[3.5] Optimize this natural lycanthrope Barbarian, please

[ericp65]

A starting character from the Forgotten Realms needs improvement...

Mara Stonar "The White Wolf" is an albino female Illuskan human (shapechanger) Uthgardt Tribeswoman (Gray Wolf tribe) who is a natural lycanthrope (werewolf). Neutral. Patron: Uthgar. Age: 16 years. 5'7", 135 lbs; white hair, blue eyes, fair/pale skin.

Barbarian 1, character level 6
AC 17
HP 38

Ability scores: 15 14 16 15 17 18
Saves: F +8, R +5, W +5
BAB +2
Init +6

Armor: Masterwork studded leather

Weapons: Longsword, composite longbow (20 mwk arrows)

Feats: Self-Sufficient, Improved Initiative

Mara's animal/hybrid form:
AC 18
HP 38

Ability scores: 17 18 20 15 17 18

Base Att/Gr: +2/+5
Att: bite +6 melee
Full Att: bite +6 (+4 hybrid) (1d6+1), 2 claws (hybrid) +5/+5 (1d4+3 each)
Saves: F +10 R +7 W +5

How might this character be optimized (including gear options) for use as a beginning (0 XP) character while retaining her theme/concept? All published 3.5 materials are welcome, including on-line sources but excluding PF. She should remain primarily human, but there could be something unusual in her ancestry.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, from a game perspective, 3 LA is a whole lot worse than 2 LA. At ECL 6, you will be...

... From the SRD, the table for a human werewolf has a single RHD, so that gets replaced with a class level as you start your character. It appears to be a goof though, as it should have 2, one from human and one from the template.

barbarian 1. This means +2 bab, and some good stuff. I recommend being a whiling frenzy barbarian and taking the pounce ACF in place of fast movement. At ECL 9 you can take your first level of warshaper for some really awesome abilities.

If you had the afflicted LA, you could be LA 7 or 8.

Multiattack is a good feat, as is improved unarmed strike. Wolf totem barbarian sounds like a good thing to take as well. I think it stacks with the pounce ACF. You could get some interesting chains of tripping going with a attack that causes a trip and a trip that allows an extra attack.

Self suficient is a horrid feat. Get a pair of masterwork tools for 100gp and leave that feat in the dust. Never spend a feat or level getting what can be bought for GP. Gp flows like a river, build choices are forever.

[Firebug]

The 38 hp point is throwing me. Do you have a page number for this character in the book? And which specific book?

If you are a level 1 barbarian you would get 12 hp from first level, and another 9 from the 2 racial HD from were-wolf (2d8 averages 9). With a Constitution of 14 you should only have 27 hp. When you shift into wolf form or hybrid form your con goes up by +4 so that gives you another 6 hp in those forms... meaning 33 hp.

If you wanted to play it from level 1, I'd suggest making up a table similar to how monster classes work from Savage Species (or Libris Mortis) and spread out the benefits from being a lycanthrope with the racial HD. Something like level 1 you are a barbarian, and during levels 2-6 you are awakening your inner wolf.

Say level 2 gives you alternate form (wolf only, normal stats), scent, and low-light vision, and Lycanthropic Empathy.
Level 3 gives you 1 of the wolf HDs and damage reduction 5/silver.
Level 4 gives you the natural armor and gives you the increased stats in alternate form (still wolf only), and the bonus feat Iron Will.
Level 5 gives you hybrid form, as well as damage reduction 10/silver.
Level 6 gives you the final HD from wolf and +2 wisdom and the Curse of Lycanthropy (you are now a full werewolf so you can spread it).
Use the links provided by the post directly below this one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, level adjustment is terrible and you should get rid of it asap via buying it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Normally for a +3 LA you need to hit your 9th character level (not counting any racial HD), which in this case would be a minimum ECL 14 to buy off the first point of that level adjustment. However, you could gradually gain Werewolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and buy it off as you gain it.

Start with the first 'level' of SP-16: The Werewolf Template Class, which is effectively the first point of the template's level adjustment as it does not grant any HD. This way you can go LA 1/ (class levels) 3, buy off that one LA, spend your next level gained on the second LA of the Werewolf template, after three more class levels (6 total) buy that one off, take the third and final LA of the template with your next level, at your 9th class level you can buy that one off, then you can gain both levels/HD of SP-17: The Wolf (Lycanthrope) Class. You'll have the whole thing by level 11, down 18,000 xp but without any level adjustment at all. You'll be lower level than the rest of the party from 4th level on, so you'll be getting more xp per encounter and should catch most of the way back up as you go.

[Firebug]

That was exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post (without the buyoffs anyway). I just couldn't find the chart, so I made one up quick. So to the OP, ignore my previous post, and use the official chart.

[HalfQuart]

... From the SRD, the table for a human werewolf has a single RHD, so that gets replaced with a class level as you start your character. It appears to be a goof though, as it should have 2, one from human and one from the template.
I'm confused by your post. Werewolf in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#werewolf) has 1 class (warrior) HD on 2 racial HD, with +3 LA (for natural lycanthropy)... so ericp65 has it right: instead of the warrior level he has 1 level in Barbarian, 2 RHD, +3 LA = ECL 6.

To the OP, don't forget you get Iron Will and Track as bonus feats.

Definitely replace Self-Sufficient... you should probably figure out where you're going feat-wise. Popular choices include charger builds (with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.), grapplers, intimidation/fear focused, or trippers. Generally these require several feats to optimize, so you'll want to plan out your feats from the get-go.

[ericp65]

The 38 hp point is throwing me. Do you have a page number for this character in the book? And which specific book?

If you are a level 1 barbarian you would get 12 hp from first level, and another 9 from the 2 racial HD from were-wolf (2d8 averages 9). With a Constitution of 14 you should only have 27 hp. When you shift into wolf form or hybrid form your con goes up by +4 so that gives you another 6 hp in those forms... meaning 33 hp.

Use the links provided by the post directly below this one.

I wrote the character using core books only, and I guess I botched the math on hp. It's been a long time since I've reviewed this character, so I don't recall the exact walkthrough. Her CON is 16, but my calculation yields 37 hp now, so I should probably redo all her hp. I never use averages, instead rolling the dice (but always give max hp at first level, including CON bonus, except where the rules dictate otherwise...as in the case of characters with a LA?).

[ericp65]

First of all, level adjustment is terrible and you should get rid of it asap via buying it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Normally for a +3 LA you need to hit your 9th character level (not counting any racial HD), which in this case would be a minimum ECL 14 to buy off the first point of that level adjustment. However, you could gradually gain Werewolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and buy it off as you gain it.

Start with the first 'level' of SP-16: The Werewolf Template Class, which is effectively the first point of the template's level adjustment as it does not grant any HD. This way you can go LA 1/ (class levels) 3, buy off that one LA, spend your next level gained on the second LA of the Werewolf template, after three more class levels (6 total) buy that one off, take the third and final LA of the template with your next level, at your 9th class level you can buy that one off, then you can gain both levels/HD of SP-17: The Wolf (Lycanthrope) Class. You'll have the whole thing by level 11, down 18,000 xp but without any level adjustment at all. You'll be lower level than the rest of the party from 4th level on, so you'll be getting more xp per encounter and should catch most of the way back up as you go.

Good deal; I'm familiar with LA buyoff, so I'll want to do that as early in her future progression as possible.

I was not aware of the Werewolf template class, so that's a very attractive option!


That was exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post (without the buyoffs anyway). I just couldn't find the chart, so I made one up quick. So to the OP, ignore my previous post, and use the official chart.

Makes sense, and yeah, that's the direction I'll take her.


I'm confused by your post. Werewolf in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#werewolf) has 1 class (warrior) HD on 2 racial HD, with +3 LA (for natural lycanthropy)... so ericp65 has it right: instead of the warrior level he has 1 level in Barbarian, 2 RHD, +3 LA = ECL 6.

To the OP, don't forget you get Iron Will and Track as bonus feats.

Definitely replace Self-Sufficient... you should probably figure out where you're going feat-wise. Popular choices include charger builds (with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.), grapplers, intimidation/fear focused, or trippers. Generally these require several feats to optimize, so you'll want to plan out your feats from the get-go.

OK, so Self-Sufficient is out the window, and I'm thinking she should be a tripper *mind wanders off topic for a moment*. I can imagine her tripping an opponent, then jumping on top and going all La Machine :smallsmile:

Also thinking the longsword and bow need to go, in favor of whatever weapons will allow her to best exploit her abilities.

Off to research and rewrite I go. Thanks for all the input! Any and all additional ideas are most welcome.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, if you want to be a tripper, then get a reach triping weapon to complement your bite attack. Your bite auto trips, so you can do a full attack at reach (or reach AOOs with trips) OR do a bite / claw attack at close range that starts a trip if the bite lands.

Also consider getting the amulet that lets you apply enhancements to your natural attacks. Sweeping applied to your bite would help you trip things easier.

[Nocharim]

Barbarian (Pounce Variant) 1/Animal 2/Barb 0-1/Totemist 1-3/Warshaper 3-5/Totemic Rager 10

Complete Warrior for Warshaper, for which you autoqualify upon reaching 4 BAB. Magic of Incarnum for Totemist and Totemic Rager. Fits nicely to the beast within theme lycanthropes have in general.

