Optimization Help: Gestalt Build: Battle Dancer Plus Healer

[Shining Wrath]

I suppose I must explain what's going on here because I imagine many of you saw that choice of classes for gestalt and thought something along the lines of "No. Just ... no".

Last session our party narrowly avoided TPK. So the conversation after the battle was something along the lines of "That was a close one", of course, and the idea was floated that we needed to have backup characters ready in case of a TPK. And then someone said that what we ought to do is make gestalt characters - but out of the really bad classes.

So, here we are. The constraints are to take two Tier V or Tier VI classes and meld them into a gestalt character.

No multiclassing beyond the original 2 classes.
No prestige classes.

I chose Battle Dancer because I think the fluff is fun - by definition, the crunch must suck, else the class would not be Tier V. Having chosen BD, the Healer seems like a good combo - fast progression in all 3 saves, keep the party alive out of combat while using the Battle Dancer abilities in combat.

Your mileage may differ regarding my choices of bad classes, but remember, the whole idea is to make the most of bad classes, so I don't want to hear how the Fighter or the Monk are better Tier V classes than the ones I've chosen. One of the other guys has chosen CW Samurai as one of his classes, folks. It's a challenge!

Having made these choices, plus choosing Elf as a race because fluff, how do I make the most of them? ECL of 12.

My first idea is that I have a MAD problem and I need to de-MAD. BD needs Charisma and Dexterity for class features, plus Strength to wield a weapon. HL needs Wisdom and Charisma for class features. Both need Constitution.

So ... Weapon Finesse as feat #1. Now I can dump STR and INT.

Order of importance: WIS, CHR, DEX, CON, INT, STR?

Fighting Style for the Battle Dancer: TWF, Sword & Board, THF? Given the desire to dump STR, the THF option seems to be ruled out, and both the BD and the HL are forbidden the use of a shield, so TWF.

Therefore: Feat #2 is Two-Weapon Fighting. Then just improve my unarmed strikes.

Does anyone have any better ways to make a Battle Dancer lethal? At least I'll get full BAB.

The Healer's Animal Companion There's not too much to optimize about the Healer - you get these spells, you get these spell-like abilities, keep your friends alive with them. Except that unicorn thingy.

Would it be worth it to put skill points into ride?

Stuff to buy Keen kukri. Items to boost WIS, CHR, DEX. Acrobatic boots for the +2 to Tumble. Bracers of protection since armor is forbidden.
Any other suggestions?

Skill points Tumble must be maximized for Battle Dancer, which means at least 5 points into Jump as well. Oddly for a caster, Healer doesn't really need Concentration, as all their healing spells don't provoke AoO after level 7, which frees some things up.

Ride?
Use Magic Device? High charisma character, pulling out a wand might be better than toting a light crossbow around.

Anyway, please help me out here. This is an interesting problem in optimization with severe constraints.

[Morithias]

Take Dynamic Priest. It makes your healer dependent only on charisma.

Also don't bother with the kukri feats. Focus on taking sanctified spells from BoED for your disabling and damage dealing needs.

Check out the "Healer's handbook" for some good ideas.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=dav787snmgp99hagtpqbhfaov7&topic=6849.0

[Shining Wrath]

Take Dynamic Priest. It makes your healer dependent only on charisma.

Also don't bother with the kukri feats. Focus on taking sanctified spells from BoED for your disabling and damage dealing needs.

Check out the "Healer's handbook" for some good ideas.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=dav787snmgp99hagtpqbhfaov7&topic=6849.0

Thanks for the help. I don't have access to BOED or brilliantgameologists right now, but the list of spells for the Healer don't supply anything that disables or damages. Is Dynamic Priest considered canonical? Legends of the Twins doesn't appear to be an official WotC product.

[Morithias]

Thanks for the help. I don't have access to BOED or brilliantgameologists right now, but the list of spells for the Healer don't supply anything that disables or damages. Is Dynamic Priest considered canonical? Legends of the Twins doesn't appear to be an official WotC product.

It's a licensed WoTC product. Just not written by them. It's as "canonical" as 3rd edition Ravenloft.

[Vaz]

Yeah, it's written under WotC license. For what it's worth, it's not considered to be 1st party material for the Iron Chef Challenge (only the Campaign setting is for the Dragonlance setting).

Still, the Dragonlance books can have some pretty cool stuff. Reserves of Strength can be quite useful (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) on a healer character; taking damage to empower your healing spells. One of my favourite uses of the Healer class is to pick up an absolute ton of Unicorn Horns for free "Reach spell", and then chaining them. Without Metamagic reducers, these are still 9th level spells, but you're popping out Chained 215+ (Healing Hands ability!) HP heals every turn to the entire party.

Pick up Craft Wondrous Item to make yourself a ton of Pearls of Power, and just stay at that level.

Feats like Arcane Disciple: (Any Good Deity) to pick up Trickery Domain for PAO and Assume Su Ability gets you the ability to take the form of a Choker for the Reach and the Quickness ability to let you drop those Heals and still do well in combat.

However, Beg and borrow for Cha synergy in some, any way possible. Wisdom is the dump stat of a Battle Dancer, so you need;

Strength to deal damage
Dex to avoid damage
Con to resist damage
Int for Skills (theoretically "dump" with no PrC'ing out; but Tumble is helpful, as is Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy if you have a Cha focus)
Wis for Bonus Spells/DC's
Cha for Battle Dancer benefits.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, it's written under WotC license. For what it's worth, it's not considered to be 1st party material for the Iron Chef Challenge (only the Campaign setting is for the Dragonlance setting).

Still, the Dragonlance books can have some pretty cool stuff. Reserves of Strength can be quite useful (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) on a healer character; taking damage to empower your healing spells. One of my favourite uses of the Healer class is to pick up an absolute ton of Unicorn Horns for free "Reach spell", and then chaining them. Without Metamagic reducers, these are still 9th level spells, but you're popping out Chained 215+ (Healing Hands ability!) HP heals every turn to the entire party.

Pick up Craft Wondrous Item to make yourself a ton of Pearls of Power, and just stay at that level.

Feats like Arcane Disciple: (Any Good Deity) to pick up Trickery Domain for PAO and Assume Su Ability gets you the ability to take the form of a Choker for the Reach and the Quickness ability to let you drop those Heals and still do well in combat.

However, Beg and borrow for Cha synergy in some, any way possible. Wisdom is the dump stat of a Battle Dancer, so you need;

Strength to deal damage
Dex to avoid damage
Con to resist damage
Int for Skills (theoretically "dump" with no PrC'ing out; but Tumble is helpful, as is Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy if you have a Cha focus)
Wis for Bonus Spells/DC's
Cha for Battle Dancer benefits.

Thanks for this.

I think I can use the Weapon Finesse feat, as discussed, to reduce reliance on Strength. Unless I take some sort of Weapon Proficiency feat, I'm limited to simple weapons, and unarmed strikes will be much more powerful than any weapon I can equip. EDIT: Therefore, one or two points extra damage from high strength is not critical. /EDIT Necklace of Natural Attacks seems like a Natural, if you'll pardon the expression. I need Dex for Tumble as well as AC.

I'm not sure Arcane Disciple helps a Healer as Healer's don't have the ability to cast arcane spells. They have their own list, which is prayed for, so not arcane.

I am AFB right now and relying on that European web site, so can anyone answer the question: Do Battle Dancers get Evasion / Improved Evasion? The site mentions Improved Evasion at 9th level, but not in the text, and no mention of Evasion at all.

[Chronos]

Doesn't the Battle Dancer have a monk's unarmed combat ability? Why bother with a weapon at all?

And given the constraints you have, your class choices make sense: You need someone to do the healing, after all, and the Healer is nearly as good at that as a cleric is. That's about all they can do, of course, but gestalt takes care of that.

[Shining Wrath]

Doesn't the Battle Dancer have a monk's unarmed combat ability? Why bother with a weapon at all?

And given the constraints you have, your class choices make sense: You need someone to do the healing, after all, and the Healer is nearly as good at that as a cleric is. That's about all they can do, of course, but gestalt takes care of that.

I am thinking perhaps I want to go unarmed combat rather than weapon. Since I'm limited to simple weapons unless I burn a feat for Weapon Proficiency, I wouldn't be able to do more than 1D8 anyway - and I'll have that for Unarmed Strike at 4th level.

[Vaz]

I... I have no idea why I put Arcane Disciple down. I even googled to double check the Healer was Divine.

[Shining Wrath]

I... I have no idea why I put Arcane Disciple down. I even googled to double check the Healer was Divine.

All is forgiven. The idea of a graceful dancer morphing into a choker was SWEET - but not to be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace, and use your unarmed strikes to deal nonlethal damage against living opponents. You can get around the part of Vow of Nonviolence that penalizes your party for finishing off opponents by having a party member who has the authority to give captured opponents a 'fair trial' and execution on the spot, similar to Judge Dredd. Executing a criminal who's found guilty and sentenced to death is not the same as killing a helpless or defenseless foe.

[Magma Armor0]

I'm actually playing a healer right now in a campaign, and I just wanted to throw in a word of caution re: dynamic priest. Given the terrible restrictions on armor and shields, the best way I found to defend my healer was a Monk's Belt; the WIS-->AC is phenomenal for the healer and covers a lot of the problems the healer has defending itself. Now, I was just trying to drop MAD to SAD there, so I was fine with pumping two stats, and keeping the WIS for Monk's Belt, but I'm not sure how it might play out for your gestalt. Just something to consider.

Also, please notice the line from the Spell Compendium where it says to "Add spells concerned with healing, providing protections, removing affliction, and
providing for needs. In particular, add higher-level versions of spells the healer can already cast, such as mass restoration." (pg. 3) That makes a healer so much more powerful.
As far as gameplay tips go:
Close wounds is an amazing spell for preventing that extra bit of damage prevention to keep a party member alive/stop a save against massive damage. Note that in the Miniatures Handbook, it was a 3rd level spell, but in Spell compendium, it's second level.
Status can help keep track of NPCs if they're prone to wandering into danger, or the rest of the party if they often split up to search for clues. Greater status adds the ability to cast cure spells through the link, so you can still save someone that was just swallowed whole by the kraken, etc.

the Mastery of Night and Day feat is nice too--free maximize on healing spells.

sorry I can't help much with Battle Dancer, I don't really have much experience with it.

[CyberThread]

Can a apostle of peace do subdual damage?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can a apostle of peace do subdual damage?

He can't multiclass or take prestige classes anyway.

[CyberThread]

oh phooey...so have to stay gesalted as that combo huh?

Better break out that BOEF, for interesting feats :P

[IronFist]

Use Planar Touchstone to get a domain.
Take Snap Kick.

[Chronos]

Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment only gives you the domain granted power, not the spells.

[Shining Wrath]

Get Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace, and use your unarmed strikes to deal nonlethal damage against living opponents. You can get around the part of Vow of Nonviolence that penalizes your party for finishing off opponents by having a party member who has the authority to give captured opponents a 'fair trial' and execution on the spot, similar to Judge Dredd. Executing a criminal who's found guilty and sentenced to death is not the same as killing a helpless or defenseless foe.



I'm actually playing a healer right now in a campaign, and I just wanted to throw in a word of caution re: dynamic priest. Given the terrible restrictions on armor and shields, the best way I found to defend my healer was a Monk's Belt; the WIS-->AC is phenomenal for the healer and covers a lot of the problems the healer has defending itself. Now, I was just trying to drop MAD to SAD there, so I was fine with pumping two stats, and keeping the WIS for Monk's Belt, but I'm not sure how it might play out for your gestalt. Just something to consider.

Also, please notice the line from the Spell Compendium where it says to "Add spells concerned with healing, providing protections, removing affliction, and
providing for needs. In particular, add higher-level versions of spells the healer can already cast, such as mass restoration." (pg. 3) That makes a healer so much more powerful.
As far as gameplay tips go:
Close wounds is an amazing spell for preventing that extra bit of damage prevention to keep a party member alive/stop a save against massive damage. Note that in the Miniatures Handbook, it was a 3rd level spell, but in Spell compendium, it's second level.
Status can help keep track of NPCs if they're prone to wandering into danger, or the rest of the party if they often split up to search for clues. Greater status adds the ability to cast cure spells through the link, so you can still save someone that was just swallowed whole by the kraken, etc.

the Mastery of Night and Day feat is nice too--free maximize on healing spells.

sorry I can't help much with Battle Dancer, I don't really have much experience with it.



Use Planar Touchstone to get a domain.
Take Snap Kick.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

I don't know if anyone else will have the authority to pass sentence - this is an Eberron campaign, so depending on where you are, the laws can change a lot. And in the Mournland, NO ONE is in charge; and in the Demon Wastes, the entities in charge are not going to make the decisions I might want.

I'll consider Snap Kick. I am thinking two-weapon fighting (with unarmed combat) is how I'll go for the Battle Dancer, so I'll have to crunch the math and see whether or not -2 to all attacks is a good trade for one more attack. Best guess: low AC foes, yes, high AC foes, no. Burn a feat for situational advantage against mooks? Hmmm.

Mastery of Day and Night does look awesome-sauce. It's a two feat chain since I have to take Maximize Spell first, plus two skill points I didn't plan on putting into K(planes), plus one more into Spellcraft (I was going to stop at 5) - but then, every heal maximized? YES PLEASE.

Oh, and because of the Battle Dancer's special abilities, I was looking at (ECL 12) an AC of ~30 without Monk's belt.
CHR: +5
DEX: +6
BD : +1 at 5, +1 at level 10 = +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +2
Bracers of Armor +3

So Monk's belt giving me another +5 would of course be cool beans.

[Vaz]

Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment only gives you the domain granted power, not the spells.

It gives you the ability to cast them as Higher Order uses. Picking up Personal Touchstone doubles that (to 6, IIRC?).

The problem is the length of time it takes to recharge (1-4 weeks) it's not a viable option unless you can reliably make DC25 Int checks (not Knowledge; Int checks).

Pearls of Power, however, could possibly get around that limitation.

[Shining Wrath]

It gives you the ability to cast them as Higher Order uses. Picking up Personal Touchstone doubles that (to 6, IIRC?).

The problem is the length of time it takes to recharge (1-4 weeks) it's not a viable option unless you can reliably make DC25 Int checks (not Knowledge; Int checks).

Pearls of Power, however, could possibly get around that limitation.

INT is my dump stat; not so helpful, but thanks anyway.

[animewatcha]

Skarn monk has an alternate sub level at 5th that would allow them to keep the wis to ac even in armor, shield, load, etc ( but they still couldn't flurry and whatever else in armor ). You could ask if you can do a similar deal with your DM with the battle dancer, cha to ac while it in light non-metal armor/no-shield ( healer restriction ).

Or, you could do the heretic of the faith thing ( keep spells and supernatural abilities despite violation of code of conduct, but alignment restriction still applies) and look into the above. To get the metal armor and shield, that is.

[Shining Wrath]

Skarn monk has an alternate sub level at 5th that would allow them to keep the wis to ac even in armor, shield, load, etc ( but they still couldn't flurry and whatever else in armor ). You could ask if you can do a similar deal with your DM with the battle dancer, cha to ac while it in light non-metal armor/no-shield ( healer restriction ).

Or, you could do the heretic of the faith thing ( keep spells and supernatural abilities despite violation of code of conduct, but alignment restriction still applies) and look into the above. To get the metal armor and shield, that is.

The Battle Dancer is supposed to use no armor at all. The Healer, only light non-metallic armor. I think I'd have to buy the DM pizza for a year to get metal armor on a BD/HLR gestalt. :smallsmile: