with his hands... Missile Shield make sense to me, however. :-)

Another suggestion many of you made was to use more opponents. This is also the quintessence of what's written in the document Novawurmson linked to: Action Economy. Simply put: Do not let the PCs have 5 actions when the opponents have just one.



Alternatively, if you want to stick with magical threats:

Spells like Flash Fire, Damp Powder, and Destabilize Powder all target the gun and not the person will spell resistance.

Wow, these spells outright counter a gunslinger. As long as he has his gun equipped, he can make the save instead. But spell resistance should not propagate to equipped items. There's a level 1 spell wizard which requires the gunslinger to spend a full round action to reload his weapon. The one with blindness (which would cleverly bypass the SR) also looks interesting.

I will be careful to use the tactics given sparingly. This is not about bashing my gunslinger all day long, but to have some aces to make encounters interesting again. In the past, when we had these typical 4 man, it was challenging enough to just pick some random monster of appropriate CR from the monster manual and throw it to the wolves (PCs). The more the party differs from the default, the more you have to adapt encounters I guess.

[namor]

Most of those spells work won't work to well, chances are the gunslinger is using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to reload his gun as a free action so the gun isn't likely to be loaded except on the gunslingers turn.

Since the place is highly magical and the boss is a caster with cultist wizards as minions (beside the monsters in his dungeon), it should be easy to have someone ready an action "cast Damp Powder if he tries to shoot".

Knowing that they will come for his head and having been shot by the gunslinger in the past, the boss might even resolve to building these spells in traps. It's up the the rogue then to disable them. :-)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

(Non-monk with Deflect/Catch Arrows) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)

[Hyde]

You could also consider a non-monster encounter, such as an elaborate trap. The gunslinger is good at combat, but not so great at anything else. Stick him in a room with two levers that have to be pulled in a certain order, and then slowly fill the room with lava.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Since the place is highly magical and the boss is a caster with cultist wizards as minions (beside the monsters in his dungeon), it should be easy to have someone ready an action "cast Damp Powder if he tries to shoot".

Knowing that they will come for his head and having been shot by the gunslinger in the past, the boss might even resolve to building these spells in traps. It's up the the rogue then to disable them. :-)

The trick will work the first time you use it(presuming he doesn't make the save), but afterwards you might not have as much luck. With his high dexterity I'm guessing he tends to win initiative. Readying an action to cast damp powder doesn't do much good if the gunslinger won initiative and killed the minion before they had the chance to ready an action.

So be sure to save that trick for the next confrontation with the BBEG. Otherwise the party may be ready to counter your counter when you need it the most. For traps you have to be sure the enemy attacks immediately after it triggered, two or three rounds is more then enough time to clean out the gun or recover from the blindness which means the trap is wasted.

Unrelated note, dispel magic makes a great trap, it can remove long lasting buffs the party expected to last the rest of the dungeon. Damage can be undone if the party carries wands of curing and restoration before the next encounter.

[Fax Celestis]

Most of those spells work won't work to well, chances are the gunslinger is using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to reload his gun as a free action so the gun isn't likely to be loaded except on the gunslingers turn.

This is what the ready action is for.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This is what the ready action is for.

I already pointed out how that can and likely will fail. Readying an action is meaningless if the target wins initiative and kills you before you can ready an action.

[Fax Celestis]

I already pointed out how that can and likely will fail. Readying an action is meaningless if the target wins initiative and kills you before you can ready an action.

And if there is only one opponent capable of doing so, that is poor strategy on the defender's part.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Two words: Surprise Round. Although technically, you can't ready out of combat.

[Lord Vukodlak]

And if there is only one opponent capable of doing so, that is poor strategy on the defender's part.

If it takes multiple minions to shut down one PC the gunslinger has already won simply by tying up that many resources. Two or three wizards readied to counter the gunslinger with those spells are two or three wizards incapable of harming the rest of the party.

[Fax Celestis]

If it takes multiple minions to shut down one PC the gunslinger has already won simply by tying up that many resources. Two or three wizards readied to counter the gunslinger with those spells are two or three wizards incapable of harming the rest of the party.

You only need two.


Defender A and B both have the ability to interfere with Gunslinger A.
Defenders C through G are largely irrelevant but run interference protecting Defenders A and B.
Gunslinger A wins initiative and through some divining or intelligent gameplay knows Defenders A and B can mess him up. So he shoots the hell out of Defender A and kills him.
Defender B goes "Oh My Lanta, a gun," and readies ruin gunslinger's day.
Combat proceeds as normal.
Gunslinger A goes to shoot the hell out of Defender B.
Defender B's readied action triggers, and he casts ruin gunslinger's day.
Gunslinger A fails his save and his day is ruined.
Combat proceeds as normal, and Defender B starts doing his controllery things on other players.

[Baroncognito]

There's also Bullet Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bullet-shield) which has the advantage of only making the encounter more difficult for the gunslinger.

And Recoil Fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/recoil-fire) can make the Gunslinger Flatfooted. (It's a will save instead of a reflex save at least).

And if you want to blind him and deafen him, there's also Thunder Fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/thunder-fire) to pair with Flash Fire.

[namor]

You only need two.


...
Defender B's readied action triggers, and he casts ruin gunslinger's day.
Gunslinger A fails his save and his day is ruined.
Combat proceeds as normal, and Defender B starts doing his controllery things on other players.


Haha. :smallwink:

[Lord Vukodlak]

You only need two.

[LIST=1]
Defender A and B both have the ability to interfere with Gunslinger A.
Defenders C through G are largely irrelevant but run interference protecting Defenders A and B.
Gunslinger A wins initiative and through some divining or intelligent gameplay knows Defenders A and B can mess him up. So he shoots the hell out of Defender A and kills him.
Defender B goes "Oh My Lanta, a gun," and readies ruin gunslinger's day.
Defender B doesn't get to act until next round(because the gunslinger already acted this round), he might not survive that long. If the party has seen this trick before they'll likely recognize it and could target Defender B on their turns. Or put some obstacle like a smokestick between the two so Defender B can't see the gunslinger anylonger.

And damp powder is only a speed bumb it far from removes him from combat, if he knows Defender B is pulling the same trick he could use his high dexterity to slight of hand and fake reload the gun. Damp powder is wasted(as the gun was never actually loaded( and the rest of his attacks that round go directly to Defender B.

So as I said the readying trick might only work once so the DM should get his millage out it the first time and not expect it to work again in the near after.

Flash Power is the best shot as it doesn't even require the gun be loaded,(thus they could cast it without readying actions). But it does carry the disadvantage of granting two saves, will to stop the flash from happening and fortitude to resist the blindness.

[Baroncognito]

Recoil Fire could work. It'd kill both his AC and his CMD.

And, a note, if his gun is a revolver, then all the spells work fine (and the chances are he walks around with it loaded).

[Baroncognito]

Most of those spells work won't work to well, chances are the gunslinger is using rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to reload his gun as a free action so the gun isn't likely to be loaded except on the gunslingers turn.

If he was using Alchemical cartridges, his gun would explode on 1 and 2.

[Fax Celestis]

Defender B doesn't get to act until next round(because the gunslinger already acted this round), he might not survive that long. If the party has seen this trick before they'll likely recognize it and could target Defender B on their turns. Or put some obstacle like a smokestick between the two so Defender B can't see the gunslinger anylonger.Yes he does. You ready an action on your turn, and it pushes your initiative back to your new value.


Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.


Gunslinger goes on Init 22
Defender A on Init 15
Defender B on Init 8
Gunslinger kills A
Defender B readies
Gunslinger's turn comes back up on 22
Defender B's new init score is 22, acts before/during Gunslinger's turn (based upon terms of ready), messes up his day
Gunslinger takes rest of turn, day ruined


If Defender B says "I cast ruin gunslinger's day before he fires his gun", the way ready works is that Gunslinger attempts to fire, Defender B messes up that firing, and Gunslinger loses the rest of his attack action because he is now trying to fire a presumably ruined gun.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes he does. You ready an action on your turn, and it pushes your initiative back to your new value.




Gunslinger goes on Init 22
Defender A on Init 15
Defender B on Init 8
Gunslinger kills A
Defender B readies



To counter something the gunslinger will do in round 2. The rest of the party gets to act before the gunslinger takes his second turn, giving them time to eliminate or put an obstacle between B and the Gunslinger(like a smokestick) to he can't target the gunslinger's weapon.

And as I said if the gunsligner has seen this trick before he could simply fake reloading the gun with slight of hand and aim the weapon. The caster won't know the gun isn't actually loaded and he'll waste the spell.

[Fax Celestis]

And how, pray tell, do the players know what Defender B is doing, aside from standing in the back looking mysterious and spooky?

[Lord Vukodlak]

And how, pray tell, do the players know what Defender B is doing, aside from standing in the back looking mysterious and spooky?

This presumes its the second time DM has pulled this. The first time it would work wonderfully. These tricks always work the first time, but afterwards parties learn to expect them. The second time the Gunsligner is going to be looking for the second disablier. And the caster who didn't act that entire round but instead just kept his focus right on him is a dead give away. You can see what someone is readied to do but you can probably see who they're readied against as that is where they're focus would be.

[Fax Celestis]

This presumes its the second time DM has pulled this. The first time it would work wonderfully. These tricks always work the first time, but afterwards parties learn to expect them. The second time the Gunsligner is going to be looking for the second disablier. And the caster who didn't act that entire round but instead just kept his focus right on him is a dead give away. You can see what someone is readied to do but you can probably see who they're readied against as that is where they're focus would be.

And if your gunslinger is wasting his time making sure he can still do his thing by picking off suboptimal targets for two rounds, don't you rack that up as a success as a DM?

[Lord Vukodlak]

And if your gunslinger is wasting his time making sure he can still do his thing by picking off suboptimal targets for two rounds, don't you rack that up as a success as a DM?

Spellcasters are never suboptimal targets, if the wizards weren't trying to target the gunslinger they could be using stinking cloud or gitterdust. Which would probably be more effective then damp powder, flash fire or destabilize as they not only ignore spell resistance but effect the whole party.

[Baroncognito]

Spellcasters are never suboptimal targets, if the wizards weren't trying to target the gunslinger they could be using stinking cloud or gitterdust. Which would probably be more effective then damp powder, flash fire or destabilize as they not only ignore spell resistance but effect the whole party.

But the GM has expressed an interest in not making the encounters too hard for the entire party.

[Lord Vukodlak]

But the GM has expressed an interest in not making the encounters too hard for the entire party.

He also doesn't want to bash the gunslinger all day long either. Using those spells doesn't single him out.

[Raven777]

Send a swarm at him. Gunslingers are a one trick pony entirely based around single target physical damage. A swarm of tiny creatures is going to be something he'll have no way to deal with. Make sure the swarm goes for him and gets as distracting as possible while the rest of the party has other critters to deal with.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Send a swarm at him. Gunslingers are a one trick pony entirely based around single target physical damage. A swarm of tiny creatures is going to be something he'll have no way to deal with. Make sure the swarm goes for him and gets as distracting as possible while the rest of the party has other critters to deal with.

Well, swarms screw over all martial characters but dragons breath cartridges can damage swarms