Alternately, you could be evil and go for Totemist into Thayan Gladiator for beefed up claws. Evil characters also get access to Black Blood Hunter 3 level dip from PGTFaerun, but that requires quite a few feats and to worship Malar.

Oh and a guide for lycanthropes in here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=607).

Encountered this fun stuff while fiddling with a Were-Serval Duskblade/Warshaper/Ur-Priest/BBH build.

Remember that that the first levels will be Class Level 1/Animal HD X.

[ericp65]

Well, if you want to be a tripper, then get a reach triping weapon to complement your bite attack. Your bite auto trips, so you can do a full attack at reach (or reach AOOs with trips) OR do a bite / claw attack at close range that starts a trip if the bite lands.

Also consider getting the amulet that lets you apply enhancements to your natural attacks. Sweeping applied to your bite would help you trip things easier.

I'll keep those things in mind when outfitting the character, once I've gotten a solid rebuild for her.


Barbarian (Pounce Variant) 1/Animal 2/Barb 0-1/Totemist 1-3/Warshaper 3-5/Totemic Rager 10

Complete Warrior for Warshaper, for which you autoqualify upon reaching 4 BAB. Magic of Incarnum for Totemist and Totemic Rager. Fits nicely to the beast within theme lycanthropes have in general.

Alternately, you could be evil and go for Totemist into Thayan Gladiator for beefed up claws. Evil characters also get access to Black Blood Hunter 3 level dip from PGTFaerun, but that requires quite a few feats and to worship Malar.

Oh and a guide for lycanthropes in here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=607).

Encountered this fun stuff while fiddling with a Were-Serval Duskblade/Warshaper/Ur-Priest/BBH build.

Remember that that the first levels will be Class Level 1/Animal HD X.

Good stuff here! I'd like to avoid evil, if possible (just a personal thing against playing evil characters, for the most part; mostly, my evil characters have been NPCs). At least in human form, Mara doesn't get into the truly evil side of life.

Going back to square one now, I'll rewrite her as a Barbarian 1, then apply the first Werewolf template class level, and begin her play at that point. I've rolled DEX and CON over again, one time each. Revised ability scores (human form) are:

STR 15
DEX 15
CON 18
INT 15
WIS 15
CHA 18

a handbook I'm consulting states that STR, DEX, and CON are the most important abilities for a Barbarian, so should I rearrange these scores, or will they be fine as-is for a start?

Also, at the risk of appearing dense, I'm having trouble understanding LA/ECL for this character, considering one class level and one template class level, so I'd appreciate it if someone could 'splain me this again. I need to get it clear and firm in my mind.

[Fouredged Sword]

You will be having Str and Con through the roof due to warshaper and werewolf, so I would focus on those. You have DR 10/silver and will eventual y get fast healing. This will ensure that you start every fight at full HP, and prevent a lot of damage. This means that dex is much less of a requirement.

So focus on strength. This goes double if you want to do tripping, as it is a strength check.

So this means I would suggest you move that 18 to strength and the 15 into charisma. With that high Wisdom, I would look into a monks belt for free improved unarmed strike (that you can use along side your claws and bite) as well as wis to AC. This will let you not wear armor,

[HalfQuart]

Barbarian (Pounce Variant) 1/Animal 2/Barb 0-1/Totemist 1-3/Warshaper 3-5/Totemic Rager 10
While using the Spirit Lion Totem barbarian variant to get Pounce is mechanically excellent, the fluff seems like a stretch for this character since she comes from the "gray wolf tribe". Granted it isn't my character, so whatever.

[ericp65]

While using the Spirit Lion Totem barbarian variant to get Pounce is mechanically excellent, the fluff seems like a stretch for this character since she comes from the "gray wolf tribe". Granted it isn't my character, so whatever.

Agreed: all of Mara's fluff centers on the wolf. So, I'm writing her as a Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Everfrost Barbarian, and using Spiritual Totem: Wolf from Complete Champion for a +2 on attacks when flanking, and for a +2 on Survival checks at 7th level to replace the Barbarian's DR class feature.

In her future, she might possibly become interested in becoming some sort of wolf spirit shamanic-type person. For now, I'm focusing on getting her ready to begin her adventuring career.

[ericp65]

You will be having Str and Con through the roof due to warshaper and werewolf, so I would focus on those. You have DR 10/silver and will eventual y get fast healing. This will ensure that you start every fight at full HP, and prevent a lot of damage. This means that dex is much less of a requirement.

So focus on strength. This goes double if you want to do tripping, as it is a strength check.

So this means I would suggest you move that 18 to strength and the 15 into charisma. With that high Wisdom, I would look into a monks belt for free improved unarmed strike (that you can use along side your claws and bite) as well as wis to AC. This will let you not wear armor,

Fantastic! Scores rearranged now: STR 18 DEX 15 CON 18 INT 15 WIS 15 CHA 15

[ericp65]

For feats, I'm allowed a FR regional feat, so I selected Surefooted. Allowed a ceremonial feat (Arcana Unearthed), so Intuitive Sense lets her keep AC bonus when flat-footed. Also allowed two Physical/Mental Traits (Iron Heroes), so Weapon Bond (guisarme) allows Mara to be proficient in the guisarme without having to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it, and Brave makes her immune to fear.

Mara's flaws are Short-Tempered and Hedonistic. Still deciding on corresponding bonus feats, as well as her bonus feat for being Human, and for being a first level character. So, that's four more feats to select.

[Nocharim]

While using the Spirit Lion Totem barbarian variant to get Pounce is mechanically excellent, the fluff seems like a stretch for this character since she comes from the "gray wolf tribe". Granted it isn't my character, so whatever.

Pounce can also be gained from binding Sphinx's Claws to arms chakra. It is for natural attacks though.


Your bite auto trips, so you can do a full attack at reach (or reach AOOs with trips) OR do a bite / claw attack at close range that starts a trip if the bite lands.

Except that you don't get special attacks of the base animal in hybrid forms without 3 levels of Black Blood Hunter. Nor do you actually get bonus HP in animal/hybrid form from the extra Con from the animal, you do get the bonus to fort saves from the modifier though.


Also, at the risk of appearing dense, I'm having trouble understanding LA/ECL for this character, considering one class level and one template class level, so I'd appreciate it if someone could 'splain me this again. I need to get it clear and firm in my mind.

1 HD for Barbarian LA +0, ECL 2. The template only gives the abilities listed for its level, no HD or its derivatives (skill points, hp, feats). If your GM is merciful he could grant these levels animal HD, but should force you to take the otherwise optional Wolf Class as well.
If not, I'd avoid the template classes and just eat up the level adjustment and buy them back as appropriate, but that just me.

[ericp65]

Pounce can also be gained from binding Sphinx's Claws to arms chakra. It is for natural attacks though.



Except that you don't get special attacks of the base animal in hybrid forms without 3 levels of Black Blood Hunter. Nor do you actually get bonus HP in animal/hybrid form from the extra Con from the animal, you do get the bonus to fort saves from the modifier though.



1 HD for Barbarian LA +0, ECL 2. The template only gives the abilities listed for its level, no HD or its derivatives (skill points, hp, feats). If your GM is merciful he could grant these levels animal HD, but should force you to take the otherwise optional Wolf Class as well.
If not, I'd avoid the template classes and just eat up the level adjustment and buy them back as appropriate, but that just me.

Wolf class is in; she'll be taking three werewolf template levels and the two wolf class levels, then proceed with character class levels.

ECL 2 is easy enough to understand, as that's the same as for Drow, and I have several Drow characters.

[ericp65]

How's this for feats?

Cold Endurance, Weapon Focus (guisarme), Intimidating Rage, Extra Rage.

Maybe I should swap one out for multiattack, to give Mara an edge in her alternate form(s)? Anything else I'm overlooking?

I've got her skills sorted, so after nailing down her feats, I'll apply the Werewolf Template class (1st level) to complete her.

[HalfQuart]

Cold Endurance is pretty weak, unless you're adventuring predominately in a really cold environment (and don't have access to Endure Elements in some form), are using it as a prerequisite for something I'm not thinking of, or you really want it for the fluff...

You could swap it and Weapon Focus for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip... But in my experience it's pretty hard being a really effective tripper. You generally have to find some way to increase your size and strength...

Or if you want to focus on fighting in Wolf form you could take Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack (as soon as you have +4 BAB, usually at 6HD).

It's already been mentioned several times, but Warshaper is really good, once you qualify. You could also try talking to your DM about refluffing Black Blood Hunter to take out the evil/vile bits.

[ericp65]

Warshaper does look like a great near-term goal (just read about it). I hadn't begun to consider a career path, so to speak. Already thinking a dip in Druid would be good at some point. Pretty wide open.

Added thought: now that I've gone over Werewolf Template and wolf (Lycanthrope) classes, it looks like the best choice for this character would be to take first level in Wolf, then alternate the rest of both classes. Any thoughts on that?

[ericp65]

I think I've got it now...

Feats swapped out: Cold Endurance and Weapon Focus are out, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip are in.

With the Werewolf Template class level, if I'm doing this right, Mara is now a 2nd level character (Barbarian 1 / Werewolf Template 1). WIS increases to 17. BAB 1. Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2.

Carries a guisarme. Not sure yet what other weapons, if any, she should have. A ranged weapon makes sense. Climber's kit and cold weather outfit, plus the usual mundane starting gear. She'll also need some armor, at least until she acquires some good alternate protection.

Character should be ready after her remaining gear is sorted